Advice Please My brother just proposed to a [Non-Jew]

[דוד בן זאב אריה]

Shalom JTFers

Plese come back to me with advice. My brother just proposed to to a Non Jew I am very very upset I just spoke to his Chabad Rabbi who lives only 2 miles from the Rabbi. I got really pissed at him he messaged me on MSN messenger to tell me the (Good) news. I got really pissed. Please come back at me with something practile.

 

[Lisa]

I'm sorry to hear that, David. 

Do your parents know?  What do they think?  What kind of Jewish education did your brother receive?  How old is your brother? 

[דוד בן זאב אריה]

I don't even know if my parents know. He runined the end of my Purim by messaging me online. He got the same education as me a little a little hebrew and reform sunday school. he is 22

[eb22]

Like Lisa mentioned,   I'm sorry about the difficult situation.

One suggestion that immediately comes to mind is to mention the situation on the next "Ask JTF" program.     Chaim's input might prove helpful for you ( and your family )   and others listening to the program.       Not just for Jews but for Righteous Gentiles who hear his response.     

[AsheDina]

This is terrible, in many ways. All that I can think is that if she gets mad, she will call him a kike or a dirty Jew.  This is sad. Is she willing to convert, or AT LEAST be accepting of his faith? I dont even know what to say, there is so much Jew hate out there, this makes me upset.

[Rubystars]

It's wrong for people of different religions to marry because it creates disharmony in the home and a husband and wife should have the same beliefs on most issues in order to form a united family. I'm sorry to hear this is happening.

Does your brother know that if he has children with a non-Jewish woman that his children will not be Jewish? Maybe he isn't aware of that?

It's really good when Jewish people have a lot of Jewish babies to make up for the horrible things that were done to their people in the past.

There should be many more Jews in the world today than there are. There are a lot of missing Jews and this is a horrible crime that was done to the Jewish people. It makes me sad to know that some people who could have Jewish children are choosing to have non-Jewish children instead and giving up their own identity in the process.

[Zelhar]

You can't tell your brother what to do, so try pumping values into him and he might reach the right conclusions. Besides 22 is too young, I bet their union won't even get to the chupa figuratively in this cawse...) and if by a long shot they do, their union won't last long.

[mord]

I wish i knew what to tell you but like Rubystars said it can be very problematic

[cjd]

As zelhar said you really can't tell him what to do and arguing with him about it will only strain the relationship with your brother. Try talking to him and remind him of some of the pitfalls ahead for him in that sort of marrage. I know its not the right progression of things but who knows the girl may be willing to convert. As others have said in this thread give the situation some time unless he is getting married quickly the the relationship may cool and he may reevaluate what he is getting himself into.

[Lisa]

David,

22 sounds very young for a man to get married.  What kind of work does your brother do?  Will it be enough at his age to support a wife and future children?  That's something to remind him of.  How long has he known this woman?  Where did the two meet?  Has anyone in your family met the young woman? 

[JTFenthusiast2]

If he has a Chabad rabbi, he knows the depth and severity of his decision to marry outside of the faith.  This suggests to me that he truly loves her.  He has contemplated this marriage under less than ideal circumstances.  I think when family members do things we disagree with, we can roll with it, for better or worse, and love them through it OR we can become hysterical and selfishly contemplate how this affects us.

I say go with number one.  It doesn't mean you approve.   

[White Israelite]

I've been in this situation before from experience and I think that if it's not meant to be, then it's not meant to be. We have to listen to G-ds word and I've gone through some painful breakups before as a result. It's very easy to fall in love with someone but we were told specifically not to intermarry because G-d intended for us to stay with each other.

[muman613]

My sympathies ....

Try to explain that it is important to be a Jew and that if he marries a non Jew he will break the legacy of your family. There is hope if she is willing to convert {and I accept this option because of personal experience}.

[JTFenthusiast2]

I second Muman's input as well.  It gives perspective without being angry and in his face.  It presents a reality that he should have to contemplate

[Baltimore]

Say 22 is too young and that he should wait until he is at least 25.  By the time he is 25 he will have a completely different perspective on life.

Good luck.

[WestCoastJTF]

22 sounds very young for a man to get married.

I semi-agree.  I have known very religious people who get married at 18 or 19 and it works.  I believe the typical age of marriage among Orthodox Jews is younger than the general population.  People who have a very strong religious foundation and deep commitment to live a righteous life can make a marriage work.

For anyone else, though - and that would include the man being discussed here - I would never recommend getting married before 25, and if you don't plan to have kids, not until you're in your 30s.  In this man's case, there is every likelihood that his marriage won't last 5 years.  That is simply a sad statistic.

What's the rush?  They can be a couple for a few years - no harm done.

People who marry young and are not very religious are typically people trying to fulfill some need in their life.  You might help him do some soul-searching.  So many young people are empty vessels who think getting married to another empty vessel will bring meaning to their lives.

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

I wanted to marry when I was 22, but only to a righteous Christian woman. I am very sorry to hear of this, David, but it seems to me like your brother is just very rebellious and doesn't give a damn about his faith and his heritage.

[Dr. Dan]

I'm going to be brutal about this. You and your family do everything you can to prevent this from happening. However, do it very cautiously.  A man in love is not a man you want to frontal force at.  Also, you have time on your side. I don't know the values of your family, however he is only 22!  Good thing he's not 42.

First, know who your brother is.  Is he rebellious?  Is he passionate? Is he obedient?
Know who is girlfriend is?  Is she a witch?  Is she sweet?  Is she the jealous type? What are her parents like?  Are they for this or against this?  If they are against it for the same reasons your family would be, then you have allies that can help.

Pardon me for this, but is your brother a horny toad? Do his eyes wander when pretty girls walk by?  Has he ever been single for a long time with lots of girlfriends? I doubt it since he's only 22. 

How long has your brother been dating this girl?

I'm 32 and have been married for a year...it's a different world, this marriage thing.  There is a time when you are ready and should do it and a time that you really shouldn't do it. It requires a type of maturity that is hard to pinpoint.  A marriage can end quickly once the bells and whistles of it become reality.  In the beginning it is "Ladeeda"...but once married it's permanent...and then the fights can ensue and who knows...a younger immature man and woman can cheat potentially...

and financially it's very difficult...can't imagine what a 22 year old can pull off.  You don't just get married and move into a smelly shack and let love do it's thing.  And what if she gets pregnant and they're not ready, then they'll go on welfare like all the Shvartzas..oye!

you have to think about how you are going to approach this...the last thing you want to do is at the attempt of breaking them up, they run away and disappear together.

And for those of you hear you who said she should convert, I say, "no way, Jose!"  It doesn't work like that in Judaism.

I have so many questions to ask you about your brother and his girlfriend. P.M. me and we'll talk.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

I don't even know if my parents know. He runined the end of my Purim by messaging me online. He got the same education as me a little a little hebrew and reform sunday school. he is 22

I'm so sorry to hear this, David.  This is terrible.   I hope I won't have to face a similar situation with my brother.   Are there any rabbis at your yeshiva who can offer you a good advice?   Anticipating what might happen in my family (G-d forbid), I have already learned from my gemara rebbe that it is forbidden for me to express any approval of an intermarriage.   As for practical advice, I don't know.   I hope I won't also have to be asking the same question one of these days.   

What can really be done at this point?   He's already proposed?   You can tell him you're against it, try to get him to reconsider, but unfortunately something this far along, he probably won't listen.

[ChaimBenMordechai]

I knew a guy who was dating a shiksa. The were together for about a year until she told him that she wanted to be with a nice catholic boy. She left him for a guy who originally was planning to go into the priesthood. He told her to dump my friend and she did. My friend was a mess. Only one thing went thru my mind: a shiksa bleibt a shiksa.

Sad thing is that he was so messed up from what she did to him he assaulted her new beau. Wasn't worth it; shikses never are.

[New Yorker]

22? He won't marry her. To young and still crazy, at 22 (she's the same age if not younger?) they'll be lucky to finish out the summer before having a massive fight and breaking up, possibly with her throwing the ring at him in dramatic flair.

[✡ Hindu Zionist ॐ]

Call the Yad Lachim and seek their help/advice. I'm sure they have ideas.

[דוד בן זאב אריה]

Call the Yad Lachim and seek their help/advice. I'm sure they have ideas.

Who is Yah L'Chiam??

[Zelhar]

Call the Yad Lachim and seek their help/advice. I'm sure they have ideas.

Who is Yah L'Chiam??

יד לאחים Yad LeAchim is an Israeli anti-msionary/anti-assimilation organisation (a charedi organisation as far as I know). They rescue Jewish woman from Arab villages and help them to come back to their families and faith. But in your case I don't think they can help you, except maybe in giving you advice on how to speak to your brother.

[Maccabi]

maybe you can find that article about the founders of reform Judaism and how like 99% intermarried.

If someone can find a link to that study please post it here.