Torah and Jewish Idea > Torah and Jewish Idea
First 5 Pasuqim Of Bereishith The Way It Should Be Read!!!
Spectator:
It is true that Sepharadi pronunciation is most likely closer to the original Hebrew but this is true only regarding the consonants. As to vowels, Ashkenazi one is more diverse and I heard some rabbis say that it is more accurate in this aspect. It does make difference between "kamatz" {o} and "patach" {a}, "segol" {e} and "tzere" {ei}, etc. while in Sepahardi version the difference is almost lost. (In Teimani "segol" is pronounced like {a} though, but it is their specific thing and they have to prove it is correct not only to Ashkenazim but also to the other Oriental Jews :))
Regarding the Teimani pronunciation, with all due respect to it and the tradition it was taught, there are things that seem purely Arabic influence, like saying "jimmel" instead of "gimmel". No other version of Sepharadi Hebrew doesn't have such things while in Arabic "g" is always replaced with "j" (for example Arabs say "Jalil" instead of Hebrew "Galil" - Galilee).
I agree with Muman that most rabbis say that one should cling to the tradition of one's own fathers. It is really so. And Ashkenazi pronunciation, with all its variations(Ashkenazi proper, Lita'i and Chassidi), is not error, it is a legitimate variation (dialect if you wish) of Hebrew! Another thing that sometimes Ashkenazi Jews pronounce Hebrew words incorrectly even according the Ashkenazi pronunciation (like saying "mItzvois" instead of "mitzvOis").
That tradition thing is very actual for those who were born in religious families and heard the pronunciation of their fathers from childhood. In case of those who returned to the Torah observance form non-religious families it is less relevant. (I am such person and though I'm Ashkenazi, I was taught modern Hebrew first - which is closer to the Sepharadi one - therefore I pray in Sepharadi pronunciation. One more reason is that Sepharadi was the custom of the Land of Israel (minhag Eretz Yisrael) and many Ashkenazim that came to Israel in past centuries adopted it too)
When Eliyahu ha-Navi returns, he will teach us the correct version of Hebrew. I am almost sure it will include elements from both Ashkenazi and Sepharadi pronunciations, and maybe something that was lost by both.
With that being said, when we speak Hebrew in Israel, we use the pronunciation close to the Sepharadi one. It is a norm of modern spoken Hebrew and even religious Ashkenazi Jews use it in evreyday speech (but not in prayers or Torah-specific items or concepts).
Spectator:
--- Quote from: Zelhar on October 13, 2009, 05:19:05 PM ---The Ashkenazi pronunciation sounds completely alien to Hebrew in my opinion. I think it is Hebrew words pronounced in Yiddish.
--- End quote ---
It is highly subjective thing. I guess the reason you feel so is because you were born in Israel and all your life spoke and heard modern Hebrew - which is much closer to the Sepharadi pronunciation.
Regarding Yiddish, almost opposite is true: Yiddish is one of the dialects of Old German with some percentage of Hebrew words pronounced with German accent :)
Sefardic Panther:
--- Quote from: muman613 on October 13, 2009, 03:22:50 PM ---Do you know this is the 'correct' pronunciation? What is the source for this belief?
--- End quote ---
In Talmud Bavli Berakhoth 13b Sumkhos said that when saying the Shema whoever prolongs the word “ehad” has his days and years prolonged. Rabbi Aha Bar Yaqov and Rabbi Ashi said he must dwell on the Daleth not the Heth. This is only possible with the Temani pronounciation.
Saadia Gaon said in his commentary on the Sefer Yetsirah that the Hebrew letter sounds are practically identical to the Arabic letter sounds. This is not surprising since both are after all Semitic languages unlike Yiddish.
Also it is obvious that the Ashkenazim only pronounce the Waw as an undotted Bet (V sound) because with germanic pronounciation all W sounds are pronounced with a V.
--- Quote from: Dan ben Noah on October 13, 2009, 06:50:29 PM ---The Torah should not be read partially in Arabic, if that is what that video implies,
--- End quote ---
--- Quote from: muman613 on October 13, 2009, 06:58:59 PM ---Yes, why would the Torah be read in Arabic? I don't know what Jewish communities would adopt such a language... Why not read it in Greek or Yiddish?
--- End quote ---
The Arabic translation of the Torah that is part of the Temani liturgy is called the Tafsir. It was written by Saadia Gaon. I assume you are saying that the Torah should not be read in Arabic just because the Arabs are our enemy. Well likewise I could say to you that the Lashon HaQodesh should not be pronounced with a european accent because the europeans are far worse than the Arabs. Need I remind you that the europeans have sadistically tortured and murdered far far more Jews than the Arabs!!!!!
Anyway this is a more valid point since Saadia Gaon himself said Arabic (not Yidddish or Greek) is practically identical to Hebrew. The reason the Torah should be read in Arabic is because it reveals further meaning. For instance Allah is a perfect word to describe Hashem because the word is not male or female. The Arabic language has been a big part of Sefardic and Temani Yehudi culture. Just listen to the Hebrew-Arabic songs of the many great Sefardic and Temani singers. They are by far the best singers in the world!!! Their music is music and if you heard it you would not be able to listen to any other type of music again.
Spectator:
--- Quote from: Sefardic Panther on October 14, 2009, 09:32:10 AM ---
--- Quote from: muman613 on October 13, 2009, 03:22:50 PM ---Do you know this is the 'correct' pronunciation? What is the source for this belief?
--- End quote ---
In Talmud Bavli Berakhoth 13b Sumkhos said that when saying the Shema whoever prolongs the word “ehad” has his days and years prolonged. Rabbi Aha Bar Yaqov and Rabbi Ashi said he must dwell on the Daleth not the Heth. This is only possible with the Temani pronounciation.
--- End quote ---
This is quite possible with Ashkenazi pronunciation too and Ashkenazi Jews successfully do it. Moreover, what is meant by prolonging the word "ehad"? You can prolong only the vowel ("kamatz" in this case), not the whole word. But according to the Ashkenazi pronunciation, kamatz is rendered as {o}, not {a}. So the prolonged word will sound as "eho-o-od". And as I said, there are good reasons to suppose that namely Ashkenazi pronunciation is more correct when it comes to the vowels.
Spectator:
--- Quote from: Sefardic Panther on October 14, 2009, 09:32:10 AM ---
--- Quote from: Dan ben Noah on October 13, 2009, 06:50:29 PM ---The Torah should not be read partially in Arabic, if that is what that video implies,
--- End quote ---
--- Quote from: muman613 on October 13, 2009, 06:58:59 PM ---Yes, why would the Torah be read in Arabic? I don't know what Jewish communities would adopt such a language... Why not read it in Greek or Yiddish?
--- End quote ---
The Arabic translation of the Torah that is part of the Temani liturgy is called the Tafsir. It was written by Saadia Gaon. I assume you are saying that the Torah should not be read in Arabic just because the Arabs are our enemy. Well likewise I could say to you that the Lashon HaQodesh should not be pronounced with a european accent because the europeans are far worse than the Arabs. Need I remind you that the europeans have sadistically tortured and murdered far far more Jews than the Arabs!!!!!
--- End quote ---
Yes, the relations with the other peoples have nothing to do with the Hebrew pronunciation.
Navigation
[0] Message Index
[#] Next page
[*] Previous page
Go to full version