Torah and Jewish Idea > Torah and Jewish Idea
First 5 Pasuqim Of Bereishith The Way It Should Be Read!!!
muman613:
yes, it is well known to extend the daleth sound in echad and I have done this since I have made teshuva... I dont see how this is proof of this point... I say "Ech-a-D" and prolong the D sound.
Spectator:
--- Quote from: Kahane-Was-Right BT on October 14, 2009, 11:27:38 AM ---
--- Quote from: Spectator on October 14, 2009, 09:55:12 AM ---
--- Quote from: Sefardic Panther on October 14, 2009, 09:32:10 AM ---
--- Quote from: muman613 on October 13, 2009, 03:22:50 PM ---Do you know this is the 'correct' pronunciation? What is the source for this belief?
--- End quote ---
In Talmud Bavli Berakhoth 13b Sumkhos said that when saying the Shema whoever prolongs the word “ehad” has his days and years prolonged. Rabbi Aha Bar Yaqov and Rabbi Ashi said he must dwell on the Daleth not the Heth. This is only possible with the Temani pronounciation.
--- End quote ---
This is quite possible with Ashkenazi pronunciation too and Ashkenazi Jews successfully do it. Moreover, what is meant by prolonging the word "ehad"? You can prolong only the vowel ("kamatz" in this case), not the whole word. But according to the Ashkenazi pronunciation, kamatz is rendered as {o}, not {a}. So the prolonged word will sound as "eho-o-od". And as I said, there are good reasons to suppose that namely Ashkenazi pronunciation is more correct when it comes to the vowels.
--- End quote ---
The gemara says to prolong the DALETH, not the vowels. The only way to prolong the daleth is if it does NOT sound like an english language "d" And indeed, without the dagesh, it is not a "d" but rather a "dth" like you would say at the beginning of a word like "THis" Not to be confused with the aspirated "th" for a word like "thigh" The daleth without dagesh is a hard sounding dth which has an equivalent sound to a letter in the arabic alphabet
With the dagesh, daleth sounds like an english language "d" - Notice in your prayer book that in the Shema, the large daleth at the end has no dagesh (dot) in it. You cannot extend a daleth with a dagesh in it (a d sound), it is not physically possible.
--- End quote ---
I know the difference between dalet with and without the dagesh (as well as between tav with and without one).
I also know that the Ashkenazim prolong namely kamatz vowel (as "o-o-o") and not the dalet. But they stress dalet and utter it more sharply. I guess you know what I mean.
Could you quote me the piece in Gemara (and better still, in Shulchan Aruch) concerning the laws of reciting the first verse of Shema? Honestly, I never saw the source. I trust the Ashkenazi tradition though.
Spectator:
--- Quote from: Kahane-Was-Right BT on October 14, 2009, 11:32:57 AM ---If anything, the Israeli Hebrew sounds more like Yiddish than Sefaradi dialect. The only exception is the taw which is pronounced as a "T" instead of "s" like Ashkenazim say it. Other than that, most letters sound European influenced. The resh is completely butchered into something Russian/East European, the het was completely replaced and duplicated into a khaf even though Sefaradim always pronounced het properly.... until they came to Israel that is. As to the vowels, I don't find that Ashkenazi Jews are actually consistent about distinguishing between them, it is only in a few words it seems. Even in davening, it's certain well known oft-repeated words that might have a stronger kamatz sound, but most don't. (Yes, that's still more than Sefaradim distinguish those vowel sounds).
--- End quote ---
Of course Israeli Hebrew is closer to the Sefaradi tradition than to the Ashkenazi one. Beside "t" & "s" issue, all the vowels are pronouced as in Sepharadi. Moreover, Sefaradi pronunciation officially is declared as the basis for the standard one. But I agree that Israeli Hebrew is different from Sepharadi. Actually, it is much more primitive because the Ashkenazi atheists who estabished the state and revived Hebrew, just could not pronounce guttural consonants correctly, as requried by Sepharadi tradition. On the other hand, they wanted to get rid of their "galut" Ashkenazi pronunciation and threw all the diversity of vowels in it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guttural
Spectator:
--- Quote from: Kahane-Was-Right BT on October 14, 2009, 11:32:57 AM ---The resh is completely butchered into something Russian/East European,
--- End quote ---
Israeli resh has nothing to do with Russian "r". The latter is much close to Sefaradi/Arabic one than to Eastern European.
But Israeli resh is indeed butchered.
Spectator:
--- Quote from: Kahane-Was-Right BT on October 14, 2009, 11:42:07 AM ---
--- Quote from: Spectator on October 14, 2009, 10:11:10 AM ---
--- Quote from: Sefardic Panther on October 14, 2009, 09:32:10 AM ---The Arabic translation of the Torah that is part of the Temani liturgy is called the Tafsir.
--- End quote ---
--- Quote from: Sefardic Panther on October 14, 2009, 09:32:10 AM ---The reason the Torah should be read in Arabic is because it reveals further meaning. For instance Allah is a perfect word to describe Hashem because the word is not male or female. The Arabic language has been a big part of Sefardic and Temani Yehudi culture.
--- End quote ---
Many Ashkenazi rabbis said that since the world center of Torah study was in Eastern Europe for many latest centuries
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That was their world center of Torah study, but there were other Jews in other parts of the world who also learned Torah. I don't buy into the concept of European Torah superiority.
--- End quote ---
I don't buy it either. But it definitely has some unique strong points and we should respect it. This my response was special for Sefardic Panther who I think is prejudiced against the Ashkenazi pronunciation and Ashkenazi tradition in general. I would be happy if I am mistaken.
And what do you mean by their world center of Torah study? Aren't you an Ashkenazi? Isn't their tradition yours? :)
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