how many Jews are in the forum?

[Dr. Dan]

1. much easier to use a microwave oven then convert a non Jew into a Torah abiding Jew.
2. where did you read that mikvah was not required etc etc by a conservative conversion?  This is news to me.
3. Since there is no Temple yet (and hopefully soon) then no convert can really do a sacrifice, so therefore non Jews who convert really never got converted because they never sacrificed.

So since there is no Temple yet (also hopefully soon it will be rebuilt) then baal teshuvas can't really be BTs?

No, it is nonsense. pay no attention to whoever said that.. whether it was dr dan (who does not seem to be orthodox).  Or tzvi.  Probably dr dan said it..

So far neither of them are even quoting right anyway.

And Converts are given total respect.. even moreso than those born jewish..  There is a famous letter written by a convert to the RAMBAM, where the convert wrote of how he was looked down upon. The RAMBAM wrote back about how great the guy was, and saying something along the lines of , and this is a very vague recollection.  "there are 36 places in the talmud where it talks of respecting the convert. Show this to the jews / rabbis in your area".


A convert is just as jewish as anybody born jewish.

What about other things people can do now in the mean time until we get the Temple back. I mention this because the first things christians say when they try to convert Jews, is "how are your sins forgiven without a Temple to do sacrifices?" Naturally, there are other things Jews can do in the mean time until the Temple is back.

We do have yom kippur
Also, I do not have the tenach quotes to hand, but later in the nach, after the temple was destroyed, it says that prayer replaced sacrifices

And is there really a "conversion" to Judaism? I mean in the sense that people convert to Christianity or more of a recognition to the Jewish community. I do agree with the very strict guidelines that Orthodox use for those very few gentiles who are really honesty going through gerut. And when one does finish gerut, then born Jews are not supposed to even talk to them about the time they were not Jewish etc..etc..
I lost track of what I was saying, I hope it overall makes sense.
But let us not forget that the great Rabbi Akiva was descended from "converts".

The conversion is -not- in the same sense as christianity.. Since now after converting the person is a jew, and obligated by jewish law.  Whereas beforehand, they were not obligated.   

A convert is 100% jewish, and I think it is even a sin to bring up about the fact that they converted.. Since it embarasses them.. A jew is a jew. 

As mentioned. The rule.   Mother is jewish, or converted.

thank you.

[Dr. Dan]

I consider myself a proud Jew... I consider Ron Jeremy not...

people like him are not real Jews

They are recognized as Jewish, doesn't mean that what they do is considered Jewish like behavior however.

The Torah says that even some Jews (depends on the sins they do) are considered to be not Jewish

I consider myself a proud Jew... I consider Ron Jeremy not...

people like him are not real Jews

They are recognized as Jewish, doesn't mean that what they do is considered Jewish like behavior however.

The Torah says that even some Jews (depends on the sins they do) are considered to be not Jewish

I don't consider liberal Jews to be real Jews.

no, many liberal Jews are Jews, but behaving badly.

[Dr. Dan]

the rabbis decreed and Hashem therefore having given them authority to be partners with Him on jewish law... they decided the conversion would work and the sacrifice would be held in abeiance until the temple is re-built and then the ger will bring it... meanwhile they would be full jews and G-d agreed to change their souls... but all the other details must be adhered to... and while conserv. make their converts go to mikvah it doesn't count... because their rabbis are not real rabbis because they deny the validity of the sinai as a Divine manifestation and they break or agree to allow jews to break shabat, kashrut and now gay marriage etc, etc, etc... so their beit din is not a valid court which is required to be present (in the anteroom for women converts) while the mikvah lady witnesses the woman's tevilah and gives testimony on its complete and proper fulfillment right afterward... i've been on one of those courts myself once here in l.a... nik. out...

Conservative rabibs deny the validity of sinai as  Divine Manifestation?  where is that written?  And they encourage Jews to break shabbat? I know a very liberal conservative rabbi he does no such thing. So at what point is it written by conservatives to encourage breaking Shabbat and kashrut?

[Dr. Dan]

200 billion!

I wish there were 200 billion Kahanist Jews

then there would be 80 trillion anti-kahanist Jews and non jews..and that many people in the world, we better have the ability to colonize planets in outer space.

[mord]

here are some more

"You shall love the convert, for you were strangers in the land of Egypt."
Devarim (Deuteronomy) 10:19

"Do not hurt the feelings of a convert or oppress him, for you were strangers in the land of Egypt."
Shemot (Exodus) 22:20

"Do not oppress a convert, you know how it feels to be a stranger because you were strangers in the land of Egypt."
Shemot (Exodus) 23:9

"When a convert comes to live in your land, do not hurt his feelings. The convert should be to you exactly like a born Jew and you shall love him like yourself, for you were strangers in Egypt - I am HaShem, your G-d."
VaYikra (Leviticus) 19:33-34

That plain text says GER

And that does not necessarily mean a convert

Look. Was King David a convert? (he was not)

Psalm 39:12 Hear my prayer, O LORD, and give ear unto my cry; hold not thy peace at my tears: for I am a stranger(GER) with thee, and a sojourner, as all my fathers were.

Were jews CONVERTS TO JUDAISM (while enslaved) in the land of egypt?

that was a verse you quoted that used the word Ger.

Do not confuse what the talmud says. With the meaning of the plain text.

interesting i dint know that, but Ruth, King Davids grandmother was a convert and also the grandparents or the parents of Rabbi Akiva were converts

King Davids great great great etc GRANDMOTHER FROM THE OTHER SIDE OF THE FAMILY WAS ALSO A CONVERT ,RAHAB

[Dr. Dan]

1. much easier to use a microwave oven then convert a non Jew into a Torah abiding Jew.
2. where did you read that mikvah was not required etc etc by a conservative conversion?  This is news to me.
3. Since there is no Temple yet (and hopefully soon) then no convert can really do a sacrifice, so therefore non Jews who convert really never got converted because they never sacrificed.

Jewish community. I do agree with the very strict guidelines that Orthodox use for those very few gentiles who are really honesty going through gerut. And when one does finish gerut, then born Jews are not supposed to even talk to them about the time they were not Jewish etc..etc..
I lost track of what I was saying, I hope it overall makes sense.
But let us not forget that the great Rabbi Akiva was descended from "converts".

The conversion is -not- in the same sense as christianity.. Since now after converting the person is a jew, and obligated by jewish law.  Whereas beforehand, they were not obligated.   

A convert is 100% jewish, and I think it is even a sin to bring up about the fact that they converted.. Since it embarasses them.. A jew is a jew. 

As mentioned. The rule.   Mother is jewish, or converted.

thank you.

Thank you? What do you mean? Were you... not the one who said that "converts" really never convert because there is no Temple, in other words people never convert aka that statement would pretty much question the legitimacy of  "converts" or something like that. q_q_'s analysis proved that to not be accurate and it was what I was trying to say as well, since I disagreed with that suggestion.

LOL,  silly me! I guess you were being sarcastic in the no-Temple-no-conversion comment because you were trying to argue for reform and conservative "conversions" right? If so, then I get what you were saying. Still, anyone make make the claim that "no Temple, no baal teshuvas either" Yet we know there are things Jews can do in the mean time until the Temple is back.

Well, abstaining from taking a position that Orthodox conversions are all yay and all non orthodox conversions are nay. 

I'm trying to get a real explanation why non Orthodox conversions are all nays.
I'm trying to get a real explanation of why Orthodox conversions are yay.

when it was explained by one poster that basically no conversion was official until a sacrifice was done at the Temple, I questioned it by repeating the statement.  It's not what i necessearily believe nor am I aware of the real Torah Jewish point of view of conversions. 

As far as conversions to Judaism, I'm bound to trust a converted person to Judaism if they pursued it with their whole heart, if they are practicing a proper form of observant Judaism to the best of their abilities, and more likely to trust it if they had a conversion done with a really good Orthodox rabbi than if it were a reform or conservative rabbi, no offense to them. I would rather err on the side of caution by good rabbis who follow a more authentic form of Judaism mostly found within Orthodoxy, but not ruling out some conservative rabbis and maybe perhaps one or two reform ones although I won't go there.  IN other words, you will get more of a bang for your buck with someone who follows an orthodox version of Judaism than the other movements.  Yes, i'm sure there are more than a few orthodox rabbis who don't know what they're doing also, but far fewer than conservative and reform ones.

[Dr. Dan]

Also, the whole Christian conversion tries to mimic "conversion" to Judaism. Which is I guess why I have a problem with using "conversion" when it comes to Judaism. You tell a Christian "I'm converting to Judaism" and they think it's the same thing as conversions as they know it. (That or you get lots of dirty looks, lol)

In fact, did anyone here know that when someone converts to Catholicism, they are Catholic to the day they die? No way out of it! Not even excommunication makes a person not catholic. Once baptized Catholic, the person is always Catholic for ever etc. And Christians say that the new convert is now a "Christian, part of the 'new' covenant" and also obliged to keep all the Christian ethics and beliefs as well as rules to the fullest. Naturally part of that is to try to convert others. So there is a major change and adaptation to new laws that new Christians must follow. I meant it in this sense.

 Obviously we know that it is much different when one does do gerut to Judaism, but when people say "convert" it just reminds me too much of the way some Gentiles define it, and it bothers me because it is a lot more to become Jewish than just "converting", so  much more and I am sure many here understand it, no need to explain it further...but nothing can EVER compare to it. I suppose that is why I write "convert" I like using gerut/gerus intead, personally, because it distinguishes what Gentiles think "convert" is to what we know an actual conversion to Judaism really is.
That is all. Plus I was having the most interesting conversation with a Lubavitcher who mentioned how he himself believes there to be no actual "conversion" per se (aka "conversion" as we know it), but a becoming Jewish. (which I guess is the same thing, only labeled differently, lol  )

I know that people will still use the term "conversion", it's just what everyone says, so I don't have a problem with people using it anyways. For the sake of ease and because in essence, the definition fits....we will continue to use "conversion". No need to stop.

Don't get me wrong, I completely agree with all you on this. 

Conversion basically means the switching of one's soul and way of life...The key is to be completely in that realm.  The truth is, the individual who is converting cannot lie to himself/herself when they do it.  

Converting isn't like changing underwear.

[Dr. Dan]

Dr. Dan, I totally get what you are saying. I must read a little more before I post something, lol. But no offense intended.

I realize it's a very touch subject for you..I honor those who go through a true conversion much of they way you are doing.  You're dealing with a lot of tough things even once you have fully converted.  I have to hand it to you, your dedication and am so glad that someone like you is going to be part of our people.

[bubby]

hi i`m a newbie,im a bit confused now, i thought that to be a Jew one had to be a descendant of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob,and to qualify as an Arab it is Abraham, Isaac and Ishmael. In the book of Ruth she is a true convert but is still described as a Moabite, anyone shed some light on this for me??

[Dr. Dan]

hi i`m a newbie,im a bit confused now, i thought that to be a Jew one had to be a descendant of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob,and to qualify as an Arab it is Abraham, Isaac and Ishmael. In the book of Ruth she is a true convert but is still described as a Moabite, anyone shed some light on this for me??

you meant Abraham and Ishmael and maybe Abraham, Issac, and Esau.

But not Abraham Ishmael and Issac since the two were half brothers.

[mord]

Why they call her a moabite if i come from the U.S. they would call me Mark the American

[bubby]

sorry Esau it was,but i thought ethnicity has nothing to do with geography, yes i understand what you are saying mark but you are Mark an american jew.

[Dr. Dan]

Why they call her a moabite if i come from the U.S. they would call me Mark the American

Moabites are decendents of Lot (and his daughters)

[Dr. Dan]

sorry Esau it was,but i thought ethnicity has nothing to do with geography, yes i understand what you are saying mark but you are Mark an american jew.

Ethnicity is one thing...religion is another thing.

Judaism is a blur of the two.

Judaism can be considered an ethnic thing, but not completely because there are those who are not ethnically Jewish but practice Judaism and therefore are Jews and therefore can convert to this religion.  THerefore, Judaism is a soulful thing. Some people are ethnically Jewish but do not practice Judaism in a way that certain people approve of.  Some dont' follow Judaism at all.  So, they might be ethnically Jewish, but not soulfully (although that is not completely true either).

A non Jew who is not converted but follows Judaism is less a Jew than an secular ethnic Jew, at least in my opinion.  I'm not really sure why I feel this way in my gut, but there is something about the souls of ethnic Jews that set them apart from the rest. Not saying we are better than anyone else..just saying something unique and different than non ethnic Jews.

[Vito]

Yes you are totally right! To some Christians, however, it is like changing underwear. That's why I don't use the term "conversion" to Judaism with them, because they don't always understand what it really is,it is much harder than anything and to them its really not a huge change since "conversion" in Christianity is ...well.... I see Christians go from Catholic, to Christian non-denom to Mormon and then back to something else etc.. So that's way I hate the word at times. Maybe it's my background of having to talk to Christians and hearing them speak about it that makes sick of that word. So I guess I am traumatized or something.
But when I speak to Jews, I know they know what "conversion" REALLY means, and don't have to worry about it. So it's cool! 
 

Eh, you're a little off on that point. Converting from on religion to another is converting.. going from one Christian denomination to a different Christian denomination is not converting.

[bubby]

Dr Dan, succinctly put, thankyou.

[briann]

A non Jew who is not converted but follows Judaism is less a Jew than an secular ethnic Jew, at least in my opinion.  I'm not really sure why I feel this way in my gut, but there is something about the souls of ethnic Jews that set them apart from the rest. Not saying we are better than anyone else..just saying something unique and different than non ethnic Jews.

I think its wrong to consider Judaism as being an ethnicity, and it hurts the Jewish cause.  It has the ring of Naziism, and it puts self-hating liberal athiest who happened to have Jewish parents above Jew-loving converts (Of which I know a few, and they are VERY observant).

I really think you should re-evaluate your position here.

Brian

[bubby]

but judaism refers to faith Jew to ethnicity, a chinaman who believes in judaism or christianity remains a Chinaman theres no slight intended

[bubby]

yes Mills converts are those that are spiritually associated which could be argued to be more important than physical association, but what i am saying is a Jew by absolute definition must come from Jacob. Now some Jews have no spirituality no conciousness of G-d and care little for thier "Jewish heritage" however the fact is they remain Jews by birth.Instance, convert in nazy germany can quickly become non convert to save some skin ,but ethnic jew finished, not that convert would do so just a possibility, i hope i haven`t offended anyone im just say ethnicity=absolute, convert spiritually simpathetic ,recognises the truth of torah,doesn`t make them Jews.

[briann]

hi i`m a newbie,im a bit confused now, i thought that to be a Jew one had to be a descendant of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob,and to qualify as an Arab it is Abraham, Isaac and Ishmael. In the book of Ruth she is a true convert but is still described as a Moabite, anyone shed some light on this for me??

Arabs are descended from Abraham and Ishmael, not Isaac, since Isaac and Ishamel were brothers. But Ishmael's descendants did mix with Esau, Isaac's son.

This kind of talk should remain in brian-dead forums like StørmFrønt.   There is NO WAY!!!! that all Arabs are from Abraham and/or Ishamel.  THis is UTTER nonsence propogated by Arab Nazis, and by books written by madmen, and by children of madmen. 

And also, I am certain that there are Jews that have NO direct lineage to any of the above.  whether they are Ashkenazi , Sephardi, or Mizrahi,  I guarantee that in the last few millenium, there WERE families who converted to Judaism out of ideology and NOT out of blood. even though this breaks the rules.

Brian

[bubby]

ok we`ll leave it there, i didn`t mean to rile you i was just talking scientific,ie physiologically

[mord]

hi i`m a newbie,I'm a bit confused now, i thought that to be a Jew one had to be a descendant of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob,and to qualify as an Arab it is Abraham, Isaac and Ishmael. In the book of Ruth she is a true convert but is still described as a Mobutu, anyone shed some light on this for me??

 

Arabs are descended from Abraham and Ishmael, not Isaac, since Isaac and Ishmael were brothers. But Ishmael's descendants did mix with Esau, Isaac's son.

This kind of talk should remain in branded forums like Storefront.  there is NO WAY!!!! that all Arabs are from Abraham and/or Ishmael.  This is UTTER nonsense propagated by Arab Nazis, and by books written by madmen, and by children of madmen. 

And also, I am certain that there are Jews that have NO direct lineage to any of the above.  whether they are Ashkenazim , Farad, or Mazarin,  I guarantee that in the last few millennium, there WERE families who converted to Judaism out of ideology and NOT out of blood. even though this breaks the rules.

Brian

Correct in Nazi times even non Jews who converted to Judaism were frowned upon

[Dr. Dan]

A non Jew who is not converted but follows Judaism is less a Jew than an secular ethnic Jew, at least in my opinion.  I'm not really sure why I feel this way in my gut, but there is something about the souls of ethnic Jews that set them apart from the rest. Not saying we are better than anyone else..just saying something unique and different than non ethnic Jews.

I think its wrong to consider Judaism as being an ethnicity, and it hurts the Jewish cause.  It has the ring of Naziism, and it puts self-hating liberal athiest who happened to have Jewish parents above Jew-loving converts (Of which I know a few, and they are VERY observant).

I really think you should re-evaluate your position here.

Brian

I don't think Jews are either/or in religion and/or ethnicity.

we know that Jews are not just an ethnicity since people who are not ethnic jews can convert to Judaism
and we konw that Jews are not just a religion since many ethnic Jews are considered to be Jews even though they don't practice Judaism, meaning they are less observant or secular (but not necessarily practicing another religion)
and if a Jew practiced Judaism which is way is really correct? or is there more than one way to be correct?

So we have ethnic Jews and we have Jews who may or may not be ethnically Jews, but practice Judaism.  The bottom line is what is the roll of a righteous Jew and what is the roll of a righteous non Jew?

[bubby]

mills, what do you mean anti torah, are you a convert explain anti torah!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

(Haven't read all the opove posts), but real converts are concidered Jewish in all aspects except for the fact that Jews being responsible for their actions. Like the saying that all Jews are responsible for eachother, that doesn't apply to converts, but probably (not 100% sure, but probably true) for their children. But in the other sense one has to be extra sensitive with converts, and their are many Halachot that prohibit one from saying or doing things that might hurt them, one can even put down the nation that that person came from- this was learned from Yitro, even thought he disagreed with Egypt when he heard what happened to them it did hurt him somewhat. (If you ask that he was from Midian- He was origionally from Egypt and was one of the 3 advisors to Pharoh, but then he fled after they were alking about what to do with the high Jewish birth-rate.- 3 were present Bilam said to kill them and he was later killed, Iyov was silent and he suffered throughout his life and Yitro fled in protest, and he merited having children who later sat in the Sanhedrin).