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Asking advice of Tzaddik (* What NOT to do)

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muman613:

--- Quote from: Ephraim on October 19, 2012, 07:33:21 PM ---I do not understand this...   "but you violate this too, and lie by telling others they may talk to the dead. Not only can the dead not hear our words, they cannot do anything. They know nothing, as King Solomon said, “for the dead know nothing.” (Ecclesiastes, 9:5) "

 What do they mean, the dead cannot hear anything, and they cannot do anything? So when you die your soul goes nowhere in just vanishes into thin air, that's it there's nothing else on the other side?

--- End quote ---

I am looking into what the commentaries say about this line in Ecclesiastes (One of my favorite books of Tanach)...

http://www.chabad.org/library/bible_cdo/aid/16470/jewish/Chapter-9.htm

Apparently the line is taken out of context. The original context is reproduced below:

4. For whoever is joined to all the living has hope, for concerning a live dog [it is said that] he is better than a dead lion.
5. For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing, and they have no more reward, for their remembrance is forgotten.
6. Also their love, as well as their hate, as well as their provocation has already been lost, and they have no more share forever in all that is done under the sun.

My basic interpretation is that this is saying that the dead are incapable of making any changes in the future of the world. They cannot accumulate more reward, and they are not knowing about the current state of the world. If their soul is forgotten they have no part of this world.

I will find what the sages say about these lines...

Here is Rashis comment on this line:


--- Quote ---For the living know that they will die: and perhaps their hearts will return on the day of death and they will repent of their ways, but after they die, they do not know anything, and they have no more reward for the actions that they do from their deaths and onwards, for whoever toils on the eve of the Sabbath will eat on the Sabbath.
--- End quote ---

It appears that my reading of it corresponds to Rashis understanding {that after death we are incapable of accumulating any more reward}...

Here is a story in the Talmud which relates this idea [that the dead are incapable of performing commandments, thus we should not torment them by going to the cemetery with our tzit-tzits (fringes) out..


--- Quote ---http://halakhah.com/berakoth/berakoth_18.html
18a
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R. Hiyya and R. Jonathan were once walking about in a cemetery, and the blue fringe of R. Jonathan was trailing on the ground. Said R. Hiyya to him: Lift it up, so that they [the dead] should not say: Tomorrow they are coming to join us and now they are insulting us! He said to him: Do they know so much? Is it not written, But the dead know not anything?19  He replied to him: If you have read once, you have not repeated; if you have repeated, you have not gone over a third time; if you have gone over a third time, you have not had it explained to you. For the living know that they shall die:20  these are the righteous who in their death are called living as it says. And Benaiah the son of Jehoiada, the son of a living21  man from Kabzeel, who had done mighty deeds, he smote the two altar-hearths of Moab; he went down and also slew a lion in the midst of a pit in the time of snow.22


18b
'The son of a living man': are all other people then the sons of dead men? Rather 'the son of a living man' means that even in his death he was called living. 'From Kabzeel, who had done mighty deeds': this indicates that he gathered [kibbez] numerous workers for the Torah. 'He smote two altar-hearths of Moab'; this indicates that he did not leave his like either in the first Temple or in the second Temple.1  'He went down and also slew a lion in the midst of a pit in the time of snow': some say that this indicates that he broke blocks of ice and went down and bathed;2  others say that he went through the Sifra of the School of Rab3  on a winter's day. 'But the dead know nothing': These are the wicked who in their lifetime are called dead, as it says. And thou, O wicked one, that art slain, the prince of Israel.4  Or if you prefer. I can derive it from here: At the mouth of two witnesses shall the dead be put to death.5  He is still alive! What it means is, he is already counted as dead.
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R. Jonathan also retracted his opinion. For R. Samuel b. Nahmani said in the name of R. Jonathan: Whence do we know that the dead converse with one another? Because it says: And the Lord said unto him: This is the land which I swore unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, saying.28  What is the meaning of 'saying'?29  The Holy One, blessed be He, said to Moses: Say to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob: The oath which I swore to you I have already carried out for your descendants.

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muman613:
The next folio of Tractate Berakoth is very interesting:

http://halakhah.com/berakoth/berakoth_19.html


--- Quote ---
Folio 19a

Now if you maintain that the dead do not know, what would be the use of his telling them? — You infer then that they do know. In that case, why should he need to tell them? — So that they might be grateful to Moses. R. Isaac said: If one makes remarks about the dead, it is like making remarks about a stone. Some say [the reason is that] they do not know, others that they know but do not care. Can that be so? Has not R. Papa said: A certain man made1  derogatory remarks about Mar Samuel and a log fell from the roof and broke his skull?2  — A Rabbinical student is different, because the Holy One, blessed be He, avenges his insult.3

R. Joshua b. Levi said: Whoever makes derogatory remarks about scholars after their death4  is cast into Gehinnom, as it says, But as for such as turn aside5  unto their crooked ways, the Lord will lead them away with the workers of iniquity. Peace be upon Israel:6  even at a time when there is peace upon Israel, the Lord will lead them away with the workers of iniquity.7  It was taught in the school of R. Ishmael: If you see a scholar who has committed an offence by night, do not cavil at him by day, for perhaps he has done penance. 'Perhaps', say you? — Nay, rather, he has certainly done penance. This applies only to bodily [sexual] offences, but if he has misappropriated money, [he may be criticised] until he restores it to its owner.
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muman613:
This article on Parasha Haazinu mentions the Talmud Berakot sections I quoted above with a little bit of commentary in an attempt to make more sense of what was said..

http://www.shemayisrael.com/parsha/peninim/archives/haazinu71.htm



--- Quote ---In the Talmud Berachos 18a, Chazal quote the pasuk in Koheles 9:5, "'For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing at all.'" Chazal say that this pasuk is a reference to tzaddikim, righteous people, and reshaim, the wicked. "'For the living know that they will die,'" refers to the righteous, who in death are also called 'alive.' "'But the dead know nothing at all," is a reference to the wicked who, even in life, are considered 'dead.'" Chazal's exegesis begs elucidation. The pasuk refers to the living and the dead. While it makes sense that the wicked do not really live, from where do Chazal derive the notion that the righteous are called alive even in death?
--- End quote ---

Here is more clarification of what is meant by "The Dead Know Nothing at all":


--- Quote ---http://www.jewishanswers.org/ask-the-rabbi-category/the-basics-of-judaism/heaven-and-hell/page/2/?p=995

What departed souls know

I would like to know a little bit more about our souls. When we leave this physical world and we go to the nest world, can our souls see what happens in the physical world? Can souls there see the past of the lives of people in this world?

According to the conclusion of a long debate in the Talmud (Tractate Berachos 18b-19a), the dead are aware of events transpiring in this world. Exactly how many details they can detect, I am not sure, but I expect they can see the important things (I don’t know if they’ll still be able to follow the Yankees). At least one authority understands from this Gemara that not every soul will be able to see down into this world after death, though. Only those who were concerned and actively involved in helping people in this world will merit the vision to keep up with those for whom they sacrificed while alive.As far as soul being able to look into the past lives of others, I’m not aware. But it would seem that we will be able to see our own past lives (for those of us who have had them) as part of our personal judgment process.

For further reading on the topic of our souls, the best source I’ve seen in English are the incredibly accessible writings of Rav Aryeh Kaplan ob”m.

Good reading!

Shlomo Shulman

--- End quote ---

Tag-MehirTzedek:

--- Quote from: muman613 on October 19, 2012, 07:00:24 PM ---Tag,

What you posted is a straw man argument, in my opinion. Who is claiming that the Rebbe was a prophet? Who is claiming he is a miracle worker? Who is claiming that we should pray to him? I have never seen such things, nor do I understand who the writer of the piece you posted is addressing.

As I posted above, there is a Torah precedant which says that one may pray at the grave of a tzadik, in the merit of the Tzadik. That was your original comment. What you just posted has no connection to this question. What this piece you just posted states is the obvious.

But why post it? Who is saying that we are supposed to pray to the dead? Could you please show that these ideas are expressed anywhere?

--- End quote ---

The first video for example. Listen to that guy and see for yourself. Their are others like him (and even worse) as well.

muman613:

--- Quote from: Tag-MehirTzedek on October 20, 2012, 07:18:48 PM ---
The first video for example. Listen to that guy and see for yourself. Their are others like him (and even worse) as well.

--- End quote ---

Shalom Tag & Shavuah Tov,

I have not watched the entire video but I did watch about 5 minutes of it. I suppose I should really watch the entire video before making an opinion I would first like to express some concerns.

It seems sometimes that you only rebuke those who follow these practices if they are Ashkenazi, or specifically Chassidic. The thing that concerns me is that not only to Ashkenazi and Chassidic Jews pay special attention to their Rebbes, but so do Sephardic Jews show such reverence to their Rebbes.

In that article you posted last Erev Shabbat, the 'attack' seemed solely aimed at Chabad, and Chassidus through Baal Shem Tov. But I did some research and found that there are several Sephardic Rebbes who promised miracles, and stories about miracles performed by these Sephardic Rebbes, and the reverence of their disciples who would regularly travel to the graves of the Rebbe in order to pray in their merit. But this is the same thing that the Talmids of the Chassidic Rebbes do... So where is the rebuke against these Sephardic Rebbes? Why only rebuke against Chassidus and Chabad? That is what I find troubling.

Let me quote things said about the Baba Sali, a great Sephardic Kabbalist of the last generation.


--- Quote ---The Baba Sali, Rav Yisroel Abuchatzeira ZT"L


This article originally appeared in Yated Neeman, Monsey NY. and is reprinted here with their permission

Rav Yisroel Abuchatzeira, the great Moroccan tzaddik, was commonly known as the Baba Sali, or "Praying Father," because of his ability to work miracles with his prayers. This title, however, actually originated with an incident that occurred in Rav Yisroel's childhood.

Unlike most children his age, the young Rav Yisroel never longed for toys or sweets. All he wanted was a new siddur, the kind with large, shimmering letters.

One day his father, Rav Mas'ud Abuchatzeira, brought home such a siddur. But he was reluctant to give it to Rav Yisroel, fearing that its glitter might divert his son's attention from his prayers.

Rav Yisroel offered his father a proposition. "Let's make a deal," he said. "You give me the siddur, and if I pray with less fervor, you take it back."

"It's a deal," Rav Mas'ud replied.

Rav Mas'ud never did ask for that siddur back. Rav Yisroel prayed with great devotion and eventually became a pillar of prayer on whom Klal Yisroel rested.

ILLUSTRIOUS STOCK

Rav Yisroel Abuchatzeira descended from an illustrious family of Sephardic chachamim and tzaddikim, beginning with Rav Shmuel Abuchatzeira, who was known for his piety and scholarship.

Although Rav Shmuel was born in Eretz Yisroel, he lived in Damascus for a time, where he studied with Rav Chaim Vital. In Shem Hagedolim, the Chida refers to Rav Shmuel as an "Ish Elokim kadosh. Wise people speak of his might and wonders in saving the Jewish community from many difficulties."

The Abuchatzeira family eventually moved to the Moroccan city of Tafelatlech, where Rav Shmuel's son Mas'ud served as a rav. Rav Mas'ud's son Yaakov, known as the Abir Yaakov, succeeded his father as rav of Tafelatletch. Rav Yaakov was a great scholar who was known to be a baal mofeis.

The Abir Yaakov's oldest son, Mas'ud, followed in the family's footsteps and became an av beis din in Tafelatlech. It was there that his son, Rav Yisroel, the Baba Sali, was born.

A UNIQUE UPBRINGING

Rav Yisroel was born on Rosh Hashana 5650, and grew up in a home permeated with Torah and kedusha. The examples his parents set had a profound influence on him.

His family lived on a large estate. One wing contained a yeshiva, where budding scholars studied day and night. Rav Mas'ud's beis din was situated in another wing, and Rav Yisroel's oldest brother, David, studied in a room on the other side of the house.

Young Yisroel was eager to see how his father and brothers conducted themselves at mealtime. However, he hardly saw them at mealtime because they ate very little, in keeping with their ascetic lifestyles.

One of the main lessons Rav Yisroel learned in his home was that one should guard his tongue and use his power of speech only for Avodas Hashem.

Once, when Rav Yisroel was 10, he encountered a group of children who were fighting, and he denounced the child who started the fight. Later that day, he recounted the incident to his father.

"I was so angry at those children," he told him, "that I nearly cursed the instigator."

Rav Mas'ud listened carefully to Rav Yisroel's story, and used it as a springboard to teach him a lesson that eventually became the cornerstone of Rav Yisroel's way of life.

"My son," he said. "You are destined for greatness, and one day, all that escapes your lips will be fulfilled. As a result, you must only bless and speak well of others, and never curse anyone."

From that day on, Rav Yisroel was particular to always guard his speech.

Rav Mas'ud not only trained his children to guard their tongues, but also their eyes. On the rare occasions in which Rav Mas'ud went outside, he would cover his eyes with his cape to prevent himself from seeing inappropriate sights. From this behavior, Rav Yisroel learned the importance of Shmiras Einayim, guarding one's sight.
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IMPACT ON NETIVOT

Rav Yisroel had a profound impact on Netivot and its surrounding settlements. Many residents of these settlements changed their entire lifestyles due to his influence and began to observe the mitzvos hateluyos ba'aretz. In time, the Negev began to bloom spiritually.

From the moment Rav Yisroel arrived in Netivot, large numbers of people lined up at his door, seeking his help. His prayers led to many miracles and resulted in great kiddush Hashem. Many people also returned to their roots as a result of his influence.
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--- End quote ---

And there is Rabbi Shlomo-Eliezer Alfandri about which is written:


--- Quote ---Rabbi Shlomo-Eliezer Alfandri

Rabbi Shlomo-Eliezer Alfandri, known as the Saba Kadisha, was born in 5580.He stemmed from a distinguished family of sages. His great-grandfather, Rav Yaakov Shlomo Eliezer, was the author of Mutzal Mi'Eish. His grandfather, Rav Chaim Shlomo Eliezer, wrote Maggid Mi'Reishit, and his father, Rav Yaakov, was an outstanding talmid chacham who passed away at an early age. His mother, Chana, also came from a prominent family.
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Appreciating his greatness, Istanbul's Jews founded a yeshiva for him, and many outstanding scholars studied there. One of Rabbi Shlomo-Eliezer's most distinguished students was Rav Chaim Chizkiyahu Medini, author of the encyclopedic Sedei Chemed, who was to become the chief rabbi of Hebron .

The Sultan Abed El Chamid was also very impressed by Rabbi Shlomo-Eliezer; so much so that he accorded him the title of Chacham Bashi, granting him the authority to issue amendments and edicts in the Jewish community.
 
The Earthquake

Rabbi Shlomo-Eliezer was once seated at a celebratory meal at the home of one of the most prominent members of Istanbul's Jewish community, when he heard two secular Jews discussing the "natural" causes of earthquakes. His face ablaze, Rabbi Shlomo-Eliezer rose from his seat and vehemently countered their arguments.

"According to your scientific theories," he cried, "an earthquake can't occur here at this moment. But if the Al-mighty wills it, an earthquake will occur here this moment, in defiance of the laws of nature."

At that very moment, an earthquake shook the entire city. And that was when Istanbul's Jews came to regard Rabbi Shlomo-Eliezer as a miracle worker.

In 5664 (1904), the elderly Rabbi Shlomo-Eliezer Alfandri resigned his position as chief rabbi of Damascus and moved to Eretz Yisrael. He settled in Haifa, where he studied undisturbed for the next several years. When the sages of Tsfat (Safed) learned that Rabbi Shlomo-Eliezer had made aliyah, they invited him to serve as their city's chief rabbinical judge.

Rabbi Shlomo Eliezer accepted the position, even though he was already nearly 90 years old. And he served in this position for nearly twenty years! He was referred to fondly as Sabba Kadisha, the "holy grandfather," a title he has already acquired before his decades in Tsfat.

--- End quote ---

And Rabbi Papo:

Rav Eliezer Papo, author of Peleh Yoetz and Damesek Eliezer (1785-1828). Born in Sarajevo, he led the community of Selestria, Bulgaria, and died early at the age of 41. He is considered the exemplary spokesman of the Sephardic musar tradition of the eighteenth century. He promised in his will that, “Whoever comes to my grave in purity after immersing in a mikveh, and prays with a broken heart, I guarantee him that his prayer will be accepted.” As such, his kever in Silestra, Bulgaria, is the destination of hundreds of visitors annually. His talmid muvhak was Rav Yoshiyahu Pinto.


Anyway, I agree that praying TO THE DEAD is forbidden by all authorities, and by common sense. What I often think is that because people don't understand why some daven at the grave of a tzadik is because they daven in the merit of the tzadik.

I was thinking about this as I was davening the Amidah today. Don't we daven every day in the merit of Abraham, Yitzak, and Yaakov? Maybe others may think we are actually davening to them, and not in their merit, G-d Forbid...

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