Rabbi Ovadia Yosef question (NOT a flame)

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

Hello--

I have a simple question I'd like an answer for. I know many people at JTF are fond of the Sephardic Torah Scholar Rabbi Ovadia Yosef. I'd like for one or more of those who support him to answer a basic question I have:

Can you please explain, from Torahic/Talmudic sources, his ruling that Arab life is worth sparing, even if it requires ceding Jewish land?

I am asking this very respectfully, and will not argue with your answer. I'd just like to hear the basis for this belief that he has.

Chaimfan

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

Hello--

I have a simple question I'd like an answer for. I know many people at JTF are fond of the Sefardic Torah Scholar Rabbi Ovadia Yosef. I'd like for one or more of those who support him to answer a basic question I have:

Can you please explain, from Torahic/Talmudic sources, his ruling that Arab life is worth sparing, even if it requires ceding Jewish land?

I am asking this very respectfully, and will not argue with your answer. I'd just like to hear the basis for this belief that he has.

Chaimfan

And where does he state this Halacha anywhere?

[DownwithIslam]

Tzvi, I can tell you something which Mr. Yosef is famous for saying and that is land may be given away to the muslims. Everyone knows he said that. Now, do you have to hear anything else because that is certainly bad enough. What kind of piece of drek would give away land that jews dreamed for so long of returning to? This is a frightening individual who seems to value Islamic life over jewish ones.

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

Tzvi, I can tell you something which Mr. Yosef is famous for saying and that is land may be given away to the muslims. Everyone knows he said that. Now, do you have to hear anything else because that is certainly bad enough. What kind of piece of drek would give away land that jews dreamed for so long of returning to? This is a frightening individual who seems to value Islamic life over jewish ones.

The question above was asked about arab safety, where does the Rav state anything to do with that, what he said was land for Peace (Jewish peace), I understand that people dont agree, etc. but its a lie to say that he said land for the safety of arabs. In fact some time ago the media was outraged where he called arabs snakes and said that they all should be killed.
 

[DownwithIslam]

Ok tzvi, since you acknowledged that Mr. Yosef did say that land for peace was ok, lets discuss that as well as the reason this butcher allows his "party" to remain in this evil regime. How could any legit rabbi take a land for peace position? Their is no difference between Yosefs position and Yossi beilins in this regard. The fact that this snake allows his party to soak in Ehud Smolmerts immoral bathtub tells us everything about his morals and core. Tzvi, I would hope you forget about this beast and stop worshiping him. I understand you are very religious and want a connection to a rabbi. Why cant you find a real right wing rabbi who believes in kahanist principles? Why don't you ask Chaim for a recommendation of who to contact? I am sure you can find someone more worthy of your following than this big self indulgent piece of drek known as "Rabbi Yosef."

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

One thing has to be understood about Rav Ovadia Shlita, is that his main concern and perspective is different then what others like us might feel and think about the Jewish state. His main concern and belief is for the continued survival of the Jewish people not necessarily as a nation with an army etc. but as a people with the Torah, and keeping the laws available for now, and THEN when the Messiah comes their will be the full state, and real peace etc. His true opinion probably is that the zionists did not bring the ultimate redemption, nor will it necessarily be the catalyst for the redemption. So using the government, and the system best would be to keep building Yeshivot, Mikva's, and other religious places, etc. for the continual Religious and social welfare of Jews specifically the underprivlidged Sefardi Jews.
 With that said from their perspective giving away gaza wouldnt be a problem from an idealogical (bringing glory to the nation) perspective, but would from the fact that many Jews suffered, etc.
  These thing, expecially the Kanesset process is complicated, one thing that can be seen is that expecially Shas is criticized for doing anything, becuase the people who are doing that first have hatred and then find their excuse and reason, but why arent the good points or the benifit of a doubt given? Also things need to be given some time before criticizing and even worse calling names agains't a Talmid Hacham, which is a great sin and punishment to do.

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

I wont contine to talk and debate with someone who uses vicious name calling agains't a Rav. All I will say is give it some time, you will see that the gov. will fall, etc.

[jdl4ever]

What does the government have to do with the sin against giving away one inch of the land to the enemy?

[DownwithIslam]

Tzvi, you are not thinking about this logically. Their is no explanation for supporting a party that met Yassir Arafat on the same day they threw Chaim out of Israel. I am very sorry but their is no way. If Mr. Yosef has the beliefs you described then I think evel less of him than I did before. Whatever his reasoning may be, is it ok to give away land when he knows that it will kill jews. I mean cmon. I also won't debate you on this as you can see no wrong in this man.

[Lubab]

The whole thing is backwards. He claims we should give away land to save Jewish life, because the life is more important than the land. It is true that the life is more important than the land, however, giving away land endangers all the Jewish lives there!

So his premise is right, but his conclusion is downright dangerous to all of us.

[DownwithIslam]

What does the government have to do with the sin against giving away one inch of the land to the enemy?

I was thinking the same thing. I just don't understand why so many sefardim support this savage and his cronies. Many of the people who support that party are good people but they are so confused. Would they still support Mr Yosef if he was caught with a hooker in the basement of shas headquarters?

[jdl4ever]

The premise is also wrong ... a certain Kohen Gadol in Tanach comes to mind who tried to do that and surrender to Sennacherib and the Assyrians.  G-d called him wicked along with the majority of Israel who supported him and he suffered a painful death. 

[DownwithIslam]

The premise is also wrong ... a certain Kohen Gadol in Tanach comes to mind who tried to do that.  G-d called him wicked and he suffered a painful death. 

I believe that Mr Yosefs only ambition is to stuff as much gelt into his pockets as humanly possible. That is why he supports giving away land and all his farshtunken positions. If he took right wing positions then he wouldn't get all the earmarks for his causes that he currently gets. That is also why more shas ministers are in prison then any other party, because the whole point of the party is to collect money.

[jdl4ever]

Talking about hookers in basements, my father went to a respected Chassidish high school in Brooklyn 30 years ago and some of his closest Chassidish friends (all from good families with the full garb) told him that they went to hookers.

[DownwithIslam]

Talking about hookers in basements, my father went to a respected Chassidish high school in Brooklyn 30 years ago and some of his closest Chassidish friends (all from good families with the full garb) told him that they went to hookers.

You mean when your father was in high school, his classmates went to hookers? I mean it is well known that many Boro Park and Williamsburg Jews go to prostitutes. I heard about it from so many people but I would love to catch one. I can't imagine how a chasidic guy with the whole garb would look going to a whore. They are embarrassing the jewish religion and g-d in a very severe way. That must be some terrible sin.

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

Talking about hookers in basements, my father went to a respected Chassidish high school in Brooklyn 30 years ago and some of his closest Chassidish friends (all from good families with the full garb) told him that they went to hookers.

So you just spoke lashon hara about a group of Jews, putting down a whole group, even in front of a (at least 1) member on the forum who is in that category.
 Latly everyones hatred is popping up, one by one, who will continue and show their true colors? Is everyone drunk tonight or something?   shame on you.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

I wont contine to talk and debate with someone who uses vicious name calling agains't a Rav. All I will say is give it some time, you will see that the gov. will fall, etc.

Tzvi, I understand where you're coming from.  As a BT myself, I want to be extra precautious about lobbing insults at an esteemed rabbi, especially a talmud chachim like Rav Yosef.  So a discussion of his halachic rulings should be limited to the ruling and its legitimacy or lackthereof.  We can conclude it is errant without insulting the man's integrity.  But still.... If we cannot find a true halachic precedent behind his ruling, when we judge the behavior of his party Shas, which is notoriously corrupt in Israel, there is a question of how far does self-restraint go and when does it become legitimate to criticize or question agenda/motives?  I myself am rather an am haaretz, so I don't presume to know this fine balance or be in a position to cross the line.  But the problem for us Jews today is that... There is NO leader stepping up and doing it.  Nobody who DOES have the standing to be able to vocally criticize, is doing so.  Esteemed learned rabbis DO have the authority to dispute (bitterly dispute) other rabbis whose rulings contradict their own Torah wisdom.  Things were different in the past.  Rabbi Yaacov Emden, Rambam, many others, had no reservations about angry halachic disputes for the sake of Heaven.  We had Rabbi Kahane to take a stand against the establishment positions, but since him, what leader is there who is not bound by the shackles of nicety and respect above the fight for truth of Torah?  Who is on a level that can legitimately challenge the authority of others while also having the chutzpah to do so?  It seems either all of today's great Torah scholars agree wholeheartedly or are unwilling to dispute one another publicly to challenge the status quo in any way.  

[jdl4ever]

Downwithislam; you got it right.  Some of his classmates confessed that they went to hookers, so my father says probably a lot more did the same thing.  This was an entirely Chassidish school, my father being the rare non Chassid but he had to dress like one to go there.  So looks don't mean anything.  That's the lesson to the story.  My father may dress normally but he's far superior than those scum who "learn half a day", dress in the full Chassidish garb and go to hookers on the side. 

And Tzvi, this is a true story.  I didn't make it up.  Just because you don't want to believe it does not make it untrue.  And you don't know the first thing about what is Loshon Hara and what is not so don't show your ignorance and be quiet.  I didn't say all the Chassidim go to hookers, just that in the 1970's some of my father's Chassidish classmates in a respectable fully Chassidish high school in boro park confessed to seeing hookers.  Interpret it as you feel fit.  We will never know how many did this, if it was the majority or the minority.

[OdKahaneChai]

R' Yosef ruled that only can only give away land for true peace.  He was anti-"disengagement."

[DownwithIslam]

Downwithislam; you got it right.  Some of his classmates confessed that they went to hookers, so my father says probably a lot more did the same thing.  This was an entirely Chassidish school, my father being the rare non Chassid but he had to dress like one to go there.  So looks don't mean anything.  That's the lesson to the story.  My father may dress normally but he's far superior than those scum who "learn half a day", dress in the full Chassidish garb and go to hookers on the side. 

And Tzvi, this is a true story.  I didn't make it up.  Just because you don't want to believe it does not make it untrue.  And you don't know the first thing about what is Loshon Hara and what is not so don't show your ignorance and be quiet. 

Jdl4ever, I know every word you are saying is true. Usually its the anti zionist chasidim that also go to whores because the whole reason they are in america is too be comfortable. These savages believe in nothing. Now back to our original discussion. Tzvi, being kind to the cruel is evil. Mr Yosef is a wicked serpent who walks around in beautiful clothes and with a nice golden stick, saying that land needs to be given away while jews are being blown up and kassamed to death. The mere fact that he is sitting in that govt right now means that he wants jews in those rocket battered towns to die a miserable death. I think that is true hatred. Mr Yosef is a danger to jews.

[DownwithIslam]

R' Yosef ruled that only can only give away land for true peace.  He was anti-"disengagement."

True Peace? That entire premise is invalid. Did he forget that we are dealing wih muslims who murdered jews before their was even a jewish state. Yosefs land for peace was just a front to stick more gelt into his gatkes.

[DownwithIslam]

Downwithislam; you got it right.  Some of his classmates confessed that they went to hookers, so my father says probably a lot more did the same thing.  This was an entirely Chassidish school, my father being the rare non Chassid but he had to dress like one to go there.  So looks don't mean anything.  That's the lesson to the story.  My father may dress normally but he's far superior than those scum who "learn half a day", dress in the full Chassidish garb and go to hookers on the side. 

And Tzvi, this is a true story.  I didn't make it up.  Just because you don't want to believe it does not make it untrue.  And you don't know the first thing about what is Loshon Hara and what is not so don't show your ignorance and be quiet.  I didn't say all the Chassidim go to hookers, just that in the 1970's some of my father's Chassidish classmates in a respectable fully Chassidish high school in boro park confessed to seeing hookers.  Interpret it as you feel fit.  We will never know how many did this, if it was the majority or the minority.

Jdl4ever, did they visit the prostitute with their whole chasidic garb on or did they put their streimel in the closet and put on some cargoes before they headed out to the whore?

[OdKahaneChai]

R' Yosef ruled that only can only give away land for true peace.  He was anti-"disengagement."

True Peace? That entire premise is invalid. Did he forget that we are dealing wih muslims who murdered jews before their was even a jewish state.

It's a hypothetical ruling...

[DownwithIslam]

R' Yosef ruled that only can only give away land for true peace.  He was anti-"disengagement."

True Peace? That entire premise is invalid. Did he forget that we are dealing wih muslims who murdered jews before their was even a jewish state.

It's a hypothetical ruling...

Besides, Yosef is still sitting in the govt so he clearly supports evil.

[OdKahaneChai]

R' Yosef ruled that only can only give away land for true peace.  He was anti-"disengagement."

True Peace? That entire premise is invalid. Did he forget that we are dealing wih muslims who murdered jews before their was even a jewish state.

It's a hypothetical ruling...

Besides, Yosef is still sitting in the govt so he clearly supports evil.

No he isn't...