Author Topic: JTF members - Chabad House,Mumbai Help  (Read 42246 times)

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Offline Rubystars

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Re: JTF members - Chabad House,Mumbai Help
« Reply #125 on: December 08, 2008, 04:28:48 PM »
Tell me this, when has there been a modern nationalist movement that hasn't been anti-Semitic in some fashion? Even Zionism has been split between the real Zionists like Chaim and the fake Zionists like Sharon.

Do you really think this Hindu Nationalism will end differently?

You have an excuse for every evil thing your people do.
and you seem to have no faith in American,UK,India, Israeli government which give visas to RSS/BJP  organisation/leaders and allow them to operate in their shores, and rightly so.. they are not the trouble makers. Muslims are

You're both just as evil to me.

Offline SavetheWest

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Re: JTF members - Chabad House,Mumbai Help
« Reply #126 on: December 08, 2008, 04:29:59 PM »
People, please let's not all get into a fight here.  

This whole thread is becoming very awkward, and I don't want that to happen.  There are some things we might have to agree to disagree on.  

As you all know, JTF wants a Torah-true Kahanist Jewish state of Israel.  That means neutralizing and getting rid of the Arab fifth column threat.  India is in a similar position to Israel, even though they're a bigger country.  So with all the terrorist attacks they've faced, I can't really blame them for wanting India to be a Hindu country where Sikhs, Jains and Christians and other non-troublemakers can freely practice their religions.

As a Jew, I don't like seeing any religious group persecuted.  However, I should also remind everyone that JTF vehemently opposes missionizing to Jews.  So I personally will not criticize Hindu Zionist for wanting the same thing in his own country.  Now with that being said, I don't think JTF should align with any political party that persecutes minorities, since Jews have always been a minority.  

We need to think about this.  We want America to remain a First World country (as in mostly white, with Judeo-Christian values).  We want a Torah true Kahanist Jewish state in Israel.  We want Europe to remain white, non-Muslim.  So while we won't agree with Hindu Zionist on everything, we should support them against the Muslim threat.



Lisa. Thanks.  We have to agree to disagree.

Offline Zelhar

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Re: JTF members - Chabad House,Mumbai Help
« Reply #127 on: December 08, 2008, 04:31:27 PM »
You have an excuse for every evil thing your people do.
and you seem to have no faith in American,UK,India, Israeli government which give visas to RSS/BJP  organisation/leaders and allow them to operate in their shores, and rightly so.. they are not the trouble makers. Muslims are
I think you could end the argument if you said that the hindu militants who commit murder belong behind bars (if not executed) and that the RSS wish to have nothing to do with them or with such actions.

Offline Rubystars

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Re: JTF members - Chabad House,Mumbai Help
« Reply #128 on: December 08, 2008, 04:32:02 PM »
You have an excuse for every evil thing your people do.
and you seem to have no faith in American,UK,India, Israeli government which give visas to RSS/BJP  organisation/leaders and allow them to operate in their shores, and rightly so.. they are not the trouble makers. Muslims are
I think you could end the argument if you said that the hindu militants who commit murder belong behind bars (if not executed) and that the RSS wish to have nothing to do with them or with such actions.

The RSS are some of the militants.

Offline ✡ Hindu Zionist ॐ

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Re: JTF members - Chabad House,Mumbai Help
« Reply #129 on: December 08, 2008, 04:32:14 PM »
People, please let's not all get into a fight here.  

This whole thread is becoming very awkward, and I don't want that to happen.  There are some things we might have to agree to disagree on.  

As you all know, JTF wants a Torah-true Kahanist Jewish state of Israel.  That means neutralizing and getting rid of the Arab fifth column threat.  India is in a similar position to Israel, even though they're a bigger country.  So with all the terrorist attacks they've faced, I can't really blame them for wanting India to be a Hindu country where Sikhs, Jains and Christians and other non-troublemakers can freely practice their religions.

As a Jew, I don't like seeing any religious group persecuted.  However, I should also remind everyone that JTF vehemently opposes missionizing to Jews.  So I personally will not criticize Hindu Zionist for wanting the same thing in his own country.  Now with that being said, I don't think JTF should align with any political party that persecutes minorities, since Jews have always been a minority.  

We need to think about this.  We want America to remain a First World country (as in mostly white, with Judeo-Christian values).  We want a Torah true Kahanist Jewish state in Israel.  We want Europe to remain white, non-Muslim.  So while we won't agree with Hindu Zionist on everything, we should support them against the Muslim threat.


i missed this..

agreed every word of Gold.

Offline SavetheWest

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Re: JTF members - Chabad House,Mumbai Help
« Reply #130 on: December 08, 2008, 04:34:44 PM »
Tell me this, when has there been a modern nationalist movement that hasn't been anti-Semitic in some fashion? Even Zionism has been split between the real Zionists like Chaim and the fake Zionists like Sharon.

Do you really think this Hindu Nationalism will end differently?

You have an excuse for every evil thing your people do.
and you seem to have no faith in American,UK,India, Israeli government which give visas to RSS/BJP  organisation/leaders and allow them to operate in their shores, and rightly so.. they are not the trouble makers. Muslims are

You're both just as evil to me.

Just one last thing.  America was an example of nationalism and no anti-Semitism in its foundation.  So were the non Marxist independence movements in Ireland, Scotland and Corsica.  South Africa, Malta and the Phillipines as well.  

Offline Zelhar

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Re: JTF members - Chabad House,Mumbai Help
« Reply #131 on: December 08, 2008, 04:34:51 PM »
You have an excuse for every evil thing your people do.
and you seem to have no faith in American,UK,India, Israeli government which give visas to RSS/BJP  organisation/leaders and allow them to operate in their shores, and rightly so.. they are not the trouble makers. Muslims are
I think you could end the argument if you said that the hindu militants who commit murder belong behind bars (if not executed) and that the RSS wish to have nothing to do with them or with such actions.

The RSS are some of the militants.

I don't consider some lefty/muzy 'news report' as a reliable source. You have to come up with better evidence to back this claim.

Offline SavetheWest

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Re: JTF members - Chabad House,Mumbai Help
« Reply #132 on: December 08, 2008, 04:36:16 PM »
Rubystars.  I know we both have strong opinions but I agree with you on 99.99999% everything else.

Offline Rubystars

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Re: JTF members - Chabad House,Mumbai Help
« Reply #133 on: December 08, 2008, 04:36:50 PM »
You have an excuse for every evil thing your people do.
and you seem to have no faith in American,UK,India, Israeli government which give visas to RSS/BJP  organisation/leaders and allow them to operate in their shores, and rightly so.. they are not the trouble makers. Muslims are
I think you could end the argument if you said that the hindu militants who commit murder belong behind bars (if not executed) and that the RSS wish to have nothing to do with them or with such actions.

The RSS are some of the militants.

I don't consider some lefty/muzy 'news report' as a reliable source. You have to come up with better evidence to back this claim.

Turn a blind eye to the truth if you want. I know it makes it easier for everyone not to start any trouble.

Offline Zelhar

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Re: JTF members - Chabad House,Mumbai Help
« Reply #134 on: December 08, 2008, 04:51:56 PM »
Quote
Turn a blind eye to the truth if you want. I know it makes it easier for everyone not to start any trouble.
That's the last thing I would do. I believe in things backed by reliable data. If you say that the RSS is behind some of the murderous attack, then you should bring, for example, a citation of RSS pleaders who inciting the mob to commit such actions. If I only read muslims or leftists empty accusations why should I believe them ?

And as for the other evil things you described such as child marriage and infanticide- As far as I know the BJP is pushing for modernization and for the end of such traditions, so I thing it is actually a reason to commend them.

Offline q_q_

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Re: JTF members - Chabad House,Mumbai Help
« Reply #135 on: December 08, 2008, 04:52:06 PM »
You have an excuse for every evil thing your people do.
and you seem to have no faith in American,UK,India, Israeli government which give visas to RSS/BJP  organisation/leaders and allow them to operate in their shores, and rightly so.. they are not the trouble makers. Muslims are
I think you could end the argument if you said that the hindu militants who commit murder belong behind bars (if not executed) and that the RSS wish to have nothing to do with them or with such actions.

What on earth are you talking about Zelhar, this is a kahanist forum.

Kahanists have always been in favour of counter-terrorism, rabbi kahane never condemned that. Never!

How can you have such a blatant double standard. How unwise.

Of course, you would probably say that certain murders are Ok and certain ones aren't. But then be specific, don't make some kind of request for a formally worded condemnation and then choose the words so badly that you wouldn't agree to it yourself if you thought about it.

Offline Zelhar

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Re: JTF members - Chabad House,Mumbai Help
« Reply #136 on: December 08, 2008, 04:57:19 PM »
I think murder is by definition WRONG. If some loss of life is caused as collateral damage due to self defense- this kind of killing is NOT murder.

Offline q_q_

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Re: JTF members - Chabad House,Mumbai Help
« Reply #137 on: December 08, 2008, 05:00:22 PM »
I think murder is by definition WRONG. If some loss of life is caused as collateral damage due to self defense- this kind of killing is NOT murder.

how about muslims blow up a bus, and jews blow up 2 of their busses.

that is classic kahanist counter-terrorism.  Rabbi Kahane never said he was -for- it (because he wanted to stay within the law).   But he always defended it and said he would not condemn it.

under a kahanist govt, it wouldn't happen, since kahanist would have an army and wouldn't have to do that. But without it, then indeed it would. This is all pure kahanism.

Offline Zelhar

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Re: JTF members - Chabad House,Mumbai Help
« Reply #138 on: December 08, 2008, 05:09:38 PM »
If there is a better way to defend ourselves I'd consider such action as murder. Still, there are various degrees of murder, so I might consider such action as equivalent to mercy murder.

Offline q_q_

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Re: JTF members - Chabad House,Mumbai Help
« Reply #139 on: December 08, 2008, 05:28:11 PM »
If there is a better way to defend ourselves I'd consider such action as murder. Still, there are various degrees of murder, so I might consider such action as equivalent to mercy murder.

seems like nitpicking, anyhow

What is "mercy murder" ?

Is that supposed to be a merciful murder?

The israeli govt is not throwing the arabs out. So,

do you think blowing up a bus of muslims is "defence" ?

most wouldn't. even if most of them want to destroy israel.

It's revenge! It's fighting back to get them off our land. Which is exactly what they do to us.

Rabbi Kahane would not have condemned that. Do you?

It's perhaps the most controversial area of kahanism, but it's fairly fundamental. . 

As Kahane said,

If you don't sink to their level, then you don't sink to their level, you sink 6ft under.

We should bury respectability before respectability buries us

In the arab world, if you are nice then that is percieved as weak, and that's not good, it's bad!

Kahane often said as a defence of it (see debate with dershowitz). It's the only controverisal part of it. Kahane said,  "what are we suposed to do?"   
Notice that Kahane never condemned arabs for terrorist attacks against us.  They make their claim, we make ours. We can't both share the land.
He did say at one point, that he would have settled even for the 1948 borders, had they accepted it (I guess he woludn't have let them vote or become a majourity).  But the arabs want us out.

Blowing up a bus of arabs is not really defence.  Perhaps not even what we now call counter-terrorism.  But it's terrorism in response to their terrorism.

Rabbi Kahane defended it and would not condemn it.

Offline Zelhar

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Re: JTF members - Chabad House,Mumbai Help
« Reply #140 on: December 08, 2008, 05:40:14 PM »
I would not condone such act nor condemn it. I personally wouldn't take part in such act. It would feel less awful if the targeted Arabs are all adult male Islamists (such was the case in the Baruch Goldstein incident).

Offline muman613

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Re: JTF members - Chabad House,Mumbai Help
« Reply #141 on: December 08, 2008, 06:14:30 PM »
Sounds like some people would be willing to worship an idol if it meant getting rid of Arabs from the land... That is not what our G-d asks from us. Idolotry is one of three sins which a Jew should die before commiting.

You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline muman613

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Re: JTF members - Chabad House,Mumbai Help
« Reply #142 on: December 08, 2008, 06:21:03 PM »
Maybe it was a coincidence, but there is a good article on A7 news site which I will repost here:

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/Articles/Article.aspx/8423


Self-Restraint
Kislev 11, 5769, 08 December 08 11:53
by Prof. Paul Eidelberg

(IsraelNN.com) US Admiral Bull Halsey, a rational and responsible man, said, "Hit hard, hit fast, hit often." Rationality and responsibility are qualities quite foreign to those who shape Israel's policy toward its enemy, the Palestinian Authority. Their policy is "Hit softly, hit slowly, and hit seldom."

In Hebrew this policy is called havlaga - "self-restraint". This policy is motivated by fear of world opinion, perhaps also by the desire to display Israel's moral superiority vis-à-vis the cruelty of her Arab enemies. It is an utterly inane and immoral policy.

Havlaga prolongs the war. It therefore increases the number of Jewish as well as Arab casualties. But let me focus on the character of the government that pursues this policy of havlaga - so sickeningly obvious in its failure to retaliate against the constant bombing of Sderot by the Arabs in Gaza.

This craven policy reveals the government's lack of heartfelt concern for the lives of Jews. Paradoxical as it may seem, this government policy of havlaga undermines the sanctity of human life. It encourages the enemy and increases Arab - indeed, the world's - contempt for Israel. Havlaga is a vile policy, and its proponents must be deemed bungled or base human beings.

Yet this has been the policy of Israeli prime ministers and their cohorts since the signing of the Israel-PLO Agreement of September 1993. How demoralizing, how revolting!

And yet, not a single party in the Knesset protests against this cowardly and self-destructive policy. Even the religious parties, which proclaim the principle of pikuach nefesh - "saving life" - say nothing about the danger of havlaga to Jewish life. The religious parties are the most culpable.

The rabbis of old taught us that "whoever is merciful to the cruel, will ultimately be cruel to the merciful." Hence, we should expect the religious parties to denounce the policy of havlaga loudly and repeatedly. They should expose the irrationality of such concepts as "collateral damage" and "proportionality" when fighting against a genocidal enemy - a satanic enemy, as witnessed by how Muslims tortured before murdering Jews in Mumbai.

The rabbis should say, "Hit hard, hit fast and hit often." But this would appear "un-Jewish" and "immoral." Yet Rabbi Judah Halevi said: "With whatever is at hand, you shall kill."

King Solomon said, "To everything there is a season - a time for war and a time for peace." Each time has its own laws. There are laws for war and there are laws for peace. Havlaga is not one of the laws of war.

Consider the verse, "When you go forth to battle against your enemies...." (Deuteronomy 20:1) The sages ask: "What is meant by 'against your enemies'"? They answer: "God said, 'Confront them as enemies. Just as they show you no mercy, so should you not show them any mercy.'" (Tanchuma, Shoftim 15)

Israel's greatest monarch, King David, said:

"I have pursued mine enemies and overtaken them. Neither did I withdraw till they were consumed. I have smitten them through, so that they are not able to rise; they are fallen under my feet. For Thou has girded me with strength unto the battle. Thou hast subdued under me those that rose up against me. Thou hast also made mine enemies turn their backs unto me, and I did cut off them that hate me. ...Then did I beat them small as the dust before the wind; I did cast them out as the mire of the streets." (Psalms 18:38-43)

These words may seem cruel to effete, overly civilized Jews. They would rather Jews be the victims than the victors of war - the less to worry about anti-Semitism, or so they foolishly think. How many Jews have been murdered, how many Jewish children have been made orphans, how many Jewish men, women and children have been crippled for life, how many Jewish families have suffered so horribly because of this senseless, cowardly and futile policy of havlaga?

And how many Jews (as well as Arabs) would be alive today had the government of Israel pursued a cruel, but quick and decisive, war against the Palestinian Authority before the PA could accumulate so many weapons, and indoctrinate a generation of Arab children to hate and kill Jews?

The Jewish people are known (even by their enemies) for their kindness and mercy, which is why Arabs store weapons in hospitals and schools, and shield themselves behind women and children. In time of war, however, "do not show [your enemy] any pity" (Deuteronomy 7:17), on which verse the Ramban comments: "Through the mercy of fools all justice is lost."

Justice, justice is what Israel stands for: justice has ever been the sacred cause of the Jewish people. Today, however, inasmuch as Israeli governments display no confidence in the justice of Israel's cause, is it any wonder that the Jew-haters of this world now question whether Israel has a right to exist, indeed, call for Israel's eradication?
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline q_q_

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Re: JTF members - Chabad House,Mumbai Help
« Reply #143 on: December 08, 2008, 06:53:56 PM »
I would not condone such act nor condemn it. I personally wouldn't take part in such act. It would feel less awful if the targeted Arabs are all adult male Islamists (such was the case in the Baruch Goldstein incident).

And so therefore don't expect other militant nationalists to make some ridiculous statement like "I condemn murder"!

Hindus face the same threat from muslims as Jews do.

And there are many striking natural parallels between India and Israel.  It's a democratic country(as in majourity vote) with a weak leftist government and a growing muslim population and a threat from their muslim neighbour pakistan, which is essentially another state set up for the muslims. 

Offline Rubystars

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Re: JTF members - Chabad House,Mumbai Help
« Reply #144 on: December 08, 2008, 07:14:59 PM »
Sounds like some people would be willing to worship an idol if it meant getting rid of Arabs from the land... That is not what our G-d asks from us. Idolotry is one of three sins which a Jew should die before commiting.



What are the other two? I'm curious.

Offline muman613

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Re: JTF members - Chabad House,Mumbai Help
« Reply #145 on: December 08, 2008, 07:52:13 PM »
Sounds like some people would be willing to worship an idol if it meant getting rid of Arabs from the land... That is not what our G-d asks from us. Idolotry is one of three sins which a Jew should die before commiting.



What are the other two? I'm curious.

Hello RubyStars,

Here is a link to Chabad:

http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/581438/jewish/Is-a-Jew-required-to-die-rather-than-disobey-a-Torah-command.htm

Quote

Three Cardinal Sins

With regards to the three cardinal sins – 1 idolatry, 2 murder, and 3 sexual sins (such as adultery, incest, and homosexuality) – we are obligated to allow our lives to be sacrificed rather than transgress them. Regarding these sins, it makes no difference who is the one (or ones) compelling the Jew to transgress, or in the presence of how many people it is done.

To review... The three sins which a Jew should die before commiting are 1) Idolatry 2) Murder and 3) Sexual Sins...

You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Rubystars

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Re: JTF members - Chabad House,Mumbai Help
« Reply #146 on: December 08, 2008, 08:53:33 PM »
Thanks Muman I always like to learn more.

Offline q_q_

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Re: JTF members - Chabad House,Mumbai Help
« Reply #147 on: December 08, 2008, 08:58:29 PM »
<snip>

To review... The three sins which a Jew should die before commiting are 1) Idolatry 2) Murder and 3) Sexual Sins...



There are in a sense, 4 things. (or to be traditional, let's say 3, +1).

Those 3 if done in private. (the famous 3 cardinal sins)

But any sin if done in public

you can hear this from rabbi kahane in his talk at camp sdei chemed, but there are a number of sites online that mention this and the relevant gemara.

Sanhedrin 74A,B

http://biurchametz.blogspot.com/2005/09/pikuach-nefesh-and-land-for-peace.html
R' Yochanan said in the name of R' Shimon ben Yehotzadak: "It was decided by a vote in the loft of the house of Nitezeh in Lod: For all the transgressions in the Torah, if a man is told, 'Transgress and you will not be killed,' he should transgress and not be killed, except for idol worship and sexual relations and bloodshed." (Sanhedrin 74a)

...
in public, even for a minor commandment one should be killed rather than transgress."

What is a "minor commandment"? Rava bar R' Yitzhak said in the name of Rav: Even to change the lace of one's shoe.

And how many is "in public"? R' Yaakov said: R' Yochanan said, "'In public' requires at least ten people." (Sanhedrin 74a-b)



Offline Rubystars

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Re: JTF members - Chabad House,Mumbai Help
« Reply #148 on: December 08, 2008, 10:36:39 PM »
Thank you too QQ.

I wanted to add that I know a lot of what I mentioned in this thread involves a touchy situation. Chaim is absolutely correct about India's nukes being a protective barrier for Israel and about Muslim evil. I would never wish to take that protection from Israel. I love Israel and would like to make sure it stays safe. I just think JTF needs to be careful who the organization deals with or make alliances with, because not every enemy of your enemy is your friend. I'll leave it at that for tonight.

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Re: JTF members - Chabad House,Mumbai Help
« Reply #149 on: December 08, 2008, 11:30:43 PM »
<snip>
There are in a sense, 4 things. (or to be traditional, let's say 3, +1).

Those 3 if done in private. (the famous 3 cardinal sins)

But any sin if done in public

you can hear this from rabbi kahane in his talk at camp sdei chemed, but there are a number of sites online that mention this and the relevant gemara.

Sanhedrin 74A,B

http://biurchametz.blogspot.com/2005/09/pikuach-nefesh-and-land-for-peace.html
R' Yochanan said in the name of R' Shimon ben Yehotzadak: "It was decided by a vote in the loft of the house of Nitezeh in Lod: For all the transgressions in the Torah, if a man is told, 'Transgress and you will not be killed,' he should transgress and not be killed, except for idol worship and sexual relations and bloodshed." (Sanhedrin 74a)

...
in public, even for a minor commandment one should be killed rather than transgress."

What is a "minor commandment"? Rava bar R' Yitzhak said in the name of Rav: Even to change the lace of one's shoe.

And how many is "in public"? R' Yaakov said: R' Yochanan said, "'In public' requires at least ten people." (Sanhedrin 74a-b)




Yes q_q, that Chabad site which I linked to includes this story...

From that site it is states like this:

Quote

Sha'at Hashemad

If an oppressive government arises and sets for itself the goal of eradicating Judaism and Torah, we are commanded to sacrifice our lives rather than deviate one iota from Jewish law or custom. The example given in the Talmud4 is if the prevailing Jewish custom is to wear white shoelaces, and the non-Jewish custom is to wear red shoelaces, then one must give up his life rather than change the color shoelaces he wears!

In this instance, it is irrelevant whether the transgression will be performed in public or private.
In Public

With regards to all other commandments, we are required to transgress rather than die. If, however, it is the intention of the person forcing the transgression to compel the person to sin, and the sin will be done is in the presence of a minyan (ten Jews), then one is obligated to be martyred for rather than transgress any sin.

Thus, for example, in the case of Nazi concentration camps, there was no problem with Jews working on the Shabbat – although it was done in public – because the Nazis weren't out to get the Jews to sin, they simply wanted them to work so they could benefit from their labor.

I would like to conclude with the words of Maimonides:7

    "A person who encounters a situation concerning which it is stated 'be killed rather than transgress,' and he allowed himself to be killed and did no transgress—this individual has sanctified G‑d's Name. If this was in the presence of ten Jews, then he has sanctified G‑d's Name in public, like Hananiah, Mishael, and Azariah, and like Rabbi Akiba and his colleagues. These are the ones referred to [in the Talmud] as 'executed by the regime'—there is no higher level than their level. Concerning them it is stated,8 'For it is for Your sake that we are killed all day, that we are considered as sheep for the slaughter.' And concerning these individuals it is said,9 "Gather to Me My devoted ones, who made a covenant with Me over a sacrifice."

I pray that these words remain purely academic. Despite the incredible greatness of the mitzvah of sanctifying G‑d's Name, we've "overused" this mitzvah through the course of countless crusades, inquisitions, pogroms, and attempted Final Solutions (Click here to read one story of communal martyrdom). Now it is time for us to sanctify G‑d's holy Name by the way we live, rather than by the way we die.

4. Sanhedrin 74b.

Some Daf Yomis:

http://ohr.edu/yhiy/article.php/116
http://www.dafyomi.co.il/sanhedrin/reviewa/sn-ra-074.htm
« Last Edit: December 08, 2008, 11:40:31 PM by muman613 »
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14