Kahanist Singles > Jewish Singles
To JSullivan: When will Chaim's rules for the dating sections be ready?
fake plastic trees:
--- Quote from: Yacov Menashe Ben Rachamim on November 26, 2006, 03:08:28 PM ---
--- Quote from: fake plastic trees on November 26, 2006, 07:58:59 AM ---
--- Quote from: Yacov Menashe Ben Rachamim on November 25, 2006, 09:46:52 PM ---
--- Quote from: thunderbolt on November 25, 2006, 08:55:03 PM ---The only thing I've heard that is anything like that is not kissing during a woman's period of menstruation.
--- End quote ---
A man can't even touch his wife or sleep in the same bed without having sex during her period. A man is not supposed to even shake hands with or in any way touch a woman who is not his wife, sister, mother, or daughter.
A man isn't even supposed to hear a woman sing unless she is his wife.
Not all Jews are strict about all these things. I used to believe in kissing before marriage and I thought not kissing before marriage was only being extra strict just like eating Glatt Kosher is a stricter version of eating kosher, although Jews are not required to keep Glatt Kosher. But it is Halacha, not just extra strictness. But the no kissing part is as far as I follow. That doesn't mean I think it is okay to break those other prohibitions. I'm just not as observant on those parts. I'm not even fully observant of Shabbat yet but I still accept that you must keep Shabbat and the fact that I don't fully observe it is a sin.
--- End quote ---
You can't seriously think that kissing before marriage is WRONG... if you hold those beliefs, you won't ever get married!
--- End quote ---
You are ignorant. How do you think religious Jews get married? Holding those beliefs makes it easier to get married because if you insist on kissing before marriage, a religious woman wouldn't want to marry you.
--- End quote ---
And how many of these religious women do you know?
LeChayim:
Yacov,
If you choose not to kiss a woman before marriage, that's obviously your prerogative. But be aware that you are making a sacrifice, because it does narrow the pool of available Jewish girls who might otherwise be right for you.
And if you're going to make such a sacrifice, you must explore for certain whether this is actually halachah. I maintain it is not. If I'm wrong - and I don't say this facetiously - show me. Where in the Torah - written or oral - can you find reference to this?
In this week's parsha (weekly Torah portion), we read that when Jacob met Rachel for the first time, he kissed her. This is not a Midrash, or some Rabbi's interpretation or opinion. It's written in plain Hebrew. "And Jacob kissed Rachel" (Gen 29:11). Seven verses later, we learn that they had fallen in love ("And Jacob loved Rachel"). We see from here that affection - as well as physical attraction ("And Rachel was of beautiful form and fair to look upon") - is an acceptable part of an evolving relationship between a man and a woman, before they get married or even engaged.
You ask "How do you think religious Jews get married?" Well, actually there is a crisis among religious communities regarding the issue. More and more men and women spend many years being single, because there is no format for courting, meeting the opposite sex, and developing a relationship. So they wait for someone to "set them up," while everyone is busy reviewing the other's resume instead of meeting, talking, physically interacting and falling in love.
You go to a wedding (a great place to meet the opposite sex), but you meet no one, because more and more weddings now have separate seating for men and women, due to the influence of the "more-frum-than-the-Torah" crowd.
A couple might get set up, but the date is awkward, because the two strangers feel somehow guilty if they lean too close to eachother across the table in the restaurant.
I'm happily married, and I met my wife when I was 24. I was (am) lucky. But it wouldn't have happened, had I not asked her out, kissed her, developed a relationship, and fallen in love.
Your level of observance is, of course your personal choice. But you've got to ask yourself whether you are following Halachah, or someone else's notion of "frumkiet."
adam613:
Wow! This turned into quite a discussion, Yakov. Yeah, I am 33 and single and I agree that it is almost impossible to meet people and their is a serious problem meeting people. Where I live the single women do not at all know where the single guys are even though there are single guys in the Jewish phone book in the area. It is so bad that one women thinks that no single men live here and said the community is the worst place for a single women as there are no single guys. The community treats the guys so badly that none of them feel comfortable. And they have even banned men from the community because one girl complained about the guy even though she wasn't nice to the guy either. So guys just stay away. I grew up Orthodox but stay home because where I live the Rabbi's I can't trust. They are all "women Rabbi's". I did find one shul with a Chabad Rabbi that I can't walked to on Shabbos but is about 10 miles away that the shul is nice. The congregation is MO even though the Rabbi is Chabad as they couldn't afford a full time Rabbi but the community was nice even though it was very small. I just brought this up because I guess I think that even if Chaim isn't in Israel he should still if he could try to get married which I understand is obviously difficult in his circumstances. You never know what can happen by posting something.
I have to say that I just am very alarmed at how feminism is so out of control in Orthodoxy today. The only men the women like are "Rabbi's" and men on top and the women want Rabbi's and the government to protect them but don't want a husband unless he acts like their girlfriend. In Genesis it says g-d created women to be man's helpmate but a lot of the Rabbi's like to hide behind women because they are less of a threat to their jobs then intelligent men are. Some of these Rabbi's constantly giving insincere flattery to women that they think if a man disagrees's with anything they say it is abuse. The Patriarchs and Matriarchs didn't see eye to eye on every issue. Can you can go out with women that are big feminists? Are their younger women that are not feminists?
The women also want to be able to divorce at the drop of a hat and get alimony and child support. This creates an environment where why should a woman want a man that is moral if they can divorce a guy at the drop of hat? When men divorce (even though some cases I think the men are acting selfishly) but they do have to compensate the women and many times have to give up the children. When the women divorces she gives nothing to the guy and only takes. This is called "equality". This is insane. So I just needed to let off some steam here.
LeChayim:
You hit the nail on the head with your first sentence. On the one hand, if you don't go where the religious women are, how will you find one? On the other hand, all the places where you can expect to see religious women are designed to keep you separated from them. And even if per chance you find yourself within 10 feet of a single women, you can't, G-d forbid, talk to her, much less ask her out. That would be immodest. So, what the "frum" crowd is telling you is that it's wrong to for men and women to meet. Are you obligated by Halachah to stay single?
There is no social network for singles, because the leaders of the Jewish communities (big surprise here) simply don't care. They're so concerned about looking frum that they're busy running around making sure a woman isn't seen in the same zip code as a guy she might be interested in. But they care nothing about the singles crisis, because their kids will get the best shiduch anyway. So they leave it up to the business sector to come up with costly organizations like frumster.
What exactly, according to whoever dictates these rules (and it is not mandated by the Torah), is a young man without well connected parents supposed to do to meet his mate? What is immodest about a man speaking to a woman - in good taste, of course - to see whether there is a mutual interest to persue a relationship? And I will give you a thousand-to-one that the ones who enforce these restrictions, and reinvent them to be more restrictive as each day passes, were themselves the biggest playboys (or worse) in their younger years.
I'm telling you, Yacov, it's a lie. A fraud. There is absolutely nothing wrong with a man persuing his mate. And to do that, you must somehow get her attention and gain her interest, and develop a mutual affection.
You don't necessarily have to date for recreational purposes, but recreation is a good start to get to know someone. If there is an interest after the first date, you have another one. And as time goes by, you decide whether you are right for eachother based on what you've learned in the time you've spent together. And if you break up, at least you tried. Nothing ventured, nothing gained.
And I'm not suggesting you passively fall in love, but you don't "choose" to love someone either. As the relationship progresses, you should develop mutual feelings toward eachother. You don't just walk up to someone and say "Good afternoon, ma'am. I'd like to consider you as a potential wife. Shall we discuss it over dinner." (Hmmm. On second thought, that might be a good pick-up line.)
Tzvi Ben Roshel1:
I didnt read all the posts here , but i came acroos about eating glat Kosher and Kosher - J Shabbat - eating only Glatt Kosher is allowed for Jews (Sefardim expecially) The Rabbis say that if its only "kosher" its Not allowed, soo its not just an extra stringency. also about other labels that claim to be koser - its a big problem becuase many of the companies are from Reform and conservative standards. for example- I asked my Professor ( who is a Conservative Jew, ( nice Guy though) ) whats the diff between them and Orthodox, he told me that for example they allow cheese that has chemicals made out of meat to be made and eaten with the cheese. But according to Halaha such a thing is assur (forbidden) and disguesting. this is a big problem expecially for Sefardim who say see it says k , or any other symbol that resembles kosher, but in reality we are being fooled that its kosher, where in fact in some cases its worse then eating a piece of non-kosher meat. (for example cheese with meat is worse then non- Kosher meat itself)
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