Hakamim that rejected Kabbalah

[GoIsraelGo!]

I have heard of several Rabbis who were secretly Kabbalists but when they had to give lectures to secular and semi observant Jews they would tell them to “stay far away from Kabbalah. It is nothing but superstitious folly and Kabbalists are worse than christians instead of giving us 3 gods they give us 10”. The reason for this was not only because people without adequate Toranic knowledge tend to misunderstand Kabbalah but also to stop them getting into Practical Kabbalah.

Practical Kabbalah tells one how to command the Jin (what european fools would call “angels” and “demons”). Shlomo HaMelek was famous for this. The big danger is that Jin don’t like to be bossed around by humans and unless the Practical Kabbalist is a Tzadiq gadol the Jin will eventually kill them.

The Morrocan Yehudim and Temani were big into Practical Kabbalah. Is it possible that Rabbi Yihyah Gafekh and other Hakamim that rejected Kabbalah knew that Kabbalah was real but publicly rejected it to try to put an end to the widespread use of Practical Kabbalah? Afterall such Hakamim were going against the grain and I am sure they did not think they were bigger than the Ramban.

My Grandfather lived and died in Mougador Morocco. He was a Orthodox Rabbi and he was an expert on kabbalah. My Mom has told me that her father ( Rabbi Yamin Bougamin )
told her when she was little that the kabbalah was magic...but that it was also very dangerous! My Mom never studied it nor would I. We listen to the wise!
An example of practical kabbalah could be compared to putting a baby seal in a tank with a shark. The situation could be dangerous / or deadly.
The kabbalah is for the experts who have mastered Torah.

                                                                                               Shalom - Dox

[q_q_]

I have heard of several Rabbis who were secretly Kabbalists but when they had to give lectures to secular and semi observant Jews they would tell them to “stay far away from Kabbalah. It is nothing but superstitious folly and Kabbalists are worse than christians instead of giving us 3 gods they give us 10”. The reason for this was not only because people without adequate Toranic knowledge tend to misunderstand Kabbalah but also to stop them getting into Practical Kabbalah.

Practical Kabbalah tells one how to command the Jin (what european fools would call “angels” and “demons”). Shlomo HaMelek was famous for this. The big danger is that Jin don’t like to be bossed around by humans and unless the Practical Kabbalist is a Tzadiq gadol the Jin will eventually kill them.

The Morrocan Yehudim and Temani were big into Practical Kabbalah. Is it possible that Rabbi Yihyah Gafekh and other Hakamim that rejected Kabbalah knew that Kabbalah was real but publicly rejected it to try to put an end to the widespread use of Practical Kabbalah? Afterall such Hakamim were going against the grain and I am sure they did not think they were bigger than the Ramban.

My Grandfather lived and died in Mougador Morocco. He was a Orthodox Rabbi and he was an expert on kabbalah. My Mom has told me that her father ( Rabbi Yamin Bougamin )
told her when she was little that the kabbalah was magic...but that it was also very dangerous! My Mom never studied it nor would I. We listen to the wise!
An example of practical kabbalah could be compared to putting a baby seal in a tank with a shark. The situation could be dangerous / or deadly.
The kabbalah is for the experts who have mastered Torah.

                                                                                               Shalom - Dox

It would be dangerous if it worked then all that may well be correct. You assume that it does work.
 
Maybe your mother's father never did it either. (he just studied theory).

If it was so powerful , these kabbalists would have used it effectively on our enemies, and not been persecuted so much for 2000 years.

I guarantee that they tried.

You have succeeded in lowering the level of intelligent discussion though.  With stories about how dangerous it is..

Doing that happens to be a classic set up for a con.. like the egyptian strong man clip on memri.

[GoIsraelGo!]

I have heard of several Rabbis who were secretly Kabbalists but when they had to give lectures to secular and semi observant Jews they would tell them to “stay far away from Kabbalah. It is nothing but superstitious folly and Kabbalists are worse than christians instead of giving us 3 gods they give us 10”. The reason for this was not only because people without adequate Toranic knowledge tend to misunderstand Kabbalah but also to stop them getting into Practical Kabbalah.

Practical Kabbalah tells one how to command the Jin (what european fools would call “angels” and “demons”). Shlomo HaMelek was famous for this. The big danger is that Jin don’t like to be bossed around by humans and unless the Practical Kabbalist is a Tzadiq gadol the Jin will eventually kill them.

The Morrocan Yehudim and Temani were big into Practical Kabbalah. Is it possible that Rabbi Yihyah Gafekh and other Hakamim that rejected Kabbalah knew that Kabbalah was real but publicly rejected it to try to put an end to the widespread use of Practical Kabbalah? Afterall such Hakamim were going against the grain and I am sure they did not think they were bigger than the Ramban.

My Grandfather lived and died in Mougador Morocco. He was a Orthodox Rabbi and he was an expert on kabbalah. My Mom has told me that her father ( Rabbi Yamin Bougamin )
told her when she was little that the kabbalah was magic...but that it was also very dangerous! My Mom never studied it nor would I. We listen to the wise!
An example of practical kabbalah could be compared to putting a baby seal in a tank with a shark. The situation could be dangerous / or deadly.
The kabbalah is for the experts who have mastered Torah.

                                                                                               Shalom - Dox

It would be dangerous if it worked then all that may well be correct. You assume that it does work.
 
Maybe your mother's father never did it either. (he just studied theory).

If it was so powerful , these kabbalists would have used it effectively on our enemies, and not been persecuted so much for 2000 years.

I guarantee that they tried.

You have succeeded in lowering the level of intelligent discussion though.  With stories about how dangerous it is..

Doing that happens to be a classic set up for a con.. like the egyptian strong man clip on memri.

Obviously you cannot make a reply without an insult. Typical Liberal !

[q_q_]

<snip>
Obviously you cannot make a reply without an insult. Typical Liberal !

Look who takes offence!  You Bolshevik!

[muman613]

I have heard of several Rabbis who were secretly Kabbalists but when they had to give lectures to secular and semi observant Jews they would tell them to “stay far away from Kabbalah. It is nothing but superstitious folly and Kabbalists are worse than christians instead of giving us 3 gods they give us 10”. The reason for this was not only because people without adequate Toranic knowledge tend to misunderstand Kabbalah but also to stop them getting into Practical Kabbalah.

Practical Kabbalah tells one how to command the Jin (what european fools would call “angels” and “demons”). Shlomo HaMelek was famous for this. The big danger is that Jin don’t like to be bossed around by humans and unless the Practical Kabbalist is a Tzadiq gadol the Jin will eventually kill them.

The Morrocan Yehudim and Temani were big into Practical Kabbalah. Is it possible that Rabbi Yihyah Gafekh and other Hakamim that rejected Kabbalah knew that Kabbalah was real but publicly rejected it to try to put an end to the widespread use of Practical Kabbalah? Afterall such Hakamim were going against the grain and I am sure they did not think they were bigger than the Ramban.

My Grandfather lived and died in Mougador Morocco. He was a Orthodox Rabbi and he was an expert on kabbalah. My Mom has told me that her father ( Rabbi Yamin Bougamin )
told her when she was little that the kabbalah was magic...but that it was also very dangerous! My Mom never studied it nor would I. We listen to the wise!
An example of practical kabbalah could be compared to putting a baby seal in a tank with a shark. The situation could be dangerous / or deadly.
The kabbalah is for the experts who have mastered Torah.

                                                                                               Shalom - Dox

It would be dangerous if it worked then all that may well be correct. You assume that it does work.
 
Maybe your mother's father never did it either. (he just studied theory).

If it was so powerful , these kabbalists would have used it effectively on our enemies, and not been persecuted so much for 2000 years.

I guarantee that they tried.

You have succeeded in lowering the level of intelligent discussion though.  With stories about how dangerous it is..

Doing that happens to be a classic set up for a con.. like the egyptian strong man clip on memri.

Obviously you cannot make a reply without an insult. Typical Liberal !

Republicandox,

Take no heed of q_q_, he is always insulting and degrading to almost everyone. I think it is a compliment when he insults people. Some people have developmental problems and don't know how to relate to other people. I believe q_q_ is one of those loner types who 'didn't get along with others' when he was growing up.

Just look at his history of postings...

PS: Make his will your will, so that Hashem may make your will his will.

PPS: Kabbalah is NOT magic... No more than Chemistry is magic. It is our belief that Kabbalah is the mechanism by which the universe was created. If we could harness it we could understand all the secrets of creation. Only very humble tzaddicks even have a chance of using it to alter reality.

BTW, in the shuir on the Secrets of Lashon HaKodesh the Rabbi mentioned a fact I had heard before. The words "Abbra Cadabra" are based on Hebrew. In Hebew the words "Avera CaDabera" roughly translates to "I do what I speak".


For a very good overview of what Kabbalah is and isn't check out Rabbi Arial BarTzaddoks website @
http://www.koshertorah.com/

[q_q_]

<snip>
PPS: Kabbalah is NOT magic... No more than Chemistry is magic. It is our belief that Kabbalah is the mechanism by which the universe was created. If we could harness it we could understand all the secrets of creation. Only very humble tzaddicks even have a chance of using it to alter reality.

When gentiles get it wrong I let them because they shouldn't be using the term in the first place and sounding jewish..

But you should know better. The plural of Tzaddik is Tzaddikim.  Not saddicks or Tsaddicks or whatever you think.

You don't just add an 's' to a hebrew word to make a plural. Sometimes people do it  if a word is difficult.. (like the plural for tallus/tallit may not be obvious to people). But everybody gets Tzaddikim right!

BTW, in the shuir on the Secrets of Lashon HaKodesh the Rabbi mentioned a fact I had heard before. The words "Abbra Cadabra" are based on Hebrew. In Hebew the words "Avera CaDabera" roughly translates to "I do what I speak".

Well if you have heard the fact before you should know it's based on the aramaic. I doubt that you heard it wrong twice.


It is a well known and not particularly significant fact.. I guess you found it a great "secret".

<important snip>

[muman613]

<snip>
PPS: Kabbalah is NOT magic... No more than Chemistry is magic. It is our belief that Kabbalah is the mechanism by which the universe was created. If we could harness it we could understand all the secrets of creation. Only very humble tzaddicks even have a chance of using it to alter reality.

When gentiles get it wrong I let them because they shouldn't be using the term in the first place and sounding jewish..

But you should know better. The plural of Tzaddik is Tzaddikim.  Not saddicks or Tsaddicks or whatever you think.

You don't just add an 's' to a hebrew word to make a plural. Sometimes people do it  if a word is difficult.. (like the plural for tallus/tallit may not be obvious to people). But everybody gets Tzaddikim right!

BTW, in the shuir on the Secrets of Lashon HaKodesh the Rabbi mentioned a fact I had heard before. The words "Abbra Cadabra" are based on Hebrew. In Hebew the words "Avera CaDabera" roughly translates to "I do what I speak".

Well if you have heard the fact before you should know it's based on the aramaic. I doubt that you heard it wrong twice.


It is a well known and not particularly significant fact.. I guess you found it a great "secret".

<important snip>

q_q_,

You are one to correct peoples spelling? I realize that it is misspelled now and I apologize for the error. But that doesnt detract from what I was saying.

It is no big secret the fact that the origin of Abra Cadabra is from the hebrew.

According to the Chabad site, and according to the Rabbi I listened to last night, the orgin is from the hebrew.



Listen to the Rabbi @ 1:10:20 when he explains how Abra Cadabra comes from the hebrew letters.

[muman613]

According to this wiki site Aramaic was a language of exile. The Jews adopted Aramaic during the Babylonian exile.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hebrew_language#Aramaic

Aramaic

    Main article: Judeo-Aramaic language

Aramaic is a North-West Semitic language, like Canaanite. Its name derives either from "Aram Naharayim" in Upper Mesopotamia or from "Aram", an ancient name for Syria. Various dialects of Aramaic coevolved with Hebrew throughout much of its history, as major languages in the region. The words in Greek and Hebrew at the time corresponding to the word "Hebrew" (Εβραις, Εβραιστι, עברית יהודית) are distinguished from Aramaic συριστι συριακη.[22]

The Persian Empire that captured Babylonia a few decades later adopted Imperial Aramaic as the official international language of the Persian Empire. The Israelite population, who had been exiled to Babylon from Jerusalem and its surrounding region of Judah, were allowed to return to Jerusalem to establish a Persian province, usually called Judea. Thus under occupation and enslavement, Aramaic became the administrative language for Judea when dealing with the rest of the Persian Empire.

The Aramaic script also evolved from the Paleo-Semitic script, but they diverged significantly. By the 1st century C.E., the Aramaic script developed into the distinctive Hebrew square script (also known as Assyrian Script, Ktav Ashuri), extant in the Dead Sea Scrolls and similar to the script still in use today.

...

Displacement

By the early half of the 20th century, most scholars followed Geiger and Dalman in thinking that Aramaic became a spoken language in the land of Israel by the start of Israel's Hellenistic Period in the 4th century B.C.E., and that as a corollary Hebrew ceased to function as a spoken language around the same time. Segal, Klausner, and Ben Yehuda are notable exceptions to this view. During the latter half of the 20th century, accumulating archaeological evidence and especially linguistic analysis of the Dead Sea Scrolls has disproven that view. The Dead Sea Scrolls, uncovered in 1946-1948 near Qumran revealed ancient Jewish texts overwhelmingly in Hebrew, not Aramaic. The Qumran scrolls indicate that Hebrew texts were readily understandable to the average Israelite, and that the language had evolved since Biblical times as spoken languages do. Recent scholarship recognizes that reports of Jews speaking in Aramaic indicates a multi-lingual society, not necessarily the primary language spoken. Alongside Aramaic, Hebrew co-existed within Israel as a spoken language.

[Shlomo]

q_q_,

This is no way for an Orthodox Jew to conduct himself. While it does not excuse the others' behavior, the other members are starting to respond negatively and it's time this stops. Unity is important for our movement if we are to succeed.

As Jews, we are commanded to show kindness, patience, and to be slow to wrath or angry speech. We are also commanded by Torah to speak against lashon hora.

This is a warning. I am very close to banning you. It's a shame because I believe you are a good Jew but I cannot allow this type of conduct on the forum. By allowing you to continue, it sets a precedence and makes others feel afraid to share their opinions.

Please heed my warning and stop criticizing and insulting the other members. Also, you are not one to correct the others' spelling or grammar. This has gone on long enough.

If this thread does not continue on topic, I will be forced to lock it... which is a shame because it contains good material.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Did anyone see how the Rambam went into detail in that Chapter from Hilchos Yesodei Hatorah about how G-d created the physical and spiritual worlds. That IS kabbalah (how G-d created the world). The Rambam is right there teaching you Kabbalah and some here are still claiming he rejects kabbalah?! This is madness.

I think these people just don't know what kabbalah is. They think kabbalah=something illogical and mystical. When it fact it is quite logical, and only appears mystical to those that don't understand what it is saying.

There are many Rabbis whom I know personally who said point blank, "The Rambam did not have the kabbalah."    I have yet to meet a single rabbi who tried to claim that Rambam was a kabbalist in the conventional sense of the term (as we use it today - Yes, mystical).    The only disagreement from the various rabbis I talked to was over whether "if the Rambam had had the kabbalah, would he have written what he wrote, or would he have "changed his views"  "    Some (whose opinions I find ridiculous) have said that if Rambam was shown the kabbalah, his views would have been way different.    Other rabbis have said it is mistaken to suggest such a thing, and that had Rambam seen kabbalah or not seen it, his views would have been what they were and his writings would be what they are today.

[GoIsraelGo!]

I have heard of several Rabbis who were secretly Kabbalists but when they had to give lectures to secular and semi observant Jews they would tell them to “stay far away from Kabbalah. It is nothing but superstitious folly and Kabbalists are worse than christians instead of giving us 3 gods they give us 10”. The reason for this was not only because people without adequate Toranic knowledge tend to misunderstand Kabbalah but also to stop them getting into Practical Kabbalah.

Practical Kabbalah tells one how to command the Jin (what european fools would call “angels” and “demons”). Shlomo HaMelek was famous for this. The big danger is that Jin don’t like to be bossed around by humans and unless the Practical Kabbalist is a Tzadiq gadol the Jin will eventually kill them.

The Morrocan Yehudim and Temani were big into Practical Kabbalah. Is it possible that Rabbi Yihyah Gafekh and other Hakamim that rejected Kabbalah knew that Kabbalah was real but publicly rejected it to try to put an end to the widespread use of Practical Kabbalah? Afterall such Hakamim were going against the grain and I am sure they did not think they were bigger than the Ramban.

My Grandfather lived and died in Mougador Morocco. He was a Orthodox Rabbi and he was an expert on kabbalah. My Mom has told me that her father ( Rabbi Yamin Bougamin )
told her when she was little that the kabbalah was magic...but that it was also very dangerous! My Mom never studied it nor would I. We listen to the wise!
An example of practical kabbalah could be compared to putting a baby seal in a tank with a shark. The situation could be dangerous / or deadly.
The kabbalah is for the experts who have mastered Torah.

                                                                                               Shalom - Dox

It would be dangerous if it worked then all that may well be correct. You assume that it does work.
 
Maybe your mother's father never did it either. (he just studied theory).

If it was so powerful , these kabbalists would have used it effectively on our enemies, and not been persecuted so much for 2000 years.

I guarantee that they tried.

You have succeeded in lowering the level of intelligent discussion though.  With stories about how dangerous it is..

Doing that happens to be a classic set up for a con.. like the egyptian strong man clip on memri.

Obviously you cannot make a reply without an insult. Typical Liberal !

Republicandox,

Take no heed of q_q_, he is always insulting and degrading to almost everyone. I think it is a compliment when he insults people. Some people have developmental problems and don't know how to relate to other people. I believe q_q_ is one of those loner types who 'didn't get along with others' when he was growing up.

Just look at his history of postings...

PS: Make his will your will, so that Hashem may make your will his will.

PPS: Kabbalah is NOT magic... No more than Chemistry is magic. It is our belief that Kabbalah is the mechanism by which the universe was created. If we could harness it we could understand all the secrets of creation. Only very humble tzaddicks even have a chance of using it to alter reality.

BTW, in the shuir on the Secrets of Lashon HaKodesh the Rabbi mentioned a fact I had heard before. The words "Abbra Cadabra" are based on Hebrew. In Hebew the words "Avera CaDabera" roughly translates to "I do what I speak".


For a very good overview of what Kabbalah is and isn't check out Rabbi Arial BarTzaddoks website @
http://www.koshertorah.com/

Hi Muman, thank you for your kindness. I will not worry about this. I know that sometimes on forums people ( pick ) on other people, so I am not too shocked.
I was simply just sharing my story about my Grandfather, and how he was a Rabbi and studied Kabbalah. I am very proud of my Grandfather, he died before I was born
so all I have of my Grandfather are stories about him from my Mom and her sisters. I suspect that qq may have seen my posts about Moslems or Liberals, while I speak my opinion so freely and some may not agree with me, I do not attack any one person. I only respond accordingly if I am verbally attacked first.
If I have ever offended anyone on the forum I am sorry. Like I said, I do not hide my feelings about Moslems and the things Liberals do, but at the same time I don't want to fight with anyone.
Thank you again Muman !                                                                    Shalom - Dox

[GoIsraelGo!]

q_q_,

This is no way for an Orthodox Jew to conduct himself. While it does not excuse the others' behavior, the other members are starting to respond negatively and it's time this stops. Unity is important for our movement if we are to succeed.

As Jews, we are commanded to show kindness, patience, and to be slow to wrath or angry speech. We are also commanded by Torah to speak against lashon hora.

This is a warning. I am very close to banning you. It's a shame because I believe you are a good Jew but I cannot allow this type of conduct on the forum. By allowing you to continue, it sets a precedence and makes others feel afraid to share their opinions.

Please heed my warning and stop criticizing and insulting the other members. Also, you are not one to correct the others' spelling or grammar. This has gone on long enough.

If this thread does not continue on topic, I will be forced to lock it... which is a shame because it contains good material.

Thank you Shlomo, I do appreciate you trying to help. I was just talking about my Grandfather and that seemed to annoy QQ. I did call him/her a Liberal but that was after he/she said I lowered the level on intelligent discussion. I am sure you saw the post and reply.
I never meant to do anything other than to talk about my Grandfather!

                                                                                     Thank you again.    Shalom - Dox 

[q_q_]

well republicandox.. I see you are female, I didn't see that before..

i'm normally more tolerant with females because most are expected to be somewhat more emotional and less logical.. in my books.

if your name was Natalie or Rachel or something female, you'd have gotten away with your "argument" a little more easily! I don't think you really noticed what you made it look like you were arguing.  There is nothing annoying that I see about your grandfather.

[Sefardic Panther]

G-d bless you republicandox. I highly revere all Orthodox Rabbis and their offspring. Moroccan Yehudi women are very very intelligent like Dihya Al-Kahina who was famous for her use of practical Kabbalah. You should never be intimidated by anyone!!!

Tread carefully q_q_! “bolshevik” is a very bad name to call any religious Jew especially the grand daughter of a Rabbi!

Regardless of what anyone says practical Kabbalah oviously works! If it did not there would not be such a strong prohibition against practicing it!!!

You may argue that “if it worked why did’nt the Jews use it to destroy their oppressors?” Perhaps it was Kabbalah Masit which enabled the Jews to survive for so long among people who hated them so much. Anyway if Hashem wanted to punish us the biggist Kabbalist in the world would not have been able to save us!

This name calling between Litaim and Hasidim should stop right now before we become like the sunni and shia!!! I do not look down on Litaim for rejecting mysticism, some of the best Yehudim in the Holy Land are Litaim. We both have our own way of fallowing Torah so what? We should agree to disagree!!!

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

This name calling between Litaim and Hasidim should stop right now before we become like the sunni and shia!!! I do not look down on Litaim for rejecting mysticism, some of the best Yehudim in the Holy Land are Litaim. We both have our own way of fallowing Torah so what? We should agree to disagree!!!

What are "Litaim"  ?    What are you talking about?   

I haven't engaged in any namecalling.   It appears you refuse to face the arguments against your wild theories that you are posting here.   

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

This name calling between Litaim and Hasidim should stop right now before we become like the sunni and shia!!! I do not look down on Litaim for rejecting mysticism, some of the best Yehudim in the Holy Land are Litaim. We both have our own way of fallowing Torah so what? We should agree to disagree!!!

What are "Litaim"  ?    What are you talking about?   

I haven't engaged in any namecalling.   It appears you refuse to face the arguments against your wild theories that you are posting here.   

I think he means lithuanians (the Haredi, non-Hassidim). The truth is that he got this wrong because many (almost all) Lithuanian Haredim accept Kabbalah.
  (Anyway i am out of this discussion beause proof for me isn't- my community accepted or rejected this or that, it's more on solid proof, soo I am not jumping to any conclusions- recently I saw the ant- Kabbalah/Zohar side, and I asked for the pro and proof- soo I emailed Rav Mizrachi Shlita and his thing was in Hebrew, and he also sent it to Judea-  Soo once again, time and evidence will tell).

[GoIsraelGo!]

G-d bless you republicandox. I highly revere all Orthodox Rabbis and their offspring. Moroccan Yehudi women are very very intelligent like Dihya Al-Kahina who was famous for her use of practical Kabbalah. You should never be intimidated by anyone!!!

Tread carefully q_q_! “bolshevik” is a very bad name to call any religious Jew especially the grand daughter of a Rabbi!

Regardless of what anyone says practical Kabbalah oviously works! If it did not there would not be such a strong prohibition against practicing it!!!

You may argue that “if it worked why did’nt the Jews use it to destroy their oppressors?” Perhaps it was Kabbalah Masit which enabled the Jews to survive for so long among people who hated them so much. Anyway if Hashem wanted to punish us the biggist Kabbalist in the world would not have been able to save us!

This name calling between Litaim and Hasidim should stop right now before we become like the sunni and shia!!! I do not look down on Litaim for rejecting mysticism, some of the best Yehudim in the Holy Land are Litaim. We both have our own way of fallowing Torah so what? We should agree to disagree!!!

Thank you. I am Sephardic ( spanish ) and English from my Fathers side. My Mom and the rest of her siblings came to America in the mid 1950's, from Morocco.
My fathers family has been here for over 200 years. I have many second cousins living in Israel and France.
soon I will post a picture of my Grandfather, Rabbi Yamin Bouganim as soon as my husband uploads the picture for me on my computer.

                                                                                              Shalom - Dox   
P.S. G-d bless you too

[q_q_]

<snip>
Tread carefully q_q_! “bolshevik” is a very bad name to call any religious Jew especially the grand daughter of a Rabbi!
<snip>

she called me a liberal, which was obviously a joke, and I didn't take offence to it.  And I replied in the same manner, calling her a bolshevik, also a joke since there is no reason to say so. Obviously one could take offence to either of them.. but jews are meant to be intelligent. And most jews don't take offence as easily as that. Only the anti-semites claim we do - after they deny the holocaust or other ones compare jews to nazis!

Infact, the whole thing of calling people bolshevik here is ridiculous. nobody does it in real life anyway.  People would give you a blank stare or repeat "bolshevik?!!!!!!".  It's not like calling somebody a nazi.  Anyhow, the context in which I said bolshevik, made it obvious to anybody with intelligence, that it was a joke. My opinion of people is not so low, that I *assume* they wouldn't see that.

[q_q_]

This name calling between Litaim and Hasidim should stop right now before we become like the sunni and shia!!! I do not look down on Litaim for rejecting mysticism, some of the best Yehudim in the Holy Land are Litaim. We both have our own way of fallowing Torah so what? We should agree to disagree!!!

What are "Litaim"  ?    What are you talking about?   

I haven't engaged in any namecalling.   It appears you refuse to face the arguments against your wild theories that you are posting here.   

I think he means lithuanians (the Haredi, non-Hassidim). The truth is that he got this wrong because many (almost all) Lithuanian Haredim accept Kabbalah.
  (Anyway i am out of this discussion beause proof for me isn't- my community accepted or rejected this or that, it's more on solid proof, soo I am not jumping to any conclusions- recently I saw the ant- Kabbalah/Zohar side, and I asked for the pro and proof- soo I emailed Rav Mizrachi Shlita and his thing was in Hebrew, and he also sent it to Judea-  Soo once again, time and evidence will tell).

there is some evidence about the RAMBAM on the pro side.. i haven't posted it here yet.  (so far on this forum the side saying he was a kabbalist have provided none)

I don't think it's possible to have much of an intelligent discussion here.  No doubt that's why even you are out of the discussion.

[muman613]

q_q_,

Are you thinking about Rambams 13th principle of faith which establishes Techias HaMasim {Ressurection of the Dead} as an undeniable tenet of Jewish belief?

http://www.aish.com/spirituality/philosophy/Maimonides_13th_PrincipleThe_Resurrection_of_the_Dead.asp

http://www.ou.org/about/judaism/rabbis/rambam.htm

http://ohr.edu/yhiy/article.php/2023

http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/281644/jewish/The-Resurrection-of-the-Dead.htm

http://www.chabad.org/multimedia/media_cdo/aid/623710/jewish/Resurrection-of-the-Dead.htm

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

q_q_,

Are you thinking about Rambams 13th principle of faith which establishes Techias HaMasim {Ressurection of the Dead} as an undeniable tenet of Jewish belief?

http://www.aish.com/spirituality/philosophy/Maimonides_13th_PrincipleThe_Resurrection_of_the_Dead.asp

http://www.ou.org/about/judaism/rabbis/rambam.htm

http://ohr.edu/yhiy/article.php/2023

http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/281644/jewish/The-Resurrection-of-the-Dead.htm

http://www.chabad.org/multimedia/media_cdo/aid/623710/jewish/Resurrection-of-the-Dead.htm

  I dont think this has anything to do with it. In the talmud their were Rabbis who could have ressurected the dead (infact the Rabbis mentioned by name were able to resurrect the dead).

[q_q_]

q_q_,

Are you thinking about Rambams 13th principle of faith which establishes Techias HaMasim {Ressurection of the Dead} as an undeniable tenet of Jewish belief?<snip>

  I dont think this has anything to do with it. In the talmud their were Rabbis who could have ressurected the dead (infact the Rabbis mentioned by name were able to resurrect the dead).

I wouldn't call somebody that accepts miracles "a kabbalist" for that. So indeed it has nothing to do with it. 

Nobody here is such a rationalist.

[q_q_]

By the way Tzvi, do you have references for where in the talmud rabbis resurrected the dead?

speaking to an unreliable maimonidean, I gave him a bunch of examples.. it was a mishna talking about how magic is forbidden, and gave examples of magic rabbis had witnessed.  He rationalized it! saying it wasn't magic.. He read in that
it meant illusions. In one case, illusions performed as if they are magic, in another case, illusion performed as illusions.

[muman613]

q_q_,

I have found only one mention of a child being brought back to life by the prophet Eliyahu.

http://vbm-torah.org/archive/eliyahu/12eliyahu.htm

Shiur #12: The Drought - part 6d:

Eliyahu revives the widow of Tzarfat's son (17:17-24) (continued)

By Rav Elchanan Samet

8. "HE STRETCHED OUT OVER THE CHILD THREE TIMES"

Chronologically, how are we to regard this action by Eliyahu,? Is it the conclusion of his first cry to G-d, which was not answered, or is it the introduction to his second cry, which was answered? In other words: at which point did Eliyahu sense that G-d was not responding to his efforts to revive the child and that he must change his direction? Was it before he stretched out over the boy or afterwards? Does Eliyahu sense the lack of response before his stretching out - in which case we must regard the stretching out itself, and not only the second prayer, as the conclusion he draws from the failure of his first prayer? Or does he sense it only afterwards - in which case his stretching out is an act that is superfluous, that does nothing to make his first prayer effective, and is entirely unnecessary for his second prayer?

In what way is the second prayer different from the first? We shall provide a detailed answer to this question in the following section. Here we shall highlight only one point, which will help us clarify our view of Eliyahu's action. At the center of Eliyahu's consciousness in his first prayer are two elements: the widow and himself. "Have You done evil also TO THE WIDOW with whom I LODGE..." The implied request in this prayer - that the dead boy be revived - will bring benefit to both parties and repair the ruptured relationship between them. (We conclude this based on all the commentaries quoted in the previous shiur: while some perceive the crux of his prayer as being aimed at repairing the injustice caused to the widow, others perceive his own interests as the more important element.) In the second prayer, in contrast, there is no consideration of anything other than "this boy" himself. There is no benefit for the mother or for Eliyahu himself, nor the relationship between them; only "restore, I pray, the soul of THIS BOY within him" - because it would be better for the child to be alive than dead.
...

http://www.ou.org/torah/frankel/haftarot/vayera61.htm

Section 2

It happened one day that Elisha happened to pass through Shunam in Eretz Yisrael.  A prominent woman, noticed him and invited him into her house to eat with herself and her husband.  Elisha listened to the woman and ate with this couple that time, and every time he passed that way.

One day, the woman said to her husband, "I know that this guest of ours is a holy man.  Let's make a special room for him, furnished with a bed, a table, a chair and a lamp."

In appreciation, Elisha asked her if there were anything he could do for her.  She declined the offer, saying, "I dwell among my People."  She meant that she had no need or desire for special treatment.

Gechazi, the servant of Elisha, had noticed that the couple was childless, and it was unlikely that the couple would be able to have children in the future, because the husband was elderly.  Elisha informed the woman, now realizing what her unexpressed desire was, that in a year, she would have a son; a promise that she initially refused to believe.

But the following year, a son was born.  As a young child, with his father in the fields, the son suddenly developed a terrible headache.  He was carried to his mother, but expired on her knees.  The woman put the lifeless body of the boy on the bed of the Prophet, and immediately set out on a journey to Elisha's residence, on Mt. Carmel.

When the Prophet saw her in the distance, he said to Gechazi to run to her and inquire what it was the woman wanted, but she would not disclose the purpose of her visit to Gechazi.  When she entered the house of the prophet, she grasped his legs and would not let go.  She said, "Did I ask you for a son?  Didn't I say, 'Don't lie to me?' "

Realizing what had happened, Elisha sent Gechazi before him with his staff, instructing him to use it to revive the boy.  Gechazi took the staff, but was unable to revive the child.

Elisha entered the house, went to his room, where he found the boy.  He lay on top of him, mouth-to-mouth, eye-to-eye, hand-to-hand, and, as it were, re-introduced the boy's soul into him, using himself as a conduit.  The boy sneezed seven times, and opened his eyes.  The mother opened the door, bowed at Elisha's feet, and took her son.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

q_q_,

Are you thinking about Rambams 13th principle of faith which establishes Techias HaMasim {Ressurection of the Dead} as an undeniable tenet of Jewish belief?

What's that got to do with kabbalah?   It's not some mystical warlord with a fancy hat that will do that, but Hashem Himself will resurrect the dead.   Yes, this is a principle of our faith.

Next....