Non-Kosher Animal Meat (For The Gentiles)

[Dr. Dan]

you wrote "I have no wish for a debate between us, but if you wish to have one, I have no doubt that I could tear you apart, I may be but 17, but I have been in many religious debates, and I have never lost even a single point in any of them."

Them fightin' words.  I'm not suggesting doing it in public on this forum for those who dont' want to listen to it.  But if you're calling chaim out, and the two of you decide to do it in private, let me know..I would love to watch.

[Lisa]

FTF, you are WAY out of line here!  I don't care if you follow the Talmud or not.  But you do not come on a Jewish forum and say you have a negative opinion about one of Judaism's holiest books!  And don't you dare try and back away from your fighting words by saying you don't want to cause trouble.  I have news for you, FTF.  You already have!

Let me refresh your selective memory:

The foundation for this belief is found only in the Talmud, not in the Bible, and considering some of the other things that can be found in the Talmud, I don't think it should be trusted in any way whatsoever, Jews would of course disagree with me on this.

Now I'm an admin here, and I don't see the Jews saying that the NT should not be trusted whatsoever.  We don't follow its teachings, but no one here would be so stupid or tactless to post such an insulting comment!

And you continue:

And, yes, I do personally have a negative opinion of the Talmud. I do not however intend to say anything further on the matter.

I really don't care what you personally think of the Talmud.  You are entitled to your opinion.  But you don't come here and make such incendiary remarks, and then say you don't want to discuss it or cause trouble.  You already have caused trouble!

I have nothing I wish to settle, the topic came up, I gave my opinion, as far as I'm concerned, issue closed, unless someone wants to make something of it.

Don't even think of worming your way out of this one!

Arrogance? Ignorance? All I said is that some components of the Talmud give me a negative opinion of it. I would not say that if I did not have something to back it up, but as it is not something I really want to debate here, I have no intention of going into any detail. I do not think I am being particularly arrogant, you do not call me arrogant or ignorant when I tear Islamic texts apart, and if you look at my posts about them, you will see that I always back up my arguments in great detail, as I have not seen any Jews doing anything that I believe needs to be opposed based on what is written in Jewish scriptures, I see no need to attack them, but as a Christian, I cannot personally hold them (Jewish texts) in a positive light. I have no wish for a debate between us, but if you wish to have one, I have no doubt that I could tear you apart, I may be but 17, but I have been in many religious debates, and I have never lost even a single point in any of them.

HOW DARE YOU threaten to tear apart dear Chaim!  Would you ever go as a guest to a Jewish person's home, and make the comments you made here, then threaten to tear apart your host?  Well I have news for you, FTF.  This is Chaim's home on the web.  He pays for the hosting fees, and what he says goes!

I have no intention of causing upset or insult, and if I have done so I apologise, but surely, in a forum in which people follow different faiths, it is obvious that their views will differ. If we behave in a grown up manner, though, we should be able to accept our differing and work together for he common good.

Oh spare me that line about working together for the common good!  That only applies to people who are respectful, which you, clearly are not!

Now people, you know that I am for the most part very calm and easy going on this forum.  But this is the last straw.  You either apologize to Chaim and every Jew here, or I'll ban you myself!

[ftf]

I really had no intention of causing all of this upset, so, to address what Lisa has raised:

When I refer to tearing someone apart, I mean winning a debate against them, as in tearing up their points by picking logical holes in them, I do not mean anything physical.

From what I have seen of the Talmud it contains many expressly anti-Christian comments, and refers to Jesus Christ as a sorcerer, as being illegitimate, as burning in hell, and many other things, this is the basis for my negative opinion of the Talmud, if I have been deceived in some way and it truly does not say such things, I am sorry for having spoke negatively of it. If it does say these things, (I have seen quotes, so unless someone has falsified these quotes, it does), I can not be a Christian unless I am negative about it.

If you think that no one here is so negative about Christianity, you've been rather selective in which topics you've read...

Now if you want to ban me, don't bother, I will consider myself banned from now on and will not make another post unless I receive permission from you or another admin, I came here to fight Islam, but I refuse to throw away my faith in order to do so it is more important to me than my life.

[Lisa]

FTF, of course I realize you did not mean physically tearing Chaim apart.  But still, that language is very insulting.  And once again, I doubt you would go as a guest in the home of a Jew and address your host using such language. 

Now regarding the Talmud, I have not read it, so I can't say what the book does or doesn't say about Jesus.  On the other hand, I have been told there are passages in the NT that can be construed as being anti-Jewish.  But so what?  Does that mean I'm  going to go around acting like a victim and saying I can't be a Jew unless I criticize the NT?  No!  We don't want to go there.

As for my selective memory, there is a big difference between some people being sceptical about working with non-Jews, vs. someone openly belittling the religious texts of a different faith.  So while the leadership of JTF welcomes righteous gentiles in its movement, we do not tolerate having our holy books belittled, or having a member threaten to tear apart our leader. 

[MasterWolf1]

All I wanted to know was for Non Kosher food for Gentiles on this thread and anarchy breaks out??? LOL SHeesh

[Ambiorix]

From what I have seen of the Talmud it contains many expressly anti-Christian comments, and refers to Jesus Christ as a sorcerer, as being illegitimate, as burning in hell, and many other things, this is the basis for my negative opinion of the Talmud, if I have been deceived in some way and it truly does not say such things, I am sorry for having spoke negatively of it. If it does say these things, (I have seen quotes, so unless someone has falsified these quotes, it does), I can not be a Christian unless I am negative about it.

If you think that no one here is so negative about Christianity, you've been rather selective in which topics you've read...

ftf,

Keep on studying the Talmud vs. New Testament vs Kkkoran, then ask questions about it, then make your conclusions.
I think you still have a long way to go. But you really know already a lot for a young man.

did you think about this?
Maybe the New Testament is full of expressely anti-Jewish comments?
Maybe that's why Jews have been murdered defending their faith during the centuries in Diaspora?
Maybe that's why Jews have been murdered defending their nation/culture/history in the Nazi-camps?
Maybe that's why your comments are inevitably way out of line?

You say defending your faith is more important than your life.
I think you can take an example of the Jewish members of this forum.
All their ancestors for millennia have been doing that.
Do we want to loose the battle against our common enemies??
Do you want the Christians to betray on the Jews and Israel, so that HAMAS will drive them in the sea, before they come to eradicate us??
Mustn't the 2000 year old divisions be ignored, after all what history teaches us?
Everybody is doing some water in the wine, so we Christians are supposed to equally respect Jewish beliefs, as they respect ours.
That doesn't mean agree, just respect somebody with another opinion.
Even if there are posts that criticise Jesus, you should refrain from starting fighting over it.
Because the main purpose is to work together, to fight together, and who knows god forbid, to die together.

In order to respect someone's opinion, you have to study the basics where this opinion is based on.
Or at least make an attempt.
Citing quotes, isn't good enough. If you want to debate this, you need to do your homework.
Otherwise, you keep quiet.
In my opinion, you still have a bright future before you.
Just learn you cannot attack the leader of the organisation like that.

In any company, you'd be fired.
In the house of a muslim, you 'd be cut into pieces.

so ? Isn't this house tolerant?

What's it going to be? You choose for division, or for coalition?

[MasterWolf1]

I do not like people saying how I have to have my beliefs and I don't think its fair ftf that Christians do the same with Jews. We all have our beliefs.  Grant it I am not too familiar witht he Talmud as I am with the Christian Bible, but thats fine.  I am not going to slander their beliefs cause it is different then what I was taught by the nuns in school.

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

ftf- you dont even need Chaim to debate-  if you are so confident then watch and answer to me these questions presented http://www.torahanytime.com/rav_mizrachi.html 
 "The Debate - Rabbi vs. Christian  Part 1 and2" (I dont know maybe you are smarter then that missionary, and smarter then the previous pope and other priests who couldn't answer thse questions.)- (P.S.- if the admins dont want this public then you could P.M. me with your answers if you have any).

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

ftf, you are absolutely out of control. You are acting exactly like Anus-T.

Give us one good reason not to ban you.

[Ambiorix]

From what I have seen of the Talmud it contains many expressly anti-Christian comments, and refers to Jesus Christ as a sorcerer, as being illegitimate, as burning in hell, and many other things, this is the basis for my negative opinion of the Talmud, if I have been deceived in some way and it truly does not say such things, I am sorry for having spoke negatively of it. If it does say these things, (I have seen quotes, so unless someone has falsified these quotes, it does), I can not be a Christian unless I am negative about it.

You were most likely reading Anti-Semitic websites about Talmud "quotes". When The Talmud mentions Yeshu, it isn't referring to Jesus, because the Yeshu in question lived much earlier than the time of Jesus.

That  is maybe somethinf the YouTube crowd should be informed about!

[Dr. Dan]

Maybe the New Testament is full of expressely anti-Jewish comments?
Maybe that's why Jews have been murdered defending their faith during the centuries in Diaspora?
Maybe that's why Jews have been murdered defending their nation/culture/history in the Nazi-camps?
Maybe that's why your comments are inevitably way out of line?

FTF should know all about this because he is Jewish since since his mother's mother herself was a Jew who survived The Holocaust. This is how he treats his own people? His ancestors that died for Judaism would be ashamed of him.

FTF is only 17...how is it that his mother was a survivor of the Shoah unless she gave birth to him when she was 50..or her late 40's

[Dr. Dan]

Maybe the New Testament is full of expressely anti-Jewish comments?
Maybe that's why Jews have been murdered defending their faith during the centuries in Diaspora?
Maybe that's why Jews have been murdered defending their nation/culture/history in the Nazi-camps?
Maybe that's why your comments are inevitably way out of line?

FTF should know all about this because he is Jewish since since his mother's mother herself was a Jew who survived The Holocaust. This is how he treats his own people? His ancestors that died for Judaism would be ashamed of him.

FTF is only 17...how is it that his mother was a survivor of the Shoah unless she gave birth to him when she was 50..or her late 40's

I said his mother's mother, not his mother.

oops

[Kiwi]

FTF should know all about this because he is Jewish since since his mother's mother herself was a Jew who survived The Holocaust. This is how he treats his own people? His ancestors that died for Judaism would be ashamed of him.

Yacov have you ever thought what a stupid statement.

Can I ask you, have you family member that was in the Holocaust?

Not one of ftf's ancestors would be ashamed of him.

I am shocked you would even use that as a weapon against a fellow Jew.

 

[Nic Brookes]

The following is an easy solution:

Somebody proves to ftf that there is no reason for him to detest these Holy Writings of Judaism which he has taken offence to.

Could we ask Lubab in the Torah section?

[Ambiorix]

FTF should know all about this because he is Jewish since since his mother's mother herself was a Jew who survived The Holocaust. This is how he treats his own people? His ancestors that died for Judaism would be ashamed of him.

Yacov have you ever thought what a stupid statement.

Can I ask you, have you family member that was in the Holocaust?

Not one of ftf's ancestors would be ashamed of him.

I am shocked you would even use that as a weapon against a fellow Jew.

 

I know FTF chooses to call himself a Christian, fine, but FTF needs to learn a little kavod--honor for the 3000 years of tradition that his ancestors died for, instead of making a totally ignorant and arrogant statement based on the stupid websites that he's visiting.

exactly. I'd like to emphasise that respect for your ancestors is a requirement for Jews and Christians.
Falsify this statement, if my assumption is wrong.

[Kiwi]

FTF should know all about this because he is Jewish since since his mother's mother herself was a Jew who survived The Holocaust. This is how he treats his own people? His ancestors that died for Judaism would be ashamed of him.

Yacov have you ever thought what a stupid statement.

Can I ask you, have you family member that was in the Holocaust?

Not one of ftf's ancestors would be ashamed of him.

I am shocked you would even use that as a weapon against a fellow Jew.

 

I know FTF chooses to call himself a Christian, fine, but FTF needs to learn a little kavod--honor for the 3000 years of tradition that his ancestors died for, instead of making a totally ignorant and arrogant statement based on the stupid websites that he's visiting.

There is ways and means, and that statement Yacov made I think is unforgivable.

I don't care what ftf thinks he is or claims.

There are limits.

[Nic Brookes]

Limits have been overstepped on both sides. Can we all be mature please.

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

skippy dont attach Yakov. The fact remains what it is. First of all I didnt even know that ftf was Jewish (we still dont know because who said that his mothers mother was Halahically Jewish, maybe yes maybe no), but assuming she was, if she died or went through the holocaust becuase she was a Jew, then of-course she would be ashamed and disappointed at her offspring who went agains't Judaism (if knowingly), fact is that throughout history most Jews would have preferred their children slaughtered in front of them, then instead of going agains't Judaism. So assuming she was an average Jewish lady, then of course she would have been ashamed.

[Kiwi]

I am not attacking Yacov as a person, just using that statement I find highly offensive, regardless of who had written it, I would of said the same thing.

You all know I have deep respect of Yacov.

[Lisa]

Hey folks,

Can we please leave FTF's grandparents and parents out of this? 

After all, they're not really the issue.  Let me remind you that the issue is FTF's insensitive, belittling comments about the Talmud.  Nothing else. 

Like I wrote earlier, I have not read the Talmud.  So I don't know what is does, or doesn't say about Jesus.  But I find it interesting that the only people who criticize it are white nationalist neo nazis and Muslims.  How is it that Pat Robertson, and others like him don't have such complaints.  Sure they don't follow it.  But I've never heard of them complaining about how "evil" it is.  Still for those of you who are curious, asking Lubab would be a good idea.  But ultimately that's not the real issue either. 

Every religion teaches that theirs is the correct path.  The New Testament has parts that can be construed as being anti-semitic.  And there have been past Christian leaders who have made anti-Jewish comments.  So what?  Most Jews don't hate Chrisitians over that or wish them ill.   They certainly don't go around acting like victims over it.  And that is especially why I found FTF's comment offensive. 

[ftf]

I had agreed not to make any more posts until this issue was resolved, however, considering what has been posted here, I have requested and been granted permission to defend myself.

As my ancestry has been brought up, allow me to clarify, my mother's mother fled Germany to escape the holocaust, she was not a practising Jew, but she had Jewish blood, her mother, died in the gas chambers, she also was not a practising Jew, but had Jewish blood, I do not know anything about her parents though, so I cannot go any further back.

Also to clarify, I believe that Israel belongs to the Jews, and as a Christian I believe that I should think of Jews as close family members (this comes from the NT), and therefore as they are close family members, I should help them hold onto and protect their land.

Now, regarding what I said of the Talmud, all I said is that I have a negative opinion of it, I said this as it came up in the topic, I did not intend this as any kind of attack, this opinion could well be misplaced, if someone would like to prove that it is, I ask that they provide a link to what is in their opinion a reliable English translation of it, I do not ask for any arguments about it, just link me to a copy you would call accurate, and let me see if my opinion is misplaced, if it is, I will apologise for having stated that I have a negative opinion of it.

I would like to add that I am sorry if anything I have said on this issue has been personally insulting to anyone, I have not intended to be so, and if I have been I am truly sorry.

I would also like to add, that I consider the way that many members of this forum have spoken of me regarding this unacceptable, and considering the other things I could be putting the time to that I put to posting here, I will be leaving this forum if certain people do not apologise to me.

Unless this issue is cleared up in a positive manner, this will be my final post in this forum.

[JTFFan]

I agree with what Lisa wrote all the way!
Besides, when it comes to these issues, I was once a Christian so I understand it better than if I had never been one.
I just don't think the Talmud should have even been mentioned at all, I mean why was it even mentioned anyways? All I know is that currently many muslim and other nazi groups go around posting attacks against it. They make up quotes or twist others and then post them in books or online and say "SEE, SEE it's in their Talmud!". I also think people must be sensitive to the matter. I am not a Talmud expert and I never will, and others (including me) should should not mention it if we don't really know it. It is something that those who do, make a serious study of it, not alone but with either a partner or a class.

I do invite you, FTF, to hear a free lecture about the attacks against the Talmud .
Here is what the website says:

Does the Talmud Condone Murder, Pedophilia, and Idolatry?
In a shocking assault on Judaism, anti-Semitic groups make a forceful argument that the Talmud, the sacred compendium of the Oral Torah, advocates the vilest crimes known to man. Tragically, these despicable allegations are made by both Christian and Moslem anti-Semites. How is it possible to slander this revered tome which contains the sacred moral foundation of the Jewish faith? In this eye-opening presentation, Rabbi Singer steps forward to expose some of the most vicious and deceptive charges made against the sages of Israel . He demonstrates how statement in the Talmud are manipulated and misquoted by anti-Semites in order to slander the children of Israel.
Download    
   Listen       Order    

Here's the link:
http://outreachjudaism.org/mp3/Attack%20on%20Talmud.mp3

If that doesn't work try this one:
(You will have to scroll all the way down. Its the second to the last lecture.http://www.outreachjudaism.org/biblical.html#

ok, thanks for the link to it.

[Dr. Dan]

I had agreed not to make any more posts until this issue was resolved, however, considering what has been posted here, I have requested and been granted permission to defend myself.

As my ancestry has been brought up, allow me to clarify, my mother's mother fled Germany to escape the holocaust, she was not a practising Jew, but she had Jewish blood, her mother, died in the gas chambers, she also was not a practising Jew, but had Jewish blood, I do not know anything about her parents though, so I cannot go any further back.

Also to clarify, I believe that Israel belongs to the Jews, and as a Christian I believe that I should think of Jews as close family members (this comes from the NT), and therefore as they are close family members, I should help them hold onto and protect their land.

Now, regarding what I said of the Talmud, all I said is that I have a negative opinion of it, I said this as it came up in the topic, I did not intend this as any kind of attack, this opinion could well be misplaced, if someone would like to prove that it is, I ask that they provide a link to what is in their opinion a reliable English translation of it, I do not ask for any arguments about it, just link me to a copy you would call accurate, and let me see if my opinion is misplaced, if it is, I will apologise for having stated that I have a negative opinion of it.

I would like to add that I am sorry if anything I have said on this issue has been personally insulting to anyone, I have not intended to be so, and if I have been I am truly sorry.

I would also like to add, that I consider the way that many members of this forum have spoken of me regarding this unacceptable, and considering the other things I could be putting the time to that I put to posting here, I will be leaving this forum if certain people do not apologise to me.

Unless this issue is cleared up in a positive manner, this will be my final post in this forum.

Personally, FTF, for what it's worth, I forgive you. I would like to add, however, that it would be a good idea, when you have the opportunity in college to a take course, if available, about Talmud and read some of it and learn about it.  From what I have read so far, it is quite an amazing text made by human beings so wise and ahead of their time. The type of logic and arguements is astounding!!! I think there is no text out there created by human beings that can come even close to what is written in the Talmud. There are certain conclusions that people today make of what the Rabbis back then concluded that i might disagree with, but that's it..it doesn't make me right or wrong to simply disagree or have a different opinion...We are all mortal and are capable of making mistakes with our interpretations of books made by wise people..and books inspired by Gd's finger.  So, I do appreciate your apology and I, for one, forgive you.  But when you head to college, look for a course about Talmud and at least get a sample of what this amazing book says. I'm not telling you to become an expert in it or a rabbi or convert or anything. I just want you to see what it is.

The Kabbala on the other hand is meant to be a secret.  I personally will not go near it or draw any type of conclusion on it except for the fact that it is very very very deep and that I will leave it to the righteous experts to study it.  The Kabballa is not the way to go if one is devoid of Torah AND Talmud...You have to start with knowing Torah really well first...and then knowing Talmud really well second..than you need to be 40 years old, married, and with children and then you can learn Kabballa and know its true deep meaning.

[newman]

Reincarnated into this world?

The foundation for this belief is found only in the Talmud, not in the Bible, and considering some of the other things that can be found in the Talmud, I don't think it should be trusted in any way whatsoever, Jews would of course disagree with me on this.

Actually its found in the Kabbalah, not Talmud.

"and considering some of the other things that can be found in the Talmud" - what do you mean by this? Is this a negative imply?

I think no one here as a right to comment about the Kabbalah unless they are a Torah and Talmud scholar over a certain age, a male, and married with children...

If you are going to apply that kind of logic to your holy books, it should be applied to everyone's holy books, that would mean that we can't comment about the Quran or Hadiths either.

The very idea you are suggesting makes no sense, if a book contains information from G-d intended for people, G-d will have made sure the people can understand it.

Not so.

Just as novice priests don't learn rights of exorcism and 7th grade physics students don't learn the Theory of Relativity, novice Torah schollars don't learn Kabbalah. These higher aspects require solid grounding in the fundamentals before they can be effectively tackled.

[Lisa]

FTF are you aiming for the Shahid Oscar Award or something?

It is obvious that Christians follow only the NT, whereas the Jews follow the Torah and the Talmud.  So if you didn't want to start an argument about the Talmud, you should have just kept your mouth shut.  But to keep on repeating that you don't want an argument after making several belittling comments about our holy book is just plain hostile and passive aggressive.  And you didn't even leave it at that!  You then put the onus on all of us to defend our faith!  So you can just stop acting like a victim this minute!  Your martyr routine is getting very old, and you will not win your Shahid Oscar award here!