Torah and Jewish Idea > Torah and Jewish Idea
Who wants Moshiach Now?
muman613:
--- Quote from: edu on June 05, 2011, 02:01:36 AM ---quote from Muman613 based on Chabad
According to tradition, Moshiach will be wiser than Solomon, and a prophet around the level of Moses.
Before the Rebbe died, Chabadniks tried to show me the Rambam, to prove through their distorted interpretation that the Rebbe was Mashiach or at least the person who would be Mashiach if we have Mashiach in our generation.
Rambam says that if not for sins, Bar Cochba, who was not wiser than Solomon and not a prophet, could have been Mashiach.
Now I would like to ask you a personal question Muman613. Let's say, that hundreds of Breslav Rabbis officially came out with a signed petition, that Rabbi Nachman of Breslav is the Mashiach, who will do all his Mashiach activities in his second coming. And a small minority said even more radical things about him. Wouldn't you feel obligated to come out with a forceful, statement repudiating the idea in order to avoid, Chilul Hashem and spreading of a lie in the nation of Israel.
I assume you would.
If so, where is the forceful statement by Chabad, regarding their Rebbe?
Point 2. For many years, The Vilna Gaon was smeared as having voiced needless opposition to the Chassidic movement of his time. I stress of his time, since the Movement has undergone some changes. I do believe, in order to protect the reputation of the Vilna Gaon and also to prevent a major spiritual obstacle from developing in Israel, it is indeed proper to point out the faults of Chabad on the Messianic issue and not just sweep the problems under the rug.
--- End quote ---
Oh, I agree with you fully that nobody should be fooled to think that Moshiach has already come.
If I had heard such talk from any one of the Rabbis from Chabad which I personally know I would avoid them and speak out about it. I do not try to sweep this issue under the rug.
I do believe that Rebbe, if he was of the Davidic line may have been a prospective Moshiach. I dont think it is heretical to say that. But once the mission is left unfulfilled he cannot be Moshiach. As you bring up the issue with Bar Kochba, who we call Bar Kosiva because he did not fulfill the prophecies of Moshiach and yet allowed the belief that he was Moshiach to cloud his senses and fall far.... This is one of the reasons we mourn during most of the Omer period:
http://www.ou.org/chagim/sefira/emotions.htm
--- Quote ---Another is for the tragic loss by the Jewish People of the Military Campaign which centered on the City of Beitar. This struggle pitted Jewish forces led by a great Jewish leader by the name of Bar Kosiva, against the most powerful of the Roman legions, led by the ablest of the Roman generals. This uprising of the Jewish People in approximately 135 C.E., which by archaeological evidence definitely included the minting of coins, and which some have speculated included the re-conquest of Yerushalayim, with at least the beginning of work on Temple Reconstruction, came to a tragic end with the slaughter of hundreds of thousands of Jews.
Another source of tragedy is the failure of the man whom Rabbi Akiva, one of the greatest Jewish leaders of all time, had declared to be the Mashiach. This man, Bar Kosiva, was given the name "Bar Kochba," "Son of the Star," based on a verse of Messianic Prophecy uttered, paradoxically, by one of our People's greatest Biblical enemies, Bilaam the Seer. "I see him, but not now; I perceive him, but not in the immediate future; a star will shoot forth from Yaakov, and a Tribe will arise from Israel, which will destroy the ends of Moav and uproot all the Children of Seth."
--- End quote ---
http://www.ou.org/chagim/lagbaomer/arrows.htm
--- Quote ---Spiritually, the revolt was led by Rabbi Akiva, who endorsed the Revolt and proclaimed Bar Kochba to be the Mashiach. If Rabbi Akiva believed that Bar Kochba was the Moshiach, it is nearly certain that Bar Kochba had at least the potential to be the "real thing."
Tragically, and mysteriously, Bar Kochba lost Divine favor when he erroneously accused Rabbi Elazar of betraying Betar and executed him, triggering the immediate withdrawal of support by Rabbi Akiva and the rest of the Rabbis.
"Bar Kochba," "The Son of the Star," the almost-Mashiach, was now reduced to the name of Bar Kosiva, which was either his real name or another symbolic name, meaning "the son of the lie." He attempted to "go it alone," without the support of the Rabbis and thus, so to speak, also without the support of G-d, against the most powerful of the Roman legions. In the end, his great army was defeated by the Romans, having lost the invincibility guaranteed only by the favor of Hashem, triggering a horrifying massacre of Jews, and the crushing of the last Independent Jewish State until our time.
--- End quote ---
Chai:
--- Quote from: Yaakov Mendel on June 03, 2011, 04:31:04 AM ---Interesting to learn that he speaks badly of Breslov Chassidim. This confirms my sentiment. I am not saying that all Breslov Chassidim should be immune from criticism. But I take it that by "speaking badly" you mean something closer to lishon hara than to fair criticism.
Of course Rabbis are only human and, as such, even the most righteous of them have their own shortcomings and weaknesses. But I think there are certain shortcomings that are acceptable and others that are not when you are a Rabbi...
As Rabbi Baal Shem Tov, z''tl, said : "Every spiritual malady has a cure, except for pride".
--- End quote ---
Hey you know I met Rabbi Mizrachi in person. The Rabbi told me something interesting there is a great need for Rabbis today as good ones are lacking today and thats why he does what he does. I think his attitude seems like that to you because he was in the army . We as JTFers have so many enemies its hard to give people the benefit of the doubt but we should .
Also he has made many religious because he understands the masses today have short attention spans when it comes to Torah that why he makes jokes. I realize myself now that its important how we judge kiruv Rabbis on forums because it may be the spiritual life and death of a person that wants to learn.
He is very Internet savvy he once asked what benefit is there in criticizing rabbis that take time to turn jews religious (FOR FREE)
I think you will agree with me that we have lost many great rabbis with few to replace sefard and askeneaz ( Kahane , baba sali , rebi nachman , rav kaduri , Yisrael Meir Kagan,we even lost Binyamin Ze'ev Kahane! who can hold a candle to the rabbis i mentioned?
lets take what we can get.
muman613:
--- Quote from: Chai on June 10, 2011, 03:02:33 AM ---
Hey you know I met Rabbi Mizrachi in person. The Rabbi told me something interesting there is a great need for Rabbis today as good ones are lacking today and thats why he does what he does. I think his attitude seems like that to you because he was in the army . We as JTFers have so many enemies its hard to give people the benefit of the doubt but we should .
Also he has made many religious because he understands the masses today have short attention spans when it comes to Torah that why he makes jokes. I realize myself now that its important how we judge kiruv Rabbis on forums because it may be the spiritual life and death of a person that wants to learn.
He is very Internet savvy he once asked what benefit is there in criticizing rabbis that take time to turn jews religious (FOR FREE)
I think you will agree with me that we have lost many great rabbis with few to replace sefard and askeneaz ( Kahane , baba sali , rebi nachman , rav kaduri , Yisrael Meir Kagan,we even lost Binyamin Ze'ev Kahane! who can hold a candle to the rabbis i mentioned?
lets take what we can get.
--- End quote ---
I have nothing against him. I have nothing but ahavat yisroel for just about all the Rabbis on TorahAnyTime { Mostly Rabbi Mizrachi & Rabbi Aderet & Rabbi Wallerstein & Rabbi Schwab } and Israel National News {Including Rabbi Brody & Rabbi Richman & Rabbi Shafier}.
And certainly we don't have any gedolim like in the recent generations...
I have heard stories about Rabbi Kook who was the 1st Ashkenazi Rabbi of Jerusalem...
http://ravkooktorah.org/
--- Quote ---Rabbi Abraham Isaac Kook (1865-1935) – first Chief Rabbi of pre-state Israel – was a mystic and a philosopher, a preeminent Talmudic scholar and a Lurian Cabbalist, an original thinker and a saintly tzaddik.
Due to his poetic style and abstract thought, his writings are often difficult to understand, even for those fluent in Hebrew and well-versed in traditional Jewish sources. For the English-speaking audience in particular, his books are hidden treasures whose light has not been fully revealed.
I have not attempted to translate his works. Such an undertaking is beyond my capabilities. I am doubtful if it is even possible to lucidly transmit his ideas when constrained to a literal translation. Instead, I have tried to take an idea and present it in a clear, straightforward fashion. Of course, I run the risk of over-simplifying and even misinterpreting the author's true intent. Still, this is a sincere effort that I believe to be faithful to the spirit of the Rav's thought.
"Our master [Rav Kook] does not deal with the exegesis or the uncovering of hidden meanings in verses. He rarely takes them out of their simple peshat meaning. Nonetheless, they are revealed to the reader as tremendous novelties. The innovation here is not in the elucidation of the verse per se, but in the light that he pours over them."
Rabbi Hillel Zeitlin, Sifran shel Yechidim, p. 237
Rav Kook did not write a commentary on the Torah as such. I have collected ideas from his writings – primarily from his commentaries on Talmudic Midrashim (Ein Ayah) and the prayer book (Olat Re'iyah) – and organized them according to the weekly Torah readings and holidays.
--- End quote ---
http://www.ou.org/about/judaism/rabbis/kook.htm
--- Quote ---Great Leaders of our People
Rabbi Abraham Yitzchak Kook
(1865-1935)
The first chief rabbi of what was then Palestine, Rabbi Kook was perhaps the most misunderstood figure of his time.
Born in Latvia of staunch Hasidic and Mittnagdic stock, he retained throughout his life a unique blend of the mystical and the rational. He was a thorough master of the entire Halachic, Midrashic, philosophic, ethical, and Kabbalistic literature. But more important, he brought to bear the entire tradition upon the contemporary scene. He saw the return to Eretz Yisrael as not merely a political phenomenon to save Jews from persecution, but an event of extraordinary historical and theological significance. Rabbi Hutner once said that Rav Kook peered down on our world from great heights and hence his perspective was unique.
Above all, Rav Kook pulsated with a sense of the Divine. And, he sought to reach those who had strayed. He once quoted the rabbinic dictum that one should embrace with the right hand and rebuff with the left and commented that he was fully capable of rejecting, but since there were enough rejecters, he was fulfilling the role of embracer. On the other hand, he was never tolerant of desecration of Torah, as will be clear to any objective student of his life and works.
Though keenly aware of the huge numbers of non-observant Jews, he had a vision of the repentance of the nation. His concept of repentance envisioned in addition to the repentance of the individual, a repentance of the nation as a whole; a repentance which would be joyous and healing. He refused to reject Jews as long as they identified themselves as Jews. In a noteworthy exchange with his great friend, admirer, and opponent, Rabbi Yaakov David Willowski, Rav Kook explained the two components of a Jew: his essential nature -- the pintele yid, and the path he had chosen in exercising free will. Even if the second element were weak, as long as the first was not repudiated, there was still hope.
He called for and envisioned a spiritual renaissance where "the ancient would be renewed and the new would be sanctified." His vision of repentance disdained fear and apprehension and looked forward to "the poet of Teshuva, who would be the poet of life, the poet of renewal and the poet of the national soul waiting to be redeemed."
Perhaps he was that poet.
Rav Kook’s printed works to date are in excess of 30 volumes with many works still in manuscript. There are a number of translations into English of a small fraction of his works.
--- End quote ---
Kahane-Was-Right BT:
--- Quote from: edu on June 03, 2011, 03:11:12 AM ---If you do a little research on the topic, you will find that there are other generations,
that pointed to certain incidents that occured in their time or certain spiritual problems that occured in their time as "proof" that Messiah is about to come.
--- End quote ---
Thank you for adding some sanity to the thread. I'm glad I didn't have to be the one to rain on parades this time.
muman613:
--- Quote from: Kahane-Was-Right BT on June 12, 2011, 03:58:11 AM ---Thank you for adding some sanity to the thread. I'm glad I didn't have to be the one to rain on parades this time.
--- End quote ---
So you are saying it is not sane to believe in the arrival of Moshiach, at any moment? That would cast you on the other side of what Rambam has said about this command:
http://www.moshiach.com/translated-texts/analysis-of-maimonides-3-sources-for-the-coming-of-moshiach.html
--- Quote ---Whoever does not believe in him, or does not await his coming, denies not only [the statements of] the other prophets, but also [those of] the Torah and of Moshe, our teacher, for the Torah attests to his coming, stating,[3] "And the L-rd your G-d will bring back your captivity."
--- End quote ---
http://www.sichosinenglish.org/books/i-await-his-coming-every-day/03.htm
--- Quote ---Our faith and our yearning for Mashiach ? as the Rambam continues, "Whoever does not believe in him, or does not await his coming..." ? should therefore focus not only on his coming, but also on his restoration of the Davidic dynasty and on the complete observance of the Torah and its mitzvos.
In this context, we can understand the Rambam's intent in citing the prooftexts mentioned above for support. The verse that promises the Jewish people that "G-d will bring back your captivity" indicates that there will be an ingathering of the dispersed remnant of Israel. This will make it possible for the Davidic dynasty to be reinstated and for the observance of the Torah and its mitzvos to be restored in its totality.
--- End quote ---
And one more from Aish.com :
http://www.aish.com/sp/ph/48929482.html
--- Quote ---A WORLD WITHOUT THE MESSIAH
Realization of this Principle is not easy because it involves more than awareness and conviction. It demands feelings and thoughts that can only be the products of a very special way of life.
In his Mishneh Torah (Laws of Kings 11:1), Maimonides says: "Anyone who does not believe in him [the Messiah] or does not await his coming not only denies [the truth of his coming, as stated in] the rest of the prophets, he denies Torah and [the prophecy of] Moshe Rabbeinu."
What is meant by "awaiting his coming"? Must one think that he is going to come today? What if today is Shabbat or Yom Tov? Concerning this Principle, Ani Ma'amin states, "I believe with complete faith in the coming of the Messiah, and even if he should tarry, I nevertheless will wait every day for his coming." Does this "waiting every day" apply to Shabbat and Yom Tov, as one would assume?
Actually, our tradition tells us that the Messiah will not come on Shabbat or Yom Tov (Eiruvin 43b). Therefore, one need not anticipate his coming at every moment. What is more, in his Commentary to the Mishnah (Sanhedrin 10:1), Maimonides states: "Whoever doubts or minimizes his [the Messiah's] importance denies the Torah that attests to it." Instead of the need to await his coming, which Maimonides discussed in Mishneh Torah, here he warns against minimizing the Messiah's importance. It would seem, then, that "awaiting him" should be understood as attributing to him so much importance that one is aware of missing something, of lacking something every moment of one's life. It is not enough to know and believe in his coming; one must also feel and understand what it means not to have him in our world.
A world without the Messiah is a world of exile, where Jews find themselves dispersed amongst many nations. It is a world where even in the Land of Israel, Jews are subjected to the whims and values of other nations. It is a world in which terrible barriers created by spiritual apathy deter man from coming close to the Almighty, and where the opportunities to approach Him and to experience His presence in His Temple are gone.
--- End quote ---
It would seem from my perspective that to live in a world without the hope of the imminent arrival of Moshiach would be insanity...
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