He is mad that I attacked the Satmar cult.
Tag Mehir.. I have a feeling this post is against me..The post is about me.
Oy vey .
Listen, I, myself, am begging you not to leave this forum. You are a very educated and knowledgeable Jewish person and you are an asset to JTF. That is another reason why I had to intervene in the last thread. You and Muman, Bachamal are very well versed in Torah and Judaic Law and you have a major influence. What you guys say will shake people up, much more than any of us, as you have so much knowledge of the religion. That is why, when I saw some comments I felt could hurt the feelings of some non-Jews I had to step in. DO you realize how important people like you are here? But, do you also realize how important it is that we reconcile Gentiles and have them support Israel and the Jewish people which are being attacked right now by Islamic and Communist/Socialist Fascists?
You have a short fuse , just like myself. We probably are closely related.. LOL.. I am asking you Tag-Mehir to try to understand the situation we are facing. Take a few moments to breathe, relax and think.
I'd say more but I don't want to get myself into trouble. Maybe it is best Chaim chimes in when he has time.
Tag-Mehir you are a brother to me and the last thing we must do is destroy this relationship. We are family and if the family makes war with one another, then the enemies have less work to do.
I threatened to leave myself earlier because I felt upset, but now I see I also made some mistakes, even though I had good intentions. Let us try to work these things out. If we keep fighting ourselves we will eventually find ourselves all alone in this world.
If you want to hate me, fine do so. But I would hope you can contribute your knowledge about Judaism and as well as demonstrate your vigilance and pride of being a Jew.. I want you to be vigilant, proud and do all you can to show the glory of Israel and the Jewish people. But, you need to take a few moments to think about a few things. If we promote ourselves at the expense of other people, rather than win the support and respect of other people, all we will do is make more enemies which will go against the goal of helping to empower the nation of Israel and the Jewish people.
I live around a lot of gentiles and grew up with them. I understand how they think and I also know ways to win their support.
Don't think for one moment that I think we should ever cave in or degrade our own religion or culture. Never! On the contrary, anybody who wants to make war with the Jewish people and Israel should be crushed!
But, remember, let us not attack our friends, only our enemies!
The post is about me.
Tag Mehir.. I have a feeling this post is against me..
Oy vey .
Listen, I, myself, am begging you not to leave this forum. You are a very educated and knowledgeable Jewish person and you are an asset to JTF. That is another reason why I had to intervene in the last thread. You and Muman, Bachamal are very well versed in Torah and Judaic Law and you have a major influence. What you guys say will shake people up, much more than any of us, as you have so much knowledge of the religion. That is why, when I saw some comments I felt could hurt the feelings of some non-Jews I had to step in. DO you realize how important people like you are here? But, do you also realize how important it is that we reconcile Gentiles and have them support Israel and the Jewish people which are being attacked right now by Islamic and Communist/Socialist Fascists?
You have a short fuse , just like myself. We probably are closely related.. LOL.. I am asking you Tag-Mehir to try to understand the situation we are facing. Take a few moments to breathe, relax and think.
I'd say more but I don't want to get myself into trouble. Maybe it is best Chaim chimes in when he has time.
Tag-Mehir you are a brother to me and the last thing we must do is destroy this relationship. We are family and if the family makes war with one another, then the enemies have less work to do.
I threatened to leave myself earlier because I felt upset, but now I see I also made some mistakes, even though I had good intentions. Let us try to work these things out. If we keep fighting ourselves we will eventually find ourselves all alone in this world.
If you want to hate me, fine do so. But I would hope you can contribute your knowledge about Judaism and as well as demonstrate your vigilance and pride of being a Jew.. I want you to be vigilant, proud and do all you can to show the glory of Israel and the Jewish people. But, you need to take a few moments to think about a few things. If we promote ourselves at the expense of other people, rather than win the support and respect of other people, all we will do is make more enemies which will go against the goal of helping to empower the nation of Israel and the Jewish people.
I live around a lot of gentiles and grew up with them. I understand how they think and I also know ways to win their support.
Don't think for one moment that I think we should ever cave in or degrade our own religion or culture. Never! On the contrary, anybody who wants to make war with the Jewish people and Israel should be crushed!
But, remember, let us not attack our friends, only our enemies!
Oh ok.. I was getting worried for a moment.. Nothing like guilt..
Oh yeah, sorry ChaimFan that Tag has beef with you..
Muman.. You say we are not allowed to curse another Jew, does that include Diane Feinstein and Michael Bloomberg? :laugh: :-\
Oh ok.. I was getting worried for a moment.. Nothing like guilt..
Oh yeah, sorry ChaimFan that Tag has beef with you..
Muman.. You say we are not allowed to curse another Jew, does that include Diane Feinstein and Michael Bloomberg? :laugh: :-\
Parashas Kedoshim (5763)
This sedra, as Rashi points out (verse 19:2), contains some of the most basic teachings of Judaism. One is that one must not take advantage of someone who is in a weaker or one-down position from you. An example of that is given in the following verse.
Vayikra 19:14
“You shall not curse a deaf person and before a blind person you shall not place a stumbling block. You shall fear your G-d. I am Hashem.”
RASHI
You shall not curse a deaf person: RASHI: I only know [this prohibition] regarding a deaf person, from where do I know [the prohibition] includes everyone. (i.e it is forbidden to curse anyone).Another verse says (Exodus 22:27) ‘[A prince] among your people you shall not curse.’ (the term ‘among your people’ includes the prohibition against cursing anyone). If so, then why must the Torah specify a deaf person? [The reason is that ] Just as a deaf a person is alive so too anyone who is alive, this excludes the prohibition of cursing a dead person, who is not alive
WHAT IS RASHI SAYING?
Rashi employs the Talmudic drash which derives from this verse the halacha that the prohibition of cursing a person is applicable only when the person who is cursed is living. This means that while cursing a person who is dead is certainly not good behavior, it is not prohibited in this verse. The drash explains why a deaf person is singled out in this verse, if cursing anyone is forbidden. The reason that the Torah mentions a deaf person explicitly is to use it as a representative of a category – the category of living people. Just as a deaf person is alive and it is forbidden to curse him, so too any person who is alive it is forbidden to curse. But it is not forbidden to curse a person who is not alive, who is dead.
UNDERSTANDING THE DRASH
The drash emphasizes the point that the deaf person is alive, but isn’t that strange ? Most people we are prohibited from harming are alive! Why single out the deaf person ?
An Answer: The defining characteristic of a deaf person is that he is deaf. If one where to ask: What do you know about Yaakov? The first answer someone would give is that he is deaf (if in fact he were deaf). But if Yaakov were also dead, then the first answer would be “He is dead.” That is more defining than the fact that he was deaf when he was alive.
A DEEPER QUESTION
But why do I need to be told this? Isn’t it obvious that cursing a deaf person is basically a crime if the person is alive and could suffer from being cursed, even if he, himself, cannot hear the curse ?
The answer is that there is a case where cursing a dead person is a crime. One may not curse one’s parents even if they are dead. So I might have thought that since it is prohibited to curse parents even if they are not alive, so too it would be prohibited to curse anyone even after they died. But the Torah differentiates between the two cases, one is forbidden (parents) and on is not forbidden (any other person).
Can you think why?
Your Answer:
A DEEPER UNDERSTANDING
An Answer: I would say that cursing anyone is forbidden because you do him harm. Therefore, only when the object of your curse can suffer harm, are you forbidden to curse him. That would be only while he is alive. But the reason for not cursing parents is not the harm that could come to them; rather the reason is that one must not be ungrateful to one’s parents who gave him life. That reason exists even after one’s parents have died. He must still be respectful of them and grateful to them for the life they have given him. It is for this reason that one must never curse one’s parents, alive or dead. But this is not the rationale for not cursing another person. The rational exists only when the other person is alive.
Shabbat Shalom
Avigdor Bonchek
Oh ok.. I was getting worried for a moment.. Nothing like guilt..Where did you get Chaimfan from?
Oh yeah, sorry ChaimFan that Tag has beef with you..
Muman.. You say we are not allowed to curse another Jew, does that include Diane Feinstein and Michael Bloomberg? :laugh: :-\
I must admit... I greatly miss-judged you... you definitely have the forum's best interest at heart. Yes.. there are people who have short fuses here... and say things they wish they hadn't.. I think we should always give these members a second chance.
Technically yes, unless we consider their crimes to rise to the level of Heretic or Informer, then we must curse them...Muman, I am sorry.. Maybe, I am committing a sin or will looked down by you, but I feel people like Feinstein, Bloomberg are traitors to the Jewish and American people and put us at great risk of danger and annihilation. I also have a hard time overlooking criminal things done by Jewish politicians any more than a non-Jew, simply because they are Jewish. But, perhaps, that is a topic for discussion at another time. I will certainly have to read your post soon.
But then it could be argued are they really informers and heretics? So it is best to err on the side of avoiding cursing a Jew...
I have reposted information on this in the past... Let me see if I can find the sources for this... Of course it is based on the pasuk "Do not curse the deaf"....
Here is a good post on the topic : http://jtf.org/forum/index.php/topic,41672.msg412589.html#msg412589
As much as I hate Feinstein... Boxer is actually the worse of the two.Oy vey! How much worse can you get?? Feinstein is the architect of the Assault Weapon Ban Bill that will be adopted by the Kenyan dictator Hussein Obama and will be used to disarm Jews and Americans and open up the possibility for another Shoah. Hell hath no fury!
No worries Brian.. We all are sometimes too quick to judge or speak and I have been plenty guilty here. Considering how small of a group is the Jewish people and considering the threats we face, coming together and working through our disagreements is more important now than ever. Every Jewish soul is precious to Hashem.
Muman, I am sorry.. Maybe, I am committing a sin or will looked down by you, but I feel people like Feinstein, Bloomberg are traitors to the Jewish and American people and put us at great risk of danger and annihilation. I also have a hard time overlooking criminal things done by Jewish politicians any more than a non-Jew, simply because they are Jewish. But, perhaps, that is a topic for discussion at another time. I will certainly have to read your post soon.
Let me say, I think we should avoid at all costs insulting or cursing another Jew.. However, there are extremes and these extremes have gone way past the acceptable threshold by these people, IMO.
Oy vey! How much worse can you get?? Feinstein is the architect of the Assault Weapons Bill that will be adopted by the Kenyan dictator Hussein Obama and will be used to disarm Jews and Americans and open up the possibility for another Shoah. Hell hath no fury!
Where did you get Chaimfan from?
Tag, I'm not sure what to tell you here. I know this post is about me but I'm not sure what you wanted me to say. I posted a story about a pedophile who happens to be Jewish, whose victims were also all Jews, and you went ballistic. I'm sorry that you feel that you have to leave but I didn't say anything wrong. This is between you and G-d now. I wish you wouldn't leave but this is your decision and not mine.
I think some of the religious Jews here like Tag are very sensitive when they see that an entire group of Jews are criticized by a non-Jew. Likewise, if I were to post that the Roman Catholic Church in America is rotten to the core because there were priests that molested boys, I can see how it might offend the Catholic members here.The evidence shows that the entirety of Satmar leadership is evil. You could substitute Lutheranism or any other such group. They certainly showed evil behavior in this case.
Now it's one thing to say that pedophilia is disgusting and wrong and that the offenders (regardless of their religion) should be punished to the fullest extent of the law. I think it's also fine to point out that the Satmar Rebbe who encouraged his followers to remain in Hungary while he escaped on the Kastner train, has a lot to answer for.
But remember you guys, we're a forum of Jews and non-Jews. So please be careful what you post about an entire religious group that's not your own.
The evidence shows that the entirety of Satmar leadership is evil. You could substitute Lutheranism or any other such group. They certainly showed evil behavior in this case.My wife and kids are Lutherans, and they have no idea of the evil they are attached to!
My advice to Satmar that are not evil zombies is to leave this cult. Chaim would agree with this.
The evidence shows that the entirety of Satmar leadership is evil. You could substitute Lutheranism or any other such group. They certainly showed evil behavior in this case.
My advice to Satmar that are not evil zombies is to leave this cult. Chaim would agree with this.
You see, that's the thing. I'm not a Lutheran or any other type of Christian. I'm a Jew. So I don't think it would be my place to say anything about Lutheranism in general (except for Martin Luther being a vicious anti-Semite).Agreed, I utterly hate Martin Luther and do not hesitate to tell anybody, even Lutherans my feelings about him. Do I hate Lutherans, no! But, many are not aware that Martin Luther was the actual father of the Holocaust and was the main inspiration of Adolf Hitler. Luther devastated the Jewish community in Germany and brought so much hardships to the Jewish people. Sometimes you do just have to be open about a few things, even if they do offend.
excerpt from above link
Luther was the most widely read author of his generation, and he acquired the status of a prophet within Germany.[208] According to the prevailing view among historians,[209] his anti-Jewish rhetoric contributed significantly to the development of antisemitism in Germany,[210] and in the 1930s and 1940s provided an "ideal underpinning" for the National Socialists' attacks on Jews.[211] Reinhold Lewin writes that "whoever wrote against the Jews for whatever reason believed he had the right to justify himself by triumphantly referring to Luther." According to Michael, just about every anti-Jewish book printed in the Third Reich contained references to and quotations from Luther. Heinrich Himmler wrote admiringly of his writings and sermons on the Jews in 1940.[212] The city of Nuremberg presented a first edition of On the Jews and their Lies to Julius Streicher, editor of the Nazi newspaper Der Stürmer, on his birthday in 1937; the newspaper described it as the most radically anti-Semitic tract ever published.[213
excerpt from above link
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Chamberlain’s claim is that in order to preserve its eternal existence, the Jew must use the resources of the populations in which he lives, while depleting their sources of vitality. Another argument, in line with Wagner’s claim in his Judaism in Music, is that the Jew is inherently endowed with a lack of creative imagination and limited production capability; therefore his resources are directed to undermining the foundations of the master race. Based on these arguments, Hitler dubbed Chamberlain “the prophet of the Third Reich.”
Wagner Fest
Chamberlain was not only an ideological anti-Semite whose writings helped consolidate Nazi ideology, but also Richard Wagner’s son-in-law; Wagner’s daughter, Eva, married Chamberlain in 1908.
In 1882, after attending the festival in Bayreuth, Chamberlain corresponded with Cosima via letters and, later, became an enthusiastic admirer of Wagner and his anti-Semitic writings. It was not long before Chamberlain produced a biography of Wagner that interprets and preserves Wagner’s anti-Semitic doctrine.
Chamberlain’s works tailored the national atmosphere spreading throughout Germany in 1914 and after.
When the Wagner Festival was held in 1924 in post-WWI Bayreuth, the swastika was already raised (in the presence of General Erich Ludendorff, the brain behind the Beerhouse Putsch) above the impressive opera building that was founded to glorify the name and legacy of Wagner.
To sum up: While Wagner did not directly cause Hitler’s anti-Semitism, it is undoubted that his social circles, that of Liszt, his wife Cosima, his son-in-law Chamberlain and his acquaintance Gobineau, were important and influential members in the new, “scientific” anti-Semitism of the 19th century, which directly influenced Hitler and the Nazis. What’s more, it is clear that Wagner was not merely a passive recipient of their theories, but actively added to them in his own writings, independently of their work.
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I view Satmarism as the Jewish equivalent of Lutheranism. Are all members evil of these "religions" evil? No, but certainly the leadership (then and now) and the philosophy behind it is and both are drenched in Jewish blood. I have nothing against members of both that do not know any better, but they should leave these evil cults.
I view Satmarism as the Jewish equivalent of Lutheranism. Are all members of these "religions" evil? No, but certainly the leadership (then and now) and the philosophy behind them are and both are drenched in Jewish blood. I have nothing against members of both that do not know any better, but they should leave these evil cults.
Not that it will do anything but I reported this post to the moderator.... You are such an imbecile quite often..
Master of the Universe, I hereby forgive anyone who angered or antagonized me or who sinned against me – whether against my body, my property, my honor or against anything of mine; whether he did so accidentally, willfully, carelessly, or purposely; whether through speech, deed, thought, or notion; whether in this transmigration or another transmigration – I forgive every Jew. May no man be punished because of me.
This is in regards to a previous post about cursing others and telling a member that he could not understand because he is not Jewish.
I post this just to give an example. This is from the bedtime Shema:
So it points the important of forgiveness. Not to say to be pushovers but within reasonable limits- forgive each other, love one another.
http://halakhah.com/berakoth/berakoth_17.html
Raba on concluding his prayer added the following: My God, before I was formed I was not worthy [to be formed], and now that I have been formed I am as if I had not been formed. I am dust in my lifetime, all the more in my death. Behold I am before Thee like a vessel full of shame and confusion. May it be Thy will, O Lord my God, that I sin no more, and the sins I have committed before Thee wipe out in Thy great mercies, but not through evil chastisements and diseases! This was the confession of R. Hamnuna Zuti on the Day of Atonement.4
Mar the son of Rabina on concluding his prayer added the following: My God, keep my tongue from evil and my lips from speaking guile. May my soul be silent to them that curse me and may my soul be as the dust to all. Open Thou my heart in Thy law, and may my soul pursue Thy commandments, and deliver me from evil hap, from the evil impulse and from an evil woman and from all evils that threaten to come upon the world. As for all that design evil against me, speedily annul their counsel and frustrate their designs!5 May the words of my mouth and the meditation of my heart be acceptable before Thee, O Lord, my rock and my redeemer!6
When R. Shesheth kept a fast, on concluding his prayer he added the following: Sovereign of the Universe, Thou knowest full well that in the time when the Temple was standing, if a man sinned he used to bring a sacrifice, and though all that was offered of it was its fat and blood, atonement was made for him therewith. Now I have kept a fast and my fat and blood have diminished. May it be Thy will to account my fat and blood which have been diminished as if I had offered them before Thee on the altar, and do Thou favour me.7
Thank you for adding that Muman.
And it is based on these prayers that I feel uncomfortable with cursing others. I know some people are evil, the erev rav. But I will leave them to Hashem to be the judge of them. I just don't like hearing Jews cursing each other. But I know that we get angry at the evildoers, the leftists who cause more trouble to the world. I know the emotions we feel so when people curse others, I would rather stay out of it.
"Shmuel (Sh-moo-ail) the Small said, 'At your enemy's fall do not rejoice, and when he stumbles let your heart not be joyous, lest the L-rd see and be displeased and turn back His anger from him [to you]' (Proverbs 24:17-18)."
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I heard R. Zev Leff, noted scholar and lecturer of Moshav Matisyahu, Israel (Rabbileff.net), adds a valuable twist to this. Not everyone can quote a verse in Proverbs. Quoting it implies it is something I live up to and identify with. Unfortunately, we all learn many things which we accept and admire intellectually, but which cannot be said to be a part of us. We should always speak gently, we should pray with fervor, we should see ourselves as constantly standing before G-d. Might even be a tad hypocritical for us to go about pontificating about such things. Shmuel the Small, however, (and as the Jerusalem Talmud (Sotah 9:13) writes, his "smallness" was not a physical shortcoming; his humility led him to behave with "smallness") was one who thoroughly lived the verse in Proverbs, so much so that Solomon's statement was his as well -- one he could state as an expression of his own essence.
R. Leff continued that this is evidenced in another incident which involved Shmuel. The Talmud records that it was Shmuel who, at the behest of the Sages, inserted into the daily Shemoneh Esrai prayer a supplication asking for the destruction of heretics (Brachos 28b). Why was he chosen for the task -- and did he rise to it? Precisely because he was one who didn't really want it. Since Shmuel took no pleasure in the downfall of Israel's enemies -- other than that it was a necessary step in the restoration of G-d's Throne, he could author a prayer asking G-d for just that. When he taught us to beseech that G-d "uproot, smash, cast down, and humble the wanton sinners speedily in our days," he did not have destruction and retribution in mind. His sole interest was that the honor of G-d's sacred Name be restored, and that those who will never recognize G-d through His benevolence will know it through His justice.
I read the thread about the Satmar Rebbe being convicted of pedophilia/rape. I can understand why Tag-Mehir is so pissed off. ChaimFan, I do respect you and your support and zeal. But now I am going to reverse myself a little, just as Jews must show sensitivity to offending non-Jews, we must also understand that non-Jews must be cautious not to offend JEwish members, even if they have good intentions. I know your intentions were good, but you have to realize the sensitive issue here about making war with a group of Orthodox Jews (even if they hate Israel and tried covering up what they did). Don't forget many of the people who tried covering up for this bad rabbi were probably also trying to hide the shame/disgrace from their community which will be amplified by the media a 100 times.
This is in regards to a previous post about cursing others and telling a member that he could not understand because he is not Jewish.
I post this just to give an example. This is from the bedtime Shema:
So it points the important of forgiveness. Not to say to be pushovers but within reasonable limits- forgive each other, love one another.
Let's get something clear here, nechemia weberman is not the satmar rebbe and is not even a rabbi. He wasn't a licensed therapist either. No credentials at all except lifetime prisoner now.
I can't help but feel that if CF was at fault here then so was I. But other than the nature of the thread and some things each of us said being interpreted as inflammatory (and therefore maybe not necessary to post here? I don't know) I honestly don't find fault with anything I said here. Maybe I'm misguided.
Not that it will do anything but I reported this post to the moderator.... You are such an imbecile quite often..Good luck with that.
Jews like the Satmar leadership enabled the Holocaust by convincing Jewry not to flee to the Holy Land or fight back against their murderers. They also encourage Nazi hatred against their fellow Jews. Just as bad in my eyes.
Think I am going to have to agree with Muman on this one.. You cannot compare the Satmar Jews to the evils done by Martin Luther and his followers which in the end resulted in the extermination of half the Jewish race. I can thank Martin Luther for the murder of all my relatives in my grandmothers village in Belarus who were forced to dig their own graves before being shot to death with their babies crying in their arms. The Satmar have their flaws, but they are not entirely worse than other religious groups. They are still Jewish brothers, some who have lost their way, and except for the NK goons, I know many of them are good people.
Except I think its not halachically required to say that passage and regardless of that, there are definitely cases which do not apply at all to that statement! One of which would be abuse but really anything where the person who wronged you never did teshuvah. There is no need to forgive without repentance.
Let's get something clear here, nechemia weberman is not the satmar rebbe and is not even a rabbi. He wasn't a licensed therapist either. No credentials at all except lifetime prisoner now.
I can't help but feel that if CF was at fault here then so was I. But other than the nature of the thread and some things each of us said being interpreted as inflammatory (and therefore maybe not necessary to post here? I don't know) I honestly don't find fault with anything I said there. Maybe I'm misguided.
Why is it that so many are piling on CF but not rebuking me? Quite positively in my mind, the response to me has been logical debate and I appreciate that. But why has the response to CF been more akin to an attack against him?
Now to CF, you said in this thread people should leave the satmar sect. But there are many sociological factors which make that almost impossible to do, for the vast majority of members. Furthermore it has many positive qualities and certain aspects are good old fashioned Judaism, that even if a member took issue with the leadership or in rare cases is bothered by the antizionist stance, it is not necessarily reason to just altogether "leave" and adopt a different culture. This is very complicated.
Thanks for the information KWRBT.. I don't think you did anything wrong at all.. Everything you said sounded fine.. I think you have as much right as anyone to condemn the evil actions committed by this man and to criticize the fallacies of the Satmars. Nonetheless, I think there was certain extreme statements said, not by you, but by CF, that were a bit over-the-top and were a bit insensitive.Chaim said that I was over the top to call Satmarism a murderous Nazi death cult and he was right. I will not say that any more.
Jews like the Satmar leadership enabled the Holocaust by convincing Jewry not to flee to the Holy Land or fight back against their murderers. They also encourage Nazi hatred against their fellow Jews. Just as bad in my eyes.
Chaim said that I was over the top to call Satmarism a murderous Nazi death cult and he was right. I will not say that any more.
As for comparing it to Lutheranism, I do believe I gave a legitimate explanation.
World War II period
Many Satmar Hasidim were dispersed or murdered during World War II and the Holocaust, though the group's destruction was less complete than many other Hasidic dynasties. Although widespread shootings and deportations had already killed 70,000 Jews under Ferenc Szálasi's Arrow Cross regime, which took over power from Miklós Horthy's and allied with Nazi Germany, the first deportations of Jews and death marches to the extermination camps in Hungary did not begin until the spring of 1944, when 436,000 Jews were rounded up by the Hungarian authorities and German SS Troops in 56 days from May through July and deported to Auschwitz.
In June 1944, Teitelbaum became one of a group of some 1,685 people whose release from Hungary was negotiated with Adolf Eichmann by the Zionist leader Rudolf Kastner, who had negotiated the escape of a small group of people who were mostly Zionists but also included a number of prominent rabbis and wealthy Jews who, it is claimed, paid an exorbitant fee to be on the rescue train, nicknamed "Noah's ark". Teitelbaum and his wife were passengers on the Kastner train bound for Switzerland, which was re-routed to Bergen-Belsen for six months before being allowed to continue to the Swiss border as originally planned.
7 December 1944 (21st of Kislev 5705 in the Jewish calendar,) the day that Teitelbaum crossed the border into Switzerland and was saved from the Nazis, is celebrated to this day as a joyful holiday among Satmar Hasidim worldwide. After the war, Rabbi Teitelbaum spent time in the Displaced Persons camp of Feldafing, the first camp exclusively for Jewish ex-prisoners.[citation needed]
Oh, I'm sorry I was not talking about the case of the Satmar abuse. That counselor is just vile. I don't know how abuse would ever be forgivable.
I was talking about other situations.
No need to forgive without repentance. Yes but it doesn't hurt in some minor situations. For example.... at my shul I signed up for a ladies event. I opted to pay at the door, and I gave the lady in charge my payment in her hand. A few weeks later she wrote me a message to thank me for participating and that they were still waiting for payment!!
Wow I was very upset for a few minutes! How could they have ignored my payment. But I didn't feel like fighting because it was my only shul. So I remembered the bedtime Shema. Yes I paid again. In fact I considered my first payment a donation. Maybe one day the lady will realize her mistake and may say she is sorry. Who knows. But I forgave her completely for it.
That's fair. And very good of you. I guess I had in mind when someone wrongs someone else in a really major way rather than minor personal affronts (not to minimize what happened to you) where I think we should overlook the mistakes of well intentioned people.Not sure if you are referring to me, but Chaim did tell me to tone my language down and I will abide by that.
I provided the whole entire explanation of what he and Kastner did. The deal that the Nazis had going with them is that they would be permitted to leave if they could convince their followers to go to the death camps without a fight. Chaim has explained this many times. I will not ever celebrate the Kastner Train being able to flee and nobody should. The individuals on it murdered hundreds of thousands of their fellow Jews so that they could save their own hides.
The majority of Hungarian Jews in the 1940s were Satmars. Since I am angry about their being murdered (in large part by their own "rabbi" and Kastner), obviously I don't hate all Satmar members. These predators took advantage of their trust and faithfulness and obedience and that is why they are burning in hell as we speak.
Blaming the Satmars for the actions of their one Rabbi is like blaming Christians for the action of Jeremiah Wright (who calls himself a Christian pastor).. Yes, there are other reasons to dislike the actions of the Satmars, but the massacre of the Satmars in the Shoah and the cowardliness of the Rabbi is not that reason!That is basically exactly what I said. Again I will invoke the Lutheran analogy. No, I don't hate all Lutherans--a lot of them aren't really aware of what their fuhrer-like founder did, but it is still a satanic Nazi sect of Christianity and they should leave it if they do not agree with their founder.
That is basically exactly what I said. Again I will invoke the Lutheran analogy. No, I don't hate all Lutherans--a lot of them aren't really aware of what their fuhrer-like founder did, but it is still a satanic Nazi sect of Christianity and they should leave it if they do not agree with their founder.
Luther's other major works on the Jews were his 60,000-word treatise Von den Juden und Ihren Lügen (On the Jews and Their Lies), and Vom Schem Hamphoras und vom Geschlecht Christi (On the Holy Name and the Lineage of Christ), both published in 1543, three years before his death.[204] Luther argued that the Jews were no longer the chosen people but "the devil's people": he referred to them with violent, vile language.[205][206] Luther advocated setting synagogues on fire, destroying Jewish prayerbooks, forbidding rabbis from preaching, seizing Jews' property and money, and smashing up their homes, so that these "poisonous envenomed worms" would be forced into labour or expelled "for all time".[207] In Robert Michael's view, Luther's words "We are at fault in not slaying them" amounted to a sanction for murder.[208] Luther's "recommendations" for how to treat the Jews was a clear reference to the "sharp mercy" of Deuteronomy 13, the punishments prescribed by Moses for those who led others to "false gods".[209]
Luther spoke out against the Jews in Saxony, Brandenburg, and Silesia.[210] Josel of Rosheim, the Jewish spokesman who tried to help the Jews of Saxony in 1537, later blamed their plight on "that priest whose name was Martin Luther—may his body and soul be bound up in hell!—who wrote and issued many heretical books in which he said that whoever would help the Jews was doomed to perdition."[211] Josel asked the city of Strasbourg to forbid the sale of Luther's anti-Jewish works: they refused initially, but relented when a Lutheran pastor in Hochfelden used a sermon to urge his parishioners to murder Jews.[210] Luther's influence persisted after his death. Throughout the 1580s, riots led to the expulsion of Jews from several German Lutheran states.[212]
On 17 December 1941, seven Protestant regional church confederations issued a statement agreeing with the policy of forcing Jews to wear the yellow badge, "since after his bitter experience Luther had already suggested preventive measures against the Jews and their expulsion from German territory." According to Daniel Goldhagen, Bishop Martin Sasse, a leading Protestant churchman, published a compendium of Luther's writings shortly after Kristallnacht, for which Diarmaid MacCulloch, Professor of the History of the Church in the University of Oxford argued that Luther's writing was a "blueprint."[220] Sasse applauded the burning of the synagogues and the coincidence of the day, writing in the introduction, "On 10 November 1938, on Luther's birthday, the synagogues are burning in Germany." The German people, he urged, ought to heed these words "of the greatest antisemite of his time, the warner of his people against the Jews."[221] According to Professor Dick Geary, the Nazis won a larger share of the vote in Protestant than in Catholic areas of Germany in elections of 1928 to November 1932.[222]
That is basically exactly what I said. Again I will invoke the Lutheran analogy. No, I don't hate all Lutherans--a lot of them aren't really aware of what their fuhrer-like founder did, but it is still a satanic Nazi sect of Christianity and they should leave it if they do not agree with their founder.It's not quite what you said, as you kept using the actions of the Satmar Rabbi as an example of why the Satmars are evil. With respect to the rogue Satmar Rabbi, you should have saved your condemnation for the Rabbi, not the Jewish people as a whole who were massacred.
It's not quite what you said, as you kept using the actions of the Satmar Rabbi as an example of why the Satmars are evil. With respect to the rogue Satmar Rabbi, you should have saved your condemnation for the Rabbi, not the Jewish people as a whole who were massacred.These heartrending stories took place because the leaders of this cult decided that their members were better off dead than in Eretz Yisrael or otherwise making some other attempt to flee or fight back against the Nazis. By the time the Final Solution came to Hungary, the Reich and its Nazi puppet regime in Hungary were heavily outnumbered and almost defeated. This did not have to happen. The actions of the Satmar "rabbi" and his friend Kastner have been the same as the actions of every single Satmar official throughout history. They are just the worst example of it. I don't feel sympathy for Teitelbaum because he was a coward and wanted to save his hide. His obligation was to save the lives of his fellow Jews and he deliberately gave them over to the Nazis so that he and his family could live. He is the worst of the worst of the worst of humanity in my opinion. Nothing will change that, so you can deal with it or not.
If you want to talk about their ideology that is fine. But I would appreciate if you would stop using the Satmar Rabbi as an example of why they are bad. Instead, you should feel sorrow for all those devoted Jews (who were Satmars) who were exterminated by the Nazis (many who were Lutheran).
Let's get things straight here. If your beef with the Satmar sect is that they are against Israel then fine.. But stop making references to the cowardly Rabbi. Many Jewish people did whatever they could to escape the horrors of the Holocaust and it is a very poor and in my opinion, unethical, example.
You probably haven't heard all the stories about Satmar Jews in the camp going hungry one night so they could feed their chidlren who would not survive. There probably was a lot of those Satmar Jews in the Camps who committed just as noble acts of bravery and honor that would counter the cowardly act of one man of their sect.
But Satmar Ideology does not promote killing Jews (or Christians for that matter) in order to make the world a better place. That is exclusively Lutheran ideology. It is incompatible to compare Satmar as a religious organization (albeit anti-zionist to the extreme) which may according to Chaim be responsible for some Chassidim being sacrificed, to an ideology based on hatred of the others.
I severely doubt you can understand what I am trying to explain. But Satmar does not teach that killing others is OK or a religious duty.
Lutheranism doesn't advocate killing anyone either muman.
Martin Luther sure did advocate killing Jews. I have already posted examples of his jew hatred. Do you deny it? Do you deny that jews died as a result of his demented writings? I sure hope you dont defend that evil man and his ideology. I am not saying that this ideology is taught today. In highschool a good friend wasvraised Lutheran. He was Estonian too...
Those writings are not Lutheran doctrine. So no, Lutheranism doesn't advocate killing Jews or anyone else for that matter.
On the Jews and Their Lies
In 1543 Luther published On the Jews and Their Lies in which he says that the Jews are a "base, whoring people, that is, no people of God, and their boast of lineage, circumcision, and law must be accounted as filth."[13] They are full of the "devil's feces ... which they wallow in like swine."[14] The synagogue was a "defiled bride, yes, an incorrigible whore and an evil slut ..."[15] He argues that their synagogues and schools be set on fire, their prayer books destroyed, rabbis forbidden to preach, homes razed, and property and money confiscated. They should be shown no mercy or kindness,[16] afforded no legal protection,[17] and these "poisonous envenomed worms" should be drafted into forced labor or expelled for all time.[18] He also seems to advocate their murder, writing "[w]e are at fault in not slaying them".[19]
The prevailing view[28] among historians is that Luther's anti-Jewish rhetoric contributed significantly to the development of antisemitism in Germany,[29] and in the 1930s and 1940s provided an ideal foundation for the Nazi Party's attacks on Jews.[30] Reinhold Lewin writes that "whoever wrote against the Jews for whatever reason believed he had the right to justify himself by triumphantly referring to Luther." According to Michael, just about every anti-Jewish book printed in the Third Reich contained references to and quotations from Luther. Diarmaid MacCulloch argues that Luther's 1543 pamphlet On the Jews and Their Lies was a "blueprint" for the Kristallnacht.[31] Shortly after the Kristallnacht, Bishop Martin Sasse, a leading Protestant churchman, published a compendium of Martin Luther's writings ; Sasse "applauded the burning of the synagogues" and the coincidence of the day, writing in the introduction, "On November 10, 1938, on Luther's birthday, the synagogues are burning in Germany." The German people, he urged, ought to heed these words "of the greatest anti-Semite of his time, the warner of his people against the Jews."[32] In 1940, Heinrich Himmler wrote admiringly of Luther's writings and sermons on the Jews.[33] The city of Nuremberg presented a first edition of On the Jews and their Lies to Julius Streicher, editor of the Nazi newspaper Der Stürmer, on his birthday in 1937; the newspaper described it as the most radically antisemitic tract ever published.[34] It was publicly exhibited in a glass case at the Nuremberg rallies and quoted in a 54-page explanation of the Aryan Law by Dr. E.H. Schulz and Dr. R. Frercks.[35] On December 17, 1941, seven Lutheran regional church confederations issued a statement agreeing with the policy of forcing Jews to wear the yellow badge, "since after his bitter experience Luther had [strongly] suggested preventive measures against the Jews and their expulsion from German territory."
"Somebody said something I didn't like, so I quit"
Well I say to this "good bye".
You see how things get twisted here? t_h_j just pops in and then assumes we are talking about the modern day followers of Lutheran Church.... I have never implied I am talking about those who follow Lutheranism... It was DBF who drew a comparison between Lutheranism and Satmarism, which is a ridiculous statement either way. No doubt those who followed the leader of the Lutheran Churches opinion of the Jews and burned our synagogues were doing their holy duty according to Martin Luther. But I am willing to look past those times, and as I said I was good friends with a Lutheran of Estonian upbringing (also a people who were nazis in WWII)...
But let us not get side-tracked and try to make this an attack on mordern day Lutherans, that is not my intention. I was just trying to explain how the ideology of some Christian sects fed the Jew hatred of the 1920-1940s...
Its not Lutheran ideology though. That's like saying being a vegetarian is a nazi ideal because hitler practiced it.
But a whole lot of modern-day Lutherans are Nazi anti-Semites and the church does still teach it:
http://roshpinaproject.com/2011/08/16/paper-at-christ-at-the-checkpoint-2010-netanyahu-has-no-jewish-blood/
http://www.elca.org/Who-We-Are/Our-Three-Expressions/Churchwide-Organization/Global-Mission/Where-We-Work/Europe-Middle-East.aspx
http://www.elcjhl.org/
http://witness.lcms.org/pages/wPage.asp?ContentID=468&IssueID=30
I heard from a couple of people Lutheranism is a dangerous cult.I don't know about that, but I have heard that the Jews do not belong in Israel. And they support Palestine. ML called Jews a pit of vipers and the Hussites Judaizers.
I heard from a couple of people Lutheranism is a dangerous cult.I don't know if Lutheranism is a sociological cult in terms of the psychological control/manipulation and isolationism that is practiced by Satmar and others, but it certainly always has and always will preach Nazi Jew-hatred in one form or another. Perhaps the Lutheran Church doesn't overtly attack all Jews today like it did throughout most of its history (though it certainly still thinks it), but it does support the Arab Nazis and denies the right of tiny Israel to survive.
But a whole lot of modern-day Lutherans are Nazi anti-Semites and the church does still teach it:
http://roshpinaproject.com/2011/08/16/paper-at-christ-at-the-checkpoint-2010-netanyahu-has-no-jewish-blood/
http://www.elca.org/Who-We-Are/Our-Three-Expressions/Churchwide-Organization/Global-Mission/Where-We-Work/Europe-Middle-East.aspx
http://www.elcjhl.org/
http://witness.lcms.org/pages/wPage.asp?ContentID=468&IssueID=30
I don't know if Lutheranism is a sociological cult in terms of the psychological control/manipulation and isolationism that is practiced by Satmar and others, but it certainly always has and always will preach Nazi Jew-hatred in one form or another. Perhaps the Lutheran Church doesn't overtly attack all Jews today like it did throughout most of its history (though it certainly still thinks it), but it does support the Arab Nazis and denies the right of tiny Israel to survive.
Do recall that half of the German Nazis, and a great many of their allies such as the Baltic and Scandinavian nations, were Lutherans. In fact, Latvia was more fanatically into the Holocaust than many of the Germans themselves.
If any Christian that is not an anti-Semite is a member of this satanic church, they should leave it immediately.
Almost entire Scandinavia embraced ML's ideas from the start, I don't know what is the number of Lutherans nowdays. His ideas and thesis were questionable, 41 from 95 were condemned. For a reason...
So at the end all 95 were condemned?
Almost entire Scandinavia embraced ML's ideas from the start, I don't know what is the number of Lutherans nowdays. His ideas and thesis were questionable, 41 from 95 were condemned. For a reason...I don't know how many of the 95 were condemned. Actually traditional Lutheranism is very similar to Catholicism even to this very day. He wasn't really trying to start a new religion, he just had some administrative differences with the RCC hierarchy here and there. In any event I don't really care about these matters--the fact is that he was a satanic Jew-hater who did much to inspire Hitler and Nazism.
I don't care what people think, but ML was a creepYou can say that again. So was the Satmar "rabbi". That was why I was comparing the two.
I don't have much time to respond, but let me say this.. The modern-day Lutheran church is one of the most Anti-Israel (and may I say Anti-Semitic) churches in the world today. They are the most devout followers of Replacement Theology which was an important part of Martin Luther's ideology. I have many Christian friends and I respect Christians greatly. Maybe, some will think I am crazy, but I actually respected the previous Pope John Paul, as well I respect pastors like John Hagee and other evangelicals who support Israel. I grew up around Christians and I learned the churches that were pro-Israel and anti-Israel and a lot of it had to do with their denomination, although there was a few churches that had their own individual views that diverted from their denomination.I know. I gave Muman a bunch of links as to how modern Lutheranism is still Nazi to the core. Did you see them?
I will say I have no Lutheran friends. I've called many churces in the past to learn about their ideologies and views of Jewish people and Israel. Most Lutheran priests I have talked to have expressed vehemently anti-Israel views and have more respect for Palestinians/Arabs. Is this to say they are all like that? No. I have met a few Lutherans who actually support Israel. However, the consensus is very cut and dry, a majority of Lutherans do follow Luther's theology and have knowledge of Luther's deep hatred of Jewish people. Most Lutherans do believe that JEws are the murderers of their god.
I am sad to say that. IF anyone doesn't believe me I encourage you to call the various Lutheran churches and talk to a pastor/priest and many times you will get them on the phone and they will explain their beliefs. If anyone has experience dealing with these people, it is me. I also did humanitarian work with churches in the past and got to know people in Christain communities.
Yes, I will say this, Martin Luther , is probably the worst Jew hater on the Earth, next to Satan himself. Martin LUther is the father of the Holocaust. His writings are open for all to see. He claimed we JEws are the sons of pigs and devils and that we are the scum of the Earth. He called on his followers to burn all the synagogues, which they did, leaving very few, if any, synagogues left standing in Germany during his reign of power. Between Luther and Wagner, these two men helped shaped Hitler's ideologies, as well as the German/Austrian populace, more than any other people in history. Many people mistake Hitler's beliefs in Nordic mythology as the source of his Jew-hatred. TOTALLY FALSE! Nordic mythology actually had very bigotry associated with it. The pagan Nordic religions actually were much more tolerant and had some noble aspects (if I am allowed to even say that). However, Hitler morphed his twisted view of Lutheranism and mixed it with Nordic and Hindu theology. The Swastika is actually a peace symbol, which Hitler also decided to mutate into his warped view of Aryan purity.
I don't have much time to respond, but let me say this.. The modern-day Lutheran church is one of the most Anti-Israel (and may I say Anti-Semitic) churches in the world today. They are the most devout followers of Replacement Theology which was an important part of Martin Luther's ideology. I have many Christian friends and I respect Christians greatly. Maybe, some will think I am crazy, but I actually respected the previous Pope John Paul, as well I respect pastors like John Hagee and other evangelicals who support Israel. I grew up around Christians and I learned the churches that were pro-Israel and anti-Israel and a lot of it had to do with their denomination, although there was a few churches that had their own individual views that diverted from their denomination.
I will say I have no Lutheran friends. I've called many churces in the past to learn about their ideologies and views of Jewish people and Israel. Most Lutheran priests I have talked to have expressed vehemently anti-Israel views and have more respect for Palestinians/Arabs. Is this to say they are all like that? No. I have met a few Lutherans who actually support Israel. However, the consensus is very cut and dry, a majority of Lutherans do follow Luther's theology and have knowledge of Luther's deep hatred of Jewish people. Most Lutherans do believe that JEws are the murderers of their god.
I am sad to say that. IF anyone doesn't believe me I encourage you to call the various Lutheran churches and talk to a pastor/priest and many times you will get them on the phone and they will explain their beliefs. If anyone has experience dealing with these people, it is me. I also did humanitarian work with churches in the past and got to know people in Christain communities.
Yes, I will say this, Martin Luther , is probably the worst Jew hater on the Earth, next to Satan himself. Martin LUther is the father of the Holocaust. His writings are open for all to see. He claimed we JEws are the sons of pigs and devils and that we are the scum of the Earth. He called on his followers to burn all the synagogues, which they did, leaving very few, if any, synagogues left standing in Germany during his reign of power. Between Luther and Wagner, these two men helped shaped Hitler's ideologies, as well as the German/Austrian populace, more than any other people in history. Many people mistake Hitler's beliefs in Nordic mythology as the source of his Jew-hatred. TOTALLY FALSE! Nordic mythology actually had very bigotry associated with it. The pagan Nordic religions actually were much more tolerant and had some noble aspects (if I am allowed to even say that). However, Hitler morphed his twisted view of Lutheranism and mixed it with Nordic and Hindu theology. The Swastika is actually a peace symbol, which Hitler also decided to mutate into his warped view of Aryan purity.
OK, from the view of an outsider, I can see where DBF is coming from. He sees all of these stories about the rape etc. and that it probably all he sees regarding Satmar. For a very, very long time, I thought certain horrible things about other religions that I learned were just not true. While I can assure you, DBF, that yes, there are bad Satmar chassidim, there are also really awesome ones. Corruption exists everywhere. I wish I can take you to see the good parts of Judaism, I really do, and I don't blame you for thinking the way you do because that's the majority of what you are exposed to. I am no different. I have made several discussing conclusions in the past about other religions. Why? Because I was ignorant. Ignorance isn't a bad thing. So while I'm not defending the things that he says that might infuriate other Jews, I know that his intentions are not pure evil. So I might get some flack from my fellow Jews for defending him, but if he really knew Judaism the way we do, he wouldn't have such thoughts. We are all JTFers and we have to teach him. We are here to learn. If TAG left because of DBF, I feel bad that TAG isn't able to see that DBF just needs some education on the matter. If I told you some of the things I believed growing up, you'd think I was stoned our of my skull or just had idiot parents.Thanks for trying to clear things up, Mo.
I read all the things DBF said, and you can tell that he just doesn't know a lot about Judaism. And that's OK. I take no offense by anything he said because you can see that he just needs to be taught. If, on the other hand, he was truly knowledgeable about it (and you'd be able to tell), then yeah, it would royally suck, but I implore you to see this how I see it: DBF just needs us to teach him.I never claimed to be an expert on anything. I just go by what Chaim states and teaches. Not every single Satmar or Lutheran is bad, but the religions are. They should leave them.
Thanks for trying to clear things up, Mo.Satmarism is NOT evil. Some of their values are definitely not what WE believe in, and some of their members commit heinous crimes against the Torah and Law. However, unless somebody is a frum Jew like I am, the odds are that their beliefs are NOT what I believe in. I urge you to understand that though they may express certain things that other Jews don't believe in, most of the world expresses things that we don't believe in. There aren't as many pedophiles per-capita as you think there are. I know it seems that way, but you and I both know how the media can be.
Chaim said that I used excessively harsh language and so I have tried to tone it down. Satmarism as a sect is evil, but there are some members of it that are not. There are also a whole lot of innocent girls in it that have no way out. Of course I have nothing against them. I hope that they find the ability to get out of it and find a branch of real Torah Judaism like Chabad. The same goes to Lutheran individuals that are not personally anti-Semitic.
I never claimed to be an expert on anything. I just go by what Chaim states and teaches. Not every single Satmar or Lutheran is bad, but the religions are. They should leave them.I can see why you'd say that based on the evil that is out there, but trust me when I tell you that there are a lot of good ones too who do a lot of good.
Satmarism is NOT evil. Some of their values are definitely not what WE believe in, and some of their members commit heinous crimes against the Torah and Law. However, unless somebody is a frum Jew like I am, the odds are that their beliefs are NOT what I believe in. I urge you to understand that though they may express certain things that other Jews don't believe in, most of the world expresses things that we don't believe in. There aren't as many pedophiles per-capita as you think there are. I know it seems that way, but you and I both know how the media can be.I don't think Chasidim have a higher rate of pedophilia than is the average--never said that. All of my comments were specific to Satmar. If you read the facts of that case, it is clear that the Satmar establishment supported that pedophile Weberman, raised money for his legal defense, and attempted to intimidate the victim. They behaved exactly like certain churches that go out of their way to sweep pedophile priests/pastors under the rug and deny their victims justice.
I don't think Chasidim have a higher rate of pedophilia than is the average--never said that. All of my comments were specific to Satmar. If you read the facts of that case, it is clear that the Satmar establishment supported that pedophile Weberman, raised money for his legal defense, and attempted to intimidate the victim. They behaved exactly like certain churches that go out of their way to sweep pedophile priests/pastors under the rug and deny their victims justice.Yes, there was definitely some corruption, but a) innocent till proven guilty b) the victim might not have been credible (at the time) c) many satmars were disgusted by the support he got d) there is a Jewish Law which states that you gotta judge favorably until you know for certain the guy is guilty. I'm not advocating the support he got, but in a situation like that, a Jew has an obligation to help a fellow Jew. Now, if they knew he was a pedophile and tried to cover it up, that's one thing. But if they just wanted to see a fair trial, then they are just abiding by the Torah. Again, Satmar is not to be blamed as a whole. I beg you to see that it's only a small percentage who are guilty.
The facts of the case were discussed at long length in that other thread. KWRBT and Chaim explained it much better than I could have. The evidence against Weberman was so overwhelming that he was convicted of virtually all charges and sentenced to nearly the maximum. I know some people said that this was an exercise in legal anti-Semitism but that just makes no sense. His victim/s were/are also all Jews and all of them were Satmar members as a matter of fact. I urge you to go back and reread that thread. That chazir Weberman got off easy because he really should be executed. As it is he still got a lesser sentence than Jonathan Pollard.I'm pretty sure that in the time of the Jewish Court (a thousand years ago?) Weberman would probably get death. If I'm not mistaken, the punishment for raping an underage girl is stoning or hanging.
So no one can cite some Lutheran doctrine that says something negative about jews?
So no one can cite some Lutheran doctrine that says something negative about jews?
Not to get too off subject... but what about Methodists?They are typical far-left pro-Fakestinian mainliners. Did you see the thread I posted last night about the Methodist pastor who murdered both of his wives?
Well, how about the head bishop of the Evangelical Lutheran Church of Amercia (ECLA) who has called for investigation of "War Crimes" committed by Israel against the Palestinians. Mark Hanson, the head bishop of the ECLA is virulently anti-Israel and supports the Arabs. The ECLA is one of the largest Christian organizations in the USA.
http://mondoweiss.net/2012/10/evangelical-lutheran-church-calls-for-us-inquest-into-human-rights-violations-in-israel-and-some-jewish-groups-are-outraged.html
I'm sorry if people think the wrong way of me for saying, but a majority of Lutherans look up to Martin Luther as their inspiration. I have talked with many Christians who are ignorant of what he has done, but Lutherans, as a whole, have more knowledge about Martin Luther than other Protestant Christians.
The Lutheran church today as a whole, not every single Lutheran church, believes Israel was stolen from the Arabs. I've talked to enough Lutherans to get a consensus on this issue. This is quite a contrast from Baptists, Church of CHrist, Pentecostals I have talked to who many, are even greater supporters of Israel and the Jewish people, than many Jews I have met.
And a good Lutheran you are indeed, Hidden Author.
Show me the anti semetic lutheran doctrine. Should be easy to find in that catechismSorry to say this my friend, but they defensively believe in replacement theology, my father in law is a minister. But I was influence by anti Trinitarian beliefs.
Sorry to say this my friend, but they defensively believe in replacement theology, my father in law is a minister. But I was influence by anti Trinitarian beliefs.Not to take this offtopic, but the Trinity does not pertain to replacement theology.
Sorry to say this my friend, but they defensively believe in replacement theology, my father in law is a minister. But I was influence by anti Trinitarian beliefs.
Not to take this offtopic, but the Trinity does not pertain to replacement theology.Maybe not, but I would like to remind you that many of the Protestant reformers were anti Trinitarian, and overtime went back. When they went back to Hashem, some miracles happened, the seven Crusades against the Hussites, the settling of America,etc.
What kind of minister?A Lutheran minister.
Maybe not, but I would like to remind you that many of the Protestant reformers were anti Trinitarian, and overtime went back. When they went back to Hashem, some miracles happened, the seven Crusades against the Hussites, the settling of America,etc.The Pilgrims were mainstream Trinitarian Christians.
I'm trying to understand this. Isn't lutheranism based on luther? Hence, the name?Yes.
Ok I'm done.
The Pilgrims were mainstream Trinitarian Christians.No they were not!
"Entire black race"? Who does this?:-X :teach:
Trinitarians say that God is made up of three persons, the first person “God the Father, the second person God the Son, the third person God the Holy Spirit”. God the Father is not God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit is not God the Father or the Son, all three are separate identities and make up one God. Like one Apple who is cut into three pieces and each piece is only one third of the Apple, so is each one of their gods only one third and all three persons together make up one God.
The term “God the Son and God the Holy Spirit” is not found in the Scriptures, it would indicate that God would be more than ONE.
Contrary to Scriptures,Trinitarians believe that Jesus and the Father are TWO (John 10:30), and neither do they believe that the Lord Jesus is the Holy Spirit (2 Cor. 3:17).
According to Scriptures, (Deut.7:9 and Mark 12:29) there is ONE God and that is the FATHER (1 Cor. 8:6).
Jesus Christ our Lord is the Father (Isa.9:6, John 14:9), it is Jesus Christ who holds the titles “Father and Son and Holy Spirit” (Isa.9:6, Luke 1:35, 2 Cor. 3:17). Jesus Christ was in the beginning and He created all things and nothing came into being apart from Him (John 1:3). Everything was created by Him, through Him and for Him (John 1:3). (http://puritanbelief.blogspot.com)
None of us (barring trolls) have ever said that all black people are bad or are racially inferior and you know that.implications and generalizations
Ephraim, I would like to see a source for your claim.
I'm trying to understand this. Isn't lutheranism based on luther? Hence, the name?
Ok I'm done.
is it based on his theological ideas for the most part? yes
is it a cult where people only talk about/are obsessed with killing jews like some here insinuate? no
Wow thanks for sharing the great post, Muman.I'm sorry some Jews i will never forgive for example Philip Weiss and his partner.Jewish Voices for peace Richie Slitherstein is just an idiotic clown maybe i can one day forgive him. and the list goes on and on.Oh also the freaks of the neturei karta as well as atzmon and sands..the list continues to grow
Yes I agree with hating evil. It must be hated. When it comes to an evil person, I hate those who are evil. At the same time, it's not in my nature to start cursing them. I feel mostly sad for them, for the evil they cause. Disappointed and sad, upset. I leave the cursing part to others. For the most part, I am uncomfortable with just cursing anyone. If it is someone who does good and some bad why would I want the person to be cursed? If it's someone completely evil- so evil that we are able to judge them as such then yes. But I just believe that sometimes, we cannot be the final and true judges of everyone. There are other people, Jewish people who are observant, do good deeds etc.. and when they make a mistake or some errors then we are going to curse them so that their names and memory be obliterated? Hashem will judge if He will punish and then reward them for the merits they achieved. So my point is that I am uncomfortable with the cursing based on the fact that I don't know the people we as a forum curse are completely evil. Completely erev rav or people with just disagreements and so on.