Torah and Jewish Idea > Torah and Jewish Idea
Who wants Moshiach Now?
muman613:
--- Quote from: edu on June 03, 2011, 10:52:19 AM ---Muman613
On the one hand the "We want Mashiach Now" campaign of Chabad has made them more nationalistic and interested in learning Rambam
On the other hand because of the high messianic expectations raised by the campaign, even after the Rebbe died, many in Chabad refused to deal properly with the new reality and instead started to originate
"strange ideologies" to explain the seeming failure of their Mashiach scenario. Are you implying MUMAN613
that the pluses of the Chabad campaign outweigh the minuses?
--- End quote ---
Edu,
I do suggest that Chabad has done a great thing by getting people excited about the coming of Moshiach. So many Jews talk about it today, and not only Chabadniks. All strains of Judaism have been affected by Chabads open discussion of Moshiach.
I think what you are implying is the age-old accusation that Chabad believes that their Rebbe was Moshiach. We all know that this is impossible because Rebbe did not bring about any of the signs which indicate that he was moshiach, and he died without fulfilling any of the signs... I have many good Chabad friends, and know 3 Chabad Rabbis personally. Chabad is one of the most open and inviting Jewish organization which I have encountered. Their Rabbis have opened their houses and helped me and my family perform many Mitzvot.
I have asked my Chabad Rabbi friends about this accusation that they believe that their Rebbe is Moshiach. Every single response indicated that they did not believe it, and they have never taught this heretical idea. I have listened to years of Chabad lectures and not once have I heard any suggestion that Rabbi Schneerson was the Moshiach. I have heard that people know people who propagate this heresy.. But I have never sat down and spoken with a single Chassid who would admit to me that they believe this.
I do not believe that Rebbe was Moshiach. I do believe he was a Tzaddik, and a Tzadik is a special character in the Chassidic belief. As I identify with Breslov {because my family is from Uman in Ukraine} I have learned to understand that the Tzadik is not a Messianic figure but one who has great wisdom and brings it to the people. Rabbi Nachman of Breslov was a tzadik and I will always believe this. I believe Rabbi Schneerson was also a tzadik, but he certainly was not Moshiach.
http://www.613.org/hasidism/03.htm
--- Quote ---We frequently assume that man’s spiritual status hinges upon the measure of his deeds. G-d places man’s actions on the Divine scale, Mitzvos, good deeds, on one side and Aveiros, violations of G-d’s commands, on the other. Defendants with a heavier Mitzvah side are Tzadikim (saints); an excess of Aveiros characterizes Rishoim (sinners). The few with perfectly split behaviors belong to a third category - Beinonim or Middle-of-the-Roaders. Chassidus argues that this simplistic definition is not wholly accurate.
Rabbi Shneur Zalman of Liadi,[5] dedicated the first part of his book Likutey Amarim (Tanya) to the premise that a Tzadik is not “merely” a person whose deeds are usually Mitzvos. The Talmud records a dispute between two sages, Abaye and Rabbah, as to whether the latter was a Beinoni or a Tzadik. Rabbah insisted that he was a Beinoni, while Abaye argued that if Rabbah was a Beinoni it would be impossible for anyone to be a Tzadik.[6] Rabbah definitely performed more good than evil[7] yet felt undeserving of the Tzadik title. The Tanya deduced that a Tzadik is not just a practitioner of good deeds. His inner life is virtuous, Sin repulses him, and he is only attracted to virtue.
A handful of individuals are born Tzadikim. Job referred to the natural Tzadik when he said “G-d, You created Tzadikim.”[8] While the Talmud states that the angel of predestination[9] does not declare the spiritual level the child will attain, because each individual must attain holiness through his own efforts, that is merely the norm. Every rule has exceptions. The natural Tzadik Job referred to is such an exception. From birth this Tzadik is predisposed to a life of holiness and internally he hardly feels that sin is a viable option. King David was a different type of Tzadik, he was born with virulent and sinful urges. Through mortification of the material body and rigorous Torah study he killed his evil urge and reached the spiritual level of a Tzadik.[10] A Tzadik, whether by birth or through spiritual achievements, is not afflicted with the struggle between lust and conscience. The only desire of the Tzadik is attachment to Divinity.
--- End quote ---
http://www.ou.org/about/judaism/rabbis/mmschneerson.htm
edu:
http://www.ksol.org/image.asp?f=psak_large.pdf&d=11
This is a link to a hebrew petition of hundreds of rabbis presumably mostly from Chabad
who signed a petition years after the death of Rabbi Schneerson that he is Mashiach.
This is in response to what Muman613 wrote:
--- Quote --- I have listened to years of Chabad lectures and not once have I heard any suggestion that Rabbi Schneerson was the Moshiach. I have heard that people know people who propagate this heresy.. But I have never sat down and spoken with a single Chassid who would admit to me that they believe this.
--- End quote ---
muman613:
--- Quote from: edu on June 04, 2011, 05:24:37 PM ---http://www.ksol.org/image.asp?f=psak_large.pdf&d=11
This is a link to a hebrew petition of hundreds of rabbis presumably mostly from Chabad
who signed a petition years after the death of Rabbi Schneerson that he is Mashiach.
This is in response to what Muman613 wrote:
--- End quote ---
That is sad but it does not represent the opinion of the national Chabad organization. As I stated in the quotation you mentioned I know several good Chabad Rabbis and not a single one has taught or admitted to believe that he was Moshiach.
Are your posts here intended to be a smear of Chabad? That is what I am seeing in your posts.
http://www.chabad.org/library/moshiach/default.htm
http://www.chabad.org/library/moshiach/article_cdo/aid/1121893/jewish/The-Basics.htm
--- Quote ---Who is Moshiach?—The Basics
The Messianic Redemption will be ushered in by a person, a human leader, a descendant of Kings David and Solomon, who will reinstate the Davidic royal dynasty. According to tradition, Moshiach will be wiser than Solomon, and a prophet around the level of Moses.
Ever since the destruction of the Holy Temple, in every generation there is an individual, a scion of the House of David, who has the potential to be the Moshiach. If at any moment the Jews are worthy of redemption, this person would be directed from Above to assume the role of the redeemer.
During the Messianic Era, the Moshiach will serve a dual role. He will be a monarch, ruling over all of humanity with kindness and justice, and upholding the law of the Torah—613 commandments for the Jews, and seven for the non-Jews. He will also be the ultimate teacher, the conduit for the deepest and most profound dimensions of the Torah which will then be revealed by G‑d.
How are we to identify the Moshiach?
Moshiach is not identified by his ability to perform earth-shattering miracles. In fact, he isn't required to perform any miracles at all (although the performance of miracles doesn't disqualify him either).
The following are the criteria for identifying the Moshiach, as written by Maimonides:
If we see a Jewish leader who (a) toils in the study of Torah and is meticulous about the observance of the mitzvot, (b) influences the Jews to follow the ways of the Torah and (c) wages the "battles of G‑d"—such a person is the "presumptive Moshiach."
If the person succeeded in all these endeavors, and then rebuilds the Holy Temple in Jerusalem and facilitates the ingathering of the Jews to the Land of Israel—then we are certain that he is the Moshiach.
--- End quote ---
http://www.sichosinenglish.org/books/mashiach/index.html
muman613:
I realize that there is danger in getting Jews all excited about Moshiach and some of the followers may get the impression that their rebbe is Moshiach. This is one reason some mitnagdim were against the entire Chassidic movement. Breslov never replaced Rabbi Nachman and some people still believe that the followers of Rabbi Nachman believe he was Moshiach. I have never met a Breslover who would tell me that Rabbi Nachman was the Moshiach and I do not believe that he was the Moshiach. But as I said before, I do believe he was a tzadik of his generation. And every generation really needs a good tzadik to help keep the generation going in the ways of Hashem. They are also called Gedolim, which we have so few of today...
edu:
quote from Muman613 based on Chabad
According to tradition, Moshiach will be wiser than Solomon, and a prophet around the level of Moses.
Before the Rebbe died, Chabadniks tried to show me the Rambam, to prove through their distorted interpretation that the Rebbe was Mashiach or at least the person who would be Mashiach if we have Mashiach in our generation.
Rambam says that if not for sins, Bar Cochba, who was not wiser than Solomon and not a prophet, could have been Mashiach.
Now I would like to ask you a personal question Muman613. Let's say, that hundreds of Breslav Rabbis officially came out with a signed petition, that Rabbi Nachman of Breslav is the Mashiach, who will do all his Mashiach activities in his second coming. And a small minority said even more radical things about him. Wouldn't you feel obligated to come out with a forceful, statement repudiating the idea in order to avoid, Chilul Hashem and spreading of a lie in the nation of Israel.
I assume you would.
If so, where is the forceful statement by Chabad, regarding their Rebbe?
Point 2. For many years, The Vilna Gaon was smeared as having voiced needless opposition to the Chassidic movement of his time. I stress of his time, since the Movement has undergone some changes. I do believe, in order to protect the reputation of the Vilna Gaon and also to prevent a major spiritual obstacle from developing in Israel, it is indeed proper to point out the faults of Chabad on the Messianic issue and not just sweep the problems under the rug.
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