how many Jews are in the forum?

[Dr. Dan]

what is dancing with the opposite sex, if not sexual teasing?

it is certainly showing off of some kind.

maybe for you it is..

For me it isnt

However, I woudl agree to the point if there is bumping and grinding and rubbing frontal and back body parts on each other...

but just simple dancing like friends and family dance...it's not a tease to me.

Maybe you need to get out more often if things like that are a tease to you.

[q_q_]

what is dancing with the opposite sex, if not sexual teasing?

it is certainly showing off of some kind.

maybe for you it is..

For me it isnt

However, I woudl agree to the point if there is bumping and grinding and rubbing frontal and back body parts on each other...

but just simple dancing like friends and family dance...it's not a tease to me.

Maybe you need to get out more often if things like that are a tease to you.

My point is that if it is not a tease then what is it?

Like a child or mental case that likes to jump about.. ?

I know girls might like it, I am not asking why they like it. And you are not a girl.

[Dr. Dan]

I think intergender dancing is sexual. When I liked to dance with women, I just wanted to touch the body of a woman. I just wanted to slow dance. Now I know it's wrong so I don't dance with women. Even when I wanted to dance with women, there were only a few occasions where I actually go to.

ok, i understand that is the case with you and others...It's not the case with me.

[Dr. Dan]

what is dancing with the opposite sex, if not sexual teasing?

it is certainly showing off of some kind.

maybe for you it is..

For me it isnt

However, I woudl agree to the point if there is bumping and grinding and rubbing frontal and back body parts on each other...

but just simple dancing like friends and family dance...it's not a tease to me.

Maybe you need to get out more often if things like that are a tease to you.

My point is that if it is not a tease then what is it?

Like a child or mental case that likes to jump about.. ?

I know girls might like it, I am not asking why they like it. And you are not a girl.

When i go out and there is good music, I like to bop up and down and move all around...and i don't care who i'm dancing with to be honest.

But if i'm dancing like that with another guy, I would be afraid people would think I were gay..maybe get some homosexual men to hit on me...So really, it works in my favor to prefer women to dance with...

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

Dan- reform and conservative doesn't decide G-d's law according to Halacha, but according to what is popular or not, if gay "marriage" is acceptable for the times then its acceptible for them. If murder aka abortion is acceptible by people in society then it becomes acceptible for them. They essentially do not really believe in G-d, nor in the miracles he performed for us in front of millions. They are (were), just a step for calming down ones conscious. If keeping with Halacha (true Orthodoxy- it says for example- a Mihallel Shabb-out is like a goy, cant be part of minyan, etc. They would then need to modify that and say no, its no that bad, you can drive here without a problem, etc etc etc. + the "rabbis" themselves are just doing it for the $. In life you see generally speaking the richer the organization the more corrupt it is. Instead of being True to the True way of life they became a business like everyone else.

[Dr. Dan]

Dan- reform and conservative doesn't decide G-d's law according to Halacha, but according to what is popular or not, if gay "marriage" is acceptable for the times then its acceptible for them. If murder aka abortion is acceptible by people in society then it becomes acceptible for them. They essentially do not really believe in G-d, nor in the miracles he performed for us in front of millions. They are (were), just a step for calming down ones conscious. If keeping with Halacha (true Orthodoxy- it says for example- a Mihallel Shabb-out is like a goy, cant be part of minyan, etc. They would then need to modify that and say no, its no that bad, you can drive here without a problem, etc etc etc. + the "rabbis" themselves are just doing it for the $. In life you see generally speaking the richer the organization the more corrupt it is. Instead of being True to the True way of life they became a business like everyone else.

i hear you and have heard this many times..but i want to see in writing the decree teh Conservative and Reform movements have made on kashrut, on shabbat, and on homosexuality..at least those three.

I dont' want to read what you heard or from a pronounced orthodox Jew about his point of view of conservative and reform movements. I want to read the conservative and reform movements wording for myself just be sure they aren't being misunderstood.  that's all.

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

I think intergender dancing is sexual. When I liked to dance with women, I just wanted to touch the body of a woman. I just wanted to slow dance. Now I know it's wrong so I don't dance with women. Even when I wanted to dance with women, there were only a few occasions where I actually go to.

ok, i understand that is the case with you and others...It's not the case with me.

I understand, and myself had that question in mind- actually more about what will all the relatives etc. say and think about having a mehitza, and "its not that big of a deal" etc. BUT even if you aren't affected by it, others might. Men might look at other women, and another man's wife. It could lead to jealousy, and lust and many other bad things. If it your wedding night you dont want to start your married life with alll the sins accumulated on of your wedding night.  Just think of it like this in Iran did your grandparents involve themselves in this type of behavior? They most probably didn't (would be 98% sure), having all these breakdowns we see all the problems that society faces. (all the fights, jealousy, divorce, etc.)

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

Dan- reform and conservative doesn't decide G-d's law according to Halacha, but according to what is popular or not, if gay "marriage" is acceptable for the times then its acceptible for them. If murder aka abortion is acceptible by people in society then it becomes acceptible for them. They essentially do not really believe in G-d, nor in the miracles he performed for us in front of millions. They are (were), just a step for calming down ones conscious. If keeping with Halacha (true Orthodoxy- it says for example- a Mihallel Shabb-out is like a goy, cant be part of minyan, etc. They would then need to modify that and say no, its no that bad, you can drive here without a problem, etc etc etc. + the "rabbis" themselves are just doing it for the $. In life you see generally speaking the richer the organization the more corrupt it is. Instead of being True to the True way of life they became a business like everyone else.

i hear you and have heard this many times..but i want to see in writing the decree teh Conservative and Reform movements have made on kashrut, on shabbat, and on homosexuality..at least those three.

I dont' want to read what you heard or from a pronounced orthodox Jew about his point of view of conservative and reform movements. I want to read the conservative and reform movements wording for myself just be sure they aren't being misunderstood.  that's all.

  Then you would have to research it yourself. If you have Shalom t.v. you can listin to an interview they have with the head of the reform movement YSV. It was also openly in the news.  I dont want to spend time, learning Torah from the klippot, because it is truly a waste.

[Dr. Dan]

I think intergender dancing is sexual. When I liked to dance with women, I just wanted to touch the body of a woman. I just wanted to slow dance. Now I know it's wrong so I don't dance with women. Even when I wanted to dance with women, there were only a few occasions where I actually go to.

ok, i understand that is the case with you and others...It's not the case with me.

I understand, and myself had that question in mind- actually more about what will all the relatives etc. say and think about having a mehitza, and "its not that big of a deal" etc. BUT even if you aren't affected by it, others might. Men might look at other women, and another man's wife. It could lead to jealousy, and lust and many other bad things. If it your wedding night you dont want to start your married life with alll the sins accumulated on of your wedding night.  Just think of it like this in Iran did your grandparents involve themselves in this type of behavior? They most probably didn't (would be 98% sure), having all these breakdowns we see all the problems that society faces. (all the fights, jealousy, divorce, etc.)

well, it wasn't because of a mekhitza. I do understand what you are saying about jealous husbands (or jealous wives) accumulating on a wedding day.  But it doesn't have to involve dancing... I mean one can know who's wife belongs to whom and be jealous on other occaions and have nothing to do wtih dancing...i mean in shul on Yom Kippur such things can happen just as easily.

Secondly, women check each other out and sometimes get turned on...Sometimes, a woman will be jealous about how another woman looks with her type of figure etc etc and become insane from it and speak Lashon hara.  So, it technically can be a danger in either way in either place the same way.

My experience with weddings without mekhitzas is that int eh begining especially the men only dance with each other while the women only dance with each other.  Towards the middle of the wedding, everyone dances with each other..and my experience there has been no bumping and grinding or any dirty type of dancing or even dancing that involves touching in any inappropriate way between strangers.  Yes, there are slow dances between couples, but that's far adn few between and there isn't any of the body against body contact.

[Dr. Dan]

Dan- reform and conservative doesn't decide G-d's law according to Halacha, but according to what is popular or not, if gay "marriage" is acceptable for the times then its acceptible for them. If murder aka abortion is acceptible by people in society then it becomes acceptible for them. They essentially do not really believe in G-d, nor in the miracles he performed for us in front of millions. They are (were), just a step for calming down ones conscious. If keeping with Halacha (true Orthodoxy- it says for example- a Mihallel Shabb-out is like a goy, cant be part of minyan, etc. They would then need to modify that and say no, its no that bad, you can drive here without a problem, etc etc etc. + the "rabbis" themselves are just doing it for the $. In life you see generally speaking the richer the organization the more corrupt it is. Instead of being True to the True way of life they became a business like everyone else.

i hear you and have heard this many times..but i want to see in writing the decree teh Conservative and Reform movements have made on kashrut, on shabbat, and on homosexuality..at least those three.

I dont' want to read what you heard or from a pronounced orthodox Jew about his point of view of conservative and reform movements. I want to read the conservative and reform movements wording for myself just be sure they aren't being misunderstood.  that's all.

  Then you would have to research it yourself. If you have Shalom t.v. you can listin to an interview they have with the head of the reform movement YSV. It was also openly in the news.  I dont want to spend time, learning Torah from the klippot, because it is truly a waste.

you're probably right...

And listen, me asking these questions is in no way my disagreement with the rest of you about the reform and conservative movements. I just need to look at it for myself. I disagree with the approach the more liberal movements make in regards to the Torah rules.  I do not disagree with the approach of interpreting things differently, on the other hand. However, it's more prudent that if one were to interpret Torah rules to make it "convenient" for today's time without changing the actual Torah Rules, that they look back at past commentary by the khakahmeem.

[nikmatdam]

no... dr. dan... the books are not just his opinions... he brings documented proofs to his contentions... you are afraid of the truth... you refuse to look up the conservative movement bylaws and you tell us all what a book says and why it says what it says without ever having heard of it let alone ever having read it... i've seen closedminded people before... but you take the cake... and it was baked on a shabat by a conservative or reform satanic jewish rabbi... nik. out...

[nikmatdam]

he told you right... they have a din of a church during their "prayer" services and are forbidden for us to enter like any other place of idolatry... nik.

[q_q_]

Many of their "rabbis" do not believe in G-d.

Their members are largely cultural jews..

A famous reform/liberal/conservative "Rabbi", in britain, Baroness Neuberger, in an interview, said that in her community, if anybody were to speak about a personal G-d that they can pray to, then everybody else would look at them like they were mad.
Another one, "Rabbi" Dr Jonathan Romain, has written of his wish to literally rewrite the bible, removing the violent parts.   I would call them ministers, not rabbis.. And their place is not a synagogue.. and certainly not a "temple".
They only call it temple, because they don't believe the temple will be rebuilt. So they call their "synagogues" "temples". So people forget about it.

[Dr. Dan]

no... dr. dan... the books are not just his opinions... he brings documented proofs to his contentions... you are afraid of the truth... you refuse to look up the conservative movement bylaws and you tell us all what a book says and why it says what it says without ever having heard of it let alone ever having read it... i've seen closedminded people before... but you take the cake... and it was baked on a shabat by a conservative or reform satanic jewish rabbi... nik. out...

nik, you're one angry mo-fo!  I'm not afraid of any truth. I'm afraid of your hot temper and blood pressure everytime you think of the "satanic" conservative and reform movements. 

Funny that you call me close minded. Here I am on this wonderful forum for over a year or so..never been banned...very well respected by people who agree and disagree wtih me...and part of a diversity of people who have views very different from mine...likewise same with our great Chaim...and you call me closed minded.

Haha, I take the cake that was cooked on shabbat by a conservative or reform "satanic" rabbi. Funny...I'll hand it to you. You DO have a sense of humor.

Funny, last i checked, two of the satanic conservative rabbis i learned from kept shomer shabbat including the driving of automobiles on shabbat and live near the shul...so, don't know what to say 'bout that, buddy boy.


Now, granted, the conservative rabbis are very liberal compared to the orthodox ones.  I woudl rather take my chance with the Orthodox rabbis knowing that I don't know enough about Judaism.  Someone who is giong to take a chance with a conservative rabbi has to know Torah and Talmud really realy really really really really really well to understand where they are coming from.  And if anyone is changing rules and changing the words as it is actually written, they are doing the wron gthing.  If they are interpreting something twisting the words in such a way that it can be used by conservative or reform ideology, that's another story, but it's a dangerous thing to do. Yo uhave to really relaly really know Torah and Talmud to do that properly.

[HiWarp]

Yes you are totally right! To some Christians, however, it is like changing underwear. That's why I don't use the term "conversion" to Judaism with them, because they don't always understand what it really is,it is much harder than anything and to them its really not a huge change since "conversion" in Christianity is ...well.... I see Christians go from Catholic, to Christian non-denom to Mormon and then back to something else etc.. So that's way I hate the word at times. Maybe it's my background of having to talk to Christians and hearing them speak about it that makes sick of that word. So I guess I am traumatized or something.
But when I speak to Jews, I know they know what "conversion" REALLY means, and don't have to worry about it. So it's cool! 
 

Eh, you're a little off on that point. Converting from on religion to another is converting.. going from one Christian denomination to a different Christian denomination is not converting.

That's just how some people called it. A sort of minor "conversion" to Mormonism is an example to those mormons I met and converted from other religions, and some Catholics I've spoken to and so on. Sometimes Catholics call it being "received" if someone was Anglican first. But it's more of the constant change in religion I was referring to, and less of the actual term, since it varies from person to person.  I never heard a christian say otherwise until now, hence I still call it conversion as do others and so on. No offense though, since we are entitled to our own opinion on any matter. 

This is not true when it comes to the Orthodox Christians, which is all I can speak for (Greek Orthodox specifically).  Conversion is a big deal that involves a person making the decision on their own and studying and learning about the religion with a priest.  The whole process can take many months to complete and should not be entered into lightly.

[Dr. Dan]

I tried to look up some quotes from the Conservative and Reform movement but there was just too many sites and not enough info. The Conservative website was not too helpful, it just told you talk to your local Rabbi.
But I did get this link: http://www.convert.org/movement.htm

All I know is that my Chabad Rabbi, a while back, told me to not enter a reform or conservative synagogue since they are both "abominations" and said it was preferable to not hear the Shofar than to enter such places. I got it as an email that was sent to everyone else.

I disagree with that. However, that's why the chabads are popping up everywhere..so I welcome that and I welcome the peaceful replacement of chabad shuls of the conservative and reform ones.

I'll only say one thing that is controversial that I don't like about the Orthodox shuls I have walked into.  They aren't down to earth.  The message of the Conservative movement, like it or not, is down to earth a lot of the time to me.  They don't rely nor hope for miracles every Shabbat.

I'm not saying that all I wnat to hear is down to earth stuff all the time when Im' in shul.  I want to hear the other stuff about miracles, about the rabbis' wisdom, hope for the future, and moshiach too, but not constantly thrown down my throat.   

[Dr. Dan]

he told you right... they have a din of a church during their "prayer" services and are forbidden for us to enter like any other place of idolatry... nik.

You sure know how to kill of the Jews, nik...with that attitude, another 6 million will disappear.

[Dr. Dan]

Many of their "rabbis" do not believe in G-d.

Their members are largely cultural jews..

A famous reform/liberal/conservative "Rabbi", in britain, Baroness Neuberger, in an interview, said that in her community, if anybody were to speak about a personal G-d that they can pray to, then everybody else would look at them like they were mad.
Another one, "Rabbi" Dr Jonathan Romain, has written of his wish to literally rewrite the bible, removing the violent parts.   I would call them ministers, not rabbis.. And their place is not a synagogue.. and certainly not a "temple".
They only call it temple, because they don't believe the temple will be rebuilt. So they call their "synagogues" "temples". So people forget about it.

WOW, is all I can see.
So, cultural Jews, eh. Or as some people call them "Chanukah Jews", not "acting" Jewish throughout the year except when it comes to get their Chanukah presents.

Mills, don't listen to these freaks.  It's people like nik that create conserved and deformed movements. 

Hello!!! I grew up as part of the "conserved" movement.  And I'm here and i'm not saying I agree with the movement..but the hatred of fellow Jews who might not be Orthodox, but love Judaism and love Israel and love fellow Jews is not the way to be.  Part of converting to Judaism is loving your fellow Jew, even that ignorant one that doesn't believe in Gd.  And by loving, it doesn't mean letting him go astray.  It means also rebuking, but not cursing. It means loving, not hating.

Nik, is an angry man...so too bad he puts it out on other fellow Jews. The right way to channel anger, as the Rebbe implied, is to study Torah and sing about it in the streets (or something like that).  Cursing other Jews out is very very wrong. Rebuking and disagreeing is right.


(OOO 4000 posts! yay!)

[q_q_]

Many of their "rabbis" do not believe in G-d.

Their members are largely cultural jews..

A famous reform/liberal/conservative "Rabbi", in britain, Baroness Neuberger, in an interview, said that in her community, if anybody were to speak about a personal G-d that they can pray to, then everybody else would look at them like they were mad.
Another one, "Rabbi" Dr Jonathan Romain, has written of his wish to literally rewrite the bible, removing the violent parts.   I would call them ministers, not rabbis.. And their place is not a synagogue.. and certainly not a "temple".
They only call it temple, because they don't believe the temple will be rebuilt. So they call their "synagogues" "temples". So people forget about it.

WOW, is all I can see.
So, cultural Jews, eh. Or as some people call them "Chanukah Jews", not "acting" Jewish throughout the year except when it comes to get their Chanukah presents.

There are rosh hashana yom kippur jews.. They probably like purim and chanukah too.

I wouldn't call them chanukah jews though.. And I am sure that neither would Kahane. Kahane wrote an article, sarcastically titled "down with chanukah".. on how chanukah is so popular, yet the lesson of chanukah is so foreign to jews today. Kahane was a maccabee. 

What I said is verifiable and well known. 

Not to be confused with people linking the reform/conservative movement to the shabbetai tzvi who believed in being righteous through sin. There is some basis to that too.. I have read rabbi antelman's "to eliminate the opiate" vol 1 and 2, and I have checked his references, largely "the messianic idea in judaism" by gershom scholem.  But really you don't need to speculate or go into that..

Reform, based on what the reform leaders have said themselves. Is just not worth the time of day.

This from David Friedlander - wikipedia
" Friedländer's open letter (Sendschreiben) "in the name of some Jewish heads of families," stated that Jews would be ready to undergo "dry baptism": join the Lutheran Church on the basis of shared moral values if they were not required to believe in the divinity of Jesus and might evade certain Christian ceremonies.
"

And it mentions moses mendellsohn.. Rabbi antelman published his ordination certificate which has sabbeatean codewords.. very odd.
And sabbeteans believed in being righteous through sin. some still exist today (donmeh west website)

But you can see enough just looking at todays reform/liberal/conservative ministers.. As I said, as examples. neuberger , jonathan romain, e.t.c.
They are not sinister sabbateans.. Just idiots, cultural jews with some weak attachment to being jewish.

[Mishmaat]

Chanukah has become a self debasing joke in America.

We get the kids some chocolate gelt and we out do our goyishe neighbors with eight days of gift giving. What a commercialized sickness this has become. When I was working as a cashier I remember this modelesque Jewish woman was shopping with her two children. I didn't know she was Jewish until I saw the Chanukah menorah in her shopping cart. I start a conversation with her. "You're celebrating Chanukah. That's nice, etc. etc." And then she says "Yeah, and we also celebrate Christmas..." Intermarried. No clue what the real meaning of Chanukah is. What a disgrace.

[Dr. Dan]

I'm sorry, Dr. Dan. I didn't mean to insult you. I can respect your opinion.
I myself, have never been to anything Conservative. I was just scared after what my Rabbi said that I wont go to one. But if you grew up in it, then surely you must have great memories about it, and I do sense you have great pride in being Jewish. So I do not mean any disrespect on my part.
 

AFter you are through with your conversion and comfortable, I would say for you to walk into a reform and a conservative shul just to compare...But stay orthodox, whateve ryou do..just stay orthodox.

[q_q_]

That's very interesting q_q_!
<snip>
I agree with you on everything you mentioned.

You are so great it`s unbelievable!

[Dr. Dan]

That's very interesting q_q_!
<snip>
I agree with you on everything you mentioned.

You are so great it`s unbelievable!

pssst q_q_. she's single...

[q_q_]

That's very interesting q_q_!
<snip>
I agree with you on everything you mentioned.

You are so great it`s unbelievable!

pssst q_q_. she's single...

If I thought she was married, I wouldn`t have said it.

A comment like that might cause her to demand more from her husband, and it`d be my fault!

And it would appear as if I was trying to take her away from her husband.

It would just be against the rules.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Non-religious Orthodox wedding in Israel even have self-hating loud music and mixed dancing.

LOL, I got a kick out of that "self hating music" hahaha never heard of that kind.