Learn history - youtube comments are not a good source of accurate information

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

Russia saved European Jewry? For what so the could torture it after the war was over? What was the the mode of combat you Jews go first and us Russians will back you up? Not to minimize the sacrifice that the Jewish people living in Russia made but I think you are out of your mind. I am done with this ignorant nonsense.

I agree with you, it is absurd. It's pathetic to see otherwise right-wing Jews swallowing up Stalinist war propaganda so readily.

[Manch]

Bones, only in two months, July and August, following Citadel in 1943, Luftwaffe in the East lost over 1000 aircraft. Common man, you can do some research!

You really need to stop reading Soviet propaganda. Nazis lost 1000 aircraft (total losses) over the whole year of 1943 in the East.

Source?

Here are some of mine:
http://books.google.ca/books?id=gYDN-UfehEEC&pg=PA1466&lpg=PA1466&dq=Luftwaffe+losses+in+the+East&source=bl&ots=zlhZ5vlg_Q&sig=4Z883KNiRRpv6A_Awj9uIs0crqc&hl=en&ei=9jaTSrvUNYXasQOps-TTDw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=6#v=onepage&q=Luftwaffe%20losses%20in%20the%20East&f=false

http://www.theeasternfront.co.uk/aircraft/russian/russianfighters.htm

[Manch]

Russia saved European Jewry? For what so the could torture it after the war was over? What was the the mode of combat you Jews go first and us Russians will back you up? Not to minimize the sacrifice that the Jewish people living in Russia made but I think you are out of your mind. I am done with this ignorant nonsense.

Well, I am glad it is mutual, cause you are out of your mind. To deny a fact that Red Army save European Jewry from total annihilation is nuts. And speaking of Soviet atrocities against Jews - wasn't USSR the first state to recognize Israel and to send military experts and weapons through controlled Czechoslovakia? USSR did become very antisemitic country after the war, but to compare nazi barbarity to Soviet is crazy.

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

This is obvious PC British Soviet-worship--there was lots of it during and well after WWII (the MiG-15 was made possible, after all, by donations of modern Rolls-Royce jet engines to Stalin as a gift for "standing firm" with Britain against the Nazis).

[cjd]

Paying a higher price in loss of life to wear down and enemy  doesn't make anyone a main player it makes them  stupid and backwards.  Try it sometime

so you're saying the soviets just had huge hordes that commonly practiced human wave attacks or something?

The soviets fought an obsolete war they fought on horse back at some points against a modern German army. The Russians made up the defecency in human numbers.

Yes, and you probably believe that Poles attacked German tanks by cavalry charges!  Buy yourself a book, ignoramus

They did.....You should take your own advice

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

Well, I am glad it is mutual, cause you are out of your mind. To deny a fact that Red Army save European Jewry from total annihilation is nuts. And speaking of Soviet atrocities against Jews - wasn't USSR the first state to recognize Israel and to send military experts and weapons through controlled Czechoslovakia? USSR did become very antisemitic country after the war, but to compare nazi barbarity to Soviet is crazy.

Hitler tried to exterminate every last Jewish man, woman, and child on the face of the earth. Stalin was fine with allowing those Jews who completely gave up their religion and fell down to worship him the right to live. Big improvement.

PS your example of the Soviet Union helping early Israel is laughable--Stalin liked ben Gurion because he was a fellow Marxist, and he thought he would make Israel into a hardcore Stalinist state.

[Manch]

Russia saved European Jewry? For what so the could torture it after the war was over? What was the the mode of combat you Jews go first and us Russians will back you up? Not to minimize the sacrifice that the Jewish people living in Russia made but I think you are out of your mind. I am done with this ignorant nonsense.

I agree with you, it is absurd. It's pathetic to see otherwise right-wing Jews swallowing up Stalinist war propaganda so readily.

Like I said Bones, you've gotta read about it - read some German and Russian sources as well. Glantz and Beevor are quite respectable as well. BTW, did you say a curse today for that snake Efrat? I did, I hope my wishes for terminal brain cancer on him and his loved one are forthcoming soon.

[MarZutra]

I think Katyn Forest massacre is a good example of Russian WW2 history....

[t_h_j]

Paying a higher price in loss of life to wear down and enemy  doesn't make anyone a main player it makes them  stupid and backwards.  Try it sometime

so you're saying the soviets just had huge hordes that commonly practiced human wave attacks or something?

The soviets fought an obsolete war they fought on horse back at some points against a modern German army. The Russians made up the defecency in human numbers.

Yes, and you probably believe that Poles attacked German tanks by cavalry charges!  Buy yourself a book, ignoramus

They did.....You should take your own advice

when exactly?

[cjd]

Russia saved European Jewry? For what so the could torture it after the war was over? What was the the mode of combat you Jews go first and us Russians will back you up? Not to minimize the sacrifice that the Jewish people living in Russia made but I think you are out of your mind. I am done with this ignorant nonsense.

Well, I am glad it is mutual, cause you are out of your mind. To deny a fact that Red Army save European Jewry from total annihilation is nuts. And speaking of Soviet atrocities against Jews - wasn't USSR the first state to recognize Israel and to send military experts and weapons through controlled Czechoslovakia? USSR did become very antisemitic country after the war, but to compare nazi barbarity to Soviet is crazy.

I never made any comparisons! Russia was evil in its own right.

[Manch]

Paying a higher price in loss of life to wear down and enemy  doesn't make anyone a main player it makes them  stupid and backwards.  Try it sometime

so you're saying the soviets just had huge hordes that commonly practiced human wave attacks or something?

The soviets fought an obsolete war they fought on horse back at some points against a modern German army. The Russians made up the defecency in human numbers.

Yes, and you probably believe that Poles attacked German tanks by cavalry charges!  Buy yourself a book, ignoramus

They did.....You should take your own advice

  Get a book without pictures!

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

I had a whole beautiful taunt thread for Efrat that Baltimore unfortunately removed. PM him sometime if you want to know what was in it.

[Manch]

Well, I am glad it is mutual, cause you are out of your mind. To deny a fact that Red Army save European Jewry from total annihilation is nuts. And speaking of Soviet atrocities against Jews - wasn't USSR the first state to recognize Israel and to send military experts and weapons through controlled Czechoslovakia? USSR did become very antisemitic country after the war, but to compare nazi barbarity to Soviet is crazy.

Hitler tried to exterminate every last Jewish man, woman, and child on the face of the earth. Stalin was fine with allowing those Jews who completely gave up their religion and fell down to worship him the right to live. Big improvement.

PS your example of the Soviet Union helping early Israel is laughable--Stalin liked ben Gurion because he was a fellow Marxist, and he thought he would make Israel into a hardcore Stalinist state.

Yes, I agree with that - Stalin recognized his mistake and became virulently antizionist after he failed to control Israel.

[Manch]

I had a whole beautiful taunt thread for Efrat that Baltimore unfortunately removed. PM him sometime if you want to know what was in it.

No, I mean I did ask G-d in my prayer today for this. Literally. First time in my life. Any by G-d, I really want this so much. I begged for it! I hope G-d will answer my prayer!

[MarZutra]

Poland did use some cavalry in 1939.  

[cjd]

Paying a higher price in loss of life to wear down and enemy  doesn't make anyone a main player it makes them  stupid and backwards.  Try it sometime

so you're saying the soviets just had huge hordes that commonly practiced human wave attacks or something?

The soviets fought an obsolete war they fought on horse back at some points against a modern German army. The Russians made up the defecency in human numbers.

Yes, and you probably believe that Poles attacked German tanks by cavalry charges!  Buy yourself a book, ignoramus

They did.....You should take your own advice

  Get a book without pictures!

Thats your problem you need some pictures.

[Manch]

Yes, and you probably believe that Poles attacked German tanks by cavalry charges!  Buy yourself a book, ignoramus

They did.....You should take your own advice

when exactly?

I was referring to infamous Pomorska Brigade myth fabricated by nazi journalists and made further popular by Guderian where they insinuated that Slaves, Poles in this incident, were so backward that Polish Lancers attacked  German tanks with their sabers.
Here what actually happened:

http://www.polamjournal.com/Library/APHistory/Cavalry_Myth/cavalry_myth.html

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

Stop creating tangents Manch. Nobody is talking about the Poles. We asked you why you so gullibly accept pro-Soviet figures sources. I am going to consult some books and get back to you, but I know that the Soviet/German air loss ratio for all of 1943 was around 9 or 10 to 1. Only in 1945 did the Soviets take more German fighters than vice versa. I had the book in mind but have forgotten it for now. I will post the source as soon as I look it back up again.

[Manch]

Stop creating tangents Manch. Nobody is talking about the Poles. We asked you why you so gullibly accept pro-Soviet figures sources. I am going to consult some books and get back to you, but I know that the Soviet/German air loss ratio for all of 1943 was around 9 or 10 to 1. Only in 1945 did the Soviets take more German fighters than vice versa. I had the book in mind but have forgotten it for now. I will post the source as soon as I look it back up again.

No tangent - I just showed that you and cjd learned hitory from youtube comments or from urban tales or from amateurish biased "historians". Ok, I think you numbers are ridiculous, please find some sources. One of the best books that I've read on the subject, albeit a bit biased towards Germans was:

Walter Schwabedissen, "The Russian Air Force in the Eyes of German Commanders", 1960. Walter was a prominent Luftwaffer general.


Also, check out:
http://books.google.ca/books?id=4LrKkp7ynFcC&pg=PA119&lpg=PA119&dq=german+general+stalin%27s+hawks&source=bl&ots=xrCXwjUBL7&sig=aO-17v1eqMoIH1dBKacLw4S0x7s&hl=en&ei=Xj-TSo2hCI3gsQOZ3bjmDw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1#v=onepage&q=&f=false

&

http://www.airpower.maxwell.af.mil/airchronicles/aureview/1974/may-jun/collins.html

[cjd]

Stop creating tangents Manch. Nobody is talking about the Poles. We asked you why you so gullibly accept pro-Soviet figures sources. I am going to consult some books and get back to you, but I know that the Soviet/German air loss ratio for all of 1943 was around 9 or 10 to 1. Only in 1945 did the Soviets take more German fighters than vice versa. I had the book in mind but have forgotten it for now. I will post the source as soon as I look it back up again.

No tangent - I just showed that you and cjd learned hitory from youtube comments or from urban tales or from amateurish biased "historians". Ok, I think you numbers are ridiculous, please find some sources. One of the best books that I've read on the subject, albeit a bit biased towards Germans was:

Walter Schwabedissen, "The Russian Air Force in the Eyes of German Commanders", 1960. Walter was a prominent Luftwaffer general.


Also, check out:
http://books.google.ca/books?id=4LrKkp7ynFcC&pg=PA119&lpg=PA119&dq=german+general+stalin%27s+hawks&source=bl&ots=xrCXwjUBL7&sig=aO-17v1eqMoIH1dBKacLw4S0x7s&hl=en&ei=Xj-TSo2hCI3gsQOZ3bjmDw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1#v=onepage&q=&f=false

&

http://www.airpower.maxwell.af.mil/airchronicles/aureview/1974/may-jun/collins.html

I learned history from You Tube? I don't watch YouTube unless its something thats posted here on the forum sonny boy. I am 51 years old and as I said I don't go for the revisionist crap they feed you little kiddies. You want to bow at he feet of Russians and read the crap they wrote about WW2 be my guest. I read rather read accounts written by the Americans and the English. I grew up around people who fought in the American parts of WW2. I have no use for Russia or its made up history accounts. Soviets needed to thank G-d for and should have built monuments for F.D.R because if they were left on their own Hitler would have slaughtered 2/3 of the countries population. Your nasty remarks throughout the thread makes me feel like I am dealing with a 12 year old and not a very intelligent one at that.

[Spectator]

While I don't agree with many of cjd's views, I understand him very well. He is an American patriot and he doesn't like when the traditional understanding of his country's contribution to WW2 is challenged. If I were American, I would react in the same way. After all, that's an American forum.

Manch, leave the task of proving that the Soviets won the war to the powerful Russian propaganda machine. Why should we do their job? Would Russians care about Israeli Defence Forces as you care about the Red Army?

[cjd]

While I don't agree with many of cjd's views, I understand him very well. He is an American patriot and he doesn't like when the traditional understanding of his country's contribution to WW2 is challenged. If I were American, I would react in the same way. After all, that's an American forum.

Manch, leave the task of proving that the Soviets won the war to the powerful Russian propaganda machine. Why should we do their job? Would Russians care about Israeli Defence Forces as you care about the Red Army?

Thank you Spectator. While its true we did not agree on many things I did enjoy reading and responding to your posts. They contained none of the childish side remarks that were present in Manch's posts.

[Spectator]

cjd, try also to understand Manch. His support of the Soviet version has nothing to do with love of Russia or communism. His grandfathers were Soviet soldiers during the WW2 who fought Nazi beasts on the Eastern front. Soviet victory was also their and, consequently, his victory. Therefore, he takes all attacks on Soviet version personally. One of my grandfathers also fought in the Red Army against the Nazis and finished the war in Berlin. I am very proud of that.

No matter what quality of command and equipment Soviet soldiers had, their personal contribution to the victory and self-sacrifice are enormus.

[Spectator]

Another thing is that Russia is trying to use the victory as an excuse to impose its will on the neighboring countries and justify its global  imperial ambitions. According to this logic, anyone who opposes Russia's official stance is considered "history revisionist" and Nazi supporter. We shouldn't confuse the heroism of the peoples of USSR (mostly Russians) during the WW2 with Russian geo-politics.

[cjd]

cjd, try also to understand Manch. His support of the Soviet version has nothing to do with love of Russia or communism. His grandfathers were Soviet soldiers during the WW2 who fought Nazi beasts on the Eastern front. Soviet victory was also their and, consequently, his victory. Therefore, he takes all attacks on Soviet version personally. One of my grandfathers also fought in the Red Army against the Nazis and finished the war in Berlin. I am very proud of that.

No matter what quality of command and equipment Soviet soldiers had, their personal contribution to the victory and self-sacrifice are enormus.

I really never discredited the contribution that Soviet Russia made to the war they fought a hard won battles. My problem in the original thread and then in this one was the fact that America was made to seem like a side player. This was simply not the case. Manch needs to remember that Russia was fighting for the home turf and if the sacrifice was bigger in blood it needed to be. Lets not forget that America also had to split its resources between the Atlantic and Pacific war something Russia did not have to do. I always thought it was great that the three main players in the game were able to put their differences aside for a while to prosecute the war. I always felt each country did what it was able to to bring the war to a successful close. My hat is off to both your grandfathers they deserve all the respect in the world. I went over to my parents house while we were going through the debate last night and my father who was in Patton's army was quite amused over the tread. He spent some time telling me some interesting accounts about the German and Russian troops and how they fought the war.