Trembling Before G-d - a documentary about gay Jews

[MassuhDGoodName]

Hamantaschen:  "MassuhDGoodName@ It is clear that you haven't watched the film.  We all have read Leviticus.

http://www.hulu.com/watch/76545/trembling-before-g-d

It just so happens I am a Hulu member, and have watched the film.

Judaism is as old as time, and the Jewish People exist today, against all the odds, because of our clinging to Torah.

Of course there have always been homosexuals found among the Jewish People, just as there have always been homosexuals found among all other peoples.

The difference between we Jews and the other nations, is that we have always disavowed any sex outside of the male-female sanctified bond.

True, we don't any longer put them to death when we find them.

But Talmud states that "They shall be put to death" can be interpreted to mean that G-d Himself will in the future extinguish their souls because they can not be elevated to holiness.

Like my post stated, I often have the urge to beat the living crap out of somebody but I do not act upon these urges because I am not purely animal.

If, on the other hand, I if had always acted out my thoughts and impulses, I would have beaten the crap out of a lot of different people, but I also would have been forced to face the consequences of my actions, both legal, and those injurious to my body, which would result from my own inability to control my thoughts and impulses.

That's all!

Want to be homo?

I don't advise it, but it's your life and your choice.

Want to be a Jew?

Then think anything you want, if you have to, but do not act out what you think!

One can not have it both ways and remain a Torah Jew.

Think about it.

[Dr. Dan]

@Rubystars and Dan ben Noach:  Thank you both for watching the video and making mature comments but neither of you answered my core question:  What would you do if one day, one of your grown teenage kids said, "Dad, I'm gay.  It's not a phase or a fad.  It's for real and I've felt this way since I was young.  I've tried and I can't change"? 

Gd forbid...but if that day came and I had to give advice to the parents, I would tell them to love their child just as they usually do and be compassionate and help him or her not sin and live a normal life as much as possible.  I would not encourage homosexual behavior.

and personally, nobody needs to watch a video to make a respond to that..I simply haven't had time to watch yet.

[Rubystars]

@Rubystars and Dan ben Noach:  Thank you both for watching the video and making mature comments but neither of you answered my core question:  What would you do if one day, one of your grown teenage kids said, "Dad, I'm gay.  It's not a phase or a fad.  It's for real and I've felt this way since I was young.  I've tried and I can't change"? 

I don't know exactly what I would do. I would be very upset, but I would still love them and try to help them the best I could. I would not, however, tell them that it's ok to engage in behavior that's stricly forbidden by the Bible.

[JTFenthusiast2]

I never saw this film when it came out and the fact that it was the "in" Art film to see made me not want to see it.  I watched it now for the first time and I am reminded of how grateful I used to be that I was not raised in an orthodox home that would turn their children away, sometimes with such cruelty.  When I see this film now, I am some years older and I see their parents pain, their inability to deal with something they don't know.  No one teaches anyone how to deal with something like this and so everyone falls back onto old favorites like shunning, ignoring, and disowning even when you can tell it causes the parents great pain (as seen in the clip with the 58 year old man who speaks to his 98 year old father on the phone who has nothing but excuses for why he can't meet his son in person).  Everyone here is a victim: the child struggling, the parents who have no idea, no life training that could ever prepare them to deal with something so catastrophic.

[JTFenthusiast2]

Incidently those 'rabbis' bellowing out at passers-by in the beginning of the film are none other than Neturei Karta and their hideous Jew hating spokesperson, Rabbi Joel Weiss Yimach Schemo Vzithro

[muman613]

Imagine the parents pain when they learn that the son that they invested so much time and money into getting into a good college turns into a drug addict and drops out? What if this son then gets involved with a crowd which is evil, and he stoops to theft and prostitution? How should that parent react?

This is one reason I view this as a matter of doing what is right, even if you want to do wrong. Drug addiction is a very difficult thing to stop. I know from personal experience...

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

I feel compassion for people struggling with this and I hope that with G-d's help they can learn to control their behavior and not act on it.

I agree.

Btw Hamantaschen, since I did see the movie a while back (can't remember if I saw all of it, but at least most of it), and you are looking for comments on the movie, I will say that the man who went through shock therapy in order to try to remove his attraction to men was a very moving story and I felt bad for him.   When a person goes through all that, what is left for him?   I do feel that the people he has dealt with were not really against only the sin, it seems they were against him as a person, and from what I remember they threw him out of the shul... As one rabbi in the film comments, something which really stood out to me in the whole film, if you get rid of all the sinners, the rabbi will have no shul left, there'll be no one there.   So it's not really fair that these type of people get singled out, but I imagine the response is much different depending on where the person ends up (ie in a more modern place  or simply a more tolerant haredi place etc).  They chose in this film for better or worse, to highlight a case where a person was shunned.

[Ben m]

we need to ban homo sexuality completely.it is against jewish and white spirit.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

There are certainly secular parents who shun children, especially in cases where the child lives the "gay lifestyle."  So do not say that "shunning children" is limited to "orthodox families."

And don't give me this garbage about Orthodox community not teaching parents how to deal with these issues or "ignorance" in the orthodox community etc...   (I am referring to some comments here, not to hamantaschen).   Because no community teaches anyone how to deal with this issue and what exactly is there to teach?  Give me a break.     People react as they see fit.   The only difference there might be is that in secular society, now in the school systems we are brainwashed to "accept" gayness and think that it's ok, so now secular parents may be more inclined NOT to shun their gay kids as opposed to before.  However, it's still going to happen if they have strong feelings on the subject and it certainly does.   It's just now considered "bigoted" by the PC propaganda.

Personally I do not know how to deal with it if a child has it G-d forbid, Lo Alenu, but given that the percentages are well-known as to how many men will develop attraction to men and how many women will develop attraction to women, and it is also firmly established by the statistics that in large families with multiple male children, the later born male children have a much greater likelihood to develop same sex attraction, from what I remember the 4th or 5th or 6th male child have higher risks (it seems to be associated with the testosterone levels supplied to the fetus and the differing levels with each subsequent pregnancy-with-male-child), that there should be brainstorming and ideas for how to create a new role in society for such people when they "come out" with their inner problem.   If they cannot have a loving relationship with a female there needs to be some supplementary role for such a person in society, however their sexual desires are still forbidden to carry out, and these people will have to refrain from sexual activity, as hard as that may sound.  Perhaps a fulfilling societal role and loving familial relationships can minimize the need for satisfying their sexual urges.     It is a complicated subject because on the one hand, gay sex is an abomination, but on the other hand G-d gave them the urges for it as well.   So we have to be sensitive to people even while we strongly assert that these urges are forbidden to fulfill.   

BTW, this phenomenon of subsequent male pregnancies causing a higher risk for giving birth to a boy who will develop same sex attraction was NOT found with females.  So the 10th female born to the same mother, statistically has no added risk regarding this.

Certainly though to adopt the flamboyant "gay lifestyle" as created in modern society (think sanfrancisco and what you think of when you hear the word "queer") is a very evil way of expression for people with these desires.   We need to develop an alternative IMO.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

we need to ban homo sexuality completely.it is against jewish and white spirit.

White spirit?  What would that be exactly?

Ben, I'm interested to know how you define white spirit, and do you really think that other white nationalists accept your points of view and the inventions of some "dark-skinned Jew" on the subject?

[Ben m]

we need to ban homo sexuality completely.it is against jewish and white spirit.

White spirit?  What would that be exactly?

Ben, I'm interested to know how you define white spirit, and do you really think that other white nationalists accept your points of view and the inventions of some "dark-skinned Jew" on the subject?

white spirit is christianity and greco-roam value.

[muman613]

we need to ban homo sexuality completely.it is against jewish and white spirit.

White spirit?  What would that be exactly?

Ben, I'm interested to know how you define white spirit, and do you really think that other white nationalists accept your points of view and the inventions of some "dark-skinned Jew" on the subject?

white spirit is christianity and greco-roam value.

Ben,

Learn a little history... Both Greece and Rome had rampant Homosexual activity... As a matter of fact it was a sign of a high society to have multiple homosexual relationships with young men...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality_in_ancient_Rome

Homosexuality in ancient Rome features in many literary works, poems, graffiti and comments on the sexual predilections of single emperors. Graphic representations are, on the other hand, rarer in ancient Rome than in classical Greece. Attitudes toward homosexuality changed over the time and from context to context, ranging from strong condemnation to quite open acceptance. Indeed, it was also purported to be one of the cultural facts of certain provinces.

In discussing such attitudes, it is fundamental to recall that the term homosexuality is entirely problematic for the ancient world since there is no single word in either Latin or ancient Greek with the same meaning as the modern concept of homosexuality. Although it again and again becomes apparent that bisexuality was more common, even the ancient authors agree that there were ancient Roman men who had sexual relations exclusively with men.

...
Mid and late Republic

As Greek attitudes gradually became accepted in Rome during the late Republic and early Empire, however, a new form of same-sex relations emerged that was quite different from homosexuality in ancient Greece, but owed much to it. As men, particularly the pater familias, wielded complete authority in Roman society, the Roman experience of same-sex relations is often characterized by master/slave-style interactions. Slaves still were considered legitimate sexual partners, often if not always regardless of their wishes. In short, an adult Roman citizen male could acceptably penetrate (whether a male or a female) but not be penetrated - catamite was commonly used as a slander.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

we need to ban homo sexuality completely.it is against jewish and white spirit.

White spirit?  What would that be exactly?

Ben, I'm interested to know how you define white spirit, and do you really think that other white nationalists accept your points of view and the inventions of some "dark-skinned Jew" on the subject?

white spirit is christianity and greco-roam value.

Obviously you never read "The Symposium"

[Ben m]

we need to ban homo sexuality completely.it is against jewish and white spirit.

White spirit?  What would that be exactly?

Ben, I'm interested to know how you define white spirit, and do you really think that other white nationalists accept your points of view and the inventions of some "dark-skinned Jew" on the subject?

white spirit is christianity and greco-roam value.

Obviously you never read "The Symposium"

so please tell me about the book.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

we need to ban homo sexuality completely.it is against jewish and white spirit.

White spirit?  What would that be exactly?

Ben, I'm interested to know how you define white spirit, and do you really think that other white nationalists accept your points of view and the inventions of some "dark-skinned Jew" on the subject?

white spirit is christianity and greco-roam value.

Obviously you never read "The Symposium"

so please tell me about the book.

Well, let's see.  Overall, it is about "love" as seen by the ancient greeks.   It explains how the path to wisdom for a young boy is to have sex with a man in order to acquire virtue.   Likewise, the Symposium teaches that the man "imparts knowledge" by having sex with a young boy.  One of the participants expresses his obsession with "beautiful young boys."   This work was written by Plato and expresses the Greek cultural norms and philosophy of the day.

[Ben m]

we need to ban homo sexuality completely.it is against jewish and white spirit.

White spirit?  What would that be exactly?

Ben, I'm interested to know how you define white spirit, and do you really think that other white nationalists accept your points of view and the inventions of some "dark-skinned Jew" on the subject?

white spirit is christianity and greco-roam value.

Obviously you never read "The Symposium"

so please tell me about the book.

Well, let's see.  Overall, it is about "love" as seen by the ancient greeks.   It explains how the path to wisdom for a young boy is to have sex with a man in order to acquire virtue.   Likewise, the Symposium teaches that the man "imparts knowledge" by having sex with a young boy.  One of the participants expresses his obsession with "beautiful young boys."   This work was written by Plato and expresses the Greek cultural norms and philosophy of the day.

oh my god.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Ben,

This is just another proof that you should stop chasing after foreign identities and cultures (which you really know nothing about), and instead embrace your real identity - the only suitable identity for a Jew - the Jewish culture which is encapsulated in the Torah and expressed in our practices, writings and history (also which you apparently know nothing about, but this is at least worthwhile for you to seek out and learn about - you'd be remiss not to).

[Spiraling Leopard]

There are simple muscle-contractions that help steer the sexual energy upwards, clearing away unnatural pervertedness, help living a celebates life by diminishing sexual desires, and rather than throwing the energy away at ejaculation, it's energy will be put into use to feed the body.
Using this measurable bio-energy in the right way may even be a cure for homophilia since it normalizes ones sexuality.
I am a 'seed-preserver' myself and I know some great simple physical exercises that help me a lot. I even do them walking outside without anybody noticing.

I have to say however that sometimes I see a homo that simply was born a homo. Some hetero's can be freaks, but some homo's are so sickingly perverted I think it's genetic; say perez hilton times 10.
I think those rare cases are uncurable. But you also have normal fags like the ones from Christian the Lion.

[JTFenthusiast2]

It's interesting though that even amongst the Greeks, having affairs with young men was entirely normal, but this was only true as long as the adult male had heterosexual relations with women.  To be a Kinsey 6 was seen as deviant.  It was also deviant for the adult male to enjoy being penetrated or to  perform oral sex on the younger male.  The younger male was in essence a substitute female. 

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

It's interesting though that even amongst the Greeks, having affairs with young men was entirely normal, but this was only true as long as the adult male had heterosexual relations with women.  To be a Kinsey 6 was seen as deviant.  It was also deviant for the adult male to enjoy being penetrated or to  perform oral sex on the younger male.  The younger male was in essence a substitute female. 

That doesn't make it any less gay.

Or any less perverse for that matter.

[Ari Ben-Canaan]

The myth of homosexuality being admired in Greece is just that, a myth.  Yes homosexuality occurred there, but it was not praiseworthy, in fact it was considered an insult to label someone as homosexual.

http://www.macedoniaontheweb.com/

This website is down now, but it should be back up [I will post when it is active again].  I post there.  The majority of people on this board speak and read Greek and have debunked for all to read what "scholars" put forth as truth about the acceptance/promotion of homosexuality.  The lies spread about Greece are just one more way the Liberal community tries to promote homosexuality in lieu of true history.

This forum, which I hope goes back online soon, is quite a great forum for all things Greek, and true Macedonian [not western-Bulgaria slavic modern Macedonia].  One can learn a lot about Alexander the Great here [as well as debunking his homosexual myths].

--------

I watched this "Trembling" movie and was not persuaded, although I do feel sorrow for what these people go through.  I take no joy in watching people suffer.  I see no convincing scientific reason to classify homosexuality/bisexuality/transsexuality as anything but a mental illness or state of mind [or as God put it, "an abomination"].  It is unfortunate for many that the Liberals and their media wish to sanitize and promote these types of lifestyles, it does a great disservice to those who suffer from these vices.  It is unfortunate the Liberal media portrays many deviant lifestyles as acceptable besides those mentioned above, it is fairly safe to say if the Liberal media advocates something it is highly questionable and most likely immoral.

I once heard Rabbi Kahane say something about like this, "God did not write a book, pass it out to the Jewish people, and then ask what people thought of it.".

If I had a son who believed he was a homosexual, God forbid, I am sure I would still love him, but I would very much disagree with his actions.  I would do what I could to help him understand the truth of the matter, hopefully I would have a good Rabbi to help me with this task.  I would ask God for help.  Certain lines would be drawn on what would happen socially, but that would be more dependent on his behavior rather than my own predispositions.  God forbid indeed.

If I had a son who was involved with a porn star, God forbid, I would have similar feelings.

I believe Muman said something about rebuking/pushing a person with their left hand, but holding on to them with their right.  I would not seek the destruction of my family.  If one pushes another with both hands a person is lost.

Many, if not all people, struggle with mitzvoth.  

I have to remind myself to keep my eyes off of every attractive woman I see at times [I am getting better at this with age].  

Sometimes I get impatient about waiting the time after eating meat to consume a milk product.  I even tell myself, "what difference does it make, I ate hours ago, who would know?"[WHO indeed!].  

I used to eat treif, sometimes I hunger for shrimp, or crab nlegs, or lobster, or clam chowder, I never succumb to these desires but my brain knows these things taste good to me and on its own it tells me I am hungry for them sometimes even though I don't want to be.

I also have tattoos from when I was younger which I may never be able to get rid of to remind me multiple times daily of transgressions [I live in hot climate; how can I wear shorts or a t-shirt and my beloved kippah if I have tattoos on my legs and arm?  What if another Jew saw my tattoos and kippah and decided for themselves it was OK for them to get a tattoo?  Or a non-Jew scoffs, "the Jews no longer keep their mitzvah".  Often times I suffer in the heat and think about not making more bad decisions].

I used to smoke pot all day every day for years.  [Now my Dad wants to school and employ me as an addiction counselor to help others.]

If my parents had ever stopped being my parents and shut me out, or started to condone behavior where I was hurting myself, I would not be where I am today.  I can only hope to be as good of a parent as my parents have been to me.

[JTFenthusiast2]

Ariel,

It isnt a myth about same-sex relations and it's relative acceptance.  One only need to go to a musuem and look at any section on Greek art.

[muman613]

Ariel,

It isnt a myth about same-sex relations and it's relative acceptance.  One only need to go to a musuem and look at any section on Greek art.

I agree...

Look at this greek artwork and tell me it is not homo:



http://www.carnaval.com/orpheus/orpheus.htm

Ovid wrote no poems to boys himself but, like his fellow-poets, he assumes the universality of bisexuality. At the beginning of his Loves, he laments that he has "no boy to sing of" or "long-haired girl," these being equally acceptable subjects for the erotic poet.

Not all the homoerotic stories of the Metamorphosis are in book ten. Book three tells the tale of Narcissus. In Ovid's version, Narcissus is loved by girls and boys, but it is specifically a boy he scorns who sets the curse on him; he falls fatally in love with another "lovely boy" when he sees his image reflected in a pool.

Lesbianism is a theme rarely treated in Latin literature, but one story in Ovid's book nine describes the love of two girls. But though Ovid regards the love of boys as commonplace, love between females is unthinkable in his world. Ovid represents Iphis as shocked and horrified when she discovers her feelings; a benevolent goddess resolves the impasse by changing her into a boy.

[Rubystars]

I don't really blame the modern Greeks for wanting to deny that history! lol

[JTFenthusiast2]

Ariel,

That is a nice point you made about not being able to wear shorts in hot weather because of your tattoos, as well as the message it might send to a younger person.  I hope perhaps at some  point int he future you can have laser resurfacing to remove the tattoos