Torah and Jewish Idea > Torah and Jewish Idea
Which Siddur is your favorite?
judeanoncapta:
--- Quote from: Kahane-Was-Right BT on November 24, 2008, 07:13:04 AM ---
--- Quote from: q_q_ on November 24, 2008, 06:09:20 AM ---
--- Quote from: דוד בן זאב אריה on November 24, 2008, 01:10:44 AM ---I am Ashkanazi but I speak a Sefardic Hebrew
--- End quote ---
I doubt it.
You probably speak ashkefardic, like anybody else whose hebrew has been hijacked by the secular state of israel.
Do you distinguish between aleph and ayin?
--- End quote ---
Ok, but many Sefaradim pronounced it that way before the state was founded also. Not all Sefaradim had the correct formulation.
--- End quote ---
Actually that is not necessarily true. I know morrocans who tell me that in Morroco and when they first arrived in Israel, they were not only pronouncing an Ayin and Heth, they were also pronouncing a Teth a Ssadi and a Qof.
Kahane-Was-Right BT:
--- Quote from: judeanoncapta on November 24, 2008, 07:51:51 AM ---
--- Quote from: Kahane-Was-Right BT on November 24, 2008, 07:13:04 AM ---
--- Quote from: q_q_ on November 24, 2008, 06:09:20 AM ---
--- Quote from: דוד בן זאב אריה on November 24, 2008, 01:10:44 AM ---I am Ashkanazi but I speak a Sefardic Hebrew
--- End quote ---
I doubt it.
You probably speak ashkefardic, like anybody else whose hebrew has been hijacked by the secular state of israel.
Do you distinguish between aleph and ayin?
--- End quote ---
Ok, but many Sefaradim pronounced it that way before the state was founded also. Not all Sefaradim had the correct formulation.
--- End quote ---
Actually that is not necessarily true. I know morrocans who tell me that in Morroco and when they first arrived in Israel, they were not only pronouncing an Ayin and Heth, they were also pronouncing a Teth a Ssadi and a Qof.
--- End quote ---
Really? So they just adopted the Israeli way? The Teymanim have kept their own pronunciation no?
q_q_:
--- Quote from: Kahane-Was-Right BT on November 24, 2008, 07:13:04 AM ---
--- Quote from: q_q_ on November 24, 2008, 06:09:20 AM ---
--- Quote from: דוד בן זאב אריה on November 24, 2008, 01:10:44 AM ---I am Ashkanazi but I speak a Sefardic Hebrew
--- End quote ---
I doubt it.
You probably speak ashkefardic, like anybody else whose hebrew has been hijacked by the secular state of israel.
Do you distinguish between aleph and ayin?
--- End quote ---
Ok, but many Sefaradim pronounced it that way before the state was founded also. Not all Sefaradim had the correct formulation.
--- End quote ---
What you say there is so ridiculous, that whatever you are trying to say, it's not easy to link your first sentence to the second sentence, and get a sensible result.
You just haven't thought it through.
What do you mean by "That way".
if you mean "distinguished", then, your first sentence is blatantly obvious and unnecessary since anybody would agree on that.. You do that -very often- so I am guessing I interpreted you correctly there. Then in your second sentence, in some attempt to find some hole in what I said, you are actually making a claim along the lines of, the correct Sefaradi pronunciation being to pronounce aleph and ayin the same. And this is the correct formulation.
if you mean, "same", then I would be interested to know which Sefaradim pronounce/pronounced them the same. Sure, there are many educated in schools that do modern hebrew, and so they just don't know or weren't taught the traditional Sefaradi pronunciation.
Anyhow, having replied regarding your logic. I will now reply with some facts.
Judea explained that the Saadya Gaon (who lived a long time ago) has a accurate tradition on the hebrew language , describing how it should be pronounced. He says every letter should be pronounced distinctly.
The Rema , who is a big authority amongst ashkenazim, actually says that ideally the person that leads te service should be able to distinguish between aleph and ayin.
The Sefaradim generally agree that the yemenites have it most accurate, they distinguish the most, or rather, their tradition distinguishes the most.
There are still issues, sin and samech pronounced the same, the distinction has been lost.
You could claim that nobody knows how it should be pronounced and nobody can prove over another, so anybody's "tradition" or way, is as good as anybody elses.
You should then be clear that you are differing with the Rema and the Saadya Gaon (and rav yosef kairo , shulchan aruch) if you claim that aleph and ayin are authentically pronounced exactly the same.
You are welcome to. But the idea that some sephardim pronounced them same, and suggesting it is correct to pronounce them the same.. There isn't really any basis of logic or reaosning behind what you say. If you were some then I suppose you could make that argument.. but you didn't even mention any.
muman613:
Ok q_q_,
It is good to see you are as prickly with others too... My question to you on this subject is 'What do you think is the 'proper' pronunciation of hebrew?" and "Why?"... It seems you are very judgemental about this. This is also confusing in light of your previous protest about my incorrect assumption... You are Ashkenazi yet you prefer to daven Sefardi. I have heard that it is minhag to daven in the nusach of your father. Is there a reason you are so fond of Sephardic nusach?
muman613
q_q_:
--- Quote from: muman613 on November 24, 2008, 11:55:32 AM ---Ok q_q_,
It is good to see you are as prickly with others too... My question to you on this subject is 'What do you think is the 'proper' pronunciation of hebrew?" and "Why?"... It seems you are very judgemental about this. This is also confusing in light of your previous protest about my incorrect assumption... You are Ashkenazi yet you prefer to daven Sefaradi. I have heard that it is minhag to daven in the nusach of your father. Is there a reason you are so fond of Sefardic nusach?
muman613
--- End quote ---
I didn't say I prefer to daven Sefaradi
And don't confuse pronunciation with nusach.. I don't do Sefaradi pronunciation, or Sefaradi nusach.
infact, the Sefaradim (generally at least) do not distinguish between the Taf with a dot and without a dot.
Ashkenazim do at least distinguish (though the pronunciation is still questionable, since saf/samech/sin, same).
The Teimani-yemenites do. I don't think that they consider their pronunciation Sefaradi.
There is an issue with their pronunciation too, they do a Jimmel, which breaks a/the pattern of other soft/hard letters.
It is difficult changing a pronunciation.. my interest is largely intellectual, and that is flawed.
I do respect what judea is doing, which is learning with rabbi bar hayyim , who has researched what is most likely the most accurate way to pronounce hebrew correctly.
He goes by the Saadya Gaon for consonants. I'm not sure about what his vowels are based on. And he hasn't gone into why in particular the saadya gaon's tradition is so strong..
I am also not familiar with all his arguments, but if you are interested, here are the main ones. and how he pronounces the letters.
http://www.archive.org/details/TrueHebrewPronounciation
(there is a misspelling, permanent in the URL! pronunciation is the correct spelling)
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