Haredi idealism: keep Ashkenaz & Sefard education separate

[Ari Ben-Canaan]

I am not the most savvy person I know when it comes to inter-Jew relationships inside of Israel...  but I sometimes wonder if many of the Haredim are reluctant to blend in with non-Haredim or support a secular government is because of monsters like David Green ["ben gurion"] would crush the living Judaism out of them the first chance they got.  I imagine serving in an army run by Bolsheviks for a country ruled by Bolsheviks may make some Torah Jews quite nervous.  I don't quite understand why many Haredi choose to not work in science fields, or other fields which seem like they would be fairly inoffensive, perhaps the legacy of athiest monsters like David Green, and the Sepharic baby thieves, or the Yemeni peyos butchers, has turned them off to working in a way which would assist a Bolshevik state.  It is a mystery to me, I can only guess.

[MassuhDGoodName]

I had always thought that the Haredim customs of the men not working but only studying Torah was something akin to the concept in Buddhism wherein a Buddhist monk is expected to be a wandering mendicant depending on his community for supplication and sustenance.  Living as a beggar literally allows one to devote their entire being to spiritual study and teaching.  Those with jobs and positions of power and affluence within any community are compromised and therefore unable to act independently.  They do not enjoy the option of holding steadfast to Torah or nationalistic ideology, but rather end up like Netanyahu and others who are no longer their own man, and by implication can no longer serve and live only for Ha'Shem.

[FreedomFighter08]

The only Haredi I personally know are the disgusting Brooklyn anti Zionist Haredis. My cousin returned from a trip to Israel and told me that all the soldiers that she met had bad things to say about Haredim because they treat the soldiers like dirt just because they may be tattooed, modern, and secular and because the Haredim don't serve in the military.

Plus wearing a black hat and peyotes is not Judaism. Nowhere in the Torah does it say to wear a black hat and peyotes.

Of course there may be some good Haredi Jews but most Haredis are unemployed. I don't understand why Israel makes exceptions for them. The Arabs should leave, the Leftists should perform a national service and pledge loyalty to Israel or leave, and the ultra orthodox Jews should perform a nation service and pledge loyalty to Israel or leave. I don't understand why a Secular society like Israel bows down to the ultra religious

[muman613]

The only Haredi I personally know are the disgusting Brooklyn anti Zionist Haredis. My cousin returned from a trip to Israel and told me that all the soldiers that she met had bad things to say about Haredim because they treat the soldiers like dirt just because they may be tattooed, modern, and secular and because the Haredim don't serve in the military.

Plus wearing a black hat and peyotes is not Judaism. Nowhere in the Torah does it say to wear a black hat and peyotes.

Of course there may be some good Haredi Jews but most Haredis are unemployed. I don't understand why Israel makes exceptions for them. The Arabs should leave, the Leftists should perform a national service and pledge loyalty to Israel or leave, and the ultra orthodox Jews should perform a nation service and pledge loyalty to Israel or leave. I don't understand why a Secular society like Israel bows down to the ultra religious

Umm, the Torah does say that a Jew must not shave the corners of the head... This is called Peyos... Yes, the Torah does say a Jew should grow his Peyos...

http://ohr.edu/ask_db/ask_main.php/5/Q1/

Dear Rabbi,

I've always been fascinated by the dress of Hassidic Jews and wondered why it is that the men grow long sidelocks?

signed,

Curious in College Park

Dear Curious,

Let us approach this question in two parts, briefly.

First of all, the Torah commandment is not only for Hassidim, but intended for every Jewish male. The Torah teaches:

"Do not cut off the hair on the sides of your head..."

Vayikra 19:27.

A Jewish male must leave sideburns (peyot) down to the joints of the jaw that are opposite the ear, approximately a third of the way down the ear.

Secondly, the custom to wear _long_ peyot is mentioned in the Talmudic commentary of Tosefot (compiled in Touques, France, approx. 1300 C.E. :

"One has to be exceedingly careful not to remove his Peyot even with a scissors because they are like a razor; therefore the accepted custom has been to leave long peyot on children when they have their first haircut."

(Nazir 41b)

Rabbi Samson Raphael Hirsch in his commentary on the Torah suggests that peyot form a symbolic separation between the front part of the brain and the rear part. The front part is the intellectual, the rear part is the more physical, the more sensual. The wearer of peyot is thus making a statement that he is aware of both facets of his mind, and intends to keep them to their appointed tasks.

The previous answer first appeared on soc.culture.jewish, before the ASK THE RABBI list began. When it did, Howard at Mt. Holyoke wrote to us asking:

If the Torah commands that men (I assume there's another passage somewhere that makes this commandment refer only to males) "not cut off their hair on the sides of [their] heads," then why are the sideburns cut off "approximately a third of the way down the ear?" Either we are commanded to not cut the hair, or we are commanded to let it grow to a certain length.

Where did the length interpretation come from?

Good question!

The length interpretation is based on the word "peyot", which means "corners", referring to the corners of the head. See Rashi on the verse in Vayikra 19:27; Rashi also gives a lengthy description (sorry!) of the locations of the "corners", and why they are called "corners".

The reader in Mt. Holyoke is correct in his assumption that only MEN are obligated to wear peyot. This is further explained in the Gemara in Kiddushin 35b.

And it is a Jewish custom to cover the head. And the Hat is an acceptable head cover...

And get this clear... If not for religious Jews there would be no reason for Jews to be in Eretz Yisroel... The only reason we are there is so that we can fufill the mission of the Jewish nation. I support the religious over the secular any day.

I would rebuke any Israeli wearing a tatoo in public because it is a violation of Torah... You must not be very well versed in our beautiful heritage, our Torah, because you seem to mock it.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

but the haredim are not religious zionists, they are worthless parasites.  

And you are a nazi. 

I laugh when I hear this because the word 'nazi' has been so misused and abused since the invention the word that it's virtually meaningless.  

  [/quote]

Your defense for adopting nazi rhetoric is to say the word nazi has no meaning?   You call haredim worthless parasites and you want them exterminated.   Because what else is done with a "worthless parasite?"

Let me explain for you since you're so confused. The type of language you display here is that of a nazi who wants to wipe out vast numbers of Jews simply because he doesn't like them.

You speak such emptiness about "ahavat chinam" - You make me sick.   Your so-called ahavat chinam includes only yourself.   You may say it includes secular Jews too, but those with a different hashkafa from you are considered evil "parasites" and you call yourself an example of ahavat chinam?   You need to stop deceiving yourself and your ego.

Let's also get something straight first of all.   You reacted to my comment about Raziel, but it wasn't directed at you.  That was for "Jewish American patriot" who claims that the state only exists because of secular Jews and not religious Jews.  As if religious Jews never contributed anything.   So I brought an example.  But since you make "haredim" into the untermenschen it's important for you too.   Raziel didn't want to exterminate the ultraorthodox.   He was happy putting his life on the line for them, secular Jews, communist Jews, labor zionist Jews, mizrachim, and all members of the Jewish people.   

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Plus wearing a black hat and peyotes is not Judaism. Nowhere in the Torah does it say to wear a black hat and peyotes.

Oh, but it does say to keep Shabbath.   So why don't you start working on that instead of attacking everyone else or being obsessed with haredi fashion?    Does everything a religious Jew does have to be in the Torah?   The Torah also does not say "study math" or "read the newspaper" yet I'm sure you approve of those things and do them.   Well, a black hat and PAYOTH are not forbidden by the Torah either.    But like I said, while we are on what the Torah says and since you are so interested in what Judaism really requires and what it doesn't, how about you forget about black hats and think about kashruth and Shabbath observance?   How about tefillin?  Those would be great first steps to really achieve what you feel the haredim are failing at.

Of course there may be some good Haredi Jews but most Haredis are unemployed.

   Most?  Are you sure about that?   Can you quote me statistics and numbers?   Like I said I'm all for criticizing views but let's stick to facts, not groundless assertions because you don't like someone emotionally. 

I don't understand why Israel makes exceptions for them.

   What exceptions?   They are not treated any different than the Arabs, leftists or any other group you don't or do like.   They have their own politicians and interest groups that serve their interests and try to influence the govt.   Obviously you begrudge their political achievements.     Just as the establishment is not going to make arabs leave, they are not going to force haredim to abandon their lifestyle.   What will bring about change is necessity - as always.   The real problem is the arabs.  And they really do need to leave.   Other things can be sorted out and changed over time.   Your vision is a very stalinistic intrusion on private life if you think someone can come along and "force" the haredim to change who they are or else kill them chas veshalom or make them leave etc.

T he Arabs should leave, the Leftists should perform a national service and pledge loyalty to Israel or leave, and the ultra orthodox Jews should perform a nation service and pledge loyalty to Israel or leave.  I don't understand why a Secular society like Israel bows down to the ultra religious

It's a free society that allows all groups to do as they please.   That includes gays, religious, non religious, far left, even arab terrorist groups and supporters to some extent.     You are singling out the haredi Jews because their existence and identity drives you nuts.   Perhaps if you take some of my above advices, it won't drive you so nuts because then you'll feel fulfilled as a Jew yourself and not have to worry about what others are doing.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

I said before that they are violent and it's true that violence can be a good thing but only if its directed against evil people but these haredim burn garbage dumpsters and throw rocks at soldiers and police who protect them. They dont do these things against arabs only against zionists, which makes them no better than the arabs. 

 

Why do you label all haredim with this nonsense?   The Toldos Aharon sect and some lunatics there represent all haredim?   The groups burning things in Meah shearim are NOT mainstream.   That you extend their insanity to include all "haredim" demonstrates your blind hatred.   You are afraid of the black-hatted man, so you villify him and make him the scapegoat.   And in the path of Hitler, you call this "type" of Jew you don't like, a parasite. 

Its not just toldos aharon, its alot more than that. the extreme haredi factions are growing by leaps and bounds; they have many kids and all these kids are raised on a diet of hating the state and all the zionists including and especially the religious zionists whom they call "mizruchuniks" (sic).
 

You just called them extreme, so then you must not be including the mainstream.  But why originally did you conflate the two and why do you continually conflate all haredim with those you view as extreme and dangerous?   It's simply not fair.

  I myself consider myself a religous zionist but i am far, very far from haredi. 

  Well good for you, want a medal?   

I am sick and tired of seeing religous zionists in israel kissing up to haredim. haredim are a selfish bunch who care nothing for eretz yisrael. they only care about how much money they can suck out of the government for their yeshivas.   

Yeah?  Well I am sick and tired of people like you making generalizations about thousands of people which are not true just because you oppose their hashkafa and their political ideology and the actions of a few of them in one particular location.

As much as I disagree with the haredi "yeshivish" worldview, the scions of the haredi yeshivoth, such as Mir, Hevron, Brisk, etc, are not involved with the daily violent protest and rioting stupidity and that is simply plain fact.  This huge immanuel protest was an exception, and that was notably nonviolent, and it was about the issue of the courts.    The ones burning garbage cans are bored losers.

yes, i agree the lithuanians usually shy away from violence, although if you follow what went on in ponovezh yeshiva, you will see that that's not true. they even use violence against each other (there was even a pipe bomb planted at the door of one of the rival roshei yehsiva). 

 

But you tried to equate them with the Toldos aharon and diaper throwing lunatics.   So you admit this wasn't true.    Now you quote an instance of violence, well I have news for you there are going to be extremists in every group and quite often they are the ones who are flocking around gedolim pretending to be their right-hand man because all they want to do is really manipulate gedolim, not listen to what they have to say. 

Plus there was never a condemnation by the litvak yeshiva world against all the violence in Jerusalem and Jaffa and Ashkeklon. So this is a tacit support for mindless haredi violence.
[/b][/u] 

Again you label it "haredi violence" yet you're talking about two groups within the haredi.   One tiny group did the violence, and another mainstream group is the one you condemn for not condemning the extremists doing it.   See where you become lunatic in your arguments?  How did it turn into "haredi violence" - The ones who are not condemning it, staying out of it, are they haredi (clearly)?      I would agree with you they should condemn this nonsense, however they don't get involved and their way is to sit and learn unless they feel personally threatened or in danger (for example the courts trying to decide what school parents must send kids to which was a major exception when all the forces rallied).    Yeah, they should condemn.   But why do you call it "haredi violence?"   The religion is not to throw diapers at police, the religion is to learn Torah and live it.   And there are some yeshivot where if they find out you participated in one of these violent protests, they will throw you out of the yeshiva!   But how would you know about that you probably have never even talked to a haredi person.   
 

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

and look what's going on today in emanuel?

R kahane was all about complete unity between sephardim and ashkenazim but these haredim hate sephardim and treat them like drek.   

Yeah, there's a problem in their society, and Dati Leumi has its own problems in its own society.   Who do you think you are labelling thousands of Jews as parasites and untermenshen?

why are you putting words in my mouth?
what is your obession with Nazis and Nazi terminology?

LOL now I'm putting words in your mouth because you used the word parasite, but untermenshen is over the line for you?   Give me a break and stop playing dumb. 

I don't have an obsession at all.  The last guy (ben m) who used the same terminology against haredim you use here, less than a week ago, has since joined StørmFrønt telling them how much he hates Judaism and agrees with nazism.  So it seems if one of us has a problem here, it's certainly not me.   You need to seriously evaluate how you can use this term on fellow Jews.   And how in the world is it not nazi rhetoric.

this is very unlike the kahanists and the religous ziionists who dont make such distinctions. yemenites, morrocans, russians, iraqis, marry each other freely.

Yes, this is a great strength of the national religious sector.

inter-ethnic marriages are the norm rather than the exception among every other sector of the israeli population except among the damned haredim.

Yes so I bet you want to throw those "damned haredim" into the oven.  That'll fix their ways, you creep.

again with your Nazi terminology. You have issues, my friend.

Again with your disingenuousness.  It is YOU who utilizes nazi terminology and it is YOU who has the problem.   You call them "worthless parasites" and "damned haredim" - think about the way you are speaking about these people.  You have gone nuts!

And let me explain further why it is you who has a big problem.   The Netziv writes in the intro to Ha'Emek Davar that the reason the 2nd Temple was destroyed was because the Jews of that generation were generally "righteous" (unlike the first Temple which was destroyed because Jews transgressed the worst sins, idol worship, murder and forbidden relations) and Torah observant, but whenever anyone had a different hashkafa they called him a heretic/min.   They simply didn't tolerate differing hashkafas and that is what bred all the baseless hatred that caused the Temple to be destroyed.  The Netziv thus implores us that righteousness without an accompanying tolerance is actually fruitless and destructive.    Usually, it is the haredi establishment that does not tolerate differing Torah views, even among their own (haredi) people, but here you are no better!  You have adopted the evil ways that led to our destruction and terrible exile.