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Zelhar:
I didn't say that popular science is junk reading material, it is however different from actual science. if you want to learn physics you must learn to deal with equations and math etc. Sort of like you can't learn to drive a car just by reading car magazines.

Your argument that God is not so petty that he exacts revenge from a person for not believing in him makes sense. But you need to understand that the question of God is entirely different from the question of which religion if any is true. I am secular Jewish myself so basically I don't believe in any religion but I don't deny God. The question of God is also not a scientific question only, that is the difference between physics and metaphysics... I grant you the fact that so far nobody has been able to "measure" God in a physical way, which is good because by definition everything that can be measured is not God but part of the universe, which God creates. Is it possible to scientifically disprove God- of course it is impossible to disprove a concept that is no physical. That would be even harder than trying to disprove that a certain idea exists.

Finally the Torah and the Talmud are not scientific documents, they are not supposed to teach you science and you can't learn science by studying Torah.

Ben m:

--- Quote from: Zelhar on May 04, 2010, 12:53:13 PM ---I didn't say that popular science is junk reading material, it is however different from actual science. if you want to learn physics you must learn to deal with equations and math etc. Sort of like you can't learn to drive a car just by reading car magazines.

Your argument that G-d is not so petty that he exacts revenge from a person for not believing in him makes sense. But you need to understand that the question of G-d is entirely different from the question of which religion if any is true. I am secular Jewish myself so basically I don't believe in any religion but I don't deny G-d. The question of G-d is also not a scientific question only, that is the difference between physics and metaphysics... I grant you the fact that so far nobody has been able to "measure" G-d in a physical way, which is good because by definition everything that can be measured is not G-d but part of the universe, which G-d creates. Is it possible to scientifically disprove G-d- of course it is impossible to disprove a concept that is no physical. That would be even harder than trying to disprove that a certain idea exists.

Finally the Torah and the Talmud are not scientific documents, they are not supposed to teach you science and you can't learn science by studying Torah.

--- End quote ---
zelhar,i am currently learning the equations in a little step at a time.in the meantime i am reading popuar science to understand the nature of the equations when i will get to it around several years from now.now for the question of god,i have a few questions for you (and for everyone else here)
1)did you hear about the the occam's razor,it is said that entities must not be multiplied beyond necessity.in other words it is said that when you get to a question,especialy for a complex question like god's existence the simplest solution is probably the true one,there are many much more simpler solutions than god for example,evolution of religion or natural forces.so what do you have about this?how do you simplified god? (i know it is sound very lame,i just can't think of better words right now)
2)how do you explains the obious contradiction between the torah and the new testament,like in the subject of kashrut or the indentity of the messiah? very weird to me that god with his infinite wisdon would contradicte itself (i am not talking about the quarn on purpose,even when i belived god i didn't belive it to be a legitimate revelation but a sick and sadistic book for psychopats).
3)if god is so benevolent then why evil exists? why he permitted the holocaust or the influx of muslims to europe or the murder of great peoples like kahane and goldstein,i personally do not think of terms of good and evil but it seems to me flawed that god permit evil to exist.if the trend continue maybe i  would need to consider to pray to satan instead of god as i see only evil in this world.
4)and again why in both revelations god punish all the people that didn't belived him even when they never heard about the revelations (like the ancient idoll worshippers or the unbaptized according to christianity).again i think it is pretty childish and evil and so it is connected to argument number 3.
5)again if god is so benevolent one should expect he creates all the organism of this world with optimal design,most of the organisms designs is clearly suboptimal and too much fragile.
6)if god exists and want beliver why didn't he just force people to worship him? and if he don't want to do a better job in gathering worshippers it is implied that he want atheists to exist in this world therefore i am only fullfilling god's will.
7)who has the burden of proof.since you believe in something that cannot be measured and under controversy and i do not belive in such thing the burden of proof is currently iles upon your shoulders.
8) god need to be at least as complex as the entire universe so logicaly somebody would have need to create him as such thing's by your logic can't evolve naturaly but also this creator need creator and we get a chain of infinite creator.this is very flawed and illogical.
9)could god create a stone he couldn't lift? could he create a man more smarter then him? if he can't he isn't omnipotent and therefore don't exist and if he can he don't beig omnipotent and therefore don't exist,i alway enjoy to see people run in circles trying to create ways around this question.
10) if god is so benevolent then why is he sending people to hell most of the times for nothing?i don't think i deserve eternal damnation for beign an atheist for a limited time and it is implying that he is nothing more than a servant of satan,maybe i sould embrace statanism.
11)why an omniscient beig with no needs or desire would create the universe? maybe he has some need asnd therefore not a true god.
12)most of the ancient religions proved to be untrue,why should it be differnete with contemporary ones.like stephen f robert said ''I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours.''
5)

muman613:
You ask many questions and virtually all of them have been asked before and there are many deep answers to them...

You must seek the truth by asking questions to those who have wisdom. Wisdom is not learned from science books. You cannot reduce life to simple equations and models because life is very complex. There are things which you do not have control over. Humans are made in the image of G-d and yet we are limited and we are finite. We must do our best to learn while we are alive. But I think it is a very big error to put your faith in science which is simply a tool of mankind. Science is a tool which we use to explain how Hashem works in this world, the physical world. But there is no science which will explain to you how the spiritual world works. This is also built into the nature of creation.

Regarding the other false religions... Of course Hashem allows all other religions to exist. He also allows falsehood to exist. This is the greatest invention which Hashem created... This is called Free Will...

There are many resources on the Internet which you could, if you were interested, learn from....

Do not close your mind to the awesomeness of the one who created everything, even yourself..


PS: Are you sure you are Jewish? You seem to mention a lot of Christian ideas such as the Devil and Hell... Jews don't exactly believe in eternal damnation in hell, nor do we believe those who don't believe in Hashem go to hell...

PPS: Regarding the Jewish explanation as to why Hashem created this Universe... He created it in order to be able to do kindness to his creations. This is the primary explanation as to why he created this world... One cannot be a giver unless one has someone to give to...

Zelhar:

--- Quote ---zelhar,i am currently learning the equations in a little step at a time.in the meantime i am reading popuar science to understand the nature of the equations when i will get to it around several years from now.now for the question of G-d,i have a few questions for you (and for everyone else here)
1)did you hear about the the occam's razor,it is said that entities must not be multiplied beyond necessity.in other words it is said that when you get to a question,especialy for a complex question like G-d's existence the simplest solution is probably the true one,there are many much more simpler solutions than G-d for example,evolution of religion or natural forces.so what do you have about this?how do you simplified G-d? (i know it is sound very lame,i just can't think of better words right now)
--- End quote ---
Occam's razor is not a method of proof, it is a method of tracing back the cause to phenomenon etc. basically it is a "rule of thumb" and pretty effective at that. So anyway it is irrelevant to the question of God, but at i can tell you the way I see things, the simplest explanation is that God created the universe, the rule of nature like gravity etc. and then he let things run on their own. If there is no God to initiate this thing, I have no idea how or why there is something like the universe at all.



--- Quote ---2)how do you explains the obious contradiction between the torah and the new testament,like in the subject of kashrut or the identity of the messiah? very weird to me that G-d with his infinite wisdon would contradicte itself (i am not talking about the quarn on purpose,even when i belived G-d i didn't belive it to be a legitimate revelation but a sick and sadistic book for psychopats).
--- End quote ---
You mix two different issues- whether there is God at all is one, and whether God actually spoke to Moses or to Jesus or to anyone is another. My position is: Yes there is God, did he spoke to Moses and gave us the Torah ? possibly. Did he then manifested himself as Jesus and gave the new testament ?  Of course I don't believe so, I'm a Jew, but I think everyone can agree that if the new testament is real, then so is the Torah, because the NT itself claims so. Hence if there is a contradiction between "old" and "new", then the "new" is wrong for sure.


--- Quote ---3)if G-d is so benevolent then why evil exists? why he permitted the holocaust or the influx of muslims to europe or the murder of great peoples like kahane and goldstein,i personally do not think of terms of good and evil but it seems to me flawed that G-d permit evil to exist.if the trend continue maybe i  would need to consider to pray to satan instead of G-d as i see only evil in this world.
--- End quote ---
I don't understand God and I don't understand nature either. If there is God then maybe he has his hidden way of compensating humans for the suffer they have to endure on earth (like heaven). I can't say for sure that God is benevolent, but it is simpler in my mind to assume that. Obviously God has no need to envy us mortals, so it makes sense that he would be benevolent with us. I guess he don't want to spoil us too much either, for our own good.


--- Quote ---4)and again why in both revelations G-d punish all the people that didn't belived him even when they never heard about the revelations (like the ancient idoll worshippers or the unbaptized according to christianity).again i think it is pretty childish and evil and so it is connected to argument number 3.
--- End quote ---
I don't believe literally in any revelation but again, this has nothing  to do with God. For example- the Quran is a text out of the demented mind of Muhammad. i.e. Muhammad made up the false claim that God spoke to him and dictated the verses of the Quran, while in fact it was just his sick demented mind. If he herd voices, they probably were interenal voices like schizophrenia have sometimes.


--- Quote ---5)again if G-d is so benevolent one should expect he creates all the organism of this world with optimal design,most of the organisms designs is clearly suboptimal and too much fragile.
--- End quote ---
Maybe if you were God you do things differently. But seriously this is not a valid argument. We have things the way God wanted them to be and that's it.


--- Quote ---6)if G-d exists and want beliver why didn't he just force people to worship him? and if he don't want to do a better job in gathering worshippers it is implied that he want atheists to exist in this world therefore i am only fullfilling G-d's will.
--- End quote ---
I don't know, why would God bother with us mortals anyway ? what are we to him ? less than ants are to me I suppose. I can't comprehend the thoughts of God.


--- Quote ---7)who has the burden of proof.since you believe in something that cannot be measured and under controversy and i do not belive in such thing the burden of proof is currently iles upon your shoulders.
--- End quote ---
But there is a good reason to assume God exists even though it is unprovable. It makes things more clear if there is indeed a God who created the universe. And by created I mean broadly- God could also create the principle of evolution in nature, because I don't follow any specific text as to how God actually made things the way they are. So, if you claimed you are agnostic that would be logically accepted, but atheism is really a sort of dogmatic narrow mildness that refuses to acknowledge our inability to know some fundamental things for certain.


--- Quote ---8) G-d need to be at least as complex as the entire universe so logicaly somebody would have need to create him as such thing's by your logic can't evolve naturaly but also this creator need creator and we get a chain of infinite creator.this is very flawed and illogical.
--- End quote ---
No, God is not part of nature and so we as part of nature cannot comprehend something so un-natural. Time is also a natural quantity- which doesn't limit God and doesn't apply to him.


--- Quote ---9)could G-d create a stone he couldn't lift? could he create a man more smarter then him? if he can't he isn't omnipotent and therefore don't exist and if he can he don't beig omnipotent and therefore don't exist,i alway enjoy to see people run in circles trying to create ways around this question.
--- End quote ---
The thing is God is all powerful in regard to any object other than him. Basically the "can God nullify himself" is a semantic contradiction. It's like the sentence: "This sentence is false". I can't tell you if that sentence is true or false (it has something to do with the concept of truth itself and how it needs to be defined); Yet that sentence exists, and so God may exists as well regardless of the stone and he could still squeeze you like a bug ;)


--- Quote ---10) if G-d is so benevolent then why is he sending people to hell most of the times for nothing?i don't think i deserve eternal damnation for beign an atheist for a limited time and it is implying that he is nothing more than a servant of satan,maybe i sould embrace statanism.
--- End quote ---
Again whether there is hell and whether what people tell you of hell is a different issue. Maybe people lied and made up the concept of hell, and maybe God actually revealed this information to someone.


--- Quote ---11)why an omniscient beig with no needs or desire would create the universe? maybe he has some need asnd therefore not a true G-d.
--- End quote ---
I don't think we can understand or comprehend the way God thinks and operate. He is unnatural and we cannot grasp such things that are not within our realm of existence. 


--- Quote ---12)most of the ancient religions proved to be untrue,why should it be differnete with contemporary ones.like stephen f robert said ''I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer G-d than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours.''

--- End quote ---
The religions might all be false, yet God is here nevertheless. You see, man didn't invented God, even though man can invent a religion and then claim that God told him to do that. People lie all time you know... all I am saying is that there can be God, and more than likely there is God, and the fact that many people lie or imagine that God spoke to them and they start a religion is a different issue. I don't claim that I know what God wants from us, what he does, or anything, I just think it makes sense that God is the reason why I am.

Zenith:
To normal atheist:
I'll try to give you some explanations.


--- Quote ---[1)did you hear about the the occam's razor,it is said that entities must not be multiplied beyond necessity.in other words it is said that when you get to a question,especialy for a complex question like G-d's existence the simplest solution is probably the true one,there are many much more simpler solutions than G-d for example,evolution of religion or natural forces.so what do you have about this?how do you simplified G-d? (i know it is sound very lame,i just can't think of better words right now)
--- End quote ---

in part, I agree with you. people DO use to complicate things and make a 'smart' 200 pages book that hardly explains in way too many words a very simple issue, and too many times, in a stupid manner. Yet, "simple is probably true" does not mean "first thing that gets into one's mind is probably true" either.
I've heard some theories of how religions appeard (apart from aliens' contribution). One was that people saw that they died, they feared, they saw thunders, etc. and couldn't explain them, etc. and because of fear they brought sacrifices to what they understood as "gods". However, I found out that people are living more relaxed with the thought that "there is no god" than the thought that they have to please Him/them. And even in antiquity there were atheists, people which saw no problem in saying about thunders, etc. that "this is nature, it has always been like this". One think I observed is that people 'became' gods. that is, great leaders (i.e. pharaohs), etc. were being venerated during their lifetime (maybe the feeling all like, of superiority, and to have people serve him, loyal people), and even after. And that's how we came to have 'gods' that invented, taught the people, etc. and that acted exactly as common human beings, only that they were 'superior in nature'. that's the same way "praying to ancestors" is in the religion that chinese believed (or believe), in orthodoxism and catholicism (saints), etc. and this seems more logical to me. By the way, if one is born far away in the wilderness, with no one around, doesn't it require lot of imagination to put "human beings" behind rain? (that is, gods). Anyway, I never heard a child in my life to invent gods, even for thunders or alike. Or, is it required they would reach... maturity? if they are taught since children of gods, they of course, believe.
- then, if people evolved progressively, shouldn't have been already accustomed to the natural phenomenon when they reached 'reason'? so no fear should have existed. People have no problem in believing that "nothing happens after you die" and all it means is "enjoy life as much as you can as long as you live"... scary enough?
- then, "evolution of religion" seems quite odd to me. if you ask me, I don't think that monotheism is superior to polytheism, if this is what you refere to (if it evolved from polytheism to monotheism). If so, compare Islam and Hinduism. Then, from atheistic perspective, if no god exist, I see no difference beween believeing in 10 gods and believing in only one. Also, if in top there is "atheism", consider that even in antiquity there were atheists, and that people are "educated" into atheism as well. we cannot tell when atheism first appeared, because not all that was thought was written and most of what was written does not exist anymore. as well of the theory of evolution, that all came from one being. There were people that believed that in ancient greece, if I remember right, but we cannot teleport in time to the first man an check all to see which believed it first.
I think that I already wrote too much...


--- Quote ---2)how do you explains the obious contradiction between the torah and the new testament,like in the subject of kashrut or the indentity of the messiah? very weird to me that G-d with his infinite wisdon would contradicte itself (i am not talking about the quarn on purpose,even when i belived G-d i didn't belive it to be a legitimate revelation but a sick and sadistic book for psychopats).
--- End quote ---
first off, the existence of God has nothing to do with any text or belief. I don't know what kashrut is, sory.
And, there is one IMPORTANT thing you should consider: not everything is easy to understand and clear (like muslims say, I think it's from the qur'an "the truth stands clear out of err"). People can have great problems with understanding the text, even if that is clear enough, and mostly because of the traditional understanding of the text or because somebody pointed out in a certain manner, so that it was created an issue for the public (like the creation in genesis, "Let them be as a snail which melts away as it goes along", number pi and the measuring of something round, etc.). So, anything it is, I don't think it is by the saying "the truth stands clear out of err" (in other words, if you don't understand is err, if you understand - however you understand it - is true).


--- Quote ---3)if G-d is so benevolent then why evil exists? why he permitted the holocaust or the influx of muslims to europe or the murder of great peoples like kahane and goldstein,i personally do not think of terms of good and evil but it seems to me flawed that G-d permit evil to exist.if the trend continue maybe i  would need to consider to pray to satan instead of G-d as i see only evil in this world.
--- End quote ---
This is what PEOPLE around told you about God. People even find correct this thinking: "If God exists, no matter what I do, if I swear Him, I mock Him, I rape children, etc. He should act as nothing happend and give me all the things I wish. If He doesn't do so, it means He doesn't exist.". If you want to know how is the God of the Bible, read the Bible. And, by the way, your statement cannot prove that Allah can't exist either. He should not be as we like to or we imagine, in order to exist.


--- Quote ---4)and again why in both revelations G-d punish all the people that didn't belived him even when they never heard about the revelations (like the ancient idoll worshippers or the unbaptized according to christianity).again i think it is pretty childish and evil and so it is connected to argument number 3.
--- End quote ---
You should be more concrete, tell me the exact story.
By the way, I also don't believe God just punishes people for not believing in Him while they could have not heard of Him. I think both the Tanakh and New Testament agree with that, although many christians do not agree with me. Hoever, what you thirst for means a lot, and there are many things that depend on you, no matter where you were born and what teachings you received. Also, ignorance and self-righteousness are bad things. If God doesn't punish one for being an 'unbeliever', He will punish him for not carying to see which is the truth, but enjoying doing all the things he likes (and may be bad) because he says "I don't know the truth, so I'm forgivable". The same with self-righteousness: everybody likes to say "people like me should go to heaven", and that's the excuse for everything.


--- Quote ---5)again if G-d is so benevolent one should expect he creates all the organism of this world with optimal design,most of the organisms designs is clearly suboptimal and too much fragile.
--- End quote ---
1. you should expect this world not to be heaven;
2. expect heaven to be perfect;
3. If Adam and Eve had not fallen, the earth would have not been cursed and fragility would have had no problem because none would have suffered or died (now, I don't speak about grass, because I really can't believe it suffers pain). Weakness is bad only when there is somebody/something that harms.


--- Quote ---6)if G-d exists and want beliver why didn't he just force people to worship him? and if he don't want to do a better job in gathering worshippers it is implied that he want atheists to exist in this world therefore i am only fullfilling G-d's will.
--- End quote ---
As seen from the Bible, God did not intend to create robots or 'zombies' that obey commandments without thinking. it would have been utterly useless: what to do with them? But if people have free will, they can choose how to be, and what to believe as well.


--- Quote ---7)who has the burden of proof.since you believe in something that cannot be measured and under controversy and i do not belive in such thing the burden of proof is currently iles upon your shoulders
--- End quote ---
Asking of evidence is also flawd, because people can believe anything and can call anything "proof". The only possible way for all people to believe in God is, I think, if He would make Himself manifest (visible, etc.) permanently and come with angels everywhere so that whoever does any mistake, would be killed, so that none will doubt anything. Look at the miracles of the qur'an which seem very logical to many, and hear those who say that they do not have any evidence that the holocaust ever existed, that nazi ever killed any jew, etc. And their LOGIC tells them it is so. If there would be a calculation or something that would prove the Bible/Tanakh is right and all that goes with it, how many would have found the 'evidence' satisfacatory?
by the way, people believe what they want to believe, and the 'evidence' belongs to the one which wants to believe it. for the one that doesn't want to believe it, there is no 'evidence'.


--- Quote ---G-d need to be at least as complex as the entire universe so logicaly somebody would have need to create him as such thing's by your logic can't evolve naturaly but also this creator need creator and we get a chain of infinite creator.this is very flawed and illogical.
--- End quote ---
The same problems applies to everything: what caused the big-bang? what gave birth to the laws of the universe? we have the laws of how life can exist, but why is it so? why does the gravity exist? who created it? why is it not ok to sleep with an 8 years old boy? (biologically and psychologically we have explanations, but those themselves are laws of the nature). Just tell me how everything appeared and how the laws appeared. What caused the beginning? the beginning must have been caused by something that was itself caused by something that was caused, etc. so we go nowhere. If you have an image of how the cosmic space should have existed in the "very" beginning, why did it exist? if you believe there was something in the very beginning, why did it exist? So some logic of mine tells me that nothing should have existed ever, yet I cannot understand nothingness either (if you say "in the beginning there was nothing" what do you imagine?) so "God forever existed" seems to me as logic as "what you see around exists". for me, my questions are the same as yours.


--- Quote ---9)could G-d create a stone he couldn't lift? could he create a man more smarter then him? if he can't he isn't omnipotent and therefore don't exist and if he can he don't beig omnipotent and therefore don't exist,i alway enjoy to see people run in circles trying to create ways around this question.
--- End quote ---
Those questions are also - my opinion - misplaced. We invented the word "ominpotent" and we assigned it to God. I don't think God can teleport anybody in past, because I personally think time is just an abstract term we invented. If anybody has other understanding, I believe that God is Almighty, in the limits of logic.


--- Quote ---11)why an omniscient beig with no needs or desire would create the universe? maybe he has some need asnd therefore not a true G-d.
--- End quote ---
First off, you define what God should be. By your logic, you find that things do not work out, but you don't come to deny the logic, but God. If omnisicence, as people define it, exists, then there is no free will (what is the difference between saying "God ordained that leaf 4 millions of years ago to fall today" and "God knew that that leaf would have fallen 4 millions of years ago"?). For muslims, if God doesn't preordain even that before the beginning of the creation, then He is not God (which seems odd to me). They also define God, in my opinion, in a strange way. Our thinking of how God should be does not change reality. And people imagine and define how God should be, but from where do they get the info???


--- Quote ---12)most of the ancient religions proved to be untrue,why should it be differnete with contemporary ones.like stephen f robert said ''I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer G-d than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours.''
--- End quote ---
atheism existed in antiquity as well, so why does the time when it appeared matter?
by the way, if 99% of the population of the earth believes X, it doesn't mean X is true either.

I just hope I will not receive a reply of the same length or bigger ; ) ).

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