Torah and Jewish Idea > Torah and Jewish Idea

Rashi on Daniel 7:25: Moshiach in 2011?!

<< < (3/12) > >>

Kahane-Was-Right BT:

--- Quote from: wonga66 on December 12, 2010, 04:54:30 PM ---In his 1971 book "Proof of the Accuracy of the Bible", Kahanist Rabbi Elihu Shatz gave his calculation on Daniel that the war of Gog & Magog would break out in 1973. One can imagine his excitement when the Yom Kippur war started on 6 October 1973. Rabbis at the time actually said that it was the start of Gog and Magog.

Rabbi Kahane, without any calculations, himself stated in the months before he was slain that Saddam's invasion of Kuwait was the beginning of Gog and Magog.
Ramabam in Iggeres l'Teiman gave his messianic year as 1210.

We don't say that these rabbis were "wrong" or "erred".

We say that either the generation wasn't worthy, or that Hashem had other plans.

--- End quote ---

Yeah, 'without calculations' because that would be misguided and chazal warn strongly against doing that.   Yet, here you are, trying to count Rabbi Kahane in your 'camp' as you always do, as if he believed every single thing you believe, you simply recast him into a smarter better version of you.   But I don't believe he would waste his time with calculations like the ones you are promoting.

And as for saying they were wrong, yes we do say their prediction was wrong if it didn't come true!  We don't say it was correct or the right estimation!   Give me a break.   Whether anyone "erred" or not depends on the context, but I do think most people nowadays do err, especially websites that waste their time delving into these matters and trying to attach specific dates and specific significance to specific world events, telling people they received secret messages, they have inside information xyz, etc.   I have seen these sites, and I know this game.    

But it seems to me you fail to understand the Iggereth Teyman.   The Rambam in the same letter asserts that it is forbidden to make predictions like that.   I'll quote from it (I have added bold emphasis):

http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Epistle_to_Yemen/XII
Rambam writes:

--- Quote ---
"In your letter you have adverted to the computations of the date of the Redemption and R. Saadia's opinion on the subject. First of all, it devolves upon you to know that no human being will ever be able to determine it precisely as Daniel has already intimated, "For the words are shut up and sealed." (Daniel 12:9). Indeed many hypotheses were advanced by scholars, who fancied that they have discovered the date, as was anticipated in Scripture, "Many will run to and fro, and opinions shall be increased." (Daniel 12:9). That is, there shall be numerous views concerning it. Furthermore we have a Divine communication through the medium of the prophets that many persons will calculate the time of the advent of the Messiah but will fail to ascertain its true date. We are cautioned against giving way to doubt and distrust because of these miscalculations. The longer the delay, the more fervently shall you hope, as it is written, "And it declareth of the end and doth not lie, though it tarry, wait for it, because it will surely come, it will not delay." (Habakkuk 2:3)."  
--- End quote ---


After proceeding to cite and delve into the example of differing opinions on the dates of the Egyptian exile and exodus, Rambam then says the following, please pay close attention to the portion where I added bold emphasis:  


--- Quote ---"Now, if so much uncertainty prevailed in regard to the date of the emancipation from Egyptian bondage, the term of which was fixed, how much more would it be the case in respect to the date of the final redemption, the prolonged and protracted duration of which appalled and dismayed our inspired seers, so that one of them was moved to exclaim, "Wilt Thou be angry with us forever? Wilt Thou draw out Thine anger to all generations?" (Psalms 85:6). Isaiah, too, alluding to the long drawn out exile, declared: "And they shall be gathered together as prisoners are gathered in the dungeon, and shall be shut up in prison, and after many days shall they be released" (24:22). Inasmuch as Daniel has proclaimed the matter a deep secret, our sages have interdicted the calculation of the time of the future redemption, or the reckoning of the period of the advent of the Messiah, because the masses might be mystified and bewildered should the Messiah fail to appear as forecast. The rabbis invoked G-d to frustrate and destroy those who seek to determine prescisely the advent of the Messiah, because the masses might be mystified and bewildered should the Messiah fail to appear as forecast. The rabbis invoked G-d to frustrate and destroy those who seek to determine precisely the advent ofthe Messianic era, because they are a stumbling block to the people, and that is why they uttered the imprecation "May the calculators of the final redemption come to grief" (Sanhedrin 97b)."    


"As for R. Saadia's Messianic calculations, there are extenuating circumstances for them though he knew they were disallowed. For the Jews of his time were perplexed and misguided. The Divine religion might well nigh have disappeared had he not encouraged the pusillanimous, and diffused, disseminated and propagated by word of mouth and pen a knowledge of its underlying principles. He believed, in all earnestness, that by means of the Messianic calculations, he would inspire the masses with hope for the truth. Verily all his deeds were for the sake of heaven. Consequently, in view of the probity of his motives, which we have disclosed, one must not decry him for his Messianic computations."


--- End quote ---

But this is of course quite different from our time.  Nobody is throwing away Judaism because moshiach didn't come yet or doesn't look like he's coming.   There are not masses of people saying 'look how powerful the church is, therefore it must be we have to give up the Shema and become catholic (G-d forbid).'  No one is saying look at Islam controlling many countries that proves Judaism is defeated (G-d forbid).   That argument doesn't even hold water or sound slightly realistic or logical.  If any are saying them, they are very few compared to all the Jews who go after false ideas.  People leave Judaism for a host of other reasons in this day and age, and one of the prominent reasons is being lied to by rabbinic figures and misled by people who should know better, only to figure out that things they were told were fraudulent.   THAT is the bigger danger.   We are not being beaten in the streets by the jackboot of xtian europe or forced to convert by the sword in arab countries.   It is a new situation in which we are strong, not downtrodden.   It is not time to expect a mystical savior to appear and solve all our problems or cry about why haven't we been allowed to return home yet and why haven't we been allowed to get out of the gentile nations, but it is time to focus on practical deeds that will bring about redemption and the messiah, the anointed King, because we have already been allowed and enabled to come home.

Kahane-Was-Right BT:
Btw, after all of what I quoted above and Rambam's stressing that such predictions cannot be made on the basis of astrology or other means, and even on basis of the prophets it cannot be known for sure, (btw, does R. Katz give such disclaimers?) he goes on to say: 

--- Quote ---"The precise date of the messianic advent cannot be known. But I am in possession of an extraordinary tradition which I received from my father, who in turn received it from his father, going back to our early ancestors who were exiled from Jerusalem, and who were mentioned by the prophet in the verse, "And the exiles of Jerusalem that are in Spain" (Obadiah 20). According to this tradition there is a covert indication in the prediction of Balaam to the future restoration of prophecy in Israel...  the verse "After the lapse of time, one will tell Jacob and Israel what G-d hath wrought," (Numbers 23:23), contains a veiled allusion to the date of the restoration of prophecy to Israel. The statement means that after the lapse of an interval equal to the time that passed from the Six Days of Creation to Balaam's day, seers will again tell Israel what G-d hath wrought. Now Balaam uttered his prediction in the thirty-eighth year after the Exodus which corresponds to the year 2485 after the Creation of the World, for the Exodus took place in the beginning of the year 2448. According to the interpretation of this chronology, prophecy would be restored to Israel in the year 4970 after the creation of the world. It is doubtless true that the reappearance of prophecy in Israel is one of the signs betokening the approach of the Messianic era as is intimated in Scripture "And your sons and your daughters shall prophecy ... And I will show wonders in the heavens and in the earth ... Before the great and terrible day of the Lord come" (Joel 3:1, 3, 4). This is the most genuine tradition concerning the Messianic advent. We were admonished against, and strictly prohibited from blazening it abroad, lest some folk deem it unduly postponed. We have already apprised you concerning it, but G-d knows best what is true. 
--- End quote ---

So, first, you got it wrong - It wasn't a prediction of the redemption, but it was a prediction of the restoration of prophecy to the Jewish people.   Alas, it did not come true, but Rambam obviously was trying to reassure a community who very much WAS faced with dire prospects and the local apostate Jews who converted to Islam were trying to convert them on the basis of messianic predictions and the degraded state of the Jews as proofs, etc.  And there was also a local false messiah to deal with which this prediction came to contradict.  If you read on on page 16 of the document you will see Rambam calls this person a madman.   The emphasis on the restoration of prophecy as a need for a messiah figure came to directly discredit the local Yemenite false messiah figure that even the author of the letter had fallen for.   
Here's a snippet about that: 
--- Quote ---"You mention that a certain man in one of the cities of Yemen pretends that he is the Messiah.17 As I live, I am not surprised at him or at his followers, for I have no doubt that he is mad and a sick person should not be rebuked or reproved for an illness brought on by no fault of his own. Neither am I surprised at his votaries, for they were persuaded by him because of their sorry plight, their ignorance of the importance and high rank of the Messiah, and their mistaken comparison of the Messiah with the son of the Mahdi [the belief in] whose rise they are witnessing. But I am astonished that you, a scholar who has studied carefully the doctrines of the rabbis, are inclined to repose faith in him."
--- End quote ---


   So this was appropriate that Rambam reassured them in this way and gave them hope that soon the tide will change, and they should keep to their beliefs in the face of Muslim oppression, but he also moderated sharing of his private "tradition" with them with all the necessary disclaimers and explanations that this is not something we can really rely on and cannot expect it to come true exactly on that date - and if this particular interpretation doesn't come true, that's ok too.
Oh, and it also came to contradict the claims of a fraud in Yemen who was posing himself as messiah.    I can really understand where Rambam was coming from. 

 I quite often cannot understand where you are coming from.

Kahane-Was-Right BT:
Ugh. ???


It appears you refer to this article, right wonga?

http://jtf.org/forum_english/index.php/topic,18454.0.html   

It has the whole article there: 
On Iraq And The Gulf Crisis
Written by Rabbi Meir Kahane

     
Only problem is, Rabbi Kahane does NOT say it is the war of Gog and Magog as you claimed.    He says

--- Quote --- That the startling and incredible events in the Middle East are yet one more giant leap in this, the era of “atchalta d'geula” and "ikvot d'mshicha", the beginning of the redemption and the footsteps of the Messiah, is too painfully clear for all but the most blinded to see. The gathering together of armies and nations to the doorstep of Israel, the terrible threat of awesome weapons, the raging and pandemonium of economies and politics and nations, all testify to the escalation by the Almighty of the final era, the inexorable progression toward the battle of Gog, coming up against the Land of Israel. 
--- End quote ---

And later on: 
--- Quote ---And that is what Kuwait and Iraq and the entire incredible and stupefying spectacle of the nations of the world moving their armies but a stone's throw from the Land of Israel means. The final war of Gog and the nations going up against Israel moves a giant step forward - and we still see and understand nothing.
--- End quote ---

He says these events are the footsteps TOWARD the great battle of Gog and Magog!  Not that saddam's invasion of kuwait began that war.    You really need to stop distorting sources here to push your agendas.  It is sickening when you do this.
 

wonga66:
Nevertheless, in the Iggeret, Rambam doesn't hesitate to give his opinion & tradition as to the restoration of nevuah coming in 4976 (2488x2), followed by the Moshiach

http://www.daat.ac.il/daat/mahshevt/mekorot/teyman1-2.htm
ועל העניין הזה קבלנו, שזה שאמר בלעם במדבר כ"ג כ"ג "כעת יאמר ליעקב ולישראל מה פעל אל", יש בו סוד, שמן העת ההיא יש לחשב כמנין שיש מששת ימי בראשית ועד אותה העת, ותחזור הנבואה לישראל. ואז יאמרו להם הנביאים "מה פעל אל". ונבואה זו נאמרה בשנת הארבעים לצאתם מארץ מצרים, ותמצא התחלת החשבון עד אותה העת אלפים ותפ"ח שנה, שהסימן "בתפ"ח גאולים". ולפי ההיקש הזה והפירוש הזה תחזור הנבואה לישראל בשנת ארבעת אלפים תתקע"ו ליצירה. ואין ספק שחזרת הנבואה היא הקדמת המשיח, שנאמר יואל ג' א' "ונבאו בניכם ובנותיכם" וגומר. זהו יותר אמתי מכל חשבון שנאמר בשום קץ

And don't blame me. I'm not making any calculations. Take it up with R.Katz. The closer we get to 6000, the odds are rising that someone's gonna get it right!

Kahane-Was-Right BT:
But I already quoted that and I showed that you were wrong when you claimed that he predicted the date of the redemption.  He didn't.   Yes, he predicted the restoration of prophecy, but alas that prediction did not come true.    Most or all of them do not.

Navigation

[0] Message Index

[#] Next page

[*] Previous page