Gender separation is sexist? The news media and the Erev Rav are the sexists!

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Listen... While the original incident originally involved these 'extremists' the issue has become a generic one of Jewish values versus modern 'values'.... Eventually we will have to take sides. I am with Chaim on this that while we must distance ourselves from those who perpetrated this event, we must clearly say that the Torah is our rock...

Let me ask you this KWRBT.... If you had your way here how would you handle this issue? I am open to listening to solutions to this conflict...

I would make it very clear that people who are doing these things in the name of Torah are wrong, the Torah does not support their behavior, and they should be condemned, and they are giving a bad name to the rest of religious Jews (haredim especially) who are NOT LIKE THEM.   It almost sounds like as a way to combat the media, these criminals are being excused for what they did.   That makes the smear of charedim even worse IMO and THAT is what plays into the media's hands because it's not stating clearly that haredim are not behind this behavior and are actually against it.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Chaim never said he sided with spitting on girls. You are imagining that completely. As it stands I don't know exactly what happened (in the original incident) and my guess is that neither do you. I find it very hard to believe that there is an organized group of religious Jews that sets out to spit on girls. Can you show me an impartial and real news source (meaning not Whoretz or Ynet or any international news report) that documents what exactly took place?

There is no such thing as an "impartial and real news source."   I know people in ramat bet shemesh.  I have seen reports in the past before this week and before the news blew this up. 
And a person would have to be really delusional to deny what is happening with regards to Orot.    Don't believe me?  So go visit Ramat Bet Shemesh and view it for yourself.   Other than that there is no way to "prove" it to you just like I cannot "prove" to you the world is round if you will automatically disbelieve any of the evidence.

In all the reflex reaction to defend "haredim" it seems the real issue is lost.  What is going to be done to clean up the actual problem.   I did not say "Chaim sided with spitting on girls."   I am saying that in some way by rushing to deny any of it ever happened or to minimize what happened, it is harmful to the victims and strengthens the assailants who the leadership in RBS already cannot control.

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

Listen... While the original incident originally involved these 'extremists' the issue has become a generic one of Jewish values versus modern 'values'.... Eventually we will have to take sides.

 

 I do not know if to laugh or to cry.
  What you are saying plays into the hands of the leftists exactly. You could not have made a better argument for them to fight against Judaism. Its us vs. them, Jewish values versus modern 'values', people who spitt at Jewish girls and scream whore vs. the secular culture. Come and pick which side you want to be part of? 
  Do we really want to put the debate and choice in this format?

[muman613]

 I do not know if to laugh or to cry.
  What you are saying plays into the hands of the leftists exactly. You could not have made a better argument for them to fight against Judaism. Its us vs. them, Jewish values versus modern 'values', people who spitt at Jewish girls and scream whore vs. the secular culture. Come and pick which side you want to be part of? 
  Do we really want to put the debate and choice in this format?

I am not the one who has done this.... The media has been covered with this story for almost a week. I have agreed with Tag & KWRBT about the basics. That is is wrong for these extremists to do this. There is not a question. But the irreligious media has made this into a bigger issue. I do not defend those who do things in the name of Torah which destroy Judaism. This is not the question in my mind.

The question is that now that this has happened how do we maintain cohesiveness within the religious Jewish people? I am sure that this issue will be used by the left for years to come.  My point is that it is best to be on the side of Torah, and the Jewish people who support the morality of the Torah. The issue of extremism within this community must be addressed but it is only one small community with a few dozen involved with the incident.

[Chaim Ben Pesach]

בס''ד

KWRBT, why are you reacting like that? I wasn't speaking specifically about you. I was speaking about the comments here in general. I saw comments calling the Charedim parasites who don't work, who don't serve in the army and who are anti-Zionist. I am not going to be silent in the face of such lies. I also did say that you are being used by the media. You respond by repeatedly accusing me of "evil talk".

I do not believe the media version of this story. The videos that have been created are also unpersuasive. Most of the videos were created by people with an agenda. The spokesmen for the Charedim deny the media version and claim that the media stories are lies and/or exaggerations. Since I know the evil Israeli media, I believe the Charedim.

I also know that Charedim live side by side with non-Charedim all over Israel and that the Charedim are good neighbors. If there were some incidents, I do believe that they were carried out by a small unrepresentative minority. There is no doubt that the media and the establishment are deliberately trying to blow this out of proportion and grossly exaggerate in order to smear Torah Jews.

Therefore the appropriate reaction is to condemn the media anti-Semites first and foremost. To turn this into a gigantic national scandal is absurd. It is the media smear campaign here that constitutes a national scandal.

This is exactly what the media does to Jewish settlers in Judea and Samaria, to the Kahanists and to all good Jews.

In the video which KWRBT brought in this thread, the Channel 2 "reporter" immediately turns the story into one about "religious coersion" and "what awaits us all over Israel (if the religious take over)". I see the anti-religious reaction of ordinary Israelis - the media campaign is working. I see rabbis and religious "leaders" reacting exactly the way KWRBT and TMT are telling us to react: by insisting that this is not Torah Judaism and by condemning the "extremists". KWRBT and TMT, your method obviously doesn't work - that's what the rabbis and the religious leaders have been doing for days now. The result is that Israelis are turning against "oppressive religion" and against "turning Israel into another Iran". The better reaction would be to immediately condemn the media anti-Semites and make it clear that that is the real story here.  

[Dr. Dan]

בס''ד

I'm really disappointed to see people here join the news media lynch against Charedim. Do you also want to join the mass demonstrations organized by Shimon Peres, the media and the feminazis? Demonstrations against "religious coersion" - as if that is the problem in Israel, when in reality there is constant anti-religious coersion and always has been. You decided to side with the media and the self-hating scum against religious Jews. You joined the anti-religious mob. I tried to warn you that this campaign against religious Jews is an attack on the Torah itself.

Whenever there is a massive organized media campaign in regard to religious faith or almost any other issue, it should be obvious what the objective is. I can't believe that anyone is stupid enough to think that the media is worried about the "rights" of Jewish girls. These Jewish girls should fear the media a million times more than the Charedim. And so should any Jew with an ounce of sanity.

You saw me confront Satmar with a video that has over 2500 views. But when the monstrous media is involved, I will never help these criminals stage a propaganda war against halacha and Torah.

Nobody here is supporting the media or the peressite.  To be truthful we are not condoning the behavior of that particular sect of charedi Jews.  And we agree with you that the media has ulterior motives that we condemn.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

בס''ד
rabbis and religious "leaders" reacting exactly the way KWRBT and TMT are telling us to react: by insisting that this is not Torah Judaism and by condemning the "extremists". KWRBT and TMT, your method obviously doesn't work - that's what the rabbis and the religious leaders have been doing for days now.  

I disagree entirely.  You said in your own comment that the haredi spokesmen have said the media is blowing it out of proportion or making it up.  So the response has been one like yours, not like I or tmt.   Its actually the typical reaction I have come to expect from the Jonathan Rosenblum types.  And that IMO breeds more hatred of religion, than if they would just condemn what evil is actually taking place, saying how un-haredi it is, in addition to condemning the media.

I would like to see the ashkenazi haredi leadership give their clear stance on the issues for once, which they seem to never do.

[Chaim Ben Pesach]

I disagree entirely.  You said in your own comment that the haredi spokesmen have said the media is blowing it out of proportion or making it up.  So the response has been one like yours, not like I or tmt.   Its actually the typical reaction I have come to expect from the Jonathan Rosenblum types.  And that IMO breeds more hatred of religion, than if they would just condemn what evil is actually taking place, saying how un-haredi it is, in addition to condemning the media.

I would like to see the ashkenazi haredi leadership give their clear stance on the issues for once, which they seem to never do.

בס''ד

I am not talking about the Charedi leaders. I am talking about the religious "Zionists" - the rabbis and the ordinary Jews being interviewed immediately condemn and immediately say this is not true Judaism. Even in the videos that were brought to this thread, "religious" Jews immediately start condemning and falling into the media trap. It doesn't work. This is what the media wants. And even the Charedi leaders who say these are lies and exaggerations, do not attack the media. It is long overdue to start a campaign against the evil media. The evil media and the evil establishment are the problem.

What you advocate saying is already being repeated over and over again even in the videos that were shown here. On the news programs, the media airs these condemnations even more.

No one is saying what I advocate saying.

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

בס''ד

KWRBT, why are you reacting like that? I wasn't speaking specifically about you. I was speaking about the comments here in general. I saw comments calling the Charedim parasites who don't work, who don't serve in the army and who are anti-Zionist. I am not going to be silent in the face of such lies. I also did say that you are being used by the media. You respond by repeatedly accusing me of "evil talk".

I do not believe the media version of this story. The videos that have been created are also unpersuasive. Most of the videos were created by people with an agenda. The spokesmen for the Charedim deny the media version and claim that the media stories are lies and/or exaggerations. Since I know the evil Israeli media, I believe the Charedim.

I also know that Charedim live side by side with non-Charedim all over Israel and that the Charedim are good neighbors. If there were some incidents, I do believe that they were carried out by a small unrepresentative minority. There is no doubt that the media and the establishment are deliberately trying to blow this out of proportion and grossly exaggerate in order to smear Torah Jews.

Therefore the appropriate reaction is to condemn the media anti-Semites first and foremost. To turn this into a gigantic national scandal is absurd. It is the media smear campaign here that constitutes a national scandal.

This is exactly what the media does to Jewish settlers in Judea and Samaria, to the Kahanists and to all good Jews.

In the video which KWRBT brought in this thread, the Channel 2 "reporter" immediately turns the story into one about "religious coersion" and "what awaits us all over Israel (if the religious take over)". I see the anti-religious reaction of ordinary Israelis - the media campaign is working. I see rabbis and religious "leaders" reacting exactly the way KWRBT and TMT are telling us to react: by insisting that this is not Torah Judaism and by condemning the "extremists". KWRBT and TMT, your method obviously doesn't work - that's what the rabbis and the religious leaders have been doing for days now. The result is that Israelis are turning against "oppressive religion" and against "turning Israel into another Iran". The better reaction would be to immediately condemn the media anti-Semites and make it clear that that is the real story here.  

Couldn't have put it better myself. This is a satanic worldwide campaign being orchestrated to brainwash the moronic people of Israel even more than they already are by demonizing religious people with values.

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

בס''ד

I am not talking about the Charedi leaders. I am talking about the religious "Zionists" - the rabbis and the ordinary Jews being interviewed immediately condemn and immediately say this is not true Judaism.

 But this has been said and going on before the media said anything about this.

[Chaim Ben Pesach]

בס''ד

Here is a secular Jewess spitting on a Charedi Jew for no reason. I can assure you that secular attacks on the Charedim take place far more frequently than the opposite. Are the media going to do hysterical news stories about this attack on the Charedim? Will there be mass demonstrations against these secular Jew-haters? Will members of our own forum open numerous threads and write hundreds of posts talking about how terrible this is?

http://jtf.org/forum/index.php/topic,59039.new.html#new

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

You call that monstrously ugly witch a "woman"? Get real Chaim, an Arab/hyena hybrid looks more feminine than that worn-out hooker.

[Circus Boy]

CHIEF RABBI OF ISRAEL ON HAREDI VIOLENCE ON TALKLINE TONIGHT  Zev Brenner Show
Date:    Wednesday, December 28, 2011 4:03 PM   
CHIEF RABBI OF ISRAEL

RABBI YONAH METZGER

“ HAREDI VIOLENCE IN BEIT SHEMESH”

ON

TALKLINE WITH ZEV BRENNER,
Wed Dec 28
9 PM - 10 PM ET
WSNR 620 AM METRO NY,
www.talklinecommunications.com

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Btw, here is an article worth reading, and I'm including an excerpt which has a message from the principal of Orot.

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/151164


An Educator's Response: the School Principal

Meanwhile, the principal of the Orot girls’ school has called for mutual toleration of different lifestyles and for focusing on the practical need for law enforcement services to protect the students from extremists.

In a letter she sent to the school’s staff and to the parents of the students and which was obtained by Arutz Sheva, the principal, Perahia Nahmani, wrote:

“In my humble opinion, we should focus this struggle on our uncompromising demands that the authorities provide total security to our children and any other citizens who suffer from the violence of the extremists.

“If we stay focused and target this struggle only against those who support any kind of violence we will gain the support even of the moderate elements in the hareidi community, as we have seen happening in the last few days,” she added.

“I believe that we should avoid interfering in the way of life of our ultra-Orthodox neighbors, and dictate to them which signs they may or may not hang in the inner streets of their neighborhoods,” Nahmani emphasized. “Lastly, but of utmost importance to me, is that we should not take part in the wave of hostility towards the hareidi community as a whole.”

Nahmani noted that “we have much in common with the hareidi world, in many issues we have more in common with them than we do with some of those who have volunteered to stand by our side today, but who do not always understand the reasons for our insisting on separating boys and girls in the school system and in activities such as swimming and physical education classes.”

The principal's words summed up the inherent contradictions in the media hype: the hareidim in Beit Shemesh feel the school is not stringent enough for them, but secular columnists have written that the school is as ''bad' as the hareidim - after all, it separates males and females, just like the hareidi buses and the minyan on the commuter train. The secular do not want hareidim involved in their lifestyle, but feel free to criticize religious Zionist and hareidi  lifestyles. They do not want crime labelled as "secular" when committed by the non-observant but brand the entire hareidi community for the acts of a violent group.

There is, however, one subject on which there is consensus: the violence in Beit Shemesh must be stopped by those in charge of law and order.




End quote.
I agree with the article that what is important here is protecting the children from harm and getting rebels under control.  Likewise, people from other places and politicians have no business being there talking about "exclusion of women" or other nonsense.

Also one thing I have not mentioned up to this point is that much of the problem can be blamed on the police because they have not done enough to protect the children and clean up the streets.
But that I think is reflected in the comments by the principal.

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

She (a National-Religious mother living there) explains it well.

[Dr. Dan]

בס''ד

Here is a secular Jewess spitting on a Charedi Jew for no reason. I can assure you that secular attacks on the Charedim take place far more frequently than the opposite. Are the media going to do hysterical news stories about this attack on the Charedim? Will there be mass demonstrations against these secular Jew-haters? Will members of our own forum open numerous threads and write hundreds of posts talking about how terrible this is?

http://jtf.org/forum/index.php/topic,59039.new.html#new

Nobody should be spitting on anybody

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

CHIEF RABBI OF ISRAEL ON HAREDI VIOLENCE ON TALKLINE TONIGHT  Zev Brenner Show
Date:    Wednesday, December 28, 2011 4:03 PM   
CHIEF RABBI OF ISRAEL

RABBI YONAH METZGER

“ HAREDI VIOLENCE IN BEIT SHEMESH”

ON

TALKLINE WITH ZEV BRENNER,
Wed Dec 28
9 PM - 10 PM ET
WSNR 620 AM METRO NY,
www.talklinecommunications.com

Chaim has said before Zev Brenner is an anti-Kahanist leftist.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

It's definitely possible that the police have been purposely letting this problem fester for months in order to use it against religious Jews.   That's not such a far out conspiracy IMO, that they had instructions from the top (in the israeli govt) to let the criminals do their damages so that the media could come in and pounce on it to the detriment of everyone.

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

It's definitely possible that the police have been purposely letting this problem fester for months in order to use it against religious Jews.   That's not such a far out conspiracy IMO, that they had instructions from the top (in the israeli govt) to let the criminals do their damages so that the media could come in and pounce on it to the detriment of everyone.

 I agree, I believe elections are coming up.

[Zelhar]

There is a school called Orot where the little girls are harrassed on a regular basis.  It's a real problem, and what is being done to stop it?   Denying it happens or encouraging the offenders, does not solve the problem.  That does not stop it, that makes it worse.     The criminals doing the spitting and cursing would fit in well with westboro baptist church.     I never EVER said that the criminals doing this are representative of charedim, in fact I stressed the opposite.

So how do you deal with such problem ? You can place a police patrol near the school. You can place a security  camera. Get the jerk who spits on little girls caught and put him in jail. You can counter attack and heckle the offenders near their places. You know these Sikarim are not exactly armed and dangerous. They behave like thugs but in fact are pretty wimpish, and their victims are not helpless sheep and they do have the law on their side.

[IsraeliGovtAreKapos]

I don't "wage Jihad" as you put it. And my points were mostly on the subject of the school situation in Beit Shemesh.
( I know Haaretz, but still its from Rav Melamed)
http://www.haaretz.com/news/national/top-israeli-rabbi-gender-segregated-buses-go-against-jewish-law-1.404200
"Melamed also stated that gender segregation is appropriate only during when performing “public acts”, and said that riding the bus is considered a “private act.”   "
 
 - Lastly I looked into this issue wayy before this even became a public issue of what it is now, and the Halacha given by Rav Bay-Hayim is that it is not needed.

So this is all you have? an Erev Rav clown who invites missionaries to Samaria and is a personal friend of their leader?

http://jewishisrael.ning.com/profiles/blogs/the-waller-family-making
http://www.yeshiva.org.il/midrash/shiur.asp?id=17125

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

So this is all you have? an Erev Rav clown who invites missionaries to Samaria and is a personal friend of their leader?

http://jewishisrael.ning.com/profiles/blogs/the-waller-family-making
http://www.yeshiva.org.il/midrash/shiur.asp?id=17125

However, that point does not really matter because there are plenty of rabbis aside from Rabbi Melamed who do not consider separate seating on buses to be a requirement.    Some people want that, and that's ok.  But it's clearly wrong to say this is required upon everyone.   Show me any great poskim of earlier generations who said this about buses!    The bus separation issue is reformism cloaking itself as traditionalism IMO.

[edu]

Rabbi Moshe Feinstein, who most Charedim accept as the rabbi who was on the top of their list of Halachic authorities during the previous generation stated that it is even permissible for men and women to travel on the subway during rush hour to get to work, even though there is a high probability that men and women will against their will, touch the opposite gender, when the train is crammed up with people.
See Even Haezer section 2 siman 14 of Igrote Moshe.
I bring this up, since the news stories about, certain Charedi activists demanding gender separation on buses, might confuse people on what are the basic demands of Judaism.

[muman613]

Rabbi Moshe Feinstein, who most Charedim accept as the rabbi who was on the top of their list of Halachic authorities during the previous generation stated that it is even permissible for men and women to travel on the subway during rush hour to get to work, even though there is a high probability that men and women will against their will, touch the opposite gender, when the train is crammed up with people.
See Even Haezer section 2 siman 14 of Igrote Moshe.
I bring this up, since the news stories about, certain Charedi activists demanding gender separation on buses, might confuse people on what are the basic demands of Judaism.

Do you have a link on the internet of this sefer?

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Do you have a link on the internet of this sefer?

Might be at hebrewbooks.org    They have a lot of hebrew sefarim, I would give that a try, unless edu has an actual link to it somewhere.