First of all Tzvi.
What you wrote was easily open to misinterpetation.
If misinterpreted, you sound very silly.
I did say that on the second read it is wrong. My implication is that the correct reading , which I got on the second reading , is not stupid.
I know my concise wording in the previous post went over some heads.
That might explain it a bit, to reasonably good thinkers.
I was saying that on the second reading, it wasn't stupid. Just wrong.
Anyhow..
My first read, When you talk about a time difference, it looked like you meant real time.
Indeed. Satmar lived somewhat earler than rabbi kahane.
Rabbi Meir Kahane was 10 years old living in the time of the holocaust, and he knew what was going on even at that age.
At the same time as Rabbi Meir Kahane was 10 years old, living in America, unable to do anything - at only 10, unable to lead people to protest outside the white house until they bombed the rail lines to save thousands daily and at least damage the nazi death plans somewhat.
Rabbi Yissachar Shlomo Teichtal was hiding in a basement witnessing the horrors, unable to do anything. Still, totally opposing the satmar position. Wishing that they would go to israel.
So this idea that if rabbi kahane would have lived in the time of the satmar, he would have been a satmar. That is ridiculous. I don't tihnk you meant that, but it looked a bit like that on first read.
On second read.
It's not stupid, but as I said, it's still wrong.
You put it down to purely a technical difference about whether we are in the beginning of the redemption or not.
I don't think that the case either. But that's not such a silly point.
Consider.
Lots of cases BEFORE the recent "beginning of redemption"
where we faught.
so there is more to it than that.
If you are looking for a theological reason, then the 3 oaths is really the thing to look at.
And Rabbi Kahane himself made this clear.
Rabbi Kahane would have been willing for jews to fight even before the time he thougt was "beginning of the redemption".
Do you really think that if jews were being attacked in some earlier century, that rabbi kahane would have been like the satmar rebbe?!
No.
The 3 oaths are the theological thing that creates the big difference we see, the satmar passivism.
NOW you have a better argument.
That the reason is theological, and that it is based on the 3 oaths.
But I still think that may be wrong.. Certainly not stupid. But just possibly somewhat wrong...
I reckon there have always been some jews that wanted to fight, and some that wanted to remain passive. And rabbis give their theological reasons. Throughout jewish history. judeanoncapta mentioned about that in one of his shows.
Also. To say it's just a difference in time, is missing out a whole psychological aspect.
Rabbi Kahane was the product of brooklyn, he loved winning. And looked at tenach and saw winners.
The Satmar Rebbe would probably look throughout jewish history, and make everything passive.
We do have the pshat which is often quite violent, and then we do have these passive midrashim or traditions, and it is quite suspicious. Suddenly these passive interpretations start cropping up in aggadic or kabbalistic traditions.
The pshat says Moshe beat the egyptian. An aggadic tradition says he killed him with the divine name.
The RAMBAM using rabbi akiva as an example, talks of how when we see somebody fighting the wars of G-d , and presume he is the messiah.. And so on.
And clearly this means war. But in exile all these mystical/kabbalistic ideas pop up that we wait and will be magically transported under underground tunnels. And the 3rd temple will drop ot of the sky on top of the mosque. This is what non zionist rabbis are teaching, we have these passive aggadic and kabbalistic traditions. And it's suspicious.
I think that judeanoncapta is probably right , that many of the aggadic ones were made up in order to modify the behaviour of the people of the time. So they were under a bad regime, and they were told that to prevent more jews dying in a failed rebellion/revolt.
Look at how you and rabbis nowadays play psychological games. You even told Lisa that if she comes to your rabbi's shiur, she can have $20. This is what rabbis do nowadays. They play self help guru and play psychological games, and it works, because people are stupid.
You cannot discount the psychological aspect. And the truth is that religious jews nowadays hold rabbis in such high esteem, that they would never suspect them of doing this. And even when they know they are, they let them off and do not criticise.
I was speaking to somebody whose rosh yeshiva went to speak in a high school (in britain we call them secondary schools). And he said "if you don't go to yeshiva, you are not really jewish". It had an impact, many went. Even though they knew the guy was only saying that to encourage them to go, and he wasn't being "literal". They were educated kids. They just have so much respect for rabbis that they allow it and think nothing of it.
Believe me. I would LOVE to say that it is purely about logic. And 2 theological disagreements, and one goes one way, the other the other way.
But it's just not the case. You have some very knowledgeable rabbis, but they have human flaws that affect their judgement. I assure you, that if you put rabbi kahane and the satmar rebbe in a different time, prior to the "beginning of the redemption" they would act differently, one passive and submissive, one that wants to win.
Rabbi Kahane is at least very very honest in that he says the Satmar position is a valid torah position. He refers to the 3 oaths.. The same is not true of the satmar rebbe.
And this is another big difference.
Anti Zionists just do not see religious zionism as kosher.
Sefaradim may be a bit more relaxed about it. REmember..
Anti Zionism is largely a european phenomena. It arose as a reaction to secular zionism , but attacks all zionim. When ashkenazi rabbis want to say something, they don't just go to the halacha, they often go way beyond it adding more and more strict rulings.
Sefaradim are unfortunately going that way..
See this very interesting website
They tend to complain really that their Sefaradi culture is not properly preserved.
But there is this Sefaradi culture I hear of on the web.. sometimes from maimonideans that reject kabbalah. But other times from just Sefaradim, from certain countries.
This is a very PRO Sefaradi anti ashkenazi site. And this is part of the problem with these particular Sefaradim. They whine alot and are unable to pass on the culture they speak of. And they whine about that too. Nevertheless.. It shows an interesting difference
Notice where the satmar comes from, the charedi
http://blog.sephardicrevival.org/2006/12/24/the-differences.aspxSefaradim
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strong emphasis on bible story
realistic approach to halacha and community life
golden path - middle road
rabbis can make mistakes
rabbis do not intervene in every field
comprehensive curriculum
openness to outside culture
acceptance of all congregants
Ashkenazim (note, this guy just doesn't care about ashkenazim or variety within ashkenazi way But the things he lists are relevant to charedim . The modern orthodox are bothered by these things too)
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Bible is marginal except for liturgy
Idealistic approach
Fanaticism
Rabbis are infallible
Daat torah - rabbis decide on everything
Emphasis on talmud
Erection spiritual walls
Labelling individuals
note- listening to rabbi bar hayyim,(I don't listen to him much, but if judea refers me to one or a point in one, then I listen) One does hear him describing situations from a psychological perspective , and it makes sense. It sounds like ridicule.. Maybe they deserve it, or it's just the truth, and if it comes out that way then so be it. But it really hits the nail on the head.
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