First 5 Pasuqim Of Bereishith The Way It Should Be Read!!!

[muman613]

yes, it is well known to extend the daleth sound in echad and I have done this since I have made teshuva... I dont see how this is proof of this point... I say "Ech-a-D" and prolong the D sound.

[Spectator]

Do you know this is the 'correct' pronunciation? What is the source for this belief?

In Talmud Bavli Berakhoth 13b Sumkhos said that when saying the Shema whoever prolongs the word “ehad” has his days and years prolonged. Rabbi Aha Bar Yaqov and Rabbi Ashi said he must dwell on the Daleth not the Heth. This is only possible with the Temani pronounciation.

This is quite possible with Ashkenazi pronunciation too and Ashkenazi Jews successfully do it. Moreover, what is meant by prolonging the word "ehad"? You can prolong only the vowel ("kamatz" in this case), not the whole word. But according to the Ashkenazi pronunciation, kamatz is rendered as {o}, not {a}. So the prolonged word will sound as "eho-o-od". And as I said, there are good reasons to suppose that namely Ashkenazi pronunciation is more correct when it comes to the vowels.

The gemara says to prolong the DALETH, not the vowels.   The only way to prolong the daleth is if it does NOT sound like an english language "d"     And indeed, without the dagesh, it is not a "d" but rather a "dth"  like you would say at the beginning of a word like "THis"    Not to be confused with the aspirated "th" for a word like "thigh"      The daleth without dagesh is a hard sounding dth   which has an equivalent sound to a letter in the arabic alphabet

With the dagesh, daleth sounds like an english language "d" - Notice in your prayer book that in the Shema, the large daleth at the end has no dagesh (dot) in it.     You cannot extend a daleth with a dagesh in it (a d sound), it is not physically possible.

I know the difference between dalet with and without the dagesh (as well as between tav with and without one).

I also know that the Ashkenazim prolong namely kamatz vowel (as "o-o-o") and not the dalet. But they stress dalet and utter it more sharply. I guess you know what I mean.

Could you quote me the piece in Gemara (and better still, in Shulchan Aruch) concerning the laws of reciting the first verse of Shema? Honestly, I never saw the source. I trust the Ashkenazi tradition though. 

[Spectator]

If anything, the Israeli Hebrew sounds more like Yiddish than Sefaradi dialect.   The only exception is the taw which is pronounced as a "T" instead of "s" like Ashkenazim say it.   Other than that, most letters sound European influenced.  The resh is completely butchered into something Russian/East European, the het was completely replaced and duplicated into a khaf even though Sefaradim always pronounced het properly.... until they came to Israel that is.   As to the vowels, I don't find that Ashkenazi Jews are actually consistent about distinguishing between them, it is only in a few words it seems.   Even in davening, it's certain well known oft-repeated words that might have a stronger kamatz sound, but most don't.  (Yes, that's still more than Sefaradim distinguish those vowel sounds).

Of course Israeli Hebrew is closer to the Sefaradi tradition than to the Ashkenazi one. Beside "t" & "s" issue, all the vowels are pronouced as in Sepharadi. Moreover, Sefaradi pronunciation officially is declared as the basis for the standard one. But I agree that Israeli Hebrew is different from Sepharadi. Actually, it is much more primitive because the Ashkenazi atheists who estabished the state and revived Hebrew, just could not pronounce guttural consonants correctly, as requried by Sepharadi tradition. On the other hand, they wanted to get rid of their "galut" Ashkenazi pronunciation and threw all the diversity of vowels in it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guttural

[Spectator]

The resh is completely butchered into something Russian/East European,

Israeli resh has nothing to do with Russian "r". The latter is much close to Sefaradi/Arabic one than to Eastern European.
But Israeli resh is indeed butchered.

[Spectator]

The Arabic translation of the Torah that is part of the Temani liturgy is called the Tafsir.

The reason the Torah should be read in Arabic is because it reveals further meaning. For instance Allah is a perfect word to describe Hashem because the word is not male or female. The Arabic language has been a big part of Sefardic and Temani Yehudi culture.

Many Ashkenazi rabbis said that since the world center of Torah study was in Eastern Europe for many latest centuries

That was their world center of Torah study, but there were other Jews in other parts of the world who also learned Torah.   I don't buy into the concept of European Torah superiority.

I don't buy it either. But it definitely has some unique strong points and we should respect it. This my response was special for Sefardic Panther who I think is prejudiced against the Ashkenazi pronunciation and Ashkenazi tradition in general. I would be happy if I am mistaken.


And what do you mean by their world center of Torah study? Aren't you an Ashkenazi? Isn't their tradition yours? 

[Spectator]

I'm not sure what point you are making by saying the Ashkenazi pronunciation does the vowels better.   Didn't we already say in this thread that this is not a "competition" and that it does not matter who is better or worse?  Like I've said, both sides have their strengths and weaknesses, both have had influence from the galut, but there is still only one ideal lashon hakodesh , even if it is some combination of 3 or 4 different dialects that have preserved different aspects of it.

Of course it's not a competition. As you said:

Nobody here is arguing something is better or worse.  The point is what is correct.   Aspects from either side are correct and incorrect.

So I state that the advantage of Askenazi pronouncation is in its vowels, as well as I admit that Sefaradi has advantage in consonants. Ashkenazi is more likely close to the correct in vowels, and Sepharadi is in consonants.

[Spectator]

Also, even though I've used the same language as you here, I don't think it's accurate to call these "dialects" of Hebrew because they developed in the galut due to errors, and they were not local differences that sprouted organically in Eretz Yisrael where the language was spoken.

I agree that "dialects" is not too correct word for Ashkenazi and Sefaradi pronouncatios. I used it just to show that both of them are legitimate versions of Hebrew, as two recognized dialects of a language can be legitimate.

because they developed in the galut due to errors

I agree but I would formulate it otherwise. They both preserved those unique Hebrew features that were similar to the respective  languages of peoples Ashkenazim and Sepharadim lived with.

[Spectator]

The Ashkenazi pronunciation sounds completely alien to Hebrew in my opinion. I think it is Hebrew words pronounced in Yiddish.

I agree 100% I am Ashkenazi but I learned to speak Hebrew the Israeli way and now that I am in Israel it makes it much easier for me.

Nobody argues here about modern spoken Hebrew. Even Israeli religious Ashkenazim use "Israeli way" in everyday speech. 

[Sefardic Panther]

I am certainly not prejudiced against the Ashkenazi tradition. On the contrary I study Hasiduth, the Tanya and Rebbe Nachman’s books. I admire the Ashkenazi Rebbes and would never have a bad word said about them. Rashi was Ashkenazi and Rabbi Meir Kahane was Ashkenazi and the Gedol of our generation Rabbi Mordechai Freidman Shlita is Ashkenazi. I hope that Rabbi Mordechai Freidman Shlita will one day become the Chief Rabbi of Israel or the head of the Sanhedrin because he is the best religious Zionist Rabbi.

Certainly Yiddish should be preserved with in the context of Torah study but when it comes to reading the Torah itself the germanic pronounciation of Hebrew is inaccurate. The Torah was mostly written in the ancient Akkadian dialect. I think that’s the reason why Hebrew and Arabic are identical because they both derived from Akkadian. Akkadian was the ancient language of the Arabian peninsula where Avraham Avinu’s ancestors invaded Sumer from. Read Talmud Bavli Berakhoth 13b it says the Daleth in Ehad (not the Heth or the kamats) must be prolonged which is impossible with european pronouciation. And read the Sefer Yetsirah with Saadia Gaon’s commentary he said the Hebrew language has 29 sounds (the 22 letters plus the 7 alternate letter sounds) which are identical to Arabic. With all due respect those sources trump whatever anyone else has said about the correct pronounciation of Toranic Hebrew.

[Spectator]

Spephardic Panther, I am happy that you are not against Ashkenazi tradition and scholars.

Regarding Saadia Gaon’s commentary on Hebrew language. As I can see from your post, the commentary deals with the Hebrew letters that represent consonants. What about nekudot that represent vowels? What about the difference between patch and kamatz, segol and tzere, etc?

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

The Arabic translation of the Torah that is part of the Temani liturgy is called the Tafsir.

The reason the Torah should be read in Arabic is because it reveals further meaning. For instance Allah is a perfect word to describe Hashem because the word is not male or female. The Arabic language has been a big part of Sefardic and Temani Yehudi culture.

Many Ashkenazi rabbis said that since the world center of Torah study was in Eastern Europe for many latest centuries

That was their world center of Torah study, but there were other Jews in other parts of the world who also learned Torah.   I don't buy into the concept of European Torah superiority.

I don't buy it either. But it definitely has some unique strong points and we should respect it. This my response was special for Sefardic Panther who I think is prejudiced against the Ashkenazi pronunciation and Ashkenazi tradition in general. I would be happy if I am mistaken.


And what do you mean by their world center of Torah study? Aren't you an Ashkenazi? Isn't their tradition yours? 

"Their" as in those rabbis who said it.  Particular to them and not to Jews who were from (or in) other places.

"I" have nothing to do with any of it.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

yes, it is well known to extend the daleth sound in echad and I have done this since I have made teshuva... I dont see how this is proof of this point... I say "Ech-a-D" and prolong the D sound.

Saying "Da" is not extending a "d" sound, you are actually making a foreign sound attached to the end of the 'd'

To extend an "s" sound would you say "sssssss" ?   Or "SSAAH"   Obviously not "Suh"   You've added a vowel to "S"

To extend an "m" sound would you say "mmmm"  ?  Or "mmmmMUH"   Obviously not "Muh"  because you've added a vowel sound to the "m"


There is no way to "extend" certain consonant sounds.   That in itself is proof that Daleth without a dagesh is NOT a "D" sound.   "P" is another sound you cannot extend.   "K"  would probably be another.   "T" is another.

Sounds that CAN be extended, include zzzzzz, ssssss, mmmmm, etc



Saying "echaa  dUH" (like I know some people do) is just adding a vowel to the end of echad, and that is NOT what the Talmud says to do.

[muman613]

KWRBT,

I am often intrigued at your opinions on many topics. Would I be asking too much if I asked you what minhag you follow, and what your family minhag has been? I am interested because it would explain to me why you have the opinions which you have.

Personally I am descended from Polish and Ukranian Jews. As a result I believe that I have the traits of both Chassidic and Litvik Jews. My family emigrated from Uman in the early 20th century and I believe they may have been involved with Breslov chassidus.

Thank you
 

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

I also know that the Ashkenazim prolong namely kamatz vowel (as "o-o-o") and not the dalet. But they stress dalet and utter it more sharply. I guess you know what I mean.

Do you think that "uttering it more sharply" is the same thing as "extending it"  ?   I sure don't.   Neither did other great rabbanim.

Here is an article about it from Rabbi Bar Hayim where he speaks about this issue and some interesting anecdotes about it.    It was posted into "esser agaroth's" blog.

http://esseragaroth.blogspot.com/2008/09/lashon-haqodesh-loshon-hakodesh.html

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

The resh is completely butchered into something Russian/East European,

Israeli resh has nothing to do with Russian "r". The latter is much close to Sefaradi/Arabic one than to Eastern European.
But Israeli resh is indeed butchered.

You're right, I think I meant to say German.   I think the Israeli "resh" sounds like a German way of saying it.  I had never even known such a sound existed until I met Israelis.   Either way, it's not like Arabic.   The resh is supposed to roll off the tip of the tongue like in Arabic (maybe not every dialect though).   The Spanish way to make r sound   sounds more correct than the Israeli way, even though that is also not it exactly.

[muman613]

Some of what is written on that blog sounds obviously anti-Ashkenazi to me...

Maybe it is not intended that way. But it sounds like he is trying to prove that Ashkenazim got it wrong...

[muman613]

I am open to learning the ways of others and if there is truth then I will try to understand. But I don't know where this thread is going. I don't want this to lead to divisiveness.

I will agree that there may be truth in what you are saying but the Rabbis I listen to do not teach this. I will honor the Rabbis which I trust and their pursuit of truth. In the meanwhile I will accept that other Jews have different minhagim.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

KWRBT,

I am often intrigued at your opinions on many topics. Would I be asking too much if I asked you what minhag you follow, and what your family minhag has been? I am interested because it would explain to me why you have the opinions which you have.

Personally I am descended from Polish and Ukranian Jews. As a result I believe that I have the traits of both Chassidic and Litvik Jews. My family emigrated from Uman in the early 20th century and I believe they may have been involved with Breslov chassidus.

Thank you
 

Muman, we are not from the same places but close.  My familiy descends from Lithuania, I am ashkenazi background with yiddish-speaking grandparents and great grandparents.    We also descend from other places in Europe (ashkenazic).    I am a baal teshuvah and there is no particular minhag for me to uphold considering I wasn't left anything except a bar mitzvah and a passover seder in all the dilution that took place.   But of course my grandfather pronounces Hebrew like all ashkenazim, with a "sav," and there may be minor customs here and there that he can remember his parents doing or not doing.     But I am not in anyway beholden to do what he did, if in a particular instance I can see that something was maintained merely due to error, or lack of correction (or because where they were from they couldn't say a certain sound).  If I learn out the issue and see what to do correctly with the help of Rabbis, (and I'm able to pronounce the sound) I can just do that.   And if they had known, they themselves would have corrected it earlier.   But back then education wasn't so widespread, and you couldn't just look up Torah sources in a google search or a quick trip to the local yeshiva with stacked-to-the-brim beit midrash, with easy access by car.     And no one could know, hey, there's Jews halfway across the world and they say Hebrew differently!  And even if they did, it would take a great deal of searching to figure out who's right.   Only the greatest of scholars like the Yaabetz, Saadiah Gaon, etc knew about these issues in a precise way.

And the fact that I even look at the Torah, is in itself a novel concept for those in my family still living.   The fact that I am keeping Shabbat and mitzvot is itself "going against custom" because my family obviously stopped keeping halacha, first gradually, then entirely.    There is nothing in halacha that says "if your grandpa did x, you must do x" otherwise Avraham would have been forced to be an idolator (chas veshalom) - and yes that's an extreme example but I'm just making a point of principle, that as Jews we do not just go by "custom" even though custom is important.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Some of what is written on that blog sounds obviously anti-Ashkenazi to me...

Maybe it is not intended that way. But it sounds like he is trying to prove that Ashkenazim got it wrong...

"Many authorities have openly recognized the lackings of present-day Ashkenazi and Sepharadi pronunciations. The renowned Ashkenazi rabbi R. Ya'aqov Emden (Ya'abes) writes in his introduction to his famous Siddur Beth Ya'aqov: "Pronunciation must be complete and correct...particularly one must not confuse alephs with 'ayins and hehs...not to mention confusing totally dissimilar letters ...not as we the Ashkenazim pronounce the undotted tauw (tav) as a samekh, to our shame. In the matter of vowels, however, we are much better off, not like the Sepharadim who do not distinguish between a qames (kamatz) and a patah..." (new Eshkol edition p. 10). "

Sounds like equal opportunity criticism to me.

I think it is only "anti-Ashkenazi" if a person thinks from the outset that any pointing out of error in any aspect of Ashkenazic minhag is "anti-Ashkenazi."    So is the author also Anti-Sephardi?   Because clearly he points out the weakness/error in Sephardi pronunciation of vowels, which the Ashkenaz has as a strength.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

I am open to learning the ways of others and if there is truth then I will try to understand. But I don't know where this thread is going. I don't want this to lead to divisiveness.

I will agree that there may be truth in what you are saying but the Rabbis I listen to do not teach this. I will honor the Rabbis which I trust and their pursuit of truth. In the meanwhile I will accept that other Jews have different minhagim.

If something is very obvious, one doesn't really need a rabbi to explain it and then to have "faith" or "trust" in a rabbi that only he has the intellect to understand something simple, while no one else can understand something understandable.   

Unless that rabbi has an OBJECTION to something very obvious, with a complicated explanation for why it is incorrect.  Then in that case by all means hear out the rabbi, and please report back to me how he refutes you and your new information.   I am dying to hear your rabbis' explanations for how any of this is wrong or incorrect, and why a person should say "Echaa DUH" in light of this very clear and enlightening information.     And I wonder how they would argue against the Saadiah Gaon, Rabbi Yakov Emden, and Rabbi Yaakov Kamenetsy among others.   That would be a sight to see.

[muman613]

KWRBT,

I think we do have a lot in common... My family has also assimilated and I think I am the only Jew who is observing Shabbat and doing Mitzvot. I think I have brought some Jewish belief back into my parents and they are proud of my level of Jewish observance even though they are non-observant.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

I think I have brought some Jewish belief back into my parents and they are proud of my level of Jewish observance even though they are non-observant.

Muman that is wonderful, to be a positive influence in their lives and that they are proud of what you are doing is a tremendous blessing, Baruch Hashem.   I hope you will continue in this regard.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Also,

"Seeing that Hebrew ceased (until recently) to be a spoken and living language at least 2000 years ago, the Ashkenazim simply never heard such a sound, and could not, therefore, pronounce it. "

To me this is anything BUT "anti-ashkenazi" - it gives a good, rational and sensible reason why to no fault of their own Ashkenazi Jews lost this tradition of the Ayin.   There is no blame at all assigned here, and no criticism just a hypothetical statement that is extremely likely to be true.

[muman613]

OK,
Maybe I was just being sensitive about it... I will not be judgmental at this time.. Of course I will study more and try to figure out how to deal with this.

[muman613]

This site is very interesting... It has various songs with different Hebrew pronunciations...

http://torahreading.dafyomireview.com/

Torah Reading - Ashkenaz (complete) (courtesy of kolhaloshon.com)

Torah Reading - Sefardi (complete) (most of Devarim by Chazan Moshe Shema)

Tehilim Reading - Chasidish (Israeli)

Tehilim Reading - Yemenite Sefardi

Shir HaShirim (song of songs) - Israeli  (Musical. CD quality)

 Megilas Shir HaShirim, Esther, Ruth, Eicha  Cantorial Ashkenazi  (from 613.org)