Religious Jews in America and elsewhere

[Vito]

These people are so worried about inter-marriage, premarital sex, studying Torah (all of which are important of course) and wearing black (for Chasidics), but they don't live in Israel - that's probably the biggest sin they're committing, or am I wrong? If I'm right, doesn't that seem to be hypocritical of them?
I just don't understand their mentality...

[MassuhDGoodName]

Re:  "...I just don't understand their mentality..."

Technically, they are correct in remaining Jewish but choosing not to live the in the State of Israel. (There are quite a few Orthodox living in the State of Israel yet refusing to recognize the State!)

Rabbi Kahane confirmed this, when he was asked about the Naturei Karta & others who refused to recognize the State of Israel.

This is because our prophecies teach that the Jews remain in Exile until the Moshiach personally leads each and every Jew back to the Land of Israel and personally rebuilds the Third Temple.

A metaphysical contract is said to have been made between the non-Jewish nations and G-d, whereby the non-Jews promised not to abuse the Jews living in their lands as Exiles.

Rabbi Kahane made the argument that with the Holocaust, the Gentile nations had broken their vow made to G-d, and therefore it was incumbent upon the Jewish People to Return on our own, as a matter of self-preservation, without waiting on the Moshiach to arrive and do it for us.

[Vito]

This is because our prophecies teach that the Jews remain in Exile until the Moshiach personally leads each and every Jew back to the Land of Israel and personally rebuilds the Third Temple.

If every Jew in the world followed that, there would be no Israel. Is that statement taken out of context perhaps?

[Vito]

Well said MassuhDGoodName!
Vito, I understand your concern but also consider the fact that there are MANY many non-religious Jews in America and other countries. As long as those unreligious-Jews live in these countries, there must be a welcoming religious Jewish community for them, to receive them with open arms and always wait in the hopes of finally all return to Israel as it should be. And of guiding them to follow the Torah and doing good deeds for the coming of Moshiach.

I'm arguing that they seem to be hypocrites for giving off this "holier than thou" air.. and yet they're committing a sin that Hashem killed 80% of the Israelites in Egypt for.

I've never heard the argument you just gave me, it makes a lot of sense.. but is that really why they're outside of Israel? If that's the case then I have no problem with that.. but I highly doubt that that's their reason.

[Dominater96]

These people are so worried about inter-marriage, premarital sex, studying Torah (all of which are important of course) and wearing black (for Chasidics), but they don't live in Israel - that's probably the biggest sin they're committing, or am I wrong? If I'm right, doesn't that seem to be hypocritical of them?
I just don't understand their mentality...

Rambam and Ramban disagree on this.Rambam says its not a mitzvah to live there, Ramban says it is.

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

According to most authorities its not a sin living outside the land of Israel, allthough living in the land is a great thing. Also even though in the past I might have criticized and hated those who dont care and dont like the state of Israel, now to tell you the truth I understand a lot about what they stand for and why they didnt want Israel to be created. This of course doesnt mean that I agree 100% with them, or that G-d forbid I support arabs winning over Jews, or giving land to our enemies, BUT you have to know that the zionist movement was made up of evil people who have made a state and threw that state made many Jews not religious and going against G-d. These evil mamzerim have takin over Israel and its inhabitants, contolling 100% of the media and education system, the government and others things in their dispossal and then using these tools of contol to purposly go against G-d's words and "re-educate" the Jewish population into their sick twisted beliefs of heresy and lies. They are filled with evil pride and a desire to rule and soo wanted to create a state becuase no non-Jewish country would accept them ruling. 

[judeanoncapta]

To Vito:   The sad truth is quite different than what a few of these posters wrote to you.

I know that many of them have wrote about prophecies of the Messiah personally delivering each Jew back to the land of Israel. I know the sources that they are quoting very well and it is beyond the scope of this post to go into why they are misinterpreting these sources.

 The real truth, the painful truth is that we have lived a scattered exile existence for so long that it is like pulling teeth to get us to live a normal national existence.

We don't know how to  deal with the opportunity that the State of Israel presents.

Rav Kahane once said "One cannot be normal after living as a minority for 200 years, let alone 2000 years."  We are literally insane.

After 2000 years, the doors to our homeland are wide open, and we just sit in exile, confused. Not knowing what to do.

You know what I love about Gentiles. You have two things that we don't have.

You're normal. You're sane.

I see your normalcy and sanity reflected in this post. You say "Hey, religious Jews believe in God and the prophecies of the Torah. Why don't they go live in the Land flowing with Milk and Honey? The Land that God wants them to live in?"

 What a normal and natural and sane question.

And the responses have been confused and confusing. One rationalization after another. One even claiming that there is a prophecy that the Jews should stay where they are until the Messiah personally grabs them by the shirt and drags them to Jerusalem.

I'm sorry for being so critical, guys. But I expected better on a Kahanist forum.

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

To Vito:   The sad truth is quite different than what a few of these posters wrote to you.

I know that many of them have wrote about prophecies of the Messiah personally delivering each Jew back to the land of Israel. I know the sources that they are quoting very well and it is beyond the scope of this post to go into why they are misinterpreting these sources.

 The real truth, the painful truth is that we have lived a scattered exile existence for so long that it is like pulling teeth to get us to live a normal national existence.

We don't know how to  deal with the opportunity that the State of Israel presents.

Rav Kahane once said "One cannot be normal after living as a minority for 200 years, let alone 2000 years."  We are literally insane.

After 2000 years, the doors to our homeland are wide open, and we just sit in exile, confused. Not knowing what to do.

You know what I love about Gentiles. You have two things that we don't have.

You're normal. You're sane.

I see your normalcy and sanity reflected in this post. You say "Hey, religious Jews believe in G-d and the prophecies of the Torah. Why don't they go live in the Land flowing with Milk and Honey? The Land that G-d wants them to live in?"

 What a normal and natural and sane question.

And the responses have been confused and confusing. One rationalization after another. One even claiming that there is a prophecy that the Jews should stay where they are until the Messiah personally grabs them by the shirt and drags them to Jerusalem.

I'm sorry for being so critical, guys. But I expected better on a Kahanist forum.

Thier are different views in the Torah and Talmud. Even if you listin to Rabbis like Rav Bar Haim (who is a settler Rav) he still quotes and respects the other side of the argument and recognizes why they say what they do. So lets not curse and look down upon Religious Jews who do have a different way of learning and way of seeing things. + on top of that it is well known that Jews will be throughout the world until Moshiah comes not the other way around like some evangelicans believe (that Jews will go to Israel then their messiah will come).
 What I believe personally is that a Jew should go to the Land of Israel only after he works on himself spiritually and his Mitzvot greatly outweigh his bad behavior. Going to Israel should be completly for Leshem Shemayim (for the Sake of Heaven) and NOT for joining the evil culture of Tel-Aviv and going their for clubs, etc.  Someone going to Israel and not keeping Mitzvot (or starting to) is counter productive and he only furthur damages the Land Of Israel cousing more blood-sheed and exile to the people.

[judeanoncapta]

Tzvi, I used to be Satmar, I know his shita like the back of my hand. I'm probably the only person on earth who has learned VaYoel Moshe in full.

I can say with a clear conscience that what the Satmar Rebbe said was NOT TRUE.

I'm sure that he thought what he was doing was the will of HKBH, but it doesn't make what he says halakhically sound.

I looked into the whole thing VERY thoroughly and I have to say that the Chareidi shita is not based on Halakha but on Ghetto Fear, Ghetto mentality which has NO BASIS in Halakha.

Seriously, Tzvi. I used to say that I still respect the Satmar Rebbe. But I don't anymore. I was deceived by him.

His sefer contains many misleading things in it.

I lost respect for him when I looked up a passage that he quoted from the Shulchan Aruch that he used to support the idea that it is Assur to speak Lashon HaKodesh.

I looked it up and found out that not only does the Shulchan Aruch allow speaking Lashon Hakodesh, it allows speaking Lashon Hakodesh in a Merchatz while people are Arum.

After that, I don't trust anything from that book and NEITHER SHOULD YOU.

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

I know allmost close to nothing about Satmer so I cant and wont comment. And im not saying that Jews (expecially Religious) shouldnt all go to Israel , but
 One honest question- What would be the difference if the land of Israel would be controled by the British as opposed to it being contolled by the so-called zionist Democratic state of Israel? ( and then in time their being a real Jewish rebellion and making of the country Jewish for real). I just think that the fact that this enemy of ours has named itself Jewish (but its Eruv Rav) it stops many Jews from wanting to fight (even with killing) the enemy - at the mean time it has more and more contol and brainwashing more and more Jewish children who's parents came to Israel for pure reasons (expecially great Sefardi families).

[judeanoncapta]

There is an essential difference between foreign rule of Eretz Yisrael and Jewish rule.

Even if the government is not run according to the Torah and even if the leaders are not G-d fearing.

Read the Rambam in Hilkhoth Chanukah. He makes it quite clear that Jewish rule is preferable to foreign rule. He says that The Chashmonaim returned Malkhuth Yisrael to us for over two hundren years.

Tzvi, you and I both know that there was not ONE Halakhic king that ruled from CHannukah until the Churban. And yet the Rambam praises it nevertheless.

Why does he do that, Tzvi?

I have my answer, maybe you could tell me yours.

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

please post the Rambam - I will get back to you.

[judeanoncapta]

Here it is, Tzvi.

הִלְכּוֹת חֲנֻכָּה פֶּרֶק ג
א  בְּבַיִת שֵׁנִי כְּשֶׁמָּלְכוּ יָוָן, גָּזְרוּ גְּזֵרוֹת עַל יִשְׂרָאֵל, וּבִטְּלוּ דָּתָם, וְלֹא הִנִּיחוּ אוֹתָם לַעְסֹק בַּתּוֹרָה וּבַמִּצְווֹת; וּפָשְׁטוּ יָדָם בְּמָמוֹנָם, וּבִבְנוֹתֵיהֶם; וְנִכְנְסוּ לַהֵיכָל, וּפָרְצוּ בּוֹ פְּרָצוֹת, וְטִמְּאוּ הַטְּהָרוֹת.  וְצַר לָהֶם לְיִשְׂרָאֵל מְאוֹד מִפְּנֵיהֶם, וּלְחָצוּם לַחַץ גָּדוֹל, עַד שֶׁרִחַם עֲלֵיהֶם אֱלֹהֵי אֲבוֹתֵינוּ, וְהוֹשִׁיעָם מִיָּדָם.  וְגָבְרוּ בְּנֵי חַשְׁמֻנַּאי הַכּוֹהֲנִים הַגְּדוֹלִים, וַהֲרָגוּם וְהוֹשִׁיעוּ יִשְׂרָאֵל מִיָּדָם; וְהִעְמִידוּ מֶלֶךְ מִן הַכּוֹהֲנִים, וְחָזְרָה מַלְכוּת לְיִשְׂרָאֵל יָתֵר עַל מָאתַיִם שָׁנָה--עַד הֶחָרְבָּן הַשֵּׁנִי.

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

please translate  (I can wait).

[judeanoncapta]

הִלְכּוֹת חֲנֻכָּה פֶּרֶק ג
א  בְּבַיִת שֵׁנִי כְּשֶׁמָּלְכוּ יָוָן, גָּזְרוּ גְּזֵרוֹת עַל יִשְׂרָאֵל, וּבִטְּלוּ דָּתָם, וְלֹא הִנִּיחוּ אוֹתָם לַעְסֹק בַּתּוֹרָה וּבַמִּצְווֹת; וּפָשְׁטוּ יָדָם בְּמָמוֹנָם, וּבִבְנוֹתֵיהֶם; וְנִכְנְסוּ לַהֵיכָל, וּפָרְצוּ בּוֹ פְּרָצוֹת, וְטִמְּאוּ הַטְּהָרוֹת.  וְצַר לָהֶם לְיִשְׂרָאֵל מְאוֹד מִפְּנֵיהֶם, וּלְחָצוּם לַחַץ גָּדוֹל, עַד שֶׁרִחַם עֲלֵיהֶם אֱלֹהֵי אֲבוֹתֵינוּ, וְהוֹשִׁיעָם מִיָּדָם.  וְגָבְרוּ בְּנֵי חַשְׁמֻנַּאי הַכּוֹהֲנִים הַגְּדוֹלִים, וַהֲרָגוּם וְהוֹשִׁיעוּ יִשְׂרָאֵל מִיָּדָם; וְהִעְמִידוּ מֶלֶךְ מִן הַכּוֹהֲנִים, וְחָזְרָה מַלְכוּת לְיִשְׂרָאֵל יָתֵר עַל מָאתַיִם שָׁנָה--עַד הֶחָרְבָּן הַשֵּׁנִי.

Laws of Channukah, Chapter 3.

During the Second Temple era, when Greece ruled. They made decrees on Israel and outlawed their religion, and didn't allow them to learn Torah and perform Mitzvot, and they took their money and their daughters and entered the Temple and brazenly broke down walls, and they impurified the pure. And they caused much pain to Israel and pressured them with a terrible pressure UNTIL the God of their fathers had mercy on them and saved them from their hands. And the high priests, the sons of Hashmonai killed them and saved Israel from their hands. And they appointed a king from the priests and Jewish sovereignty(Malkhuth Yisrael) returned for more than two hundred years until the second Destruction.

Your thoughts, please.

[RationalThought110]

Well, I once heard that the Rebbe did not live in Israel for that reason, because if he went to Israel, he would have to remain living there continously, but he still had a lot of work to do in the US. (But I might be wrong, I kind of get stories people tell me a little wrong sometimes, I might have forgoten what my Rabbi told me about this  )

I think the main disagreement between the Rebbe and Rabbi Kahane--as MassuhDGoodName sort of implied--was that Kahane thought the Rebbe should have encouraged Jews to move to Israel.  Other than that, I heard they agreed on most other issues.

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

הִלְכּוֹת חֲנֻכָּה פֶּרֶק ג
א  בְּבַיִת שֵׁנִי כְּשֶׁמָּלְכוּ יָוָן, גָּזְרוּ גְּזֵרוֹת עַל יִשְׂרָאֵל, וּבִטְּלוּ דָּתָם, וְלֹא הִנִּיחוּ אוֹתָם לַעְסֹק בַּתּוֹרָה וּבַמִּצְווֹת; וּפָשְׁטוּ יָדָם בְּמָמוֹנָם, וּבִבְנוֹתֵיהֶם; וְנִכְנְסוּ לַהֵיכָל, וּפָרְצוּ בּוֹ פְּרָצוֹת, וְטִמְּאוּ הַטְּהָרוֹת.  וְצַר לָהֶם לְיִשְׂרָאֵל מְאוֹד מִפְּנֵיהֶם, וּלְחָצוּם לַחַץ גָּדוֹל, עַד שֶׁרִחַם עֲלֵיהֶם אֱלֹהֵי אֲבוֹתֵינוּ, וְהוֹשִׁיעָם מִיָּדָם.  וְגָבְרוּ בְּנֵי חַשְׁמֻנַּאי הַכּוֹהֲנִים הַגְּדוֹלִים, וַהֲרָגוּם וְהוֹשִׁיעוּ יִשְׂרָאֵל מִיָּדָם; וְהִעְמִידוּ מֶלֶךְ מִן הַכּוֹהֲנִים, וְחָזְרָה מַלְכוּת לְיִשְׂרָאֵל יָתֵר עַל מָאתַיִם שָׁנָה--עַד הֶחָרְבָּן הַשֵּׁנִי.

Laws of Channukah, Chapter 3.

During the Second Temple era, when Greece ruled. They made decrees on Israel and outlawed their religion, and didn't allow them to learn Torah and perform Mitzvot, and they took their money and their daughters and entered the Temple and brazenly broke down walls, and they impurified the pure. And they caused much pain to Israel and pressured them with a terrible pressure UNTIL the G-d of their fathers had mercy on them and saved them from their hands. And the high priests, the sons of Hashmonai killed them and saved Israel from their hands. And they appointed a king from the priests and Jewish sovereignty(Malkhuth Yisrael) returned for more than two hundred years until the second Destruction.

Your thoughts, please.

Okay, but we can see the difference between the Hashmanoim (the beginning of their dynasty) and Ben Gorian. The difference between the Hashmanoim and Ben Goyian is that the first saved the Jews from Religious persecution while the later actually initiated it threw various programs and soo called education. 
 
 Once again im not saying to destroy the state or whatever, but I do understand a lot of the opposition to it, and also I do see the fact that if someone else would rule the country (ex- Britian) their would be a proper revolt by now, as opposed to the soo called Jews who rule and who with this disguise gain a lot of sympathy from the average Jew.)
 "For all intensive purposes they are our enemy" - Noam Federman. (paraphrase)

[Lubab]

In my view,the reason we must have Jews in Israel and supporting Israel is not because of halachic obligation during the times of exile to live in Israel, it is because 6 million Jewish lives are in danger. The obligation to protect life overrides nearly all other commandments in the Torah.

There is no sin to live TEMPORARILY outside of Israel in the times of exile. The grave sin is to live there in a permanent fashion which I would assume most Orthodox Jews definitely do not do.

Even if one could argue that we have an obligation to live their now, poverty in the land of Israel is one of the exceptions to that rule and we see great poverty in Israel today as evidenced by Israeli Jews coming to my door nearly daily asking for the  most basic ammenities.

In light of the poverty that exists in Israel and the help that American Jews provide to the Israeli Jews every day it is also worth asking if those in Israel could survive without the help of money coming from Jews who live outside the land of Israel. It is worth asking if we don't have a responsiblity to stay here to financially support those who are there. But even more importantly, if there are not some Jews doing outreach to fight conversion and intermarriage than many Jews will be lost forever, G-d forbid, and then will never make it to Israel.

Lubavitcher Rabbis often view themselves as the captain who must leave the sinking boat last to ensure that everyone makes it out alive-physially and spiritually.

I do believe the arguments put forth in VaYoel Moshe are well founded-the Rebbe even said that if he did not make those arguments we (Lubavitchers) would need to make them. That's why we were never crazy about having a state there. But now that there are Jews there we absolutely have no choice but to have a government and an army to protect them. The issue of saving one life trumps all of the other concerns.

[Dr. Dan]

In my view,the reason we must have Jews in Israel and supporting Israel is not because of halachic obligation during the times of exile to live in Israel, it is because 6 million Jewish lives are in danger. The obligation to protect life overrides nearly all other commandments in the Torah.

There is no sin to live TEMPORARILY outside of Israel in the times of exile. The grave sin is to live there in a permanent fashion which I would assume most Orthodox Jews definitely do not do.

Even if one could argue that we have an obligation to live their now, poverty in the land of Israel is one of the exceptions to that rule and we see great poverty in Israel today as evidenced by Israeli Jews coming to my door nearly daily asking for the  most basic ammenities.

In light of the poverty that exists in Israel and the help that American Jews provide to the Israeli Jews every day it is also worth asking if those in Israel could survive without the help of money coming from Jews who live outside the land of Israel. It is worth asking if we don't have a responsiblity to stay here to financially support those who are there. But even more importantly, if there are not some Jews doing outreach to fight conversion and intermarriage than many Jews will be lost forever, G-d forbid, and then will never make it to Israel.

Lubavitcher Rabbis often view themselves as the captain who must leave the sinking boat last to ensure that everyone makes it out alive-physially and spiritually.

I do believe the arguments put forth in VaYoel Moshe are well founded-the Rebbe even said that if he did not make those arguments we (Lubavitchers) would need to make them. That's why we were never crazy about having a state there. But now that there are Jews there we absolutely have no choice but to have a government and an army to protect them. The issue of saving one life trumps all of the other concerns.

Lubab...I love what you wrote!!!

[judeanoncapta]

In my view,the reason we must have Jews in Israel and supporting Israel is not because of halachic obligation during the times of exile to live in Israel, it is because 6 million Jewish lives are in danger. The obligation to protect life overrides nearly all other commandments in the Torah.

There is no sin to live TEMPORARILY outside of Israel in the times of exile. The grave sin is to live there in a permanent fashion which I would assume most Orthodox Jews definitely do not do.

Even if one could argue that we have an obligation to live their now, poverty in the land of Israel is one of the exceptions to that rule and we see great poverty in Israel today as evidenced by Israeli Jews coming to my door nearly daily asking for the  most basic ammenities.

In light of the poverty that exists in Israel and the help that American Jews provide to the Israeli Jews every day it is also worth asking if those in Israel could survive without the help of money coming from Jews who live outside the land of Israel. It is worth asking if we don't have a responsiblity to stay here to financially support those who are there. But even more importantly, if there are not some Jews doing outreach to fight conversion and intermarriage than many Jews will be lost forever, G-d forbid, and then will never make it to Israel.

Lubavitcher Rabbis often view themselves as the captain who must leave the sinking boat last to ensure that everyone makes it out alive-physially and spiritually.

I do believe the arguments put forth in VaYoel Moshe are well founded-the Rebbe even said that if he did not make those arguments we (Lubavitchers) would need to make them. That's why we were never crazy about having a state there. But now that there are Jews there we absolutely have no choice but to have a government and an army to protect them. The issue of saving one life trumps all of the other concerns.

Lubab...I love what you wrote!!!

Lubab, I disagree completely with what you wrote.

Your statement "In my view,the reason we must have Jews in Israel and supporting Israel is not because of halachic obligation during the times of exile to live in Israel, it is because 6 million Jewish lives are in danger." is self-contradictory.

If 6 million jews, over half of Jews live in Israel, we are not in a time of exile, without question.

Your view of exile is spiritualized and therefore 100 percent of Jews could live in Israel and you would still consider it Galuth.

Galuth means being forcibly removed from your home, if all Jews can move back at will, whenever they wish, then we are not in a state of Galuth.

And the arguments in VaYoel Moshe are not well-founded.

Have you ever read them?

I have.

Many things in that book are total fabrication.

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

Of course we are in exile today (even Jews in Israel). The fact is that we are ruled by a foreign government in and outside of Israel.
 Why was it concidered exile during the times that the Jews lived in Israel and Greeks ruled over it. (maybe even when Maccabis did also).

[judeanoncapta]

A Jew living in Israel today is NOT IN EXILE.

Unless you wish to spiritualize the term.

I do not.

[judeanoncapta]

The term Galut is a simple and defined term.

It means being forcibly removed from your home or homeland.

A situation in which the Jewish people as a whole could move back home tommorow morning if they wished cannot be considered exile.

Otherwise, the term is meaningless.

I suggest you listen to Rav Bar Hayim's shiur on the subject. It is eye-opening.

http://machonshilo.org/component/option,com_docman/task,doc_download/gid,5/Itemid,64/

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

Unless you wish to spiritualize the term.

Isnt that the main point of the Geula? To have the final Redemption with Moshiah, spiritual gain and the Building of the 3rd Temple. I think that the spiritual aspect is a lot more important then simply physically being someplace (allthough its a great mitzva to be in Israel - to walk 4 amot- but it counts when? - when you think of doing the Mitva and do it for the sake of the Mitzva - its spirutual/mental)
 Also about Galut and Geulah -After coming out of Egypt wasn't Israel experiencing Geula (even though they weren't in Eretz yet)?

[judeanoncapta]

You're better off listening to the link that I put down on the last post.

Here, I'll post it again.
 
http://machonshilo.org/component/option,com_docman/task,doc_download/gid,5/Itemid,64/

All of your questions are answered and then some.

And the spiritualization of the Geulah is quite dangerous.

It was the mistake made by Shabbatai Tzvi, Yeshu, and many others.

The Rambam gives a psak as to what the Geulah is "Shiubud Malkhiuth Bilvad." 

Being free of foreign rule.

That is Geulah according to the Rambam. And in my opinion, he is 100% correct and those who say differently are fooling themselves and others.

Look and Neturei Karta and listen to what they say to the media.

They say "We are in a spiritual state of exile. We are forbidden to leave it. The Zionists caused all of our problems because they tried to break out of it. We are waiting for miracles and that is what the Torah requires of us."

It is the "spiritualization" of the geulah in their minds that has led them to treason.

It is a dangerous idea and should be driven out of mainstream Judaism.