Torah and Jewish Idea > Torah and Jewish Idea
Asking advice of Tzaddik (* What NOT to do)
muman613:
I disagree with Rambam and this rabbi on several topics.
The revealed miracle is a change in the natural laws, so that we can see the hand of Hashem revealed in this world. We learn that the generation of the Exodus witnessed things at Mount Sinai which even the highest prophet was unable to see. The splitting of the sea was so powerful that even the hand-maid said "This is my G-d" and pointed with their finger, so much they could feel the presence of Hashem.
The Jew is above the natural law. This is learned from next weeks Parasha where G-d takes Abraham out of his tent, and tells him to count the stars, the point being that the Jewish people are above the stars {and through this we learn that all of Israel has no Mazal {The Astrology has no real power over the Jew}}.
--- Quote ---http://www.chabad.org/kabbalah/article_cdo/aid/578569/jewish/Above-the-Stars.htm
"Mazal" does not mean "luck", as is usually understood. Rather it refers to the sefira of keter from which divine energy flows forth (in Hebrew, "nozel", directly related to the word "mazal") to the other sefirot, and ultimately to the physical world. The practical implications of this outflow can be foretold using the science of astrology (as known to the Sages), which examines the position of the heavenly constellations (mazalot) at the time of a person's birth.
We deduce that Abraham saw in his constellation that he would not have a son. But the Holy One "took him outside", which the Rabbis interpret as meaning: "Dissociate yourself from your astrological predictions." He thus raised Abraham above the stars [i.e. beyond the realm of reason and nature] and told him, "Now gaze at the heavens and count the stars…," promising him that his offspring would be as numerous as the stars.
We must now explain these words of the Rabbis: Before the Torah was given to Israel all creatures were dependent upon their mazal, including children, health and livelihood. But when G-d gave the Torah to Israel, He removed the control of the stars and constellations over them [for the Torah itself transcends the world].
This we learn from Abraham, for his descendants would in the future receive the [Hebrew letter] hei from his name, alluding to the five books of the Torah.
--- End quote ---
I do believe that there is power of the stars over the activities of man. It is a rational belief, not an irrational one as some suggest. It is obvious that everything in the world has some influence over other things, we are all inter-related. To say that my neighbor doesn't have influence over me and my world is ignoring the fact that we don't exist in a vacuum.
Our planet is influenced by gravitational forces, by x-ray radiation, and spiritual forces which we cannot even measure. Science has only recently discovered some of these forces, and even the quantum physics are discovering forces which have an effect on all of life. The fact is that these are natural forces. Hashem has instructed us, the Jewish people, to not rely on these natural forces, and to look to him to be able to save us from the effects of nature.
So I disagree with a good deal of what was posted above..
Here is Rabbi Lazer Brody explaining some of these ideas (in relation to the miracle of Purim):
http://www.breslev.co.il/video-stream/asx/brody51.asx
Tag-MehirTzedek:
Ephrain- What, What and again what? I didnt understand anything you said.
Muman-You contradict yourself from what you said in the beginning (of the last post) and later on in that same post.
"The splitting of the sea was so powerful that even the hand-maid said "This is my G-d" and pointed with their finger, so much they could feel the presence of Hashem."
Exactly it was G-D and not no star or constellation. That is precisely the point.
"{The Astrology has no real power over the Jew}}."
Great point. and you know why? First off even by your claims the astrologers have no real power period. It is the stars that supposedly do. Secondly your answer, answers the point. The astrologers have no real power, and real power over the Jew because the Jew is not supposed to believe in their soo-called "power". They are powerless, and the only "power" that they do get is the power of influence on the people's mind's that accept their influence. It is very connected to the "power of suggestion" if you will. That is why a Jew who follows the Torah and realizes that this is non-sense cannot be influences by them in the slightest way. The nations of the world, traditionally believed in all of these "powers" and the vast majority were literally star worshipers. It is those silly beliefs that actually gave "power" to the astrologers and those who spoke and speak cryptically with things extremely open to interpretation.
Tag-MehirTzedek:
--- Quote from: muman613 on October 24, 2012, 09:58:51 PM ---I disagree with Rambam and this rabbi on several topics.
--- End quote ---
Disagreement of the Rambam on this is not just a matter of outlook. It also deals in the realm of Halacha and the RambaM and sefer Hachinuch for example bring things connected to this in the laws against "Avoda Zara" -foreign worship. p.s. ( I know their are those who try to claim, well avoda zara is real, but we are not allowed to "tap into that power" I heard this first hand from a "rabbi") What a foolish statement, because our Torah ridicules anything and everything connected to idolatry in the extreme.
muman613:
--- Quote from: Tag-MehirTzedek on October 24, 2012, 10:24:36 PM ---
Muman-You contradict yourself from what you said in the beginning (of the last post) and later on in that same post.
"The splitting of the sea was so powerful that even the hand-maid said "This is my G-d" and pointed with their finger, so much they could feel the presence of Hashem."
Exactly it was G-D and not no star or constellation. That is precisely the point.
"{The Astrology has no real power over the Jew}}."
Great point. and you know why? First off even by your claims the astrologers have no real power period. It is the stars that supposedly do. Secondly your answer, answers the point. The astrologers have no real power, and real power over the Jew because the Jew is not supposed to believe in their soo-called "power". They are powerless, and the only "power" that they do get is the power of influence on the people's mind's that accept their influence. It is very connected to the "power of suggestion" if you will. That is why a Jew who follows the Torah and realizes that this is non-sense cannot be influences by them in the slightest way. The nations of the world, traditionally believed in all of these "powers" and the vast majority were literally star worshipers. It is those silly beliefs that actually gave "power" to the astrologers and those who spoke and speak cryptically with things extremely open to interpretation.
--- End quote ---
Shalom Tag,
Im sorry you feel I contradicted myself, but obviously that could not be the case. What it seems is that I was not clear enough to express my thought to you.
1) I have never discussed 'Astrologers' or those who engage in Astrology. I am just pointing out that I do believe that there is a thing called 'Mazel' or an influence on this world by the Constellations and Heavenly bodies.
2) I do not consult the stars, nor do I ascribe any power of their own to them. My belief is not avoda zara but the belief that everything Hashem created is inter-related and has an influence on its surroundings, both physically and spiritually.
3) I was trying to explain, against what it seems the Rabbi you posted says, that miracles are not just the big events which the Torah brings (such as the Abraham being rescued from the fiery furnace, or the fact that Noah was able to fit all the animals in the Teivah, or even the Ten Plagues and the Splitting of the Sea). Miracles happen at a personal level (at least according to my experience) if a person merits such providence in the 'eye' of Hashem.
So let me re-iterate my understanding, in case there is confusion:
1) It is PROHIBITED to consult with the dead, this is clear from the commandments.
2) It is PROHIBITED to consult the stars, or other ways of discovering the future, as this too is a clear commandment.
3) It is PERMITTED for a Jew to pray to Hashem in the merit of a righteous Jew.
4) The Jew must have absolute trust and faith in Hashem which is why, according to my understanding, that we are prohibited from engaging in the practices the nations engage in to determine providence. A Jew can, through Teshuva, alter any 'decree' which Hashem has on our people {this too is learned from Purim}.
If I have not been clear about my understanding, please allow me to clarify.
Thank you,
Kahane-Was-Right BT:
--- Quote from: Ephraim on October 24, 2012, 07:38:27 PM --- KWRBT, I was talking about two different things. What I'm wondering is if Rambams interpretation of the Talmud may have been influenced by the times in which he lived, or he was competing with other Jewish scholars, and he didn't know anything about astrology or Kabbalah, therefore he put a negative spin on it.
Just a thought...
--- End quote ---
There is nothing up for debate about there being such a thing as minim and a role for such people in halacha.
About astrology: if I remember correctly, there were statements throughout the Talmud, some in acceptance of astrology or at least seemingly certain aspects of it, and some clearly against. Rambam used his sound judgment to reject astrology entirely as a worthless endeavor. And he was way ahead of his time intellectually. It was only in a later period in history that the world at large came to reject astrology as a baseless "witch craft" like farce and not real science.
Rambam described "kabalah" as the transmission of the Oral Torah (ie talmud and mishnaic halachic parameters were the kabalah accepted by the Jewish people upon themselves). Kabalah you refer to and referred to today is something else entirely. He could certainly be unaware of something that was not in written form until at least a century after he died! But the presumption of certain people that had he become aware of the modern day kabalah he would "accept it" is absurd. He had his own hashkafic system and not all of us have to follow the worldview of modern day kaballah. And he very clearly did not preach those concepts.
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