Torah and Jewish Idea > Torah and Jewish Idea
The Three Oaths - Wikipedia
Tzvi Ben Roshel1:
--- Quote from: Lubab on August 13, 2008, 04:57:19 PM ---What I don't understand about that answer is, the pact is between us and G-d, not between us and the nations so I wouldn't think the nations breaking their oath would have any impact on our deal with G-d.
I think the real answer is that we didn't do it en mass as you said and that there's no indication that this is a halachic statement at all.
--- End quote ---
Rav Kahane writes " and their oaths were interdependent" , he then brings proof of similar situations for example- (Bereshit Rabbah, 74:15) and much more. For example- just to summ it up-it is just like when G-d writes in the Torah not to attack Moav, but once they attacked Israel and violated their oath, so was Israel freed from their part, and David then could and did attack them. And other similar situations.
The pact or Oaths are between us and the nations, obviously they did not take place "officially" like we made a contract or something, but "Aggadically" or Metaphorically it is an understanding. Maybe just like g-d asked the nations if they would accept the Torah- it could be their representative angel (like in this case).
With your second statement you do realise that you are contradicting yourself completly from what you said first.
Lubab:
--- Quote from: Tzvi Ben Roshel on August 13, 2008, 05:11:28 PM ---
--- Quote from: Lubab on August 13, 2008, 04:57:19 PM ---What I don't understand about that answer is, the pact is between us and G-d, not between us and the nations so I wouldn't think the nations breaking their oath would have any impact on our deal with G-d.
I think the real answer is that we didn't do it en mass as you said and that there's no indication that this is a halachic statement at all.
--- End quote ---
With your second statement you do realise that you are contradicting yourself completly from what you said first.
--- End quote ---
No I'm not. It can apply for all time as does all the words of Chazal in the Talmud but not be a legally binding thing e.g. it's lesson applies for all times regarding a certain kind relationship we have with G-d.
judeanoncapta:
--- Quote from: Shlomo on August 13, 2008, 04:20:39 PM ---judeanoncapta, you know... you can argue a point without the personal insults.
--- End quote ---
I apologize for offending you.
My animus comes from the knowledge of the incredible damage done to Jewish minds by Lubab's view of Aggadata.
I have to fight ideologies that I feel are killing the Jewish people.
I would be lacking in Ahavat Yisrael if I equivocated on such major issues such as these.
Kahane-Was-Right BT:
--- Quote from: Lubab on August 13, 2008, 04:39:46 PM ---"Rising up like a wave/swarm" I believe is the language used there. Everyone needs to be joining together to use force en masse, and that's not what happened here.
--- End quote ---
Have you read at all about how the early yishuv was defended against the Arabs? (btw, Arabs were a majority in the land at that time as well).
And I would also point out that were it not for the Jewish Underground, which really wasn't as small as you suggest, because often their operations were aided, abetted, designed with and participated in by the Haganah even though after the fact the Haganah and erev rav dictators tried to pin it all on the scapegoat revisionist factions (whom they helped at times for certain bombings), were it not for this underground, the British would NEVER have left, and the British even admit that.
--- Quote ---There's no question there was a small underground movement that used force and that applied political pressure to the British but in the end the British and the U.N. etc. AGREED to give it to us.
--- End quote ---
It was only the violence that led to the British even consulting the UN in the first place. And they were secretly hoping the UN would refer it back to them who could then stay there indefinitely. Look up Earnest Bevin. This stuff is documented. Political considerations led to the decision to consult the UN, but it was the violence that necessitated any action on the matter in the first place. But the UN then said there should be a UN committee to decide on it.... and eventually the UN resolution.
(Also keep in mind, that while Israel certainly had the better arguments - there was like a 7 point summary by Israel in favor, with 7 point response by Arabs in opposition to the resolution - all the Arab points were full of lies and half truths and were just rationalizations for jihad quite obviously, while the Israel claims were historically accurate and made sense, this can be found in "genesis 1948 by Dan Kurzman" and I'm sure other works as well - despite having better arguments, it took serious bribery, espionage and other political intrigue to get the votes the way Israel did!)
I don't think it is beneath mentioning that it's absurd that the Jewish nation would be bound by gentile law (A UN resolution? Please!) rather than Jewish Torah law.
The british wanted to keep their empire. The Balfour Declaration many years earlier was an empty promise and complete deception. This is documented and evidence reflects it. Consider for instance: "transjordan" to the hashemites.
I think there is just no escaping the fact that violence is what led to our success in Israel. It was just violence. You seem to suggest that if it was the violence as the main factor, then according to the 3 oaths, it wasn't just?
Kahane-Was-Right BT:
--- Quote from: judeanoncapta on August 12, 2008, 04:14:43 PM ---The Three Oaths were a rhetorical device used by Chazal to try to calm down the rowdy Jews who kept on trying one disastrous revolt after another.
--- End quote ---
Please provide source/evidence or at least the rationale for this explanation. This will be helpful to defending your stance, but it is also I think necessary for those without as much knowledge as you on this issue (myself included). This answer seems to presume a lot of unseen information.
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