Torah and Jewish Idea > Torah and Jewish Idea
Asking advice of Tzaddik (* What NOT to do)
muman613:
--- Quote from: Tag-MehirTzedek on October 20, 2012, 11:15:13 PM ---"His prayers led to many miracles and resulted in great kiddush Hashem. Many people also returned to their roots as a result of his influence."
Notice it is HIS prayers, and not Prayers TO him.
then you say
"Anyway, I agree that praying TO THE DEAD is forbidden by all authorities, and by common sense. What I often think is that because people don't understand why some daven at the grave of a tzadik is because they daven in the merit of the tzadik."
Then where is the argument, you are only agreeing with me, but I guess you have an issue if I'm not being fair enough with the "Askenasi vs. Sefardi" ?
--- End quote ---
Yes, my primary concern is that it seems to me {and I may be wrong} that you seem to only be concerned with Ashkenazi or Chassidic groups which do things which seem against the Torah.
This is why I bring examples that this practice, of praying at graves, is not only a Chassidic thing. And my other point is that often praying at a grave is not praying to the tzadik, or asking him for things, but asking Hashem to grant us our request in the merit of the Tzadik.
In the movie Ushpizin, when the wife is davening for a miracle, she mentions Rabbi Nachman in her prayer, and I am pretty sure she did not ask Rebbe Nachman, but said something along the lines of asking Hashem in the merit of Rebbe Nachman {but I will check this again}...
PS: My point was about 'miracle workers' because one article you posted seemed to say that only the miracle which we all witnessed is a miracle which can be believed. And I argued against that in several of my posts above this.
muman613:
I just checked the movie (if it really matters?) and I was right... Here is what Mrs Belanga said in her prayer for a miracle...
"Our Holy Rebbe Nachman, from Breslev, G-d Almighty, in his virtue , hear our prayer, give us a miracle..."
When I hear that I have no problem understanding that she is not praying TO Rebbe Nachman, but she mentions his name in the hopes that his merit will cause her prayers to be heard.
Kahane-Was-Right BT:
--- Quote from: muman613 on October 19, 2012, 07:00:24 PM ---Tag,
What you posted is a straw man argument, in my opinion. Who is claiming that the Rebbe was a prophet? Who is claiming he is a miracle worker? Who is claiming that we should pray to him? I have never seen such things, nor do I understand who the writer of the piece you posted is addressing.
--- End quote ---
It is not a straw man argument. The person who wrote in his question (named Ariel) made the argument. People like him really do exist. There are websites devoted to this. There are many people like him in Israel. They openly express their beliefs and display their flags proudly (unlike in chutz laaretz where they usually do not openly admit these beliefs or don't advertise it).
The fact that you continue to deny such people exist absolutely astoundsme. What are you afraid of exactly? And if tag is just "stating the obvious" according to you, then what's the problem? The "obvious" can't be stated? Its clearly not obvious to those who share ariel's beliefs and so too it may not be obvious to beginners or more secular Jews who could be confused by what they hear from meshichists. Some of the stuff you post is "obvious" to very learned Jews or even to yourself. Other stuff is less known. But to a beginner reading here NONE of it is obvious, and you are helping inform such a person. Tag is helping inform people on this issue. The fact that its so basic is why its so very important to stress and clarify these matters. So I suggest to stop obstructing discussion of these issues.
muman613:
--- Quote from: Kahane-Was-Right BT on October 21, 2012, 02:37:58 PM ---It is not a straw man argument. The person who wrote in his question (named Ariel) made the argument. People like him really do exist. There are websites devoted to this. There are many people like him in Israel. They openly express their beliefs and display their flags proudly (unlike in chutz laaretz where they usually do not openly admit these beliefs or don't advertise it).
The fact that you continue to deny such people exist absolutely astoundsme. What are you afraid of exactly? And if tag is just "stating the obvious" according to you, then what's the problem? The "obvious" can't be stated? Its clearly not obvious to those who share ariel's beliefs and so too it may not be obvious to beginners or more secular Jews who could be confused by what they hear from meshichists. Some of the stuff you post is "obvious" to very learned Jews or even to yourself. Other stuff is less known. But to a beginner reading here NONE of it is obvious, and you are helping inform such a person. Tag is helping inform people on this issue. The fact that its so basic is why its so very important to stress and clarify these matters. So I suggest to stop obstructing discussion of these issues.
--- End quote ---
Shalom KWRBT,
I do not deny that there are those who believe these things. I have addressed this before and I will say it again here. I have discussed this issue with my Rabbis and it concerned me greatly. It is my belief that Moshiach will come, and it may be soon, but I am sure that he has not already arrived and died.
The question then is this. What do we do about those who do believe these things? I am sure that my personal Rabbis, and I have a good relation with three Chabad Rabbis at this time, do not believe that the Rebbe is Moshiach. Those who are saying things which run against the more rational teachings of the Torah must be silenced gently. What am I saying here? Only that we should point out their error without being cruel or arrogant in our rebuke. Isn't it taught that we should only rebuke our brothers and sisters if they will be willing to listen to the rebuke, and how to ensure this, to not be unfair in judgement?
As I stated above, my issue with this whole thread is primarily the appearance that only Chabad and Chassidut were the ones engaging in these practices. While I pointed out that there are similar things which the Sephardic Jews do and yet I see little criticism of such practices.
Having made these points I would also like to point out that I am not 'obstructing' or 'attempting to prevent discussion', I am simply trying to make clear that these threads seem overly judgmental of the Ashkenazi Jews often giving few examples of non-Ashkenazi Jewry.
Aside from that I said I agree that TALKING or PRAYING to the dead is forbidden by the Torah. As I also posted there is Talmudic evidence that praying in the merit of a tzadik is permitted.
muman613:
I just looked into the guy who made the video Tag posted, as the example, and it seems that he has an interesting story. I think I heard about him on a Tamar Yonah show or something (I may be mistaken)....
I don't think he is Chabad, though I don't know what Yeshiva he claims to go to....
--- Quote ---After a near death experience Alon Anava has changed his life from one end to the other.
Alon Anava is a man blessed with a wide scope of talents. He has an artistic as well as an entrepreneurial spirit that have allowed him to be successful as an artist and as a businessman. He possesses vision paired the ability to realize that vision through focus and determination.
Alon is currently a successful Photographer and web developer.
Alon grew up in Ra'anana, Israel, where he was intensely trained in martial arts. He later pursued his training in Denmark under the tutelage of one of the greatest fighters known day. Through intense training, Alon further developed his innate ability to be in control of his environment. Where others might break under pressure, Alon Anava thrives and rises above all chaos maintaining balance at all times. He radiates a sense of completeness and humility without any false pretense whatsoever. In other words, 'what you see is what you get'.
This was not always the case. Before his life-altering experience, Alon would describe himself as simply put, not nice. After facing death, and realizing the purpose of life, Alon transformed his very being. He diligently attends Yeshiva studying every day, exploring the depths of Torah, refining and elevating himself on a daily basis.
Alon has come back with a gift. He is able to connect to our creator in a very intimate way, allowing him to also connect intimately with others and really help them overcome their questions and concerns.
During his free time, he spends his time sharing his story in an attempt to make it as real for you as it is for him. Our hope is that you as the listener will absorb Alon's story and wake up to the reality of this world. We hope that you will have the strength within you to rise above what seems like the prevailing darkness and choose light. We encourage you to connect to your maker and begin your spiritual journey to better yourself and humanity as a whole. We encourage you to see the miracle of you!
--- End quote ---
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