Torah and Jewish Idea > Torah and Jewish Idea
Hakamim that rejected Kabbalah
Tzvi Ben Roshel1:
--- Quote from: muman613 on January 22, 2009, 11:12:48 PM ---q_q_,
Are you thinking about Rambams 13th principle of faith which establishes Techias HaMasim {Ressurection of the Dead} as an undeniable tenet of Jewish belief?
http://www.aish.com/spirituality/philosophy/Maimonides_13th_PrincipleThe_Resurrection_of_the_Dead.asp
http://www.ou.org/about/judaism/rabbis/rambam.htm
http://ohr.edu/yhiy/article.php/2023
http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/281644/jewish/The-Resurrection-of-the-Dead.htm
http://www.chabad.org/multimedia/media_cdo/aid/623710/jewish/Resurrection-of-the-Dead.htm
--- End quote ---
I dont think this has anything to do with it. In the talmud their were Rabbis who could have ressurected the dead (infact the Rabbis mentioned by name were able to resurrect the dead).
q_q_:
--- Quote from: Tzvi Ben Roshel on January 22, 2009, 11:21:12 PM ---
--- Quote from: muman613 on January 22, 2009, 11:12:48 PM ---q_q_,
Are you thinking about Rambams 13th principle of faith which establishes Techias HaMasim {Ressurection of the Dead} as an undeniable tenet of Jewish belief?<snip>
--- End quote ---
I dont think this has anything to do with it. In the talmud their were Rabbis who could have ressurected the dead (infact the Rabbis mentioned by name were able to resurrect the dead).
--- End quote ---
I wouldn't call somebody that accepts miracles "a kabbalist" for that. So indeed it has nothing to do with it.
Nobody here is such a rationalist.
q_q_:
By the way Tzvi, do you have references for where in the talmud rabbis resurrected the dead?
speaking to an unreliable maimonidean, I gave him a bunch of examples.. it was a mishna talking about how magic is forbidden, and gave examples of magic rabbis had witnessed. He rationalized it! saying it wasn't magic.. He read in that
it meant illusions. In one case, illusions performed as if they are magic, in another case, illusion performed as illusions.
muman613:
q_q_,
I have found only one mention of a child being brought back to life by the prophet Eliyahu.
http://vbm-torah.org/archive/eliyahu/12eliyahu.htm
--- Quote ---Shiur #12: The Drought - part 6d:
Eliyahu revives the widow of Tzarfat's son (17:17-24) (continued)
By Rav Elchanan Samet
8. "HE STRETCHED OUT OVER THE CHILD THREE TIMES"
Chronologically, how are we to regard this action by Eliyahu,? Is it the conclusion of his first cry to G-d, which was not answered, or is it the introduction to his second cry, which was answered? In other words: at which point did Eliyahu sense that G-d was not responding to his efforts to revive the child and that he must change his direction? Was it before he stretched out over the boy or afterwards? Does Eliyahu sense the lack of response before his stretching out - in which case we must regard the stretching out itself, and not only the second prayer, as the conclusion he draws from the failure of his first prayer? Or does he sense it only afterwards - in which case his stretching out is an act that is superfluous, that does nothing to make his first prayer effective, and is entirely unnecessary for his second prayer?
In what way is the second prayer different from the first? We shall provide a detailed answer to this question in the following section. Here we shall highlight only one point, which will help us clarify our view of Eliyahu's action. At the center of Eliyahu's consciousness in his first prayer are two elements: the widow and himself. "Have You done evil also TO THE WIDOW with whom I LODGE..." The implied request in this prayer - that the dead boy be revived - will bring benefit to both parties and repair the ruptured relationship between them. (We conclude this based on all the commentaries quoted in the previous shiur: while some perceive the crux of his prayer as being aimed at repairing the injustice caused to the widow, others perceive his own interests as the more important element.) In the second prayer, in contrast, there is no consideration of anything other than "this boy" himself. There is no benefit for the mother or for Eliyahu himself, nor the relationship between them; only "restore, I pray, the soul of THIS BOY within him" - because it would be better for the child to be alive than dead.
...
--- End quote ---
http://www.ou.org/torah/frankel/haftarot/vayera61.htm
--- Quote ---
Section 2
It happened one day that Elisha happened to pass through Shunam in Eretz Yisrael. A prominent woman, noticed him and invited him into her house to eat with herself and her husband. Elisha listened to the woman and ate with this couple that time, and every time he passed that way.
One day, the woman said to her husband, "I know that this guest of ours is a holy man. Let's make a special room for him, furnished with a bed, a table, a chair and a lamp."
In appreciation, Elisha asked her if there were anything he could do for her. She declined the offer, saying, "I dwell among my People." She meant that she had no need or desire for special treatment.
Gechazi, the servant of Elisha, had noticed that the couple was childless, and it was unlikely that the couple would be able to have children in the future, because the husband was elderly. Elisha informed the woman, now realizing what her unexpressed desire was, that in a year, she would have a son; a promise that she initially refused to believe.
But the following year, a son was born. As a young child, with his father in the fields, the son suddenly developed a terrible headache. He was carried to his mother, but expired on her knees. The woman put the lifeless body of the boy on the bed of the Prophet, and immediately set out on a journey to Elisha's residence, on Mt. Carmel.
When the Prophet saw her in the distance, he said to Gechazi to run to her and inquire what it was the woman wanted, but she would not disclose the purpose of her visit to Gechazi. When she entered the house of the prophet, she grasped his legs and would not let go. She said, "Did I ask you for a son? Didn't I say, 'Don't lie to me?' "
Realizing what had happened, Elisha sent Gechazi before him with his staff, instructing him to use it to revive the boy. Gechazi took the staff, but was unable to revive the child.
Elisha entered the house, went to his room, where he found the boy. He lay on top of him, mouth-to-mouth, eye-to-eye, hand-to-hand, and, as it were, re-introduced the boy's soul into him, using himself as a conduit. The boy sneezed seven times, and opened his eyes. The mother opened the door, bowed at Elisha's feet, and took her son.
--- End quote ---
Kahane-Was-Right BT:
--- Quote from: muman613 on January 22, 2009, 11:12:48 PM ---q_q_,
Are you thinking about Rambams 13th principle of faith which establishes Techias HaMasim {Ressurection of the Dead} as an undeniable tenet of Jewish belief?
--- End quote ---
What's that got to do with kabbalah? It's not some mystical warlord with a fancy hat that will do that, but Hashem Himself will resurrect the dead. Yes, this is a principle of our faith.
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