Anti-Israel Asher Meza attacks Chabad

[muman613]

Lets discuss this after Shabbat...

Good Shabbat..

[jewishwarrior]

Surely you jest. This is not what the Rebbe taught. This is not what Chabad teaches. It is clear that the Temple needs to be built at the place where Hashem chose. I can surely show you this is what it says on Chabads website.

I think you have exaggerated and misunderstood something because I know what you are saying is not true.

Please provide links which support your accusations because I don't believe a single thing you say without something to back up your statements. I know I can show you what a million Chabad Rabbis say about this...

It got worse as the years went by.

5751: The Lubavitcher Rebbe interprets the following Medrash:

"The year that Moshiach will be revealed, all the goyishe kings will fight with each other ... the king of persia will fight with the king of the arabs, and the arab king will run to the King of Aram to seek advice.... all the nations will be in an uproar and a panic ... and the Jews will be in an uproaor and panic saying 'WHere will we escape to?' and then G-d will tell the Jews: 'My children do not be afraid, for your redemption has arrived' WHen Moshiach comes, he will stand on the roof of the Bais Hamikdash and announce' The Time of your redemtion has arrived.!"

The Lubavitcher Rebeb interpreted that to mean not the Bais Hamikdash, but 770 Eastern Parkway is the place from where Moshiach will announce the final Geulah has arrived. Why 770? Because that is "Moshiach's house."

During the first Gulf War, the Lubavitcher Rebbe tried to fit the words of that Medrash into current events ("Aram" becomes America somehow - and Persia becomes Iraq!), and guess how the Lubavitcher Rebbe needed his interpretation

"It is obvious that these events do not affect Bnei Yisroel at all ... what the Jews ... have to know now is: Your time of redemption has arrived!" (Sichos 5751 p.284)

Yes, thats what Moshiach (or G-d) is going to announce precisely at the time when that Medrash is fullfilled. According to the Lubavitcher Rebbe, the Medrash was fulfilled, and guess who made the announcement?

And guess from where? 770 - the place Moshiach will announce it from.

So we have the right time - as described in the Medrash - the right place - 770 - and guess who's the right "person" in this equation?

More: The Medrash of course says that all this is going to happen "B'shah shemelech hamashiach bah" - when the King Moshiach comes. The Lubavithcer Rebbe stated then, "Hinei zeh Moshiach bah!" - Behold! Moshiach comes!

Uh huh.

"Nowadays we have not only the existence of Moshiach but also the revelation of Moshiach. All that we need to do is accept him."

Who exactly did he mean? How can we accept the revelation of Moshiach if we dont know who he is?

Obviously we do know.

It is the one, acording to the Lubavitcher Rebbe, who announces from 770, during the first Gulf War, that "The time of your redemption has arrived."

Guess who?

Of course, it was a self-fulfilling prophecy. Because the Lubavitcher Rebbe himseff pointed out: "Many signs of the Geulah have already transpired, beginning with the sign in the Medrash of [the announcement of] "Your time of redemption has arrived." (Sichos 5752 p.98)

Guess who was the one who made that annoucnement?

And to him that proves that "signs of the redemption" have occurred.

By "coincidence" that same person also happens to be the seventh Rebbe - Nasi, they call them in Chabad - Nasi HaDor - in the Lubavitch dynasty.

And we know that the Nasi HaDor is the Moshiach of the Dor, and that the seventh generation - during the seventh Nasi - the FINAL Moshiach will arrive.

And that Moshiach is the Nasi Hador -- meaning the Rebbe of Chabad.

Also, the Lubavitcher Rebbe added - the Nasi of Chasidus in the generation, since the Baal Shem Tov was told that Moshiach will come when Chasidus is disseminated in the world (NOte: The Baal SHem Tov was never told that -- the story meant something totally different, but in Chabad they make this claim anyway).

And guess who just happened to embark on a campaign of disseminating Chasidus because doing so means Moshiach will come?

Yup. Same person.

(The Lubavitcher Rebbe told the Dinever Rebbe that the main reason for his Kiruv campaign was due to that story where the Baal Shem tov was told that by spreading Chasidus, Moshiach will come - Kuntres Hachai yiten el libo.)

And guess whose Torah are being disseminated?

That's right -- the Tanya. The Torahs of Lubavitch.

And the Lubavitcher Rebbe was careful to explain: "we should learn .... especially the Toras HaChasidus, for through it Moshiach will come as per the story of yefutzu mayanasechah [i.e. - the story of the Baal Shem Tov cited above ] and especially the Torah-speeches and Likutei Sichos - of the Nasi of our Dor - a reflection and example and preparation for learning the Torah of Moshiach ... (SIchos 6 Iyar 5751)

So there you have it -- his Torahs - Likutei Sichos - are the Torahs of the Nasi Hador; learning them (i.e. especially them) - fulfills the spreading of Moshiach's Torah in the story of the Baal SHem Tov.

You dont need a rocket scientist to see who he clearly believes to be Moshiach.

More:

"We see that many of the signs of the redemption have occured ... and we see in actuality fulfillment of "and he will fight Hashem's battles [i.e. one of the signs the Rambam gives for being able to identify the person who is Moshiach ---- if he fulfills this, among other signs, you can safely assume the person who did this is Moshiach. We are not talking here about signs of the Geulah but rather signs of the Goel himself! ] ... it is understood that the shluchim are already established a long time after the beginning of the shlichus of .... 'hafotzas mayanos chutzah' [i.e. the story of the baal shem tov again --- moshiach's torahs have to be spread throughout the world according to chabad and then moshiach will come. He is saying that this spreading of moshiach's wellsprings has been happening through his shluchim] yet moshiach hasnt come yet. Obviously, there is something more we must do. And it is: As per the well known fact that there is someone in each generation form the seed of Yehuda who is worthy of being moshiach - one who is worthy by way of his righteousness to be the redeemer, and when the time comes g-d will reveal Himself to him and send him ... and according to the announcement of my father-in-law, the Nasi of our generation ...the only moshiach of our generation that everything is already prepared, and ... it is understood from that, that the only thing we have left to do is: to accept Moshiach in actuality, literally."   (same sichah as above)


There is no question that the Lubavitcher Rebbe believed himself to be Moshiach. He also believed himself to be something else as well. Here's a quote:

"This that a prophet has to have another prophet testify to his authenticity as a prophet does not apply to the Nasi HaDor, and to the extension of [the Nesius] in the next Dor through his talmidim - for he is assumed to be a prophet and does not need any authentication, rather, we must obey him immediatley and right away, even before he proves himself, and "it is forbidden to have doubts about his prophecy that perhaps it is not true..  rather, since it is known that this person is a prophet they should believe in him and know that G-d is in their midst and they may not doubt him - because they believe in the worlds of the prophet not because they are the words of the prophet but rather they are the worlds of G-d through this prophet... there is a[halachic] ruling as per the above, that we must publicize to every person in this generation: that we have had the merit that G-d chose and designated a being with free-will, who by his own right is infinitely greater than than the people of his generation, that he should be 'your judges' and 'your instructors', and the prophet of the generation, who will give rulings and instructions relevant to the avodah of all Jews, and all people in this generation, in all issues of Torah and Mitzvos, and also about general day to day living, and also about "all your actions" (being lshem shamayim)" (Sichos Shoftim 7 Elul 5751)

[muman613]

The Lubavitch Rebbe was a great man, a Talmud Cocham, and a spiritual light to many Jews. His organization is one of the most well known organizations doing outreach to the Jewish people. The Chabad emissaries bring the Jewish wisdom through education programs throughout the world. There are Chabad Rabbis teaching Talmud and Torah, and encouraging Mitzvot Observance from the Cities to the far Boonies.

I have said that it does not matter what was said about the Rebbe when he was alive. It doesn't matter if he thought he was Moshiach, as there is really nothing wrong with that {in my opinion as I will explain} as long as you have started to do the mission which Moshiach is supposed to do. I do believe that the Rebbe was doing a great Chesed to the Jewish people by making them Moshiach conscious. The fact that he died before completing the job just makes it clear that he was not the one to bring us into the Messianic age.

If you learned anything about this weeks Torah portion of Chukat, you should learn that Moshe Rebbeinu himself was supposed to be the Moshiach. If only he had not hit the rock, and if only he showed the leadership qualities which were needed for the generation which was going to go into the land, he would have been Moshiach, his Temple would still be standing today. Moses had the potential to be the Moshiach, the final redeemer of the Jewish people, but he died because he could not fulfill the mission which was needed to bring us into Eretz Yisroel.

Believing someone to be Moshiach is not a sin. Rambam clearly states in his 13 principles of faith that belief in Moshiach is a core Jewish value, and that we should await his coming every day. Most Jews today that I have talked to, from the progressive, liberal, reform, and conservative strains of Judaism have no desire to see the coming of Moshiach.

I know that Chabad does not teach that Rebbe was Moshiach. I have attended davening and Talmud study classes with Chabad Rabbis and have never heard anything which is not taught by non-Chabad Rabbis. I have attended many Yom Tovim including Purim, Passover, Shavuot, Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur with these Rabbis. I have been shown utmost Ahavat Yisroel by these Chabad shluchim {emissaries} including during hard times {my fathers death} and incredible Chesed/Kindness was shown during this period.

I will defend Chabad till the end. Nothing you can say will change my view, and I hope you have not poisoned anyone against Chabad with your lashon hara.

You know that Lashon Hara and Motze Shem Rah kills three people? It kills the one who says it, the one who accepts it, and the one it is spoken about.

Here is a very nice recounting of a meeting between Rabbi Moshe Feinstein zt''l and the Lubavitch Rebbe...

http://portraitofaleader.blogspot.com/2010/11/incredible-encounter-with-rabbi-moshe.html

The Rebbe's Letter


A letter from Rabbi Feinstein, dated Erev Shabbos Shekalim 5740, to the Rebbe appears in volume eight of Rabbi Feinstein’s Igros Moshe in which Rabbi Feinstein thanks the Rebbe for his help and mentions that in his youth, when he lived in Lublin, he had put on Rabbeinu Tam regularly. “I put them on after davening but on condition that it would be bli neder [without a promise]. But when questions arose about whether one could fulfill the mitzvah according to the view of Rabbeinu Tam, I did not do so anymore.”

Rabbi Feinstein humbly thanks the Rebbe for urging the wearing of Rabbeinu Tam tefillin. “And now, when I was informed in the name of the Rebbe that there are parshiyos of tefillin d’Rabbeinu Tam for me, to my specifications, this is a great thing, aside from being able to also fulfill the mitzvah of putting on tefillin d’Rabeinu Tam as I was accustomed to doing. As for the money, I thank Hashem Who helped me and will help me pay the sofer what he asks for, and the sofer will get good battim … and surely the sofer will also write ksav Beis Yosef.” Rabbi Feinstein ends the letter with the salutation, “who greatly esteems him [the Rebbe].”

A few days went by and Rabbi Feinstein received a response from the Rebbe in which the Rebbe acknowledged his letter and made some points about tefillin Rabbeinu Tam. In the letter, the Rebbe writes (free translation):

The Rabbi and Gaon… Rabbi Moshe Feinstein

[jewishwarrior]

The Lubavitch Rebbe was a great man, a Talmud Cocham

You say that I should not speak against the Lubavitcher Rebbe because he was a "great man" and a "Talmud Cocham (sic)". But that's THE WHOLE POINT of why I'm criticizing him in the first place! I am trying to establish and demonstrate that the man was NOT AT ALL a true Torah leader.

 It was not just the Brisker Rav and Rav Shach who said "awful things" about the Rebbe. It was not just "some gedolim" who had "some problems" with the Lubavitcher chasidim but that everyone respected the Rebbe.

Hello, _REALITY CHECK_! The universally recognized poseik hador, HaGaon HaRav Yosef Shalom Elyashiv, shlit"a, supported everything Rav Shach said, INCLUDING ALL THE PERSONAL CRITICISMS OF THE REBBE. (By the way, Rav Elyashiv is also a great mekubal, from a long family line of mekubalim.)

Other leading poskim and roshei yeshiva who have strongly condemned the Lubavitcher Rebbe HIMSELF (NOT just the chassidim) include the poskim Rav Shlomo Zalman Auerbach, ztz"l, and ylcht"a Rav Moshe Sternbuch, shlita.  I can include the following gedolei Torah from recent generations (in no particular order): Rav Aharon Kotler, Rav Yitchak Hutner, Rav Yaakov Weinberg, Rav Yechezkel Abramsky, the Gerrer Rebbe, and the Steipler Gaon.

The position of the Chazon Ish, ztz"l, on the Lubavitcher Rebbe is well known. The Chazon Ish once told the Rosh Yeshiva of Chevron that the Rebbe's sichos contained "apikorsus".

A questioner once asked Rav Chaim Shmuelevitz, "but doesn't Chabad do good things?" Rav Chaim's response? "So does the Vatican." On another occasion Rav Chaim said, "When you are dealing with avodah zarah, the 'good' is no different from the 'bad'." Rav Ovadia Yosef's position is also well known. Rav Ovadia regards many of the statements of the Lubavitcher Rebbe as LITERALLY ASSUR TO REPEAT, as "KEFIRAH MAMASH", and as INCITEMENTS TO AVODAH ZARAH.

Rav Henoch (the late Rosh Yeshiva of Chofetz Chaim), was a very moderate and soft-spoken man, and was not known for being a "kanoi" or for creating machlokes with anyone. So it is all the more striking and thought-provoking that he spoke with such fierceness and urgency regarding the Lubavitcher Rebbe.

Rav Yosef Ber Soloveitchik of YU did NOT regard the Lubavitcher Rebbe as a serious talmid chacham. Rav Soloveitchik frequently caught obvious mistakes and/or superficial thinking in the Torah learning he heard and read from the Lubavitcher Rebbe. Speak to Rav Soloveitchik's older, closer talmidim and you will hear the stories. I'd like to add that even many of those few who were sympathetic to the Rebbe did not regard him as a true "gadol" with high-caliber Torah learning.  Rav Yosef Ber Soloveitchik, who attended a class along with the Lubavitcher Rebbe at the Sorbonne, reported that the Lubavitcher Rebbe did not wear a headcovering during the class.

Take Rav Ahron Soloveichik (Rav Yosef Ber's younger brother). Even though Rav Ahron had a soft spot for the Lubavitcher Rebbe, Rav Ahron often commented that "in learning" the man "did not have the proper havana".

Because Rav Hutner had once learned with the rebbe when they were both much younger, Rav Henoch Leibowitz once approached Rav Hutner to ask him if the Rebbe was a great talmid chacham. Rav Hutner's answer was in the negative. As far as Rav Hutner (or any other great lomdan) could see, what the Lubavitcher Rebbe excelled in was merely in his "bekius" (his memory of sources), while he was weak in terms of "havana", of precise and deep understanding.

I've always found it fascinating that Lubavitchers always refer to their rebbe as a "great baki", and NEVER as a "great lomdan". We can see that results of decades of "leadership" by a man like this: A gigantic community where the highest form of gemara learning known is simply the superficial memorizing of page after page.

Rabbi Avigdor Miller said as an explanation of why he attended the Lubavitcher Rebbe's funeral, "He was not in his right mind for the past 20 years so he is not responsible for what he said."

According to MANY eyewitnesses who were present at the time, when one day Rav Chaim Shmuelevitz encountered a copy of the Lubavitcher Rebbe's "likkutei sichos" resting on a shtender in the yeshiva, he took it and THREW IT TO THE GROUND. This is a true and fully verified story.

Rav Belsky is the great talmid chochom Rav David Berger quotes anonymously in his book as saying that the Rebbe chose a different shape of menorah (according to the Rambam) because "every new religion needs a new symbol"

Rav Yechezkel Abramsky, ztz"l, was the first person who said that "of all different religions, Lubavitch is the closest to Judaism."

You have to understand that the Rebbe was actually continuing the misguided and destructive campaign begun by his father-in-law, the so-called "frierdiker Rebbe", Rav Yosef Yitschak Schneersohn. Rav Y. Y. Schneersohn, who had been regarded in the rabbinic world as a mediocrity in learning (to put it mildly), was so overwhelmed by the events of WWII and the Holocaust that he seemed to regard it as milchemes gog u-magog and he felt that Moshiach was literally imminent, and began the slogan "le-alter li-geulah!" 
    At the time, Chazon Ish and others sent emissaries to tell the man to keep quiet, and finally Rav Aharon Kotler and others put him in cherem here in America. The only thing that seems to have stopped him was the end of the war—with no moshiach (and possibly his declining health)..

After he died, his son-in-law and successor, the brilliant Rav Menachem Mendel Schneerson, announced that he was actually still alive (!) and would himself redeem as Moshiach.

Rav M. M. Schneerson also said that since his father-in-law had achieved a greater level of "bittul ha-yeish" than any other tzaddik in history (yes, including Moshe Rabbeinu), that his father would be able (unlike the Berditchever Rebbe) to resist the taiva to "leap into" gan eden, and would stand there, outside gan eden, refusing to enter until Moshiach came and would thus "blackmail" the Aybishter into bringing the geulah. Whatever.

[edu]

At http://www.ksol.org/image.asp?f=psak_large.pdf&d=11 is a Hebrew petition signed by hundreds of Chabad or pro-chabad Rabbis years after the death of the Rebbe, Rabbi M. Schneerson, still proclaiming the Rebbe to be the Messiah.
I would be interested Muman613 if you could ask the Chabad Rabbis, who you claim oppose the idea that the Rebbe is Mashiach to give their feedback about this petition.

[jewishwarrior]

You are making stuff up... Who said this? And where is there proof?

I am convinced, as several others here, that you are a troll... And all trolls should be ignored.. Unless you respond with some proof and sources to back up your claims it is clear you are just trying to make divisions.

I'm not making anything up.  Early in his career, the Rebbe said one of the most destructive and irresponsible things a presumed Torah leader has ever said in history.

When asked by his chassidim why asking a rebbe to help you is not a violation of the Rambam's 5th Ikkar proscribing us from "intermediaries" when we beseech Hashem, he responded that really there is no intermediary because "vibald oz dos iz Atsmus u-Mahus alein, vi er hot zich areingeshtelt in a guf"—translation: "...whereas he [i.e. a Rebbe] is the Being and Essence [of G-d] Itself, enclothed within a human body."  (first printing; likkutei sichos; yud shvat; hosafos, page 510)

It gets worse. He had prefaced this answer with the comment "Ich hob nit gezen es zol sich azoi rayden mefurash in chasidus"—"I haven't found this idea explicit in any [books of] chasidus." Of course not. Because it's ridiculous.

But in saying this the Rebbe opened the doors to foolish chasidim a generation later who would begin to use this "chiddush" of the Rebbe's as a sign that he himself was unique of all tzaddikim in history in being nothing but a manifestation of unadulterated Divinity. It is probably for this reason that R. Ovadia Yosef declared that the Lubavitcher Rebbe said things "which are ossur to repeat" and that the Rebbe was a meidiach es ho-rabbim—one who incites to idolatry.

It is presumably for this reason that the poseik hador, Rav Elyashiv rules that there is a shailoh on all Lubavitcher sifrei Torah, tefillin, mezuzos written since the Rebbe ascended to his position. (BTW, Rav Elyashiv holds the original cherem of the Vilna Gaon today applies to Lubavitch and Breslov in their entirety. See his talmid's (R. Moshe Turetzky) Teshuvos Yashiv Moshe, page 109.)

If you want to understand how the understanding that Lubavitch post WWII was dangerous and incorrect was nearly universal, look for instance at the book "Between Berlin and Slobodka", (by Hillel Goldberg) which mentions Rav Hutner severely chastising a former student of his for just sending his daughter to a Lubavitcher day camp, since they would brainwash her that the Rebbe was moshiach! And this was back in the 1970's!

Rav Hutner knew the Rebbe personally, having learned be-chavrusa with him in the 1940's. He knew his mindset. When the father-in-law died, Rav Hutner did not allow any of the yeshiva students to attend the levaya. He also ripped down posters and threaten to expel the kids in Chaim Berlin who were celebrating Yud-Tes Kisleiv. Rav Hutner was of the opinion that the Lubavitcher Rebbe was NOT a true lamdan, and possessed only bekius.

Some more assorted vignettes: It was not only Rav Shach. Think again. Rav Elyashiv supported Rav Shach every step of way. Rav Elyashiv himself wrote the Chabad rabbonim that he personally agreed with the charge that "the Lubavitcher was being oiker a mitzvah min ha-Torah" with his strange comments about sleeping in a sukkah. The Steipler described Chabad as "avodah zarah be-tumah" and said that "be-chol dor ve-dor omdim oleinu" refers to Chabad in this generation.

The Lubavitcher Rebbe encouraged the women in particular to follow their hearts and call him Moshiach. (They presented him with a tambourine with something written on it calling him Moshiach, and he accepted it and encouraged them further. Streaming video of the whole episode is available on Chabad websites!) And he explicitly indicated his approval when they read him the text of a "psak din" calling him Moshiach that had been read at the kever of the Arizal in Tzfas.

One of the most disturbing issues is the whole "novi" business.

The man seems to have thought he was literally a novi, and made constant and numerous references to this, declaring that he didn't have to perform the usual "osos" because he had "yarshenned" this status from his father-in-law when he became rebbe.

Many Lubavitchers feel that the Lubavitcher Rebbe was a navi.  (Every learned Lubavitcher I have met holds this.) Since they all know what he meant better than we do, it's safe to assume that he meant it literally, since they take it literally. Since so many of the Rebbe's "prophecies" did not come true, this hurls the Rebbe into the category of a Novi sheker. This is sad, frightening, but true.

As I have stated, Gedolei Torah (e.g. Rav Moshe Sternbuch, Rav Ovadia Yosef) have expressed their opinion that the Lubavitcher Rebbe was a Meisis uMeidiach (one who incites Jews to idolatry.)

Take, for instance, the much maligned Rav Ahron Soloveitchik from Chicago, who is brought by unscrupulous Lubavitch liars as a supporter of the messianic garbage they believe in. You want to know what R. Ahron REALLY said?


The following is from an article in the December 2, 1994 issue of "The Forward"--just half a year after the Lubavitcher Rebbe died:

"I don't believe it. I don't believe it. It is incredible," Rabbi Soloveichik exclaimed when informed of the words of Rabbi Butman and others in Crown Heights about the imminent return of the Rebbe as Moshiach. The world-renowned rabbi said flatly that "there is no possibility whatsoever" that Menachem Mendel Schneerson would emerge from the dead to be the Messiah.

"That could be possible in the Christian faith, but not Judaism.....Rabbi Soloveichik added that the mere suggestion that a dead individual would return as Moshiach is "repugnant to everything Judaism represents."...The late Rebbe, said Rabbi Soloveichik, "can't be the Messiah -- he is not living -- a Messiah has to be living -- a living Messiah, not a dead Messiah."

[jewishwarrior]

At http://www.ksol.org/image.asp?f=psak_large.pdf&d=11 is a Hebrew petition signed by hundreds of Chabad or pro-chabad Rabbis years after the death of the Rebbe, Rabbi M. Schneerson, still proclaiming the Rebbe to be the Messiah.
I would be interested Muman613 if you could ask the Chabad Rabbis, who you claim oppose the idea that the Rebbe is Mashiach to give their feedback about this petition.

Chazak.

[jewishwarrior]

If Chatam Sofer and some other major rabbis said that the vast majority of the Zohar is not from Rabbi Shimon bar Yochai I don't think jewishwarrior should make accusations against Zelhar on this issue.
See the english video, above, for details .

edu, do you know where i can find the full lecture?  because it seems like that video was heavily edited.  thanks.

[muman613]

As I said before Chabad does not teach that Rebbe was Moshiach. That is the truth in all my experience with Chabad.

The entire Meshichist issue is up to the individual. And I have yet, here on the west coast, to hear anyone suggest that Rebbe was going to come back from the dead. Nor seriously suggest that he was Moshiach.

Once again I will state that Moshiach is coming, and in every generation we have to have leaders who keep the hope for moshiach alive. I appreciate the work of Chabad and will not condemn them for their belief in the goodness of their Rebbe. It is not Rebbe worship, it is not avodah zarah.




Your hatred of Chabad is unfounded and I hope you will wake up some day soon and try to understand the beauty of all Yidden who value Torah and Mitzvot.



PS: jewishwarrior, if you are going to cut and paste things you should give attribution to your post. You just plagerized the work of Barron Phillip without proper attribution. I almost believed you wrote this, and you are trying to appear like you wrote this yourself.

http://www.hashkafah.com/index.php?/topic/399-weve-come-a-long-way-baby/page__st__20

[edu]

jewishwarrior asked me where to get the full lecture of Rabbi Wein on the zohar.
At http://private.b144.co.il/search.aspx?txtNamePrivate=%d7%91%d7%a8%d7%9c+%d7%95%d7%99%d7%99%d7%9f&txtCityPrivate=&txtStreetPrivate=&txtStreetNPrivate=&_private=0&_p=&_lang=HE
the contact information for Rabbi Wein is listed in Hebrew.
I suggest you ask Rabbi Wein directly.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

this is a lie.  Rabbi Berel Wein said that ALL lubavitchers believe their dead rebbe is the Messiah.

No, he didn't say that.  Don't lie to make your point.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

As I said, the fact that people believed he was Moshiach is not a problem, as Rabbi Akiva too believed in a Moshiach who did not materialize.

That's not a valid comparison.   Rabbi Akiva had good reason to suspect Bar Kochva might be moschiach, based on his actions - which would possibly fulfill the criteria for a messiah.   Chabadniks (and all Jews of any kind) HAD and HAVE no valid reason to suspect the Rebbe of Lubavitch was a messiah.   Nor anyone else today, for that matter.       

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

You lie! You donkey! We won't know who the Messiah is till he comes! What does it hurt to think someone might be the Messiah, as long as your not worshiping him? If you never believe someone could be the Messiah, how will you know to follow him? This forum is for all Jews, all Christians, and Hindus ect. You are nothing but a splinter that stalls the coming of Messiah!

In Judaism we follow halacha.   It is a problem to baselessly "believe" someone is a moshiach because that is unhealthy behavior and indeed causes major problems (as we see, a personality cult develops out of such irrational beliefs in individuals -  the prime example in Jewish history is Shabtai Tzvi.   But another example is with that percentage of present day followers of chabad who EVEN AFTER THE DEATH OF THEIR REBBE, still think he is messiah, or even say he is still alive).    So it hurts a great deal.

There are specific criteria a person would have to fulfill to even possibly be the messiah.   It makes no sense to think someone is messiah before beginning to fulfill any of those criteria, and it is in fact wrong because it distorts Judaism and essentially creates a new religion.    You will know to follow the messiah when he fulfills the actions required to be one!

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Rav Yosef Ber Soloveitchik of YU did NOT regard the Lubavitcher Rebbe as a serious talmid chacham. Rav Soloveitchik frequently caught obvious mistakes and/or superficial thinking in the Torah learning he heard and read from the Lubavitcher Rebbe. Speak to Rav Soloveitchik's older, closer talmidim and you will hear the stories. I'd like to add that even many of those few who were sympathetic to the Rebbe did not regard him as a true "gadol" with high-caliber Torah learning.  Rav Yosef Ber Soloveitchik, who attended a class along with the Lubavitcher Rebbe at the Sorbonne, reported that the Lubavitcher Rebbe did not wear a headcovering during the class.

Neither of them were enrolled in Sorbonne at any time.

The class was in University of Berlin.

How many other of your "facts" have you gotten wrong?   (Not to say I think you are wrong in everything you are saying- there were indeed dangerous things promulgated at the end of this rebbe's life).

[jewishwarrior]

No, he didn't say that.  Don't lie to make your point.

he absolutely said it, you liar.  i heard him say it myself.  i heard him  say it during a shiur in ohr somayach in jerusalem, and you can ask Rabbi Wein yourself if you don't believe me.   Rabbi Wein said that ALL lubavitchers believe the deceased Lubavitcher Rebbe is moshiach.

[muman613]

he absolutely said it, you liar.  i heard him say it myself.  i heard him  say it during a shiur in ohr somayach in jerusalem, and you can ask Rabbi Wein yourself if you don't believe me.   Rabbi Wein said that ALL lubavitchers believe the deceased Lubavitcher Rebbe is moshiach.

Well, mr lashon hara, Rabbi Wein is a liar... I know Chabad Rabbis who do not believe this. So you are calling me a liar...

In my opinion you are surely a troll here at JTF.

What have you come to JTF for except to embarrass Chabad? Your first post, to your last, has only been involved in this topic.

If there is anyone who should be banned here at JTF it is this 'jewishwarrior' because the only thing he has contributed to JTF is conflict and slander.

We all know which rabbis said what about who. I can bring, and have brought, several examples of great Rabbis who have said good things about Chabad. There is no debate what those who said against Chabad. This is sad but it is true.

I hear Rabbis saying other Rabbis are wrong all the time. Get used to it.. I just hear a Rabbi say that those Rabbis who go to Har HaBayit are committing an aveirah. I support those Rabbis, of whom I believe Rabbi Richman is one, and yet I still listened to that Rabbi and I still listen to Rabbi Richman.

There is a lot of hatred of Jews, from so called religious Jews.... This is not going to bring us redemption, fighting over whose Rabbi is right.

Im sorry 'jewishwarrior' but I don't think you have the ahavat yisroel which a 'jewishwarrior' should have.

BTW: Calling KWRBT a liar is very chutzpadik. You show up here all of the sudden and start on this attack. KWRBT has been a great JTF member, an honorable member, and you call him a liar.... You should show a little respect.

[jewishwarrior]

Neither of them were enrolled in Sorbonne at any time.

The class was in University of Berlin.

How many other of your "facts" have you gotten wrong?   (Not to say I think you are wrong in everything you are saying- there were indeed dangerous things promulgated at the end of this rebbe's life).

You are dead wrong, yet again.  Take it up with Rabbi Dovid Orlovsky at Ohr Somayach, who I heard this from.  He reports that Rabbi Yosef Ber Soloveitchik, upon being told that his classmate at the Sorbonne, the Lubavitcher Rebbe, used to get the gist of the lecture being taught in 5 minutes, and then spend the rest of the lecture learning Torah, said "He must have been learning Torah without a headcovering, then."  Apparently, the Lubavitcher Rebbe went bareheaded during his time there.

[muman613]

You are the biggest peddler of hearsay and slander that I have ever witnessed on this forum.

Chabad does not teach avodah zarah. Despite your hatred {which I suspect is driven by jealousy} Chabad is meritorious for helping Jews do mitzvot all around the world. You cannot debate this fact, you will search for more ways to spread rumors and lies against the Rebbe. It doesn't matter what some Rabbis think as they are not the majority of the Chabad Rabbis who represent the organization.

I suggest that this thread be left to rest. You have already caused enough damage to JTF through using it as a forum to slander a great  organization. I know you don't think it is a great organization but I beg to differ.

[Ephraim Ben Noach]

In Judaism we follow halacha.   It is a problem to baselessly "believe" someone is a moshiach because that is unhealthy behavior and indeed causes major problems (as we see, a personality cult develops out of such irrational beliefs in individuals -  the prime example in Jewish history is Shabtai Tzvi.   But another example is with that percentage of present day followers of chabad who EVEN AFTER THE DEATH OF THEIR REBBE, still think he is messiah, or even say he is still alive).    So it hurts a great deal.

But, is there halacha against this? If so how is it stated?

[jewishwarrior]

jewishwarrior asked me where to get the full lecture of Rabbi Wein on the zohar.
At http://private.b144.co.il/search.aspx?txtNamePrivate=%d7%91%d7%a8%d7%9c+%d7%95%d7%99%d7%99%d7%9f&txtCityPrivate=&txtStreetPrivate=&txtStreetNPrivate=&_private=0&_p=&_lang=HE
the contact information for Rabbi Wein is listed in Hebrew.
I suggest you ask Rabbi Wein directly.

i couldn't find his email there. 

[jewishwarrior]

You are the biggest peddler of hearsay and slander that I have ever witnessed on this forum.

Chabad does not teach avodah zarah. Despite your hatred {which I suspect is driven by jealousy} Chabad is meritorious for helping Jews do mitzvot all around the world. You cannot debate this fact, you will search for more ways to spread rumors and lies against the Rebbe. It doesn't matter what some Rabbis think as they are not the majority of the Chabad Rabbis who represent the organization.

I suggest that this thread be left to rest. You have already caused enough damage to JTF through using it as a forum to slander a great  organization. I know you don't think it is a great organization but I beg to differ.

Rav Hutner forbade any of his talmidim to attend the Rebbe's father-in-law's funeral.

The idea that the Lubavitcher Rebbe, a man who falsely proclaimed himself a novi and led tens of thousands of innocent Jews to false messianism (and possibly even avodoh zoroh), a man who in learning didn't come up to the toes of the giants who lived in his time (Rav Aharon Kotler, the Chazon Ish, the Brisker Rov, Rav Soloveitchik, Rav Ruderman, Rav Hutner, etc.)—the idea that that man was the "Nosi HaDor" may be the biggest delusion of them all.

When the Lubavitcher Rebbe told rabbi shlomo carlebach that he wanted him to be his "shliach," rabbi carlebach replied, "but i learn all day." to which the Lubavitcher Rebbe replied "stop thinking only of yourself." thus the lubavitcher rebbe ruined the life of carlebach by pushing him into the world of kiruv, which is something that carlebach was not prepared for. the lubav rebbe destroyed the life of an innocent soul in this way.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

he absolutely said it, you liar.  i heard him say it myself.  i heard him  say it during a shiur in ohr somayach in jerusalem, and you can ask Rabbi Wein yourself if you don't believe me.   Rabbi Wein said that ALL lubavitchers believe the deceased Lubavitcher Rebbe is moshiach.

Rabbi Wein is a smart and great man.   He wouldn't say something obviously untrue.    ALL?   ALL???  Not ONE SINGLE LUBAVITCHER doesn't believe it?   That's absurd!        Even if 90% of them believed that, (which I highly doubt), there would still be thousands among those who do not.   

I hope you realize that I can ask Rabbi Wein myself!    You are making a very stupid mistake here.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

You are dead wrong, yet again.  Take it up with Rabbi Dovid Orlovsky at Ohr Somayach, who I heard this from.  He reports that Rabbi Yosef Ber Soloveitchik, upon being told that his classmate at the Sorbonne, the Lubavitcher Rebbe, used to get the gist of the lecture being taught in 5 minutes, and then spend the rest of the lecture learning Torah, said "He must have been learning Torah without a headcovering, then."  Apparently, the Lubavitcher Rebbe went bareheaded during his time there.

LOL.   Then R. David Orlovsky is incorrect if you heard it from him.    Rabbi Soloveitchik was enrolled in University of Berlin.    So was Rabbi Shneerson.   In one of the philosophy classes that Rav J B Soloveitchik took in U of Berlin, Rabbi Shneerson was his classmate. 

There is a common belief among chabadniks that their rebbe was a student in Sorbonne, but this is a misconception and probably was based on an exaggeration to expand his reputation.  (His reputation doesn't need sorbonne, IMO).   Research has shown there is no record of the Lubavitcher rebbe as a student in Sorbonne.     
That doesn't take away from his obvious scholarly prowess, however.

And indeed it is well known that in different times of his life he did not wear a kippa including while in University.

Perhaps you need to ask your rabbi orlofsky where he got his information from.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

But, is there halacha against this? If so how is it stated?

Judaism does not sanction making up your own religion. 

I explained already the dangers of this concept and what kind of disaster it can lead to.

But it's common sense.   Why would I say "so - and - so is the moshiach" if there is absolutely no evidence that he is, other than the fact that I have a personality cult around so-and-so ?    It's common sense that this is not what Judaism is about.   

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

If this is indeed wonga, I'm a little surprised.  Previously, he struck me as a chabad messichist himself.   I think this is a different guy.