Author Topic: JTF Listen to me please.  (Read 28522 times)

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Offline Sarah

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Re: JTF Listen to me please.
« Reply #50 on: November 07, 2007, 02:45:20 PM »
Muslims do live in ghettos in the west. Here in England, all the muslims especially the asians live in small communities that are relatively deprived.

Its not in any way comparable to the ghettos the Nazis forced the Jews into but they are still defined as ghettos.

Offline Dexter

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Re: JTF Listen to me please.
« Reply #51 on: November 07, 2007, 02:49:40 PM »
Muslims do live in ghettos in the west. Here in England, all the muslims especially the asians live in small communities that are relatively deprived.

Its not in any way comparable to the ghettos the Nazis forced the Jews into but they are still defined as ghettos.


You mean like the schvartza ghettos in America (AKA "da hood", UMM HMM!).


Yes, that is what I meant either.
Not a foreign land we took and not with foreign possession but a land that belong to our ancestors that was occupied without a trial. And when we had the opportunity, we took our land back.
-Shimon Maccabee's answer to Antiochus VII Sidetes.

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Offline Sarah

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Re: JTF Listen to me please.
« Reply #52 on: November 07, 2007, 02:50:30 PM »
Quote
Also, Muslims are allowed to have Jewish friends, there is no place in the Quran that says that it isn't allowed.

Really, Dexter? Do you know the whole Koran well enough to say that?


Have you read the Koran at: 5:50-51 where it says:

"... O YOU WHO BELIEVE! DO NOT TAKE THE JEWS AND THE CHRISTIANS FOR FRIENDS; THEY ARE FRIENDS OF EACH OTHER; AND WHOEVER AMONGST YOU TAKES THEM FOR A FRIEND, THEN SURELY HE IS ONE OF THEM; SURELY ALLAH DOES NOT GUIDE THE UNJUST PEOPLE. (Qu'ran 5:50-51)" ?

Before anybody can understand the verse under discussion it is important to understand the context of this Surah and the situation under which this verse was revealed.

In the last stages of prophetic mission in Medinah, Muslims had emerged as a dominant power and had set up a society of their own. At the same time, the polytheists of Makkah as well as Jews and Christians had also established setups and in case of an armed conflict, it seemed that any of them could have emerged as victorious. In such an environment the hypocrites amongst Muslims maintained ties with Jews and Christians and supported them in secret. Their support was in order to safeguard their interests with whoever the victorious party would be. In addition, the hypocrites obviously had not accepted Islam from within their hearts and their conversion to Islam had not affected their ties with Muslims' opponents.

It is in this context that Quran revealed the following verses specifically admonishing these hypocrites amongst Muslims:

"O believers, do not take the Jews and the Christians as your friends and protectors, they are friends of each other. And whoever makes them a friend then he is from amongst them. Verily God does not guide the unjust people. And you will see that those (Muslims) in whose hearts is a disease run towards them saying 'We fear that a calamity may befall us.' So God will soon bring victory or a decision from Him, causing them regret on account of the thoughts they harbored in their hearts." (Quran 5:51-52)
The explanation above should depict the correct meaning of the verses under discussion.

In addition to the general context, it should also be noted that Quran has used the words 'the Jews' and 'the Christians' making it very clear that it is a specific group of Jews and Christians and this verse is not a general prescription. The attitude of these people has been explained further in the following verses for instance:

"O you who believe! do not take for friends and protectors those who take your religion for a mockery and a joke, from among those who were given the Book before you and the unbelievers; and be careful of (your duty to) Allah if you are believers. And when you call to prayer they make it a mockery and a joke; this is because they are a people who do not understand." (Quran 5:57-58)
As it can be clearly seen, the Jews and Christians mentioned above are those 'who take your religion for a mockery and a joke.'

In view of the above explanation, I believe these verses should not be taken to be a general directive of the relationship with Jews and Christians. Instead the relationship with the people of other faiths should only be avoided when it becomes harmful for Muslims, and otherwise they should feel free to enjoy a comfortable relationship with Jews and Christians.

This is one of the interpretations
-------------------------------

Btw you're saying that muslims believe they shouldn't be friends with Jews.

And how about JTF and You Chaim ben pesach, would you ever befriend a muslim? Or take them as protectors? No i'm sure you wouldn't because you believe them to be the enemy. And you also believe in the commandment that you should Kill them before they Kill you.

Offline Raulmarrio2000

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Re: JTF Listen to me please.
« Reply #53 on: November 07, 2007, 02:56:03 PM »
Sarah, are you really a Muslim. How you feel about so many posts against Islam in this forum? Why do you still come here? Are you not affected by so many insults?

Offline Sarah

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Re: JTF Listen to me please.
« Reply #54 on: November 07, 2007, 02:57:01 PM »
Quote
Mohammed, the founder of Islam, also became a "moderate" when he signed a "peace treaty" with the tribe Quriesh. Mohammed promised Quriesh 10 years of "peace", which he called a "hudnah" (cessation of hostilities). Two years after signing the treaty, Mohammed and the Muslims staged a surprise attack on Quriesh and murdered or enslaved every man, woman and child in the tribe.

What attack was this? You are talking about the treaty of Hudaybiyyah..............

In 628 AD, a group of 1,400 Muslims marched towards Mecca, in an attempt to perform the pilgrimage. The group was prepared with animals of sacrifice, as they hoped that the Quraish would honour the Arabian custom of allowing unarmed pilgrims to enter the city. The Quraish, however, intercepted the Muslim party well outside Mecca. By this time all of Arabia was aware of the military strength of the Muslims. Muhammad, the leader of the Muslims, wanted to avoid bloodshed in or near the holiest city of Islam. He said: (Bukhari B3V50H891)

We have not come to fight anyone, but to perform the 'Umra. No doubt, the war has weakened Quraish and they have suffered great losses, so if they wish, I will conclude a truce with them, during which they should refrain from interfering between me and the people, and if I have victory over those infidels, Quraish will have the option to embrace Islam as the other people do, if they wish; they will at least get strong enough to fight. But if they do not accept the truce, by Allah in Whose Hands my life is, I will fight with them defending my Cause till I get killed, but (I am sure) Allah will definitely make His Cause victorious.

The two parties decided to resolve the matter through diplomacy, rather than warfare. Hence the Quranic reference to the Sakina or Spirit of Peace. "He it is Who sent down the sakina into the hearts of the believers that they might add faith unto their faith" (48:4).

A treaty was drawn up.


The basic outline of the treaty was as follows:

"In the name of God. These are the conditions of Peace between Muhammad (SAW), son of Abdullah and Suhayl ibn Amr the envoy of Mecca. There will be no fighting for ten years. Anyone who wishes to join Muhammad (SAW) and to enter into any agreement with him is free to do so. Anyone who wishes to join the Quraish and to enter into any agreement with them is free to do so. A young man, or one whose father is alive, if he goes to Muhammad without permission from his father or guardian, will be returned to his father or guardian. But if anyone goes to the Quraish, he will not be returned. This year Muhammad (SAW) will go back without entering Mecca. But next year he and his followers can enter Mecca, spend three days, perform the circuit. During these three days the Quraish will withdraw to the surrounding hills. When Muhammad and his followers enter into Mecca, they will be unarmed except for sheathed swords which wayfarers in Arabia always have with them." (Bukhari)


The treaty was quite controversial for many reasons. Originally the treaty referred to Muhammad as the Messenger of God which was unacceptable to the Quraish ambassador Suhayl ibn Amr. Muhammad ordered Ali to strike it out, but Ali refused, after which Muhammad himself rubbed the words. (Sahih Bukhari 3:49:62, Sahih Muslim 19:4404). An objection was made by the muslims over one clause of the treaty that said that any member of Makkah entering Medina is eligible to be returned back to Makkah (if they want), while any muslim entering Makkah is not eligible to be returned to the Muslims even if Muhammad wanted. ((Sahih Bukhari 3:50:874)

After the signing of the treaty, there was still great fury amongst the Muslim side for they did not like the stipulations of the treaty. Muhammad, binding onto the Islamic ethic "Fulfill every promise" ordered that Muslims do exactly as the treaty says. A few muslims, especially Umar bin Khattab strongly objected to the treaty, and even went on as far as regarding Muhammad's decision to be wrong. Many muslims thereafter objected, when Muhammad told them (thrice) to perform their rites there and then. Later, Muhammad's wife Umm-Salama came and convinced Muhammad to perform at least his share of the rites. (Sahih Bukhari 3:50:891)


In 629 AD, the Muslims made The first pilgrimage. Two years later, in 630 AD, a skirmish between the Bedouin tribe of Khuza'a and the Banu Bakr tribe which was an ally of the Quraysh occurred; this was a breach of the treaty as one of the clauses of the treaty was 'An attack on an ally of the party, will be considered an attack on the party itself'. Muhammad offered the Quraish three alternatives:

1.Dissolve their alliance with the Banu Bakr.
2.Compensate by paying blood money.
3.State that the treaty stood dissolved.

The Quraish chose the third alternative. Thus, Muhammad was left with 'no alternative' but to march on Mecca. He, along with 10000 men, marched to Mecca where he gave orders that no old or sick man, children, men who dropped their arms, men who stayed in their homes, or people who stayed in Abu Sufyan's home were not to be harmed and no trees were to be cut. Thus, there was no bloodshed in the conquest.

Islam spread widely and quickly during the two years that the treaty was in effect. While Muhammad had one thousand four hundred followers when he signed the treaty in Hudaybiyya, he had well over ten thousand for his conquest of Mecca two years later

Offline Mstislav

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Re: JTF Listen to me please.
« Reply #55 on: November 07, 2007, 02:59:28 PM »
Sarah, what source did you use? If the koran was specifically addressing hypocrite muslims, it would have said so.
The satanic barbaric deathcult of islam spread like a cancer throughout the world, killing and destroying everything it touches. muslims are like the hiv/aids virus, subverting the societies of non muslim lands only to allow the cancer of islam to consume and destroy. muslim, I curse and hate you, your 'prophet', 'g o d' and deathcult.   
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Because the West needs to be won again and the stakes couldn't be higher . . .

Offline Dexter

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Re: JTF Listen to me please.
« Reply #56 on: November 07, 2007, 03:03:43 PM »
Sarah, are you really a Muslim. How you feel about so many posts against Islam in this forum? Why do you still come here? Are you not affected by so many insults?


She is not a Muslim. She became a Noahide but her father is an Arab Muslim Nazi and her mother is a British convert to Islam. Sarah is conflicted and confused but real Muslims would want to kill her for being an infidel.

Sarah is NOT a Muslim because she doesn't want to kill us.


I don't think calling her father a Nazi is OK.
Sarah..?
Not a foreign land we took and not with foreign possession but a land that belong to our ancestors that was occupied without a trial. And when we had the opportunity, we took our land back.
-Shimon Maccabee's answer to Antiochus VII Sidetes.

"When fighting monsters, be wary not to become one... When you gaze into the abyss, it also gazes into you."
- Friedrich Nietzsche

newman

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Re: JTF Listen to me please.
« Reply #57 on: November 07, 2007, 03:04:17 PM »
Sarah, what source did you use? If the koran was specifically addressing hypocrite muslims, it would have said so.

Sarah is a victim of taqqiya. These claims about misinterpretation are false. Islamic  clerics ALL misinterpret the koran if this were to be true.

Offline Mstislav

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Re: JTF Listen to me please.
« Reply #58 on: November 07, 2007, 03:06:48 PM »
She is not a Muslim. She became a Noahide but her father is an Arab Muslim Nazi and her mother is a British convert to Islam.

How tragic :( My condolances, I hope that one day she leaves islam.



The satanic barbaric deathcult of islam spread like a cancer throughout the world, killing and destroying everything it touches. muslims are like the hiv/aids virus, subverting the societies of non muslim lands only to allow the cancer of islam to consume and destroy. muslim, I curse and hate you, your 'prophet', 'g o d' and deathcult.   
__________________________________________________________


Because the West needs to be won again and the stakes couldn't be higher . . .

Offline Zionist Revolutionary

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Re: JTF Listen to me please.
« Reply #59 on: November 07, 2007, 03:08:49 PM »
All this on the day that Pat Roberson endorses Rudy Giuliani for the Republican primaries.

This world is going mad.

Offline Lubab

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Re: JTF Listen to me please.
« Reply #60 on: November 07, 2007, 03:09:03 PM »
Quote
Also, Muslims are allowed to have Jewish friends, there is no place in the Quran that says that it isn't allowed.

Really, Dexter? Do you know the whole Koran well enough to say that?


Have you read the Koran at: 5:50-51 where it says:

"... O YOU WHO BELIEVE! DO NOT TAKE THE JEWS AND THE CHRISTIANS FOR FRIENDS; THEY ARE FRIENDS OF EACH OTHER; AND WHOEVER AMONGST YOU TAKES THEM FOR A FRIEND, THEN SURELY HE IS ONE OF THEM; SURELY ALLAH DOES NOT GUIDE THE UNJUST PEOPLE. (Qu'ran 5:50-51)" ?

Before anybody can understand the verse under discussion it is important to understand the context of this Surah and the situation under which this verse was revealed.

In the last stages of prophetic mission in Medinah, Muslims had emerged as a dominant power and had set up a society of their own. At the same time, the polytheists of Makkah as well as Jews and Christians had also established setups and in case of an armed conflict, it seemed that any of them could have emerged as victorious. In such an environment the hypocrites amongst Muslims maintained ties with Jews and Christians and supported them in secret. Their support was in order to safeguard their interests with whoever the victorious party would be. In addition, the hypocrites obviously had not accepted Islam from within their hearts and their conversion to Islam had not affected their ties with Muslims' opponents.

It is in this context that Quran revealed the following verses specifically admonishing these hypocrites amongst Muslims:

"O believers, do not take the Jews and the Christians as your friends and protectors, they are friends of each other. And whoever makes them a friend then he is from amongst them. Verily G-d does not guide the unjust people. And you will see that those (Muslims) in whose hearts is a disease run towards them saying 'We fear that a calamity may befall us.' So G-d will soon bring victory or a decision from Him, causing them regret on account of the thoughts they harbored in their hearts." (Quran 5:51-52)
The explanation above should depict the correct meaning of the verses under discussion.

In addition to the general context, it should also be noted that Quran has used the words 'the Jews' and 'the Christians' making it very clear that it is a specific group of Jews and Christians and this verse is not a general prescription. The attitude of these people has been explained further in the following verses for instance:

"O you who believe! do not take for friends and protectors those who take your religion for a mockery and a joke, from among those who were given the Book before you and the unbelievers; and be careful of (your duty to) Allah if you are believers. And when you call to prayer they make it a mockery and a joke; this is because they are a people who do not understand." (Quran 5:57-58)
As it can be clearly seen, the Jews and Christians mentioned above are those 'who take your religion for a mockery and a joke.'

In view of the above explanation, I believe these verses should not be taken to be a general directive of the relationship with Jews and Christians. Instead the relationship with the people of other faiths should only be avoided when it becomes harmful for Muslims, and otherwise they should feel free to enjoy a comfortable relationship with Jews and Christians.

This is one of the interpretations
-------------------------------

Btw you're saying that muslims believe they shouldn't be friends with Jews.

And how about JTF and You Chaim ben pesach, would you ever befriend a muslim? Or take them as protectors? No i'm sure you wouldn't because you believe them to be the enemy. And you also believe in the commandment that you should Kill them before they Kill you.

This looks like a taquiya explanation of this verse if I ever saw one. The verse clearly says "BELIEVERS, do not take the Jews as friends etc." It does not admonish the hypocrites. The word "hypocryte is not even used there at all.


If find it interesting that Dexter added in the word "certain" Jews. Does that word appear in the Arabic? If not, why is it not in your translation? If so, which Jews are they referring to.

Of course JTF and Chaim ben Pesach will not befriend a Nazi ideology that has called for the destruction of his people!
Why would we do such an insane thing?


Sarah, you sound like every other Muslim out there trying to whitewash the hatred that is so obvious in their Koran. I am not impressed by this explanation or this tactic in the least bit.


"It is not upon you to finish the work, nor are you free to desist from it." Rabbi Tarfon, Pirkei Avot.

Offline Lubab

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Re: JTF Listen to me please.
« Reply #61 on: November 07, 2007, 03:11:36 PM »
Sarah is NOT a Muslim because she doesn't want to kill us. 

Yes but she defends the book which does.

« Last Edit: November 07, 2007, 03:18:29 PM by Yacov Menashe Ben Rachamim »
"It is not upon you to finish the work, nor are you free to desist from it." Rabbi Tarfon, Pirkei Avot.

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Re: JTF Listen to me please.
« Reply #62 on: November 07, 2007, 03:14:51 PM »
Sarah is NOT a Muslim because she doesn't want to kill us.

Yes but she defends the book which does.

I fear we may have lost her to that arab cult.

I'm just beside myself and really heartbroken. :'(

May G_d watch over dear Sarah all of her days.

« Last Edit: November 07, 2007, 03:17:54 PM by Yacov Menashe Ben Rachamim »

Offline Dexter

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Re: JTF Listen to me please.
« Reply #63 on: November 07, 2007, 03:15:29 PM »
lubab, actually I took the translation from a Quran site, I didn't added a thing.
Not a foreign land we took and not with foreign possession but a land that belong to our ancestors that was occupied without a trial. And when we had the opportunity, we took our land back.
-Shimon Maccabee's answer to Antiochus VII Sidetes.

"When fighting monsters, be wary not to become one... When you gaze into the abyss, it also gazes into you."
- Friedrich Nietzsche

Offline Cojpe

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Re: JTF Listen to me please.
« Reply #64 on: November 07, 2007, 03:38:54 PM »
If they are really moderate, they are not Muslims.


Exactly what I waned to post, Yacov O0

One can be muslim or not.
Some of them may look like "moderate" or "nonpracticing islam" but as far as I know, they will very well remember what they believe when its needed, even if he is a nice person.
Otherwise he is not muslim at all.

Muslims from Bosnia for example doesent look like muslims at all, woman wear make up, man drink alcohol.
When  when it comes to confrontation with "nonbelievers" they are muslims like any other muslims on planet.

I personally hung, go to school, work, with lots of muslims from Balkan (thats where I live) still, wouldn't go so far to call those my friends.

They usually are very nice while they are in minority.

They all have same goal, I don't care if they go for pray 5 times per day every day or not, or if hes think of allah or some hot chick during hes pray :)

They all want to cleanse the world from all other religions, by any means necessary.

I agree that we shouldn't insult anyone, if it makes a bad picture of this forum.
But please people, keep that "I have two Muslim friends" story for youself ;)

Better ask yourself if your "friends" see you the same way.

Offline Lubab

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Re: JTF Listen to me please.
« Reply #65 on: November 07, 2007, 03:39:46 PM »
lubab, actually I took the translation from a Quran site, I didn't added a thing.

This is the translation from the islamacity.com website.
http://www.islamicity.com/mosque/QURAN/5.htm

Chapter 5
"51. O ye who believe! take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors: They are but friends and protectors to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them. Verily Allah guideth not a people unjust."

It does not contain this word "certain" and this is a Muslim website. I would trust this website more because it has been around longer. In more recent version that are publically availabe Muslims have started adding in deceptive terms like "certain" and "in a time of war" to try and hide the truth about their religion.

Look it up in the Arabic and I bet it does not say "certain". Just look at the way it says "he amongst you that turns to them is OF THEM" as if it's some kind of crime to support Jews who are defending themselves. The whole book is full of this Nazi hate. Did the Jews do something to deserve this?




« Last Edit: November 07, 2007, 03:45:56 PM by lubab »
"It is not upon you to finish the work, nor are you free to desist from it." Rabbi Tarfon, Pirkei Avot.

Offline Dexter

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Re: JTF Listen to me please.
« Reply #66 on: November 07, 2007, 03:42:25 PM »
lubab, actually I took the translation from a Quran site, I didn't added a thing.

This is the translation from the islamacity.com website.
http://www.islamicity.com/mosque/QURAN/5.htm

Chapter 5
"51. O ye who believe! take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors: They are but friends and protectors to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them. Verily Allah guideth not a people unjust."

It does not contain this word "certain" and this is a Muslim website. I would trust this website more because it has been around longer. In more recent version that are publically availabe Muslims have started adding in deceptive terms like "certain" and "in a time of war" to try and hide the truth about their religion.

Look it up in the Arabic and I bet it does not say "certain"



I think you are right because most of the site have this type of translation.
By the way, here is a site responding to the verse:
http://www.omeriqbal.com/a/13
Not a foreign land we took and not with foreign possession but a land that belong to our ancestors that was occupied without a trial. And when we had the opportunity, we took our land back.
-Shimon Maccabee's answer to Antiochus VII Sidetes.

"When fighting monsters, be wary not to become one... When you gaze into the abyss, it also gazes into you."
- Friedrich Nietzsche

Offline Sarah

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Re: JTF Listen to me please.
« Reply #67 on: November 07, 2007, 03:45:20 PM »
lubab, actually I took the translation from a Quran site, I didn't added a thing.

This is the translation from the islamacity.com website.
http://www.islamicity.com/mosque/QURAN/5.htm

Chapter 5
"51. O ye who believe! take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors: They are but friends and protectors to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them. Verily Allah guideth not a people unjust."

It does not contain this word "certain" and this is a Muslim website. I would trust this website more because it has been around longer. In more recent version that are publically availabe Muslims have started adding in deceptive terms like "certain" and "in a time of war" to try and hide the truth about their religion.

Look it up in the Arabic and I bet it does not say "certain"



I think you are right because most of the site have this type of translation.
By the way, here is a site responding to the verse:
http://www.omeriqbal.com/a/13

Thats the site I got my arguement from.

In arabic it does not read directly as being all Jews or Christians, but this is later understood in the following verses where it speaks of the Jews and Christians who were initiating set-ups against the prophet......people say the verse then refers to them, and not Jews in general.

Offline Lubab

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Re: JTF Listen to me please.
« Reply #68 on: November 07, 2007, 03:47:29 PM »
lubab, actually I took the translation from a Quran site, I didn't added a thing.

This is the translation from the islamacity.com website.
http://www.islamicity.com/mosque/QURAN/5.htm

Chapter 5
"51. O ye who believe! take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors: They are but friends and protectors to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them. Verily Allah guideth not a people unjust."

It does not contain this word "certain" and this is a Muslim website. I would trust this website more because it has been around longer. In more recent version that are publically availabe Muslims have started adding in deceptive terms like "certain" and "in a time of war" to try and hide the truth about their religion.

Look it up in the Arabic and I bet it does not say "certain"



I think you are right because most of the site have this type of translation.
By the way, here is a site responding to the verse:
http://www.omeriqbal.com/a/13

That's funny Sarah used the exact same words to respond to the same question! What a coincidence.  ::)

Sarah should realize that the point of this guy's website is to convert people to Islam and in his explanation even he states that his explanation is just his opinion. There is no indication whatsoever that his view is accepted among Muslim clerics.

And even if it was accepted, I would like to know which Jews he is refferring to? The ones who defend themselves? The one's who stay true to the Torah and don't accept this new false religion?

This explanation is itself sickening.
« Last Edit: November 07, 2007, 03:52:05 PM by lubab »
"It is not upon you to finish the work, nor are you free to desist from it." Rabbi Tarfon, Pirkei Avot.

Offline Sarah

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Re: JTF Listen to me please.
« Reply #69 on: November 07, 2007, 03:51:31 PM »
Quote
This looks like a taquiya explanation of this verse if I ever saw one. The verse clearly says "BELIEVERS, do not take the Jews as friends etc." It does not admonish the hypocrites. The word "hypocryte is not even used there at all.


I didn't write the explanation but I do not deny it. The verse says : "O you who Believe", stating it as a warning to the muslims of that time, not to follow the hypocrite muslims who sided with the Jewish and Christians so that whoever won the war, they would be accepted on both sides.


Quote
Of course JTF and Chaim ben Pesach will not befriend a Nazi ideology that has called for the destruction of his people!
Why would we do such an insane thing?

Well some muslims have the same argument. They won't befriend Jews because of the Israel-Arab conflict.

Quote
Sarah, you sound like every other Muslim out there trying to whitewash the hatred that is so obvious in their Koran. I am not impressed by this explanation or this tactic in the least bit.  


So is what I stated not valid?

Offline Sarah

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Re: JTF Listen to me please.
« Reply #70 on: November 07, 2007, 03:53:52 PM »
lubab, actually I took the translation from a Quran site, I didn't added a thing.

This is the translation from the islamacity.com website.
http://www.islamicity.com/mosque/QURAN/5.htm

Chapter 5
"51. O ye who believe! take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors: They are but friends and protectors to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them. Verily Allah guideth not a people unjust."

It does not contain this word "certain" and this is a Muslim website. I would trust this website more because it has been around longer. In more recent version that are publically availabe Muslims have started adding in deceptive terms like "certain" and "in a time of war" to try and hide the truth about their religion.

Look it up in the Arabic and I bet it does not say "certain"



I think you are right because most of the site have this type of translation.
By the way, here is a site responding to the verse:
http://www.omeriqbal.com/a/13

That's funny Sarah used the exact same words to respond to the same question! What a coincidence.  ::)

Sarah should realize that the point of this guy's website is to convert people to Islam and in his explanation even he states that his explanation is just his opinion. There is no indication whatsoever that his view is accepted among Muslim clerics.

And even if it was accepted, I would like to know which Jews he is refferring to? The ones who defend themselves? The one's who stay true to the Torah and don't accept this new false religion?

This explanation is itself sickening.

Hey, Lubab, who is Elijah?

Offline Lubab

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Re: JTF Listen to me please.
« Reply #71 on: November 07, 2007, 03:57:53 PM »
Quote
This looks like a taquiya explanation of this verse if I ever saw one. The verse clearly says "BELIEVERS, do not take the Jews as friends etc." It does not admonish the hypocrites. The word "hypocryte is not even used there at all.


I didn't write the explanation but I do not deny it. The verse says : "O you who Believe", stating it as a warning to the muslims of that time, not to follow the hypocrite muslims who sided with the Jewish and Christians so that whoever won the war, they would be accepted on both sides.


Quote
Of course JTF and Chaim ben Pesach will not befriend a Nazi ideology that has called for the destruction of his people!
Why would we do such an insane thing?

Well some muslims have the same argument. They won't befriend Jews because of the Israel-Arab conflict.

Quote
Sarah, you sound like every other Muslim out there trying to whitewash the hatred that is so obvious in their Koran. I am not impressed by this explanation or this tactic in the least bit.  


So is what I stated not valid?


Yes what you stated is not valid.
Let's say I accept your explanation.
If there were Muslims who secretely were hoping for the Jews to win in any way they should be praised, not admonished. The Bible is very clear that those who support the Jews are blessed and those who don't are cursed.

Where does Islam come off supplanting the word of G-d and claiming that you're a hypocrite if you even contemplate supporting the Jews.

Right away you can see how evil a religion it is. A religion at war with the true G-d of Israel, the G-d of the Bible which will never be replaced or changed.

« Last Edit: November 07, 2007, 03:59:48 PM by lubab »
"It is not upon you to finish the work, nor are you free to desist from it." Rabbi Tarfon, Pirkei Avot.

Offline Lubab

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Re: JTF Listen to me please.
« Reply #72 on: November 07, 2007, 04:01:05 PM »
lubab, actually I took the translation from a Quran site, I didn't added a thing.

This is the translation from the islamacity.com website.
http://www.islamicity.com/mosque/QURAN/5.htm

Chapter 5
"51. O ye who believe! take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors: They are but friends and protectors to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them. Verily Allah guideth not a people unjust."

It does not contain this word "certain" and this is a Muslim website. I would trust this website more because it has been around longer. In more recent version that are publically availabe Muslims have started adding in deceptive terms like "certain" and "in a time of war" to try and hide the truth about their religion.

Look it up in the Arabic and I bet it does not say "certain"



I think you are right because most of the site have this type of translation.
By the way, here is a site responding to the verse:
http://www.omeriqbal.com/a/13

That's funny Sarah used the exact same words to respond to the same question! What a coincidence.  ::)

Sarah should realize that the point of this guy's website is to convert people to Islam and in his explanation even he states that his explanation is just his opinion. There is no indication whatsoever that his view is accepted among Muslim clerics.

And even if it was accepted, I would like to know which Jews he is refferring to? The ones who defend themselves? The one's who stay true to the Torah and don't accept this new false religion?

This explanation is itself sickening.

Hey, Lubab, who is Elijah?

Sarah,  you are the one on both sides of the fence here. Not me.


Another example of how the Koran steals concepts from the Torah but replaces "Jews" with "Muslims". When did this change take place, because some mass-murderer and child rapist demon possesed nut named Mohammed says so?
« Last Edit: November 07, 2007, 04:02:40 PM by lubab »
"It is not upon you to finish the work, nor are you free to desist from it." Rabbi Tarfon, Pirkei Avot.

ftf

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Re: JTF Listen to me please.
« Reply #73 on: November 07, 2007, 04:28:50 PM »
Problems with your argument, Sarah, a core concept of Islam is that the Quran is the eternal word of Allah, if it is such, how can a verse be relevent at a particular time only? You insist on a particular translation, saying it is what the arabic really says, are you fluent in arabic to know this? If Islam is peaceful, becoming a muslim would not have meant that you had to stand with one armed gang (mo's) against the defences of the christian and Jewish groups.

Regarding your talk about the breaking of the truce, can you get me some evidence, quotes from some source or other, and not a random website saying that the Quraish broke the treaty?

Regarding the topic of this thread, I agree that we shouldn't be resorting to losw personal insults, we can and should oppose Islam, but if we are going to call them camel rapers or stuff like that, many people will not not even consider taking us seriously, and besides, it isn't always accurate, in fact it is often inaccurate, that's why it's an insult not a statement, and I personally don't see any place for insults anywhere in the world. I made this clear in my recent pm to Chaim, I have also made it clear that if JTF wants low insults to be the order of the day on it's forum, I wish to resign my post as a moderator.
« Last Edit: November 07, 2007, 04:44:31 PM by ftf »

Offline Sarah

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Re: JTF Listen to me please.
« Reply #74 on: November 07, 2007, 04:44:19 PM »
It isn't relevant to just that particular time, of course not but it was sent down as a message at the time for that certain problem, as well as being a message for muslims of all eras to follow. Many verses were sent as warnings during Muhammads time but it doesn't mean the message does not still apply.
Islam does not translate into the religion of piece, it means to surrender, to the will of God. Though through its teachings things should be carried out peacefully.
Here you are saying "against the defenses" when what the explanation said spoke of the Jews and Christians who were trying to create set-ups to catch Muhammad out. They weren't defending themselves at this point according to this view.

There were hadiths in that article, that I posted which I got from wikipedia, i'll find some other things.


Lubab muslims don't believe they are stealing them because the Quran is from the same God as was the Torah and thus the messages cannot change. They believe that after the children of Israel were punished and excessively questioned, God was angry with them and so sent down the next message, the bible-new testament-, but that was altered and so the final message was sent down to mankind and that was the Quran.