Torah and Jewish Idea > Torah and Jewish Idea
Asking advice of Tzaddik (* What NOT to do)
muman613:
It appears I am correct that he was discussed on Tamar Yonahs blog:
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/Blogs/Message.aspx/4602#.UIRRmSGRyiI
He was the most secular Israeli you could imagine. Alon Anava's choice of long hair, tattoos, and ear piercing made him look more 'rebel' than 'rabbi'.
"Religion didn't interest me, I didn't believe in G-d. ...I didn't have any interest in religion, even more than that, religion looked to me ridiculous, religious people looked insane, ...I didn't want to have any connection." As soon as he could, Alon swapped Tel Aviv for New York. He dropped out, and enjoyed his youth to the hilt in the city that never sleeps. He spent his time on drugs and partying, not thinking about the future. That was 9 years ago. Today, the earrings are gone, he sports a long beard, short hair and a big black yarmulke (skull cap) on his head - because he had a Near Death Experience (NDE).
He was riding with his girlfriend in the back seat of a taxi, when the drugs he took over powered his abused body and he succumbed. There he was, dead. His girlfriend freaking out in the taxi. He floated above them both, seeing his body hunched over on her lap. Hovering over and witnessing his death, thoughts began spinning around in his head and he says to himself,
"This is how Alon dies? This is like, ...the end? In a cab in New York? This is ...the story of 'Alon'? And it [a voice] tells me, "Yes. You're dead. This is how it ends."
Alon Anava will describe his meeting with what he describes as, 'The Black Thing' or the 'Angel of Death' and how he experienced tremendous pain -physical as well as emotional, in a type of 'hell' that he was thrust into from his NDE. He knew he had to change. How he changed is the dramatic story he will tell us today at 7pm HT (Holy Time) ;-) or 12 noon EST. Call in with your questions. From the USA, Canada & Israel, call toll free: 1-800-270-4288 or if from another country, send an 'instant message' (not an email) to: [email protected] (text your first name and telephone number including country code, and our engineer will call you for the show).
I suppose for my own sanity I should watch the original video, so I can judge whether he is right or wrong {according to my understanding} on this issue.
muman613:
Alright, this time I watched the 1st 8 minutes of the video and I have to say that I don't exactly see anything worth condemning here.
What he said was the truth, that there are those who believe that the Tzadik never dies, and there is Talmudic evidence for this belief. I did not hear him say that one should PRAY TO the tzadik for anything, I heard him say pretty much what I have been saying all along here, that we should pray that the Tzadik's merit be used to assist our prayers in reaching Hashem. This is what most Chassidic and Sephardic communities believe about their great Rabbonim. This is not something to be alarmed about. Not according to my opinion.
Also , KWRBT, this thread is not talking about who is Moshiach or not, just whether a communities Rabbi rose to the level of a Tzadik (A purely righteous individual who influences others to do good). I do believe that there are Tzaddikim in the world, and as a teaching suggests that the entire world exists in the merit of the 36 hidden righteous individuals.
http://www.oztorah.com/2009/08/36-hidden-saints-ask-the-rabbi/
--- Quote ---This fascinating topic of 36 hidden saints of each generation, the Lamed-Vav Tzaddikim, has four principles: The world rests on righteousness, especially on righteous people. They are often not aware of their own greatness: Moses “knew not that his face shone” (Ex. 34:35). If their greatness were known, the spell would be broken. Each generation has 36 such tzaddikim.
--- End quote ---
I believe that we need righteous individuals in the world in order to help those who are less righteous, to provide a way to envision what true holiness is. We do not believe that a Holy person is completely above nature, as the word Kadosh is often interpreted as being UNIQUE or SPECIAL.
Now for the Talmud which discusses the idea that Jacob never really died, even though the Torah says that he was buried and mourned. This is not the Kabbalah, but straight from Talmud Taanit 5b:
http://halakhah.com/pdf/moed/Taanith.pdf
--- Quote ---R. Nahman and R. Isaac were sitting at a meal and R. Nahman said to R. Isaac: Let the Master expound something. He replied: Thus said R. Johanan: One should not converse at meals lest the windpipe acts before the gullet and his life will thereby be endangered. After they ended the meal he added: Thus said R. Johanan: Jacob our patriarch is not dead. He [R. Nahman] objected: Was it then for nought that he was bewailed and embalmed and buried?-The other replied: I derive this from a scriptural verse, as It is said, Therefore fear thou not, O Jacob, My servant, saith the Lord; neither be dismayed, O Israel,- for, lo, I will save thee from afar and thy seed from the land of their captivity. 12
The verse likens him [Jacob] to his seed [Israel]; as his seed will then be alive so he too will be alive.
--- End quote ---
What I heard Alon say is that because of this idea, that a Tzadik's spirit never really dies, and that through the Torah which he taught to his disciples, and the example of Torah and Mitzvot he made to his students, that his spirit is alive and that the Tzadik can still assist his students after his death in this world.
I understand this, and don't see a contradiction to what the Torah has taught concerning not consulting the dead, or not using an intermediary.
Although I do believe it is wrong to put too much faith in a human being, because as the Torah teaches there is no man who has been born who does no evil. And as such even a tzadik has human failings. So I do not engage in these kinds of devotion towards a Rabbi. But I do have compassion and understanding for Jews who do feel a special connection to a person they believe to be holy.
I am just giving my opinions, and hope everyone is finding this discussion amiable.
Tag-MehirTzedek:
Muman if you heard his video and heard it well and still don't have a problem with what he said then you have bigger problems to resolve (for example the oneness of G-d).
I also cant believe you make it out to be a Sefardi vs. Askenasi thing when it has nothing to do with these "racial" if you will differences, NOT AT ALL. And Like I told you before I do and did criticize what I see wrong in the Sefardi world of "Mekubalim" yett you ask it, then ignore it and repeat the same line.
Tag-MehirTzedek:
Do you seriously justify the fact that he says to write to the DEAD Rebbe?
Check at 13:10 for example.
Or check the Title even before watching the video
"Asking the advice of a tzadik that has passed from this world"
muman613:
--- Quote from: Tag-MehirTzedek on October 21, 2012, 05:05:21 PM --- Muman if you heard his video and heard it well and still don't have a problem with what he said then you have bigger problems to resolve (for example the oneness of G-d).
I also cant believe you make it out to be a Sefardi vs. Askenasi thing when it has nothing to do with these "racial" if you will differences, NOT AT ALL. And Like I told you before I do and did criticize what I see wrong in the Sefardi world of "Mekubalim" yett you ask it, then ignore it and repeat the same line.
--- End quote ---
Please tell me at what point you feel he says to pray to the tzadik? I have said that I find the belief of praying in the merit of a tzadik as supported by valid Talmudic sources.
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