Torah and Jewish Idea > Torah and Jewish Idea
Which Siddur is your favorite?
muman613:
--- Quote from: q_q_ on November 24, 2008, 12:13:11 PM ---<snip>
http://www.archive.org/details/TrueHebrewPronounciation
(there is a misspelling, permanent in the URL! pronunciation is the correct spelling)
--- End quote ---
Thank you...
דוד בן זאב אריה:
--- Quote from: q_q_ on November 24, 2008, 06:09:20 AM ---
--- Quote from: דוד בן זאב אריה on November 24, 2008, 01:10:44 AM ---I am Ashkanazi but I speak a Sefardic Hebrew
--- End quote ---
I doubt it.
You probably speak ashkefardic, like anybody else whose hebrew has been hijacked by the secular state of israel.
Do you distinguish between aleph and ayin?
--- End quote ---
I don't live in Israel. I am Ashkanazi and I do speak a Sefardic brand of Hebrew. It is Beit Kennesit not Bes. It is Shabbat not Shabbos. It is Sukkot not Sukkos. When I go up to the Torah you I don't sound like Ashkansi.
q_q_:
--- Quote from: דוד בן זאב אריה on November 24, 2008, 01:44:42 PM ---
--- Quote from: q_q_ on November 24, 2008, 06:09:20 AM ---
--- Quote from: דוד בן זאב אריה on November 24, 2008, 01:10:44 AM ---I am Ashkanazi but I speak a Sefardic Hebrew
--- End quote ---
I doubt it.
You probably speak ashkefardic, like anybody else whose hebrew has been hijacked by the secular state of israel.
Do you distinguish between aleph and ayin?
--- End quote ---
I don't live in Israel. I am Ashkanazi and I do speak a Sefardic brand of Hebrew. It is Beit Kennesit not Bes. It is Shabbat not Shabbos. It is Sukkot not Sukkos. When I go up to the Torah you I don't sound like Ashkansi.
--- End quote ---
you don't dinstinguish.
but you don't want to admit it.
You avoided the question for a reason.
what you don't want to admit is that you are not pronouncing it sephardi either.
You are probably pronouncing it how you were taught.
ASHKEFARDI
And the way you speak, it looks like you don't have much respect for the ashkenazi tradition either. Saying things like *IT IS SHABBAT NOT SHABBOS*.
You act like you are unique here. Don't you know,
Shabbat is really how MOST modern orthodox jews pronounce it. It's the way it is taught in modern orthodox schools, and it is very difficult to change. You are just following that.
It's state of israel pronunciation. A man made thing.
Why is state of israel pronunciation the way it is? Well, there is an obvious answer, (I don't know if it can be proven wrong)..
The secular zionist founders (ashkenazim) wanted to turn their backs on their roots. So they picked the sephardi pronunciation, but they weren't serious enough to take on some details, so they simplified it, made it less sephardi.
Kahane-Was-Right BT:
--- Quote from: q_q_ on November 24, 2008, 08:10:47 AM ---
--- Quote from: Kahane-Was-Right BT on November 24, 2008, 07:13:04 AM ---
--- Quote from: q_q_ on November 24, 2008, 06:09:20 AM ---
--- Quote from: דוד בן זאב אריה on November 24, 2008, 01:10:44 AM ---I am Ashkanazi but I speak a Sefardic Hebrew
--- End quote ---
I doubt it.
You probably speak ashkefardic, like anybody else whose hebrew has been hijacked by the secular state of israel.
Do you distinguish between aleph and ayin?
--- End quote ---
Ok, but many Sefaradim pronounced it that way before the state was founded also. Not all Sefaradim had the correct formulation.
--- End quote ---
What you say there is so ridiculous, that whatever you are trying to say, it's not easy to link your first sentence to the second sentence, and get a sensible result.
You just haven't thought it through.
What do you mean by "That way".
if you mean "distinguished", then, your first sentence is blatantly obvious and unnecessary since anybody would agree on that.. You do that -very often- so I am guessing I interpreted you correctly there. Then in your second sentence, in some attempt to find some hole in what I said, you are actually making a claim along the lines of, the correct Sefaradi pronunciation being to pronounce aleph and ayin the same. And this is the correct formulation.
if you mean, "same", then I would be interested to know which Sefaradim pronounce/pronounced them the same. Sure, there are many educated in schools that do modern hebrew, and so they just don't know or weren't taught the traditional Sefaradi pronunciation.
Anyhow, having replied regarding your logic. I will now reply with some facts.
Judea explained that the Saadya Gaon (who lived a long time ago) has a accurate tradition on the hebrew language , describing how it should be pronounced. He says every letter should be pronounced distinctly.
The Rema , who is a big authority amongst ashkenazim, actually says that ideally the person that leads te service should be able to distinguish between aleph and ayin.
The Sefaradim generally agree that the yemenites have it most accurate, they distinguish the most, or rather, their tradition distinguishes the most.
There are still issues, sin and samech pronounced the same, the distinction has been lost.
You could claim that nobody knows how it should be pronounced and nobody can prove over another, so anybody's "tradition" or way, is as good as anybody elses.
You should then be clear that you are differing with the Rema and the Saadya Gaon (and rav yosef kairo , shulchan aruch) if you claim that aleph and ayin are authentically pronounced exactly the same.
You are welcome to. But the idea that some Sefaradim pronounced them same, and suggesting it is correct to pronounce them the same.. There isn't really any basis of logic or reaosning behind what you say. If you were some then I suppose you could make that argument.. but you didn't even mention any.
--- End quote ---
Wow qq, ease up. You're responding here like a snappy 12 year old girl lashing out at her parents. Not to mention your logic is way off. Judeanoncapta clearly understood what I was saying and answered me quite appropriately. I accepted his input/correction.
judeanoncapta:
--- Quote from: muman613 on November 24, 2008, 11:55:32 AM ---I have heard that it is minhag to daven in the nusach of your father.
muman613
--- End quote ---
Incorrect.
The only minhagh with halachic force is one that is
A) A practice that is done by all of the Jews in the city where you live and....
B) One that has something to do with Issur and Heter. ie. Not eating meat slaughtered in a certain way or not doing something on Shabbath that may or may not lead to desecration of Shabbath
Therefore one is not required to pray whatever nusach his father prayed because all Jews in his city do not pray the same nusach and because it has nothing to do with Issur and Heter. No nusach is more Assur or Mutar than the other.
Thank you.
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