Torah and Jewish Idea > Torah and Jewish Idea
First 5 Pasuqim Of Bereishith The Way It Should Be Read!!!
Kahane-Was-Right BT:
--- Quote from: Spectator on October 14, 2009, 09:55:12 AM ---
--- Quote from: Sefardic Panther on October 14, 2009, 09:32:10 AM ---
--- Quote from: muman613 on October 13, 2009, 03:22:50 PM ---Do you know this is the 'correct' pronunciation? What is the source for this belief?
--- End quote ---
In Talmud Bavli Berakhoth 13b Sumkhos said that when saying the Shema whoever prolongs the word “ehad” has his days and years prolonged. Rabbi Aha Bar Yaqov and Rabbi Ashi said he must dwell on the Daleth not the Heth. This is only possible with the Temani pronounciation.
--- End quote ---
This is quite possible with Ashkenazi pronunciation too and Ashkenazi Jews successfully do it. Moreover, what is meant by prolonging the word "ehad"? You can prolong only the vowel ("kamatz" in this case), not the whole word. But according to the Ashkenazi pronunciation, kamatz is rendered as {o}, not {a}. So the prolonged word will sound as "eho-o-od". And as I said, there are good reasons to suppose that namely Ashkenazi pronunciation is more correct when it comes to the vowels.
--- End quote ---
The gemara says to prolong the DALETH, not the vowels. The only way to prolong the daleth is if it does NOT sound like an english language "d" And indeed, without the dagesh, it is not a "d" but rather a "dth" like you would say at the beginning of a word like "THis" Not to be confused with the aspirated "th" for a word like "thigh" The daleth without dagesh is a hard sounding dth which has an equivalent sound to a letter in the arabic alphabet
With the dagesh, daleth sounds like an english language "d" - Notice in your prayer book that in the Shema, the large daleth at the end has no dagesh (dot) in it. You cannot extend a daleth with a dagesh in it (a d sound), it is not physically possible.
Kahane-Was-Right BT:
--- Quote from: Spectator on October 14, 2009, 07:03:37 AM ---
--- Quote from: Zelhar on October 13, 2009, 05:19:05 PM ---The Ashkenazi pronunciation sounds completely alien to Hebrew in my opinion. I think it is Hebrew words pronounced in Yiddish.
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It is highly subjective thing. I guess the reason you feel so is because you were born in Israel and all your life spoke and heard modern Hebrew - which is much closer to the Sepharadi pronunciation.
Regarding Yiddish, almost opposite is true: Yiddish is one of the dialects of Old German with some percentage of Hebrew words pronounced with German accent :)
--- End quote ---
If anything, the Israeli Hebrew sounds more like Yiddish than Sephardi dialect. The only exception is the taw which is pronounced as a "T" instead of "s" like Ashkenazim say it. Other than that, most letters sound European influenced. The resh is completely butchered into something Russian/East European, the het was completely replaced and duplicated into a khaf even though Sephardim always pronounced het properly.... until they came to Israel that is. As to the vowels, I don't find that Ashkenazi Jews are actually consistent about distinguishing between them, it is only in a few words it seems. Even in davening, it's certain well known oft-repeated words that might have a stronger kamatz sound, but most don't. (Yes, that's still more than Sephardim distinguish those vowel sounds).
I'm not sure what point you are making by saying the Ashkenazi pronunciation does the vowels better. Didn't we already say in this thread that this is not a "competition" and that it does not matter who is better or worse? Like I've said, both sides have their strengths and weaknesses, both have had influence from the galut, but there is still only one ideal lashon hakodesh , even if it is some combination of 3 or 4 different dialects that have preserved different aspects of it.
Kahane-Was-Right BT:
Also, even though I've used the same language as you here, I don't think it's accurate to call these "dialects" of Hebrew because they developed in the galut due to errors, and they were not local differences that sprouted organically in Eretz Yisrael where the language was spoken.
Kahane-Was-Right BT:
--- Quote from: Spectator on October 14, 2009, 10:44:01 AM ---I would add that arguing which pronunciation or culture in general is better, is highly counterproductive!
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Nobody here is arguing something is better or worse. The point is what is correct. Aspects from either side are correct and incorrect.
--- Quote ---Ashkenazi one represents the experience Jews have acquired in the West.
Sepharadi one represents the experience Jews have acquired in the East.
--- End quote ---
Yes exactly, but prior to that "experience" before there was even such a thing as Ashkenazi and Sephardi, Jews spoke Hebrew, their national language, in our homeland. And that that language was corrupted by "experience" in the east and west, is tragic, not something to be celebrated.
Kahane-Was-Right BT:
--- Quote from: Spectator on October 14, 2009, 10:11:10 AM ---
--- Quote from: Sefardic Panther on October 14, 2009, 09:32:10 AM ---The Arabic translation of the Torah that is part of the Temani liturgy is called the Tafsir.
--- End quote ---
--- Quote from: Sefardic Panther on October 14, 2009, 09:32:10 AM ---The reason the Torah should be read in Arabic is because it reveals further meaning. For instance Allah is a perfect word to describe Hashem because the word is not male or female. The Arabic language has been a big part of Sefardic and Temani Yehudi culture.
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Many Ashkenazi rabbis said that since the world center of Torah study was in Eastern Europe for many latest centuries
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That was their world center of Torah study, but there were other Jews in other parts of the world who also learned Torah. I don't buy into the concept of European Torah superiority.
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