Trembling Before G-d - a documentary about gay Jews

[Ulli]

בס''ד

I watched a few minutes of this atrocious film and couldn't stand it any more. The purpose of this film is to condemn Torah Judaism for opposing the destructive homosexual lifestyle.

Any film on homosexuality should have only one objective: to help homosexuals overcome this very serious challenge that they have. If a film does not do that, the film is evil. And if a film actually encourages homosexuals to feel that they can continue to live a self-destructive existence, then such a film is a crime.

Hamantaschen, I love my fellow Jews and I love righteous Gentiles. If you truly love someone, you don't tell them it's acceptable to be a drug addict and then give them more drugs, or it's acceptable to be an alcoholic, or it's acceptable to rebel against the laws of G-d.

Active homosexuals will not have a place in the next world. They will lose eternal life. For what? For an insane lifestyle that only brings misery and death?

This film is a pack of lies. Only Torah Judaism represents the truth. Someday you will see that the Torah is completely true and that those who go against it will regret their dreadful mistake. It is my duty as a Jew to do my best to spread that message to my brothers and sisters whom I love with all my heart.

Chaim, I think you made a very important point here. If G-d prohibits something, the forbidden act is not only affecting negativly our eternal life, but in every case our life in this world too. So the sin leads usually to a double death.

It would be cruel to advise anybody to sin. In fact the opposite of love.

[Ari Ben-Canaan]

If you truly love someone, you don't tell them it's acceptable to be a drug addict and then give them more drugs, or it's acceptable to be an alcoholic, or it's acceptable to rebel against the laws of G-d.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Enough of this "Greek Homo" drek; you all sound like Sharpton.  I only want to hear from people who watched the film and have a response to it!!

I am one of those people, and you're hearing from me in this thread.    Is there something particular you are waiting to hear, but no one is saying it?   There have been many comments here that you haven't responded to.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

All of these "apologetics" for Greek culture are just that:  Phony academicians inventing historical revisions to promote their own personal homosexual agendas. 

Exactly.

Here are some actual FACTS:  In ancient Greece, it was believed by all that a man's "character" was transmitted through his semen.  When a young upper class Greek boy reached the age of twelve, they celebrated what was their equivalent of a "coming of age" ceremoney, at which the parents were overjoyed to take their son to a philosopher teacher such as Plato or Aristotle, and drop him off to be the teacher's personal servant, student, and "butt boy" for a duration of time.  The Greek parents were overjoyed, believing that having an esteemed old man philosopher sodomize their son every day and ejaculate inside him transferred to their son the esteemed "character" of the boy's teacher.
Women at their time were considered something like a sex toy with the sole purpose of getting pregnant and bearing a child.  Outside that relationship with women, men were mostly homosexual with each other.  "Love" was considered something homosexual between men and not something that applied to a relationship with a woman.  Men would seduce women, dump them, and nine months later the woman would bear a child.  Ancient Greeks, when meeting children or adults, asked "Who is your mother?" because it was considered normal and proper that a woman have any number of children by any number of men, most of the time unsure as to which man got them pregnant. 

Interesting.  Doesn't surprise me at all.  What are some sources for this information?

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Are you seriously trying to defend homosexual civilizations, Ben?

Gee... does this have anything to do with why you thought my pictures were so gross?

No need to rub his face in it.  I'm sure Ben is still dealing with the shock of what he's learned in this thread.   A humbling experience like that is what can cause someone to reexamine baseless ideas they've adopted.  Adding insult and/or taunting will not speed that process and probably impedes it.

[Ben m]

Are you seriously trying to defend homosexual civilizations, Ben?

Gee... does this have anything to do with why you thought my pictures were so gross?

No need to rub his face in it.  I'm sure Ben is still dealing with the shock of what he's learned in this thread.   A humbling experience like that is what can cause someone to reexamine baseless ideas they've adopted.  Adding insult and/or taunting will not speed that process and probably impedes it.

am no i think you didn't understand her.he think i tried to defend homosexuality in my original post.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Kahane  was right,

You misinterpreted what I wrote, I said for them it was normative, not for us

Furthermore, when you say:
 "And don't give me this garbage about Orthodox community not teaching parents how to deal with these issues or "ignorance" in the orthodox community etc...   (I am referring to some comments here, not to hamantaschen).   Because no community teaches anyone how to deal with this issue and what exactly is there to teach?  Give me a break.     People react as they see fit.   The only difference there might be is that in secular society, now in the school systems we are brainwashed to "accept" gayness and think that it's ok, so now secular parents may be more inclined NOT to shun their gay kids as opposed to before.  However, it's still going to happen if they have strong feelings on the subject and it certainly does.   It's just now considered "bigoted" by the PC propaganda."

You need to not be so defensive and haughty in your comments here.  It isn't garbage, it's a fact for some described in the movie.  Orthodox Jews aren't perfect; no one is. 

Actually, you missed the point of what I said.   First off, I do not think Orthodox Jews are perfect nor did I ever suggest that.   I do think that with all the problems and issues in the Orthodox community, like any community has issues, to single this out as an "orthodox-specific" problem that damages the community in light of actually serious issues that exist, is Ridiculous.  Totally absurd.    Why?   For a very simple reason that I already stated in my post.   NO community is "taught how to deal with this issue."    My parents were never given classes about "what to do if your kid is gay."      I was never instructed by the JCC about how to interact with a gay family member.    Etc etc.    No "community" teaches any such thing.    Parents on an individual level react as they see fit and utilize counseling or other avenues of advice for how to deal with this problem once it arises, lo alenu.    The only difference MIGHT be that in secular society we have been brainwashed in recent years to think that "gay is ok."   So there may be less resistance among secular parents than there was in the past.   However, there are certainly secular parents who disown gay children like the orthodox scenario in this film.    That is not specific to Orthodoxy or Judaism.   And there are certainly secular parents who even while they "tolerate" their gay kid, they deep down are very hurt and resent the fact that they won't have grandchildren etc.    

What kind of loving father refuses to see his son for over 20 years?

I don't know.   Are you saying that the Orthodox community has no loving fathers?   Or has a plethora of fathers who don't love?    Aside from making an incoherent point like that, what is the point of this question?

 You think that's part of being a good Jew?  You don't help your children become moral people by abandoning them.  Lastly, don't rant at me because you don't like my opinion over facts depicted in the film  

Did I say that that was part of being a good Jew?   No.   Silly question.  I don't understand why "I" am brought into this.   I'm addressing the general issues.   I never gave personal stamp of approval to anything, nor did I even comment about specific people in the movie except the one guy who got shock therapy  ----  Did you read my comment about him and how I feel about people who rejected him as a person?

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

During their time these philosophers were only esteemed by a minority. 

That's not true.  Their popular culture was built on the notions of these people.   And that was the appeal to Jews.   Why do you think there was an entire subpopulation of "Hellenized" Jews which threatened the entire foundation of Judaism and produced a plethora of Jewish traitors whom the Maccabees put into their place?   Hellenism was a popular movement.

To say that Greek philosophy was an underground unpopular curiosity does not fit with history.

[Rubystars]

This thread reminds me of a really hilarious video I saw a long time ago. This guy is NOT a Christian, he's a comedian trying to make fun of Christians. Still, his video made me laugh:

[JTFenthusiast2]

Chaim,

I think you should have tried to watch the whole film.  The people in this film do not have the willpower to do what you are asking and there should be an answer for them besides the fact that they are going to hell.  Even the Chabad rabbi from 770 seemed to think that this answer was more complex. 

Muman,

Thank you for your clarification on that point.

Kahane was right.

I dont know why you are confused about why "you" are bing brought into this, when "you" attacked me and several other posters on this board in your initial comments

[JTFenthusiast2]

Lastly, at least the gay Jews in this film are pro-Israel and not self-hating kikes who have forgone every aspect of their Jewish existence.  At least they struggle, some even with contemplation of suicide, to maintain  their Torah Judaism.  I would guess that most Jews in this situation fail this test--miserably. 

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

בס''ד

I watched a few minutes of this atrocious film and couldn't stand it any more. The purpose of this film is to condemn Torah Judaism for opposing the destructive homosexual lifestyle.

Any film on homosexuality should have only one objective: to help homosexuals overcome this very serious challenge that they have. If a film does not do that, the film is evil. And if a film actually encourages homosexuals to feel that they can continue to live a self-destructive existence, then such a film is a crime.

Hamantaschen, I love my fellow Jews and I love righteous Gentiles. If you truly love someone, you don't tell them it's acceptable to be a drug addict and then give them more drugs, or it's acceptable to be an alcoholic, or it's acceptable to rebel against the laws of G-d.

Active homosexuals will not have a place in the next world. They will lose eternal life. For what? For an insane lifestyle that only brings misery and death?

This film is a pack of lies. Only Torah Judaism represents the truth. Someday you will see that the Torah is completely true and that those who go against it will regret their dreadful mistake. It is my duty as a Jew to do my best to spread that message to my brothers and sisters whom I love with all my heart.

[MassuhDGoodName]

It makes me terribly sad to say it, but National Geographic, once esteemed as a great American magazine, is the host of Hulu.com, and is today little more than a front serving to promote Marxist Internationalist propaganda and instill the gay agenda in young children and teenagers.

In other words ... a mainstream American media outlet.

[JTFenthusiast2]

It makes me terribly sad to say it, but National Geographic, once esteemed as a great American magazine, is the host of Hulu.com, and is today little more than a front serving to promote Marxist Internationalist propaganda and instill the gay agenda in young children and teenagers.

In other words ... a mainstream American media outlet.

Massa,


First of all your name cracks me up.  and secondly..your name cracks me up

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

no,but i think yu have a serious problems with undersatnding simple sentneces.show me one proof that i defended homosexuality.

You went on and on about how great Greco-Roman culture was, and you said that my pictures were gross.

[Ben m]

no,but i think yu have a serious problems with undersatnding simple sentneces.show me one proof that i defended homosexuality.

You went on and on about how great Greco-Roman culture was, and you said that my pictures were gross.

yes but i said that i oppose homsexuality.and yes you pictures were gross and i don't think i had to be homosexual to think that.

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

and yes you pictures were gross and i don't think i had to be homosexual to think that.

I should put them up to a poll and ask the male JTFers if they also found the pictures gross. What do you think they would say?

[JTFenthusiast2]

For one of the first times, I agree with Ben here.   You can be homosexual and appreciate female beauty, even enjoy looking at beautiful women.  You can also be a misogynist gay turd.  

When I lived in NYC, you couldn't help but notice the many beautiful women, everywhere.  Different types: soft and feminine or athletic and still very feminine, older women, girls in their late teens who were just becoming women.  Where I live now, I don't notice that so much because men and women here all pretty much look the same, and there is not this Zeitgest for the maintenance of health or physical beauty in either men or women.  People here are more complacent about maintaining their physical selves.  I am in my 30s and I am always surprised at how many men my age allow themselves to get obese.  There seems to be a uniform kind of pot belly that guys allow themselves to get here that is unhealthy.  If these guys don't want to exercise, they should drink less beer and eat less.

[MassuhDGoodName]

Why don't they quit complaining, and do like many of the greatest and most famous theatrical actors and actresses used to do?

It was an open secret that homosexual male actors would enter into public marriages with their counterpart lesbian female actresses, cohabit as man and wife, and sometimes even have children together.

They protected each other from the public's curiosity, and supported each other as best friends.

Each knew the other sought intimacy outside their "relationship" but their arrangement provided them both privacy, security, and acceptability by the public and fans.

Furthermore, it actually enabled both parties to procreate (which is a mitzvah) and pass on their genetic inheritance to the next generation.

Imperfect? -- Absolutely.

Living a "lie"? -- More or less true, but at least legally married, functioning in public as a married couple, and in my opinion that is better than a 100% full time homosexual lifestyle.

Many of the children from these marriages are as normal as anyone else, and feel that their parents were loving and wonderful to them  -- if Daddy or Mommy left alone for a day or two it wasn't suspect, because such a lifestyle is expected from professional show business people.

People who are afflicted with these attractions know that they're not normal, so why shouldn't they at the very least enter into marriage with a counterpart who understands them and put forth a "respectable" public image?

These Orthodox Jewish men would be no less a sinner in finding themselves a frum dyke with the same issues, marrying, bearing children, and living publicly like man and wife.  Their families would at least be able to face their communities and claim that their children were married with families.

Me? ... I'll leave the "burning in Hell' bit to be worked out between the homosexuals and Ha'Shem, and mind my own business when I see the lovely couple out together.

I remember my shock and disillusionment when being informed just two years ago, that a real "macho" actor, Gary Cooper, loved by America and considered a real tough guy, was one of Hollywood's most flaming fags off screen.

My point being made by mentioning this?  --  What I never knew was just fine just so long as I admired the man's work and screen persona and considered his private life none of my affair.

Did I hear someone mention the married couple Robert Preston and Mary Martin?

No?

Must have just been the wind.



  

[JTFenthusiast2]

I didn't know Gary Cooper was gay.  Massa, can I call you Massa? LOL 


Massa,
You may be right about this more respectable alternative, but the thing is if it worked, then why don't we hear of more people doing it?  I was always surprised at how some gay people would walk down the street hand in hand as if this was normal.  I personally never felt normal doing this and as a result never did.  I always assumed it was because I was never with the right person, but still you see these public displays of affection all the time and it never ceases to amaze me.  I had one lesbian friend whom I loved a great deal and who was prob 25 years my senior that she preferred to "hide her affliction."  And the sad thing is that she was such a fantastic person, that I felt sorry for her, but I do know in retrospect what she meant.

[Ben m]

and yes you pictures were gross and i don't think i had to be homosexual to think that.

I should put them up to a poll and ask the male JTFers if they also found the pictures gross. What do you think they would say?

i think you should post this poll and lets see for ourselves.

[JTFenthusiast2]

Show us da money lol

[MassuhDGoodName]

JTFenthusiast2:  "if it worked, then why don't we hear of more people doing it? "

The reason it's no longer being done is because of the "Gay Rights Movement".

Because homosexuals recently decided to become militant and "demand" their "full equality" to do and act in any way they wanted, they soon began "outing" each other in attacks of personal revenge.   Then they began "outing" public figures whenever they could humiliate them, in the same sense that Negroes try to humiliate others of their race by calling them "Uncle Toms" or "House Negro".

As the Chinese once said, "Be careful what you wish for!"
Within this scenario we see the homosexuals have gotten all they wanted and more:
Now they put on public spectacles, and threaten and intimidate anyone who finds their actions offensive, all while claiming that they are "normal" like everyone else.  Of course, if such were true, then why would they be going to such extremes of exhibitionism to "prove" it?

There's another old saying:  "The more things change, the more they stay the same".

I have no doubts that eventually we will see them face the ugliness of reality and go back to the traditional "show marriage".

*Americans and others were literally horrified to learn that Rock Hudson, matinee idol, Mr. Tall Dark and Handsome, usually seen in the company of Elizabeth Taylor and other beautiful women, had all along been a homosexual living a double life.  His management and studios had long ago arranged a publicly heralded marriage with his attractive office secretary as a "show marriage".  The public accepted it and never questioned it.  Only show business intimates knew his secret.  AIDS was the only reason he was forced to "confess" before the public what is real private life had been all along.  With my parents' generation an oft heard quip made by women in joking about a man who acted like a real "ladies man" or "stud" was "Just who the hell does he think he is , anyway, Rock Hudson?

I believe it would be better for all concerned if everyone kept their own business and personal lives private.  We've become a sexually demented society today.  There's no sense of "public decency" anymore.  Torah states what is right and wrong.  It is not for me to be Ha'Shem and destroy the soul of another.  I recognize aberrant behavior when I see it, but if I don't see it then I don't know that it exists.  Simple.  Everybody should just get smart and get out of everyone else's face!

[muman613]

Here Here Massah..

Judaism gives great merit to those who are able to control their evil inclinations. It is also important to follow the sexual purity laws and to dress modestly. Judaism stands against flagrant exhibitionism and sexual perversions.

[Ulli]

Here Here Massah..

Judaism gives great merit to those who are able to control their evil inclinations. It is also important to follow the sexual purity laws and to dress modestly. Judaism stands against flagrant exhibitionism and sexual perversions.

On your own this is nearly mission impossible. But if you pray to G-d and beg Him to help you, there is a way. Even for addicted people.