Shalom

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Re:  "To
MassuhDGoodName
G-d is outside of time; you can not compare his knowledge of actions and things that he has to our knowledge of things, since we are bound by time and our wisdom does not work on the same basis as G-d's wisdom. "

So you agree with me!     

?

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Getting back to the original question:

The Jewish belief is that angels are created specifically to do G-d's bidding, they have no free will.  So saying that G-d found error in the angels...

Perhaps these reflect conflicting views within our tradition.  When you say it's "The Jewish Belief" that angels are created to do G-d's will having no free will - are you sure it's not just one hashkafic viewpoint among multiple acceptable views?  Maybe it's the one that won out or is more common and so you are mistaking it for being The only acceptable Jewish view.    Perhaps this passage in Iyov represents a scriptural basis for the contrary viewpoint - namely, that angels do have a degree of free will and do make mistakes.   And the midrash I cited is the stream in chazal which also accepts and reflects this view.    Maybe there are contrary sources in scripture which seem to contradict this and form the foundation of the view that angels have no free will and just do exactly what G-d requires of them.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Second of all, even if Job is just a fable to teach people patience (which apparently most rabbis think it is actual history), why would it be in the Tanach if it says something theologically inaccurate? 

I take exception to your language.   What do you mean "JUST" a fable?   Chazal talk in parables and metaphor all the time, and so did the prophets at times.  These 'fables' contain profound and remarkable wisdom.  The fact that it's a parable only devalues it in the eyes of those for whom chazal knew they could not say their statements straight and would have to rap things in a simplistic outer shell because most minds can't grasp what they are saying or devote seriousness to actually consider its meaning and would rather not be inconvenienced with deep thought but comforted by simple entertaining tales.

I also don't think it's just "patience" that Iyov teaches.

Now, who says that it says something "theologically inaccurate" and how exactly was that determined?

There must be some angels or beings who have chosen to do wrong, and that is why G-d found fault in them.  No one has explained the verse I posted.

Could very well be.

I think people here, with our limited knowledge, have explained several aspects of the verse.

[MassuhDGoodName]

Re:  "If something/someone is truly omniscient why would it/He make a mistake?  He would know what will result.  Unless by 'all-knowing' you mean only "partially-knowing?" "

Haven't you ever met anyone who made mistakes on purpose?

Some folks make mitakes on purpose just to see if anyone is paying attention!

And sometimes people will make mistake after mistake and not even notice it or realize it!

So if G-d is the only Perfect Being, it stands to reason that even His mistakes are Perfect.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Re:  "If something/someone is truly omniscient why would it/He make a mistake?  He would know what will result.  Unless by 'all-knowing' you mean only "partially-knowing?" "

Haven't you ever met anyone who made mistakes on purpose?

Some folks make mitakes on purpose just to see if anyone is paying attention!

And sometimes people will make mistake after mistake and not even notice it or realize it!

So if G-d is the only Perfect Being, it stands to reason that even His mistakes are Perfect.

What do you mean by a perfect mistake?   It seems like you are discarding the meaning of terms.  Perfect means without error.   A perfect mistake is an oxymoron because a mistake is an error.  What am I missing here?   

[MassuhDGoodName]

The Talmud says that G-d prays to Himself.

Really not all that strange a concept, considering how many humans worship themself!

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Btw Dan Ben Noah, in reference to what you said earlier that "(which apparently most rabbis think it is actual history)," I read that there is a minority opinion among the Talmudic sages which says that Iyov was not a real person but a literary creation.   So while most might consider him historical, that is still pretty significant.  And that gives a lot of credence to the idea that it's a fable.   But even if Iyov was real / historical it can still be that the book of Job is a parable and metaphorical.   Sometimes history is also contained in something metaphorical and in parable.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

The Talmud says that G-d prays to Himself.

You take that statement literally?

Also, please cite it.

[MassuhDGoodName]

Re:  "One of the advantages of being G-d is that he doesn't need to learn things the hard way via trial and error like we human have to. "

How do you know?

A lot of people think the first couple of schwartzes were accidentally left in the oven too long, and the rest were all burned black on purpose in hopes that no one would notice the mistake!

[Zelhar]

Re:  "One of the advantages of being G-d is that he doesn't need to learn things the hard way via trial and error like we human have to. "

How do you know?

A lot of people think the first couple of schwartzes were accidentally left in the oven too long, and the rest were all burned black on purpose in hopes that no one would notice the mistake!

Allot of people are buffoons. Besides, blacks have SUPERIOR skin than white people. So if there was a mistake, it must be the pale white skin.

[MassuhDGoodName]

Re:  "if there was a mistake, it must be the pale white skin. "

It's not a mistake if you're the CEO of Coppertone Sunscreen Lotion!     

[muman613]

The Talmud says that G-d prays to Himself.

You take that statement literally?

Also, please cite it.

KWRBT,

I believe Massuh is referring to the concept from Parasha Ki Tisa when Moshe davens to save the Am Yisroel after the sin of the Golden Calf. It is said that Hashem was wearing Tefillin and Moshe saw the back of Hashem, he saw the knot of the tefillin..

Here is a reference to this story from Torah.org:

http://www.torah.org/learning/Parasha-insights/5761/kisisa.html
Ki Tisa- 5761
By Rabbi Yisroel Ciner

This week we read the Parasha of Ki Tisa. After receiving the Torah, Bnei Yisroel {the Children of Israel}, thinking that Moshe had died, sought to fill that void by creating an intermediary between them and Hashem. This led to the Chait Ha'egel {the sin of the golden calf} and near disaster for Bnei Yisroel until Moshe succeeded in interceding on their behalf.

A fascinating result of Moshe's t'filos {prayers} was the bringing about of an 'ais ratzon'--a time where Hashem seemed to be very willing to grant Moshe's wishes. Moshe sensed this willingness on the part of Hashem and petitioned Him on behalf of Bnei Yisroel.

"And now, if I (Moshe) have found favor in your (Hashem's) eyes, please, make known to me your ways. [33:13]"

The Talmud [Brachos 7A] explains that Moshe wanted to understand why some of the righteous prosper while others suffer and why some of the wicked prosper while others suffer. Moshe wanted to fathom the seeming injustices in the world as we perceive it.

"And He (Hashem) said: You are not able to see my face, for no man can see my face and (continue to) live... and you will see the back of me. [33:20,23]"

That explains it! No more problems in understanding the world’s seeming injustices!

And just in case that doesn't do a thorough enough job of leaving us in the dark, Rashi quotes the Talmud [Brachos 7A] that teaches that Hashem showed Moshe the knot of His tefillin {phylacteries}.

Now it's perfectly clear! You see it wasn't actually Hashem’s back but rather it was the knot of His tefillin! Thanks!

The Talmud [Brachos 6A] shows the source from which we derive that Hashem wears tefillin and reveals that His parchments contain the verse: "Who is like your people, Israel, a unique nation on the earth. [Divrei Hayamim I 17]"

How are we to understand the idea of Hashem wearing tefillin, what is the significance of the verse written in those tefillin and how does this relate to Moshe’s difficulty in understanding Divine Providence?

Rav Aryeh Kaplan z"l explains in the following way. Being that Hashem has no body, shape or form, any physical terms used in relation to Hashem come to express His relationship to the world. His 'eyes' become His awareness; His 'arm' is understood to convey His power and involvement.

What do His tefillin express?

The tefillin, worn on top of the head, hover over the site of wisdom. They are called the crown. They represent that which is above and even higher than wisdom. They represent purpose and will--that which focuses and guides wisdom in order to bring out its innate potential.

The Divine wisdom that manifested itself in the creation is astounding. Hashem's tefillin represent His purpose and will in the creation. As such, we understand that the knowledge that Hashem wears tefillin without knowing what is written on His 'parchments,' would still leave us very much in the dark.

The Talmud relates that Hashem's tefillin contain a verse about the uniqueness of Yisroel. The tefillin thereby show that Hashem's purpose and will in creation is intimately bound to and manifested by Yisroel.

As we understand, Hashem created the world as a vehicle upon which He could bestow His good. The greatest good that He could bestow is He Himself, as He is the epitome of good. Those who would be the recipients of this good would have to freely choose to make this connection to Hashem and instructions would have to be available as a means through which they could partake of the G-dly. Lastly, a people would have to accept these guidelines, to structure their entire lives according to these instructions, and thereby ultimately receive Hashem's goodness.

Many nations roamed the earth but it was a few select individuals who forged this connection to Hashem. It was only Yaakov, the third generation, who attained the name Yisroel. His descendants as a whole only attained that stature and name upon the exodus from Mitzrayim {Egypt}. By virtue of their free will, they became Yisroel, the Torah {instructions} of life were entrusted to them and the crown/purpose of creation would be fulfilled through them.

All events that happen in this world are all focused on reaching that ultimate goal of connection to Hashem and partaking of His G-dliness. The straps that emanate from the tefillin emanate to the right and the left. They represent the two opposing forces of Hashem's Providence--chessed {kindness} and gevurah {strength}. These forces join together and form the structure of Hashem's justice. This is represented by the knot of the tefillin--the point where the two join together. The straps then hang down, showing the involvement of this Divine intervention and supervision all the way down through history.

In the intertwining of a knot, some straps are revealed and others are covered. Moshe was troubled by the seeming injustice in the world. Hashem showed him that nothing is haphazard. Nothing happens by chance. Every event is the practical application of the Divine will and purpose. As such, every event is justice as it is comprised of the union of chessed and gevurah.

Hashem showed him the knot of his tefillin.

Good Shabbos,
Yisroel Ciner

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

The Talmud says that G-d prays to Himself.

You take that statement literally?

Also, please cite it.

KWRBT,

I believe Massuh is referring to the concept from Parasha Ki Tisa when Moshe davens to save the Am Yisroel after the sin of the Golden Calf. It is said that Hashem was wearing Tefillin and Moshe saw the back of Hashem, he saw the knot of the tefillin..

Here is a reference to this story from Torah.org:

http://www.torah.org/learning/Parasha-insights/5761/kisisa.html
Ki Tisa- 5761
By Rabbi Yisroel Ciner

This week we read the Parasha of Ki Tisa. After receiving the Torah, Bnei Yisroel {the Children of Israel}, thinking that Moshe had died, sought to fill that void by creating an intermediary between them and Hashem. This led to the Chait Ha'egel {the sin of the golden calf} and near disaster for Bnei Yisroel until Moshe succeeded in interceding on their behalf.

A fascinating result of Moshe's t'filos {prayers} was the bringing about of an 'ais ratzon'--a time where Hashem seemed to be very willing to grant Moshe's wishes. Moshe sensed this willingness on the part of Hashem and petitioned Him on behalf of Bnei Yisroel.

"And now, if I (Moshe) have found favor in your (Hashem's) eyes, please, make known to me your ways. [33:13]"

The Talmud [Brachos 7A] explains that Moshe wanted to understand why some of the righteous prosper while others suffer and why some of the wicked prosper while others suffer. Moshe wanted to fathom the seeming injustices in the world as we perceive it.

"And He (Hashem) said: You are not able to see my face, for no man can see my face and (continue to) live... and you will see the back of me. [33:20,23]"

That explains it! No more problems in understanding the world’s seeming injustices!

And just in case that doesn't do a thorough enough job of leaving us in the dark, Rashi quotes the Talmud [Brachos 7A] that teaches that Hashem showed Moshe the knot of His tefillin {phylacteries}.

Now it's perfectly clear! You see it wasn't actually Hashem’s back but rather it was the knot of His tefillin! Thanks!

The Talmud [Brachos 6A] shows the source from which we derive that Hashem wears tefillin and reveals that His parchments contain the verse: "Who is like your people, Israel, a unique nation on the earth. [Divrei Hayamim I 17]"

How are we to understand the idea of Hashem wearing tefillin, what is the significance of the verse written in those tefillin and how does this relate to Moshe’s difficulty in understanding Divine Providence?

Rav Aryeh Kaplan z"l explains in the following way. Being that Hashem has no body, shape or form, any physical terms used in relation to Hashem come to express His relationship to the world. His 'eyes' become His awareness; His 'arm' is understood to convey His power and involvement.

What do His tefillin express?

The tefillin, worn on top of the head, hover over the site of wisdom. They are called the crown. They represent that which is above and even higher than wisdom. They represent purpose and will--that which focuses and guides wisdom in order to bring out its innate potential.

The Divine wisdom that manifested itself in the creation is astounding. Hashem's tefillin represent His purpose and will in the creation. As such, we understand that the knowledge that Hashem wears tefillin without knowing what is written on His 'parchments,' would still leave us very much in the dark.

The Talmud relates that Hashem's tefillin contain a verse about the uniqueness of Yisroel. The tefillin thereby show that Hashem's purpose and will in creation is intimately bound to and manifested by Yisroel.

As we understand, Hashem created the world as a vehicle upon which He could bestow His good. The greatest good that He could bestow is He Himself, as He is the epitome of good. Those who would be the recipients of this good would have to freely choose to make this connection to Hashem and instructions would have to be available as a means through which they could partake of the G-dly. Lastly, a people would have to accept these guidelines, to structure their entire lives according to these instructions, and thereby ultimately receive Hashem's goodness.

Many nations roamed the earth but it was a few select individuals who forged this connection to Hashem. It was only Yaakov, the third generation, who attained the name Yisroel. His descendants as a whole only attained that stature and name upon the exodus from Mitzrayim {Egypt}. By virtue of their free will, they became Yisroel, the Torah {instructions} of life were entrusted to them and the crown/purpose of creation would be fulfilled through them.

All events that happen in this world are all focused on reaching that ultimate goal of connection to Hashem and partaking of His G-dliness. The straps that emanate from the tefillin emanate to the right and the left. They represent the two opposing forces of Hashem's Providence--chessed {kindness} and gevurah {strength}. These forces join together and form the structure of Hashem's justice. This is represented by the knot of the tefillin--the point where the two join together. The straps then hang down, showing the involvement of this Divine intervention and supervision all the way down through history.

In the intertwining of a knot, some straps are revealed and others are covered. Moshe was troubled by the seeming injustice in the world. Hashem showed him that nothing is haphazard. Nothing happens by chance. Every event is the practical application of the Divine will and purpose. As such, every event is justice as it is comprised of the union of chessed and gevurah.

Hashem showed him the knot of his tefillin.

Good Shabbos,
Yisroel Ciner

That's kind of funny because I'm familiar with that exchange as cited by the Talmud, yet I don't see any kind of take-home message being "God prays to himself."   DO YOU?   I certainly never took that away from discussions rabbis have given on that Talmudic passage.   This is why I asked him to cite the origin of his comment.   I would be shocked if that's what he refers to...     If it is, there's not much left to talk about because that seems to me a gross confusion.

[muman613]

Yes, it seems to be a misunderstanding on Massuhs part. I do not think that Hashem davens to himself.. But he does Daven..

[MassuhDGoodName]

Re:  "it seems to be a misunderstanding on Massuhs part "

No it's not.

It's merely a lack of reading on the part of others who mistakenly believe they are Torah Masters.

[muman613]

Re:  "it seems to be a misunderstanding on Massuhs part "

No it's not.

It's merely a lack of reading on the part of others who mistakenly believe they are Torah Masters.

Then please bring us the Torah which states that Hashem davens to himself... What I brought is the closest thing to what you are saying...

[MassuhDGoodName]

Re:  "This is why I asked him to cite the origin of his comment. "

NO.

YOU find it on your own.

You won't because you are convinced that you need no further study or reading to know everything.

[MassuhDGoodName]

It's in the Talmud.

[muman613]

It's in the Talmud.

Please tell me what volume of the many volumes of Talmud you are referring to. To just say 'The Talmud' is useless...

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Re:  "This is why I asked him to cite the origin of his comment. "

NO.

YOU find it on your own.

You won't because you are convinced that you need no further study or reading to know everything.

If that was true, I wouldn't have asked you for the source.

Please point me to the source of your comment that Hashem prays to himself.   My tangent with Muman really has nothing to do with you so stop getting your panties in a bunch.

[MassuhDGoodName]

Re:  "To just say 'The Talmud' is useless... "

True.

I'll have to go look in The Talmud and I'll let you know later.

[AsheDina]

In Genesis, there is some type evil serpent thing that talks and is deceitful. Job talks about some type accuser. If you need to look to see if there is a demon, look no further than the white House, you will find the most evil demon alive.


Genesis Chapter 3 בְּרֵאשִׁית
א  וְהַנָּחָשׁ, הָיָה עָרוּם, מִכֹּל חַיַּת הַשָּׂדֶה, אֲשֶׁר עָשָׂה יְהוָה אֱלֹהִים; וַיֹּאמֶר, אֶל-הָאִשָּׁה, אַף כִּי-אָמַר אֱלֹהִים, לֹא תֹאכְלוּ מִכֹּל עֵץ הַגָּן.  1 Now the serpent was more subtle than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman: 'Yea, hath God said: Ye shall not eat of any tree of the garden?' 
ב  וַתֹּאמֶר הָאִשָּׁה, אֶל-הַנָּחָשׁ:  מִפְּרִי עֵץ-הַגָּן, נֹאכֵל.  2 And the woman said unto the serpent: 'Of the fruit of the trees of the garden we may eat; 
ג  וּמִפְּרִי הָעֵץ, אֲשֶׁר בְּתוֹךְ-הַגָּן--אָמַר אֱלֹהִים לֹא תֹאכְלוּ מִמֶּנּוּ, וְלֹא תִגְּעוּ בּוֹ:  פֶּן-תְּמֻתוּן.  3 but of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said: Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.' 
ד  וַיֹּאמֶר הַנָּחָשׁ, אֶל-הָאִשָּׁה:  לֹא-מוֹת, תְּמֻתוּן.  4 And the serpent said unto the woman: 'Ye shall not surely die; 
ה  כִּי, יֹדֵעַ אֱלֹהִים, כִּי בְּיוֹם אֲכָלְכֶם מִמֶּנּוּ, וְנִפְקְחוּ עֵינֵיכֶם; וִהְיִיתֶם, כֵּאלֹהִים, יֹדְעֵי, טוֹב וָרָע.  5 for God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as God, knowing good and evil.' 
ו  וַתֵּרֶא הָאִשָּׁה כִּי טוֹב הָעֵץ לְמַאֲכָל וְכִי תַאֲוָה-הוּא לָעֵינַיִם, וְנֶחְמָד הָעֵץ לְהַשְׂכִּיל, וַתִּקַּח מִפִּרְיוֹ, וַתֹּאכַל; וַתִּתֵּן גַּם-לְאִישָׁהּ עִמָּהּ, וַיֹּאכַל.  6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was a delight to the eyes, and that the tree was to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat; and she gave also unto her husband with her, and he did eat. 
ז  וַתִּפָּקַחְנָה, עֵינֵי שְׁנֵיהֶם, וַיֵּדְעוּ, כִּי עֵירֻמִּם הֵם; וַיִּתְפְּרוּ עֲלֵה תְאֵנָה, וַיַּעֲשׂוּ לָהֶם חֲגֹרֹת.  7 And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig-leaves together, and made themselves girdles. 
ח  וַיִּשְׁמְעוּ אֶת-קוֹל יְהוָה אֱלֹהִים, מִתְהַלֵּךְ בַּגָּן--לְרוּחַ הַיּוֹם; וַיִּתְחַבֵּא הָאָדָם וְאִשְׁתּוֹ, מִפְּנֵי יְהוָה אֱלֹהִים, בְּתוֹךְ, עֵץ הַגָּן.  8 And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden toward the cool of the day; and the man and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God amongst the trees of the garden. 
ט  וַיִּקְרָא יְהוָה אֱלֹהִים, אֶל-הָאָדָם; וַיֹּאמֶר לוֹ, אַיֶּכָּה.  9 And the LORD God called unto the man, and said unto him: 'Where art thou?' 
י  וַיֹּאמֶר, אֶת-קֹלְךָ שָׁמַעְתִּי בַּגָּן; וָאִירָא כִּי-עֵירֹם אָנֹכִי, וָאֵחָבֵא.  10 And he said: 'I heard Thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself.' 
יא  וַיֹּאמֶר--מִי הִגִּיד לְךָ, כִּי עֵירֹם אָתָּה; הֲמִן-הָעֵץ, אֲשֶׁר צִוִּיתִיךָ לְבִלְתִּי אֲכָל-מִמֶּנּוּ--אָכָלְתָּ.  11 And He said: 'Who told thee that thou wast naked? Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat?' 
יב  וַיֹּאמֶר, הָאָדָם:  הָאִשָּׁה אֲשֶׁר נָתַתָּה עִמָּדִי, הִוא נָתְנָה-לִּי מִן-הָעֵץ וָאֹכֵל.  12 And the man said: 'The woman whom Thou gavest to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat.' 
יג  וַיֹּאמֶר יְהוָה אֱלֹהִים לָאִשָּׁה, מַה-זֹּאת עָשִׂית; וַתֹּאמֶר, הָאִשָּׁה, הַנָּחָשׁ הִשִּׁיאַנִי, וָאֹכֵל.  13 And the LORD God said unto the woman: 'What is this thou hast done?' And the woman said: 'The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat.' 
יד  וַיֹּאמֶר יְהוָה אֱלֹהִים אֶל-הַנָּחָשׁ, כִּי עָשִׂיתָ זֹּאת, אָרוּר אַתָּה מִכָּל-הַבְּהֵמָה, וּמִכֹּל חַיַּת הַשָּׂדֶה; עַל-גְּחֹנְךָ תֵלֵךְ, וְעָפָר תֹּאכַל כָּל-יְמֵי חַיֶּיךָ.  14 And the LORD God said unto the serpent: 'Because thou hast done this, cursed art thou from among all cattle, and from among all beasts of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life. 
טו  וְאֵיבָה אָשִׁית, בֵּינְךָ וּבֵין הָאִשָּׁה, וּבֵין זַרְעֲךָ, וּבֵין זַרְעָהּ:  הוּא יְשׁוּפְךָ רֹאשׁ, וְאַתָּה תְּשׁוּפֶנּוּ עָקֵב.  {ס}  15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; they shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise their heel.' {S} 
טז  אֶל-הָאִשָּׁה אָמַר, הַרְבָּה אַרְבֶּה עִצְּבוֹנֵךְ וְהֵרֹנֵךְ--בְּעֶצֶב, תֵּלְדִי בָנִים; וְאֶל-אִישֵׁךְ, תְּשׁוּקָתֵךְ, וְהוּא, יִמְשָׁל-בָּךְ.  {ס}  16 Unto the woman He said: 'I will greatly multiply thy pain and thy travail; in pain thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.' {S} 
יז  וּלְאָדָם אָמַר, כִּי-שָׁמַעְתָּ לְקוֹל אִשְׁתֶּךָ, וַתֹּאכַל מִן-הָעֵץ, אֲשֶׁר צִוִּיתִיךָ לֵאמֹר לֹא תֹאכַל מִמֶּנּוּ--אֲרוּרָה הָאֲדָמָה, בַּעֲבוּרֶךָ, בְּעִצָּבוֹן תֹּאכְלֶנָּה, כֹּל יְמֵי חַיֶּיךָ.  17 And unto Adam He said: 'Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying: Thou shalt not eat of it; cursed is the ground for thy sake; in toil shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life. 
יח  וְקוֹץ וְדַרְדַּר, תַּצְמִיחַ לָךְ; וְאָכַלְתָּ, אֶת-עֵשֶׂב הַשָּׂדֶה.  18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field. 
יט  בְּזֵעַת אַפֶּיךָ, תֹּאכַל לֶחֶם, עַד שׁוּבְךָ אֶל-הָאֲדָמָה, כִּי מִמֶּנָּה לֻקָּחְתָּ:  כִּי-עָפָר אַתָּה, וְאֶל-עָפָר תָּשׁוּב.  19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken; for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.' 
כ  וַיִּקְרָא הָאָדָם שֵׁם אִשְׁתּוֹ, חַוָּה:  כִּי הִוא הָיְתָה, אֵם כָּל-חָי.  20 And the man called his wife's name Eve; because she was the mother of all living. 
כא  וַיַּעַשׂ יְהוָה אֱלֹהִים לְאָדָם וּלְאִשְׁתּוֹ, כָּתְנוֹת עוֹר--וַיַּלְבִּשֵׁם.  {פ}  21 And the LORD God made for Adam and for his wife garments of skins, and clothed them. {P} 
כב  וַיֹּאמֶר יְהוָה אֱלֹהִים, הֵן הָאָדָם הָיָה כְּאַחַד מִמֶּנּוּ, לָדַעַת, טוֹב וָרָע; וְעַתָּה פֶּן-יִשְׁלַח יָדוֹ, וְלָקַח גַּם מֵעֵץ הַחַיִּים, וְאָכַל, וָחַי לְעֹלָם.  22 And the LORD God said: 'Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil; and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever.' 
כג  וַיְשַׁלְּחֵהוּ יְהוָה אֱלֹהִים, מִגַּן-עֵדֶן--לַעֲבֹד, אֶת-הָאֲדָמָה, אֲשֶׁר לֻקַּח, מִשָּׁם.  23 Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken. 
כד  וַיְגָרֶשׁ, אֶת-הָאָדָם; וַיַּשְׁכֵּן מִקֶּדֶם לְגַן-עֵדֶן אֶת-הַכְּרֻבִים, וְאֵת לַהַט הַחֶרֶב הַמִּתְהַפֶּכֶת, לִשְׁמֹר, אֶת-דֶּרֶךְ עֵץ הַחַיִּים.  {ס}  24 So He drove out the man; and He placed at the east of the garden of Eden the cherubim, and the flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way to the tree of life. {S} 

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

If you need to look to see if there is a demon, look no further than the white House, you will find the most evil demon alive.

lol

[muman613]

Do you understand what the HaSatan in the garden was doing? It was not the devil, it was acting as the evil inclination yet it was external from Chava. If you look at how the serpent deceived Chava it is because she incorrectly states that Hashem forbid her and Adam to touch the tree of the knowledge of good and evil when all which was commanded was not to eat of the tree. The yetzer hara, which was external before the sin, used her own weakness against her. This is one of the important lessons of Beresheit, and how we can conquer our own yetzer haras.

It is also important to realize that if only Adam had done teshuva instead of blaming Chava for eating from the tree, then things could have been different.

HaSatan only does his job, which he was created to do from the day all the Melochim were created.

http://www.torah.org/learning/kolhakollel/5763/vayishlach.html?print=1

Kol Hakollel
Vayishlach
Giving Satan What He Really Wants
By Rabbi Pinchas Avruch

At the conclusion of the struggle between Yaakov (Jacob) and a strange man - which the Medrash clarifies was Satan himself, functioning as the Guardian Angel of Yaakov's brother Esav (Esau) - the Angel of Evil begs Yaakov to allow him to depart. "Then [the angel] said, 'Let me go, for dawn has broken.'" (Beraishis/ Genesis 32:27). The Talmud (Tractate Chulin 91b) explains that Yaakov initially asked him if he was a thief or a gambler, since he feared the break of dawn. The stranger replied, "I am an angel, and from the moment of my creation I have never had the opportunity to sing Shira (song of Divine praise) until now!" Why did this angel, just defeated and disgraced, and never before allowed to sing Shira, have to sing right now?

Michtav Me'Eliyahu (collected writings and discourses of Rabbi Eliyahu Dessler (1891-1954) of London and B'nai Brak, one of the outstanding personalities and thinkers of the Mussar movement) elucidates that, while every creation has the potential to sing Shira, indeed, it is only sung when that creation reaches its loftiest spiritual levels, when it achieves perfection in its purpose. The Children of Israel, who witnessed the splitting of the Red Sea (see Shemos/Exodus 15), had the most profound, intimate appreciation of G-d's presence in the Universe - the Medrash Yalkut Shimoni explains that a maidservant at the Sea beheld visions of the Divine Glory that the great prophet Yechezkiel/Ezekiel was never able to envision - therefore, at the conclusion of this fantastic miracle they sang Shira, the Song of the Sea. Similarly, the Angel of Esav, at the moment he was defeated by Yaakov in the ultimate external expression of man's internal fortitude to quash his inclination for evil, fulfilled his Divine mission of enabling and facilitating the spiritual growth and elevation of the G-d fearing Jew. His G-d given charge now accomplished, he was now - as never before - suited to sing Shira.

Thus, the Yetzer Hara (the evil inclination: Satan's personal tampering with one's thoughts creating each individual's temptation to sin and do wrong) finds success in failure and failure in success. As a servant of the King of Kings, he serves with gusto, always trying to pull the Jew away from G-d. But his success in our failure ultimately serves to detract from G-d's glory, a phenomenon that pains him immensely. As relentless as he is to gain in his objective of stunting our spiritual growth, he wishes he would lose the battle. His true Divine objective is to challenge us to fail so that we may overcome him and grow from that challenge. Ultimately, when he loses, he wins.

And just how does Satan thrive with such a backward assignment? Because it is only through him that creation has purpose. Without him there is no "choice" in the world, no reason to want to do anything but fulfill G-d's will. But such service would be empty and devoid of meaning. G-d's essential expression of kindness in creation is His allowance for us to develop and grow in our "G-d consciousness", to actively foster a relationship with Him through fulfillment of the mitzvos (Divine commands) of His Torah while resisting the tug of the Yetzer Hara to do otherwise.

Intellectually, we know the Yetzer Hara would love nothing more than to fail. The least we can do is work to accommodate him.

Have a Good Shabbos!

http://www.shemayisrael.com/parsha/leff/archives/vayish.htm

Struggling With Angels

Jacob was left alone and a man wrestled with him until the break of dawn (Bereishis 32 24).

A society in which technology enables us to deal effortlessly with many of life's difficulties raises the issue of the value of challenges and struggles. The Torah's view on this question lies at the center of the account of the struggle between Yaakov and the angel.

According to one Midrash (Bereishis Rabbah 77:3) the angel who confronted Yaakov was Esav's archangel, Satan himself. He came to obstruct and deter Yaakov on his return to Eretz Yisrael. Another Midrash however, says that the angel was Michael, the patron of Yaakov and the Jewish people. To make matters even more difficult, Rashbam writes that Yaakov sought to run away from Esav, and Michael came to restrain him by demonstrating to Yaakov that Hashem's promise to him would be fulfilled.

To resolve these seeming contradictions we must understand the Torah's view of man's struggle. Mesilas Yesharim describes life as one of struggle. Hashem put the neshamah (soul) into a physical body in order for it to earn Olam Haba through its efforts to overcome the yetzer hara. It is this struggle which elevates a person and enables him to reach the ultimate goal of achieving the World to Come.

Upon his return to Eretz Yisrael, Yaakov wanted to sit in peace after all the trials of his life: flight from his brother Esav, life in the house of Lavan, the tragedy with Dinah and the death of Rachel. He came back to Eretz Yisrael ready to begin a life of tranquillity. Immediately, Yosef was taken away. Hashem responded, says the Midrash, by saying "Is that which is prepared for tzaddikim in the next world not enough? Do they also want to have tranquillity in this world?"

Is it, then, impossible for a tzaddik to have good in both worlds? Do Chazal not tell us that not everyone merits two tables - this world and the next-thereby implying that some do merit both?

Like all rhetorical questions, that of Hashem in the Midrash is really a statement of fact. Man was put into this world to grow, not to remain stationary. Through that growth man acquires an ever greater portion in the World to Come. Respite from outside tensions is not an invitation to take it easy but an opportunity to exert oneself more in attaining perfection. The problem with Yaakov's desire for tranquillity was in the fact that he sought to sit, to remain at rest, and not to utilize his respite to be able to redouble his efforts.

Hashem responded, "It is not enough what is already prepared for the tzaddik in Olam Haba. It is never enough. There is always potential for more. And yet he wants to remain at rest?" Hashem will not permit that, for it is detrimental for the tzaddik. And therefore Yaakov was presented with a new challenge-the sale of Yosef- to prevent him from remaining static.

The struggle between Yaakov and the angel has far reaching significance for us today. The Talmud says that the dust kicked up by Yaakov and the angel reached up to the Throne of Glory, signifying the effect of that struggle on all future Jewish history. (The Throne of Glory represents God's Providence. the guiding force in history.)

During the struggle the angel took on different disguises. According to one opinion, he came as a talmid chacham. Another opinion says that he came as a robber. Sometimes a person wants to elevate himself, but something stands in his way. That is the Satan- the robber - who seeks to deny the person what he wants. That denial is to challenge him and cause him to appreciate all the more his accomplishments. On the other hand, there is the angel who tries to pull a person up when he wants to stay put. That is Michael, the talmid chacham. Yaakov wanted to avoid problems; Michael forced the struggle upon him in order to elevate him higher.

At the end of the night, the angel asked to be set free, but Yaakov refused. While at the beginning of the night Yaakov sought to avoid the confrontation, by night's end he realized that the struggle was essential to his very existence.

And why did the angel want to go? He wanted to sing to Hashem. His time to sing only came in the morning. Rabbi Dessler explains that when an angel fulfills its purpose, that is the song it sings. The angel, whether it be Satan or Michael, exists to give us the chance to fight and be successful, and when we are successful then the angel, too, has fulfilled its mission.

In this light we can understand why the angel did not tell Yaakov his name. Angels' names change with their function. Yaakov's struggle represents all struggles Jews have faced and will face throughout history. Each man's struggles in life are different, depending on his unique nature. What is easy for one person is difficult for another. Thus, every person has a slightly different Satan and Michael to fight with. Consequently, the angel could not give a single name.

Where does a person derive the power to carry on these struggles? The Midrash (Bereishis Rabbah 771) states: "There is none like God; yet who is like God? Jeshurun [which means Yisrael, the Patriarchl. Just as it is written of God, 'And the Lord alone shall be exalted' (Isaiah 211). So, too, of Yaakov: 'And Yaakov was left alone' (Bereishis 32 25).'

Both Hashem and Israel possess the quality of being alone. No outside power has an effect on Hashem. Nothing adds to or subtracts from His Essence. A Jew has the power to a certain degree to emulate Hashem in this respect. If a person has the inner strength of character and knows who he is, then nothing external, no problem or challenge, can deter him. He recognizes that all external obstacles are just that -external. He remains strong, for his essence remains untouched. He knows that even if he fails it is only in unessential matters. He may be slowed down but he perseveres; he is not overwhelmed.

And what is the inner strength of a Jew-Torah. Yaakov is the personification of Torah. He represents the strength of character that Torah builds.

Yaakov was wounded in the thigh. Midrash Tanchuma relates that the angel wanted to know how Yaakov could keep up the fight for so long, and concluded that he must be an angel himself. The difference between angels and humans is that angels do not have a hip joint. They cannot sit. An angel is always ready for action. Consequently, he never becomes depressed or overwhelmed. A human does not have this ability. He can be overwhelmed by a situation, causing him to give up and sit down in inactivity.

The angel struck Yaakov in the hip joint and saw that he was a man. Yaakov was wounded; he had failed a little; but he did not give up and become depressed. Because he knew who he and what he was, he could overcome; it was only a minor setback and he continued the struggle. A tzaddik can fall seven times and still continue to get up. He deals with each failure and remains in control.

The Torah gives us a constant reminder of Yaakov's struggle the prohibition on eating the aid hanasheh (the sciatic nerve). Sforno explains that we thereby show that the place where Yaakov was wounded is not important. That is how a person must deal with failure. When you fail in one area you cannot become de- pressed over it. What's the aid hanasheh-nothing important. We throw it away. Every time a person refrains from eating the aid hanasheh, he is reminded not to be overwhelmed by adversity.

Each negative prohibition in the Torah corresponds to a different day of the year. The aid hanasheh corresponds to Tishah B'Av, a day of destruction. Other nations would have been devastated by the loss of their land and independence. But Klal Yisrael continues on, even in galus. 'God thrust us into the darkness'-this refers to the Babylonian Talmud" (Sanhedrin 24a). Out of the darkness of galus, the Chafetz Chaim explains, comes the incentive to achieve, to produce. It is the darkness that is the motivating force in the continuation and enhancement of the Oral Torah - Talmud Bavli. Klal Yisrael was wounded when we had to leave Eretz Yisrael, but we continued to function and gain strength through the struggle.

Chazal say that when the First Temple was destroyed, the cherubim embraced each other. One represented God and the other Yisrael. Hashem shook us to our very foundation by destroying the Beis Hamikdash and forcing us to limp away into galus, but at the same time He guaranteed that we retain the ability to return.

Failure itself is the incentive to rise and continue. It is challenges and struggles that give a person the chance to turn his life around. Every negative thing in life can be used in a positive way. Rabbi Dessler points out that the word, evil, inverted is, awaken. Evil is there for the purpose of awakening a person. Setbacks and obstacles in a person's life are not there to immobilize him, but to offer a challenge, something to fight against in order to strengthen himself and earn his ultimate reward.

Since Yaakov can now distinguish between the peripheral and the essential, he is no longer Yaakov but Yisrael. The name Yisrael signifies his worthiness to receive the blessing. The name Yisrael represents struggle with man and angel. Because he struggled he came face to face with Hashem. The struggle is the essence of the name Yisrael.

That, too, is the greatness of Klal Yisrael. We deserve Hashem's blessing because we have the strength of character, derived from the Torah, to be able to struggle even when we are wounded. Yaakov's name is changed but not completely. The name Yaakov still remains because the struggle goes on. At times we will be Yisrael and win; sometimes we will go back to being Yaakov. Life is full of ups and downs. But we realize that we have the potential of being Yisrael even when we are Yaakov, facing the setbacks and disappointments of life; we may be slowed down, but we will not give up.

In the end, the angel left Yaakov wounded, but he did not sit down and bemoan his fate; he limped away. Once he showed that he could persevere, then Hashem took out the sun and healed him. This is a hint to Olam Haba, when Hashem will take out the bright light hidden at Creation and with it heal the tzaddikim. There, they will reach their highest level of perfection, the culmination of all their struggles in this world with men and angels.

[Chai]

Og was a fallen angel in the story of Noah
but in human flesh.