Author Topic: Rav Ovadia Yosef the spiritual leaders of shas is dead  (Read 69371 times)

0 Members and 2 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline muman613

  • Platinum JTF Member
  • **********
  • Posts: 29958
  • All souls praise Hashem, Hallelukah!
    • muman613 Torah Wisdom
Re: Rav Ovadia Yosef the spiritual leaders of shas is dead
« Reply #100 on: October 08, 2013, 05:05:03 PM »
The issue of this thread was the death of Rabbi Ovadia Yosef, not to discuss Shas.

I agree with Chaim that nobody should curse the Rabbi as we are supposed to show respect to those who study Torah.

You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks

  • Honorable Winged Member
  • Gold Star JTF Member
  • *
  • Posts: 23384
  • Real Kahanist
Re: Rav Ovadia Yosef the spiritual leaders of shas is dead
« Reply #101 on: October 08, 2013, 05:07:09 PM »
The issue of this thread was the death of Rabbi Ovadia Yosef, not to discuss Shas.

I agree with Chaim that nobody should curse the Rabbi as we are supposed to show respect to those who study Torah.
Chaim was pointing out that Rabbi Ovadia Yosef was the real driving force between Shas. He was the inspiration behind its leaders and its philosophy.

Offline muman613

  • Platinum JTF Member
  • **********
  • Posts: 29958
  • All souls praise Hashem, Hallelukah!
    • muman613 Torah Wisdom
Re: Rav Ovadia Yosef the spiritual leaders of shas is dead
« Reply #102 on: October 08, 2013, 05:08:56 PM »
Chaim was pointing out that Rabbi Ovadia Yosef was the real driving force between Shas. He was the inspiration behind its leaders and its philosophy.

It sounds to me that he was more the one who provided a halachic reason for Shas policy.
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks

  • Honorable Winged Member
  • Gold Star JTF Member
  • *
  • Posts: 23384
  • Real Kahanist
Re: Rav Ovadia Yosef the spiritual leaders of shas is dead
« Reply #103 on: October 08, 2013, 05:10:53 PM »
It sounds to me that he was more the one who provided a halachic reason for Shas policy.
HaRav Kahane (ztl) should have been the driving engine behind the largest voting bloc of religious Jewish voters and politicians in Israel, not Rabbi Ovadia Yosef.

Offline muman613

  • Platinum JTF Member
  • **********
  • Posts: 29958
  • All souls praise Hashem, Hallelukah!
    • muman613 Torah Wisdom
Re: Rav Ovadia Yosef the spiritual leaders of shas is dead
« Reply #104 on: October 08, 2013, 06:27:56 PM »
Of course I agree. If Rabbi Kahane rose to power as he should have, the Jewish people and the Jewish state would be in a lot better shape today.
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Yerusha

  • Master JTFer
  • ******
  • Posts: 1365
Re: Rav Ovadia Yosef the spiritual leaders of shas is dead
« Reply #105 on: October 08, 2013, 07:07:12 PM »
Chaim has toned down/matured his opinion of R.Ovadiya Yosef since he made this audio clip with plain-talking Englishman Yosef ben Meir z"l in 2002
http://k2s.cc/file/52548f7eb858a/shas.MP3

"There's something that is just so evil, just an example of evil: Shas, that unbelievably evil party in Israel! The head of Shas Ovadiya Yosef, who's real name is Ovadiya Kessef, which means Ovadiya Money, this degenerate who is the spiritual leader of Shas, he speaks 'bububububbububub', you can't even understand a word he says, and I am a fluent Hebrew speaker. He mumbles like a moron and he's completely insane, he's senile, he goes rambling off, and they say oohh the profound words of our leader!" (Chaim ben Pesach, February 2002)


The question is: how should you treat Orthodox Jewish leaders, who know Torah & Halacha better than us, keep all the mitzvos, have thousands of followers, may even be tzaddikim, yet who fatally err on the one point of the Kovod of Eretz Yisrael, on "Land for Peace", and whose support for Oslo cost droves of Jews their lives? eg R.Ovadiya Yosef, R.Eliezer Shach, Belzer Rebbe, R.Israel Lau, Chief Rabbi Jakobovits, R.Norman Lamm etc etc

Should we still treat them with some respect?

Or should we revile them like Korach, the Spies, Shevna Cohen Gadol, Yerovam ben Nevot etc etc, whom although they had good points and may yet be redeemed at the Resurrection, Hashem gave his final stamp as one of opprobrium?
« Last Edit: October 08, 2013, 07:32:52 PM by Yerusha »

Offline Ephraim Ben Noach

  • Silver Star JTF Member
  • ********
  • Posts: 5019
Re: Rav Ovadia Yosef the spiritual leaders of shas is dead
« Reply #106 on: October 08, 2013, 07:34:27 PM »
Chaim has toned down/matured his opinion of R.Ovadiya Yosef since he made this clip with Yosef ben Meir in 2002
http://k2s.cc/file/52548f7eb858a/shas.MP3

"There's something that is just so evil, just an example of evil: Shas, that unbelievably evil party in Israel! The head of Shas Ovadiya Yosef, who's real name is Ovadiya Kessef, which means Ovadiya Money, this degenerate who is the spiritual leader of Shas, he speaks bububububbububub, you can't even understand a word he says, and I am a fluent Hebrew speaker. He mumbles like a moron and he's completely insane, he's senile, he goes rambling off, and they say oohh the profound words of our leader!"
Why would you do that?  You know what kills me... People act like if someone said something, or did something in their past, that is who they are today. People change their opinions, their thoughts, their ways... I use to do a lot of bad things. Does that mean I do them today? No! That's like the lady using the enword 20 years ago, and now gets fired for it.
Ezekiel 33:6 But if the watchman see the sword come, and blow not the horn, and the people be not warned, and the sword do come, and take any person from among them, he is taken away in his iniquity, but his blood will I require at the watchman's hand.

Offline Yerusha

  • Master JTFer
  • ******
  • Posts: 1365
Re: Rav Ovadia Yosef the spiritual leaders of shas is dead
« Reply #107 on: October 08, 2013, 07:45:15 PM »
The fact is that I think Chaim was right all along and has no need to mollify or recant.

In Olam Haba right now 1500 dead Jewish souls are asking Ovadiya Yossef:"Why did you support Oslo?! We would still be alive if not for you!"

And this aside from Hashem being exceedingly angry with Yosef for supporting the ceding of Israel to the Yishmaelites. How angry? Maybe even enough to totally undo 93 years of Torah learning and mitzvos. Maybe even enough to deny him Olam Haba itself!

Even Abraham was punished (Breishit Rabbah 54) for making a treaty with the Avimelech that allowed the Philistines to dwell in peace and sovereignty over a part of Eretz Yisrael. "G-d was furious over this matter" (Rashbam, Breishit 22).

Just imagine how things would be totally different today if Ovadiya Yosef & Shas had actively opposed Oslo!

Offline Tag-MehirTzedek

  • Silver Star JTF Member
  • ********
  • Posts: 5462
Re: Rav Ovadia Yosef the spiritual leaders of shas is dead
« Reply #108 on: October 08, 2013, 08:00:05 PM »
Yerusha- you mentioned Avraham and the wrong Peace treaty he made, will you claim that he lost his Olam Haba for making the peace treaty?
 And if I was you I would be the one terrible concerned about your Olam Haba for purposely trying to stir a Machloket and bringing something that someone else doesn't say any longer (with good reasons).

 And the people who died since Oslo (May their blood be revenged) (not that I support it in ANY way) died because of the direct actions of the Arabs and not because of Jews. Oslo or not the Arabs did and always wanted to murder Jews one way or another, at one time or another. The only solution is to get them out.
  Even big leaders make critical mistakes, you already mentioned Avraham, I can also mention King David where many more died because of some of the actions at that generation will you claim he lost his Olam Haba? And many many other examples with very good leaders as well (like the different Shoftim- Judges of the Torah and Kings as well- such as the best King Hezekia).
.   ד  עֹזְבֵי תוֹרָה, יְהַלְלוּ רָשָׁע;    וְשֹׁמְרֵי תוֹרָה, יִתְגָּרוּ בָם
4 They that forsake the law praise the wicked; but such as keep the law contend with them.

ה  אַנְשֵׁי-רָע, לֹא-יָבִינוּ מִשְׁפָּט;    וּמְבַקְשֵׁי יְהוָה, יָבִינוּ כֹל.   
5 Evil men understand not justice; but they that seek the LORD understand all things.

Offline Tag-MehirTzedek

  • Silver Star JTF Member
  • ********
  • Posts: 5462
Re: Rav Ovadia Yosef the spiritual leaders of shas is dead
« Reply #109 on: October 08, 2013, 08:04:37 PM »
Also it was mentioned about Rav Schach and Rabbi Ovadia supposedly being a puppet of him. 1) that isn't true and 2) Rav Schach from what I know was against Oslo and against joining any government with the left (Rabin and Co.) soo how could one even make such a claim?


(second and third paragraphs down).

http://books.google.com/books?id=T4Y7PT28-w8C&pg=PA109&lpg=PA109&dq=rabbi+schach+and+oslo&source=bl&ots=cah1AwT4aD&sig=NqclpZl3Dmx7mWGtKrUMOZjMcUQ&hl=en&sa=X&ei=9ZxUUtSVBK354APb4IDYAQ&ved=0CEwQ6AEwBA#v=onepage&q=rabbi%20schach%20and%20oslo&f=false
.   ד  עֹזְבֵי תוֹרָה, יְהַלְלוּ רָשָׁע;    וְשֹׁמְרֵי תוֹרָה, יִתְגָּרוּ בָם
4 They that forsake the law praise the wicked; but such as keep the law contend with them.

ה  אַנְשֵׁי-רָע, לֹא-יָבִינוּ מִשְׁפָּט;    וּמְבַקְשֵׁי יְהוָה, יָבִינוּ כֹל.   
5 Evil men understand not justice; but they that seek the LORD understand all things.

Offline Yerusha

  • Master JTFer
  • ******
  • Posts: 1365
Re: Rav Ovadia Yosef the spiritual leaders of shas is dead
« Reply #110 on: October 08, 2013, 08:08:09 PM »
R.Binyamin Kahane used to refer to "the so-called Gedolim of this generation", and wrote an article "Who are the Gedolim?".

At the moment there is a hysteria, most of it hype, about R.Ovadiya Yosef. I believe that history will show that he was in the category of "the so-called Gedolim".

As for Olam Haba, Hashem judges higher men differently eg Chazal say that King Solomon was going to lose his share in the Afterlife just for writing Sefer Koheles, but retained it because he redeemed himself with its very last verse!

Offline Every Jew AK47

  • Master JTFer
  • ******
  • Posts: 1138
  • Am Kahane Chai!
    • Good Music!
Re: Rav Ovadia Yosef the spiritual leaders of shas is dead
« Reply #111 on: October 08, 2013, 08:09:29 PM »
בס''ד

The treachous and corrupt scum of Shas are responsible for the Oslo catastrophe in which huge sections of the most sacred parts of Biblical Israel were handed over to the Muslim Nazi terrorist mass murderers.

Without Shas, the Rabin-Peres regime of treason did not have a Knesset majority. Shas voted against all "no confidence" votes that would have brought the Rabin-Peres regime down. At the time, Shas was rightly condemned by the vast majority of Israeli rabbis, including the son and the grandson of HaRav Ovadia.

The money-grubbing filth in Shas brought this bloody horror on the Jewish people in exchange for massive funding for their institutions.

The same Shas vermin that supported inviting the Arab Hitler Yasser Arafat and 80,000 armed Muslim Nazi terrorists into the land of Israel under the Oslo accords - the same Shas traitors were directly responsible for expelling me from the Jewish homeland. My expulsion order was signed by Shas Interior Minister Eli Suissa yimach shmo vezichro. Suissa, a protégé of Aryeh Deri yimach shmo vezichro, met with the PLO terrorist mass murderers while he was expelling me.

HaRav Ovadia himself was a very learned Torah scholar and we should not curse him out of respect for the Torah. But his rulings on Oslo and many other issues caused terrible harm to the Jewish people and led to the murder of 1800 Jewish men, women and children.

As for HaRav Ovadia's corrupt followers in Shas, they are evil traitors and we are permitted to curse them. May Hashem do to them what they have done to the Jewish people.


I respect what you write here Chaim.. What I don't get, and pardon my ignorance as I am not those most devout and well-learned Jewish person, but why shouldn't a learned and revered Torah scholar be condemn and chastised 7 times over for committing a crime against the Jewish state rather than getting a free meal ticket?  I mean, a person with the knowledge and influence of Rav Ovadia Yosef has the power of life and death in the Jewish community, almost like a king.  What he says could almost be considered as good as Law.  If a man of his greatness makes such a decree against th well-being of the Jewish people, such as giving our land and weaponj to traitors , resulting in the deaths of innocent Jews, shouldn't he face an even greater punishment, since a person with his intellect, knowledge and oversight from Hashem himself should have been an even greater defender of the Jewish race than those who are simply laymen or citizens going on our own intuitions.

I don't know , but Rav Ovadia Yosef and his Shas party has left a bad taste in my mouth.  I pray I can be forgiven if I am a bad Jew, but I cannot even respect the man as a Torah scholar who would bring the death of his Jewish people and nation.  Anybody, who makes war against Israel, whether it be the King of Israel , himself, will sooner or later endure the wrath of Hashem, IMO..  Ariel Sharon could be a fine example of this.. A man who at one time was a proud and vigilant defender of the Jewish people now turned his guns on his own people, forcing them from their homes to empower and give

Why should Rav Ovadia Yosef be given a free pass for his wrongdoings and not even condemned to a greater degree, for being a man so well-learned and using his wisdom and influence to lead the Jewish people on to the path of destruction?

I cannot support any person who supports the arming our enemies, giving away land that doesn't belong to us, but to Hashem himself, as this land is Holy and was sealed in a sacred Covenant.     As much as I respect wise and holy men, I do realize they are human beings and not Hashem, himself.  A king , a high priest, a great scholar a leader, general or anyone with great influence should be held to a high esteem but also, in my opinion, be held to a higher standard, not a lower one.

I apologize for anyone I might offend by writing this and I am willing to make teshuva if I have done wrong in disrespecting a wise scholar.  However, I would like to know why men who are so well-learned do not endure the same wrath (or even greater) than the rest of us humans who bring misery and destruction to the Jewish people and nation?
Please keep the Kahanist movement strong and free of internal strife and drama.

Offline Tag-MehirTzedek

  • Silver Star JTF Member
  • ********
  • Posts: 5462
Re: Rav Ovadia Yosef the spiritual leaders of shas is dead
« Reply #112 on: October 08, 2013, 08:11:14 PM »
yerusha- I read that essay you are twisting it. Read it again and post it, I agree 100% with it and that is why I don't rely on just going with the flow and following someone blindly. That is for sure, but what you are doing is lying and twisting the truth and stirring machloket. Also listen to Rav Kahane himself who always preached (And I saw and this is available on video) to respect others even if we disagree with them and he directly spoke about it when he was asked, he said that if someone even follow the Satmar to respect their opinion and those who follow it let them follow it. Soo give me a break.
.   ד  עֹזְבֵי תוֹרָה, יְהַלְלוּ רָשָׁע;    וְשֹׁמְרֵי תוֹרָה, יִתְגָּרוּ בָם
4 They that forsake the law praise the wicked; but such as keep the law contend with them.

ה  אַנְשֵׁי-רָע, לֹא-יָבִינוּ מִשְׁפָּט;    וּמְבַקְשֵׁי יְהוָה, יָבִינוּ כֹל.   
5 Evil men understand not justice; but they that seek the LORD understand all things.

Offline muman613

  • Platinum JTF Member
  • **********
  • Posts: 29958
  • All souls praise Hashem, Hallelukah!
    • muman613 Torah Wisdom
Re: Rav Ovadia Yosef the spiritual leaders of shas is dead
« Reply #113 on: October 08, 2013, 08:12:44 PM »
I cannot believe the level of disrespect of Torah scholars which takes place on this forum.

Sometimes I wonder whether it is possible for us to succeed with such disrespect.
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Every Jew AK47

  • Master JTFer
  • ******
  • Posts: 1138
  • Am Kahane Chai!
    • Good Music!
Re: Rav Ovadia Yosef the spiritual leaders of shas is dead
« Reply #114 on: October 08, 2013, 08:12:58 PM »
The fact is that I think Chaim was right all along and has no need to mollify or recant.

In Olam Haba right now 1500 dead Jewish souls are asking Ovadiya Yossef:"Why did you support Oslo?! We would still be alive if not for you!"

And this aside from Hashem being exceedingly angry with Yosef for supporting the ceding of Israel to the Yishmaelites. How angry? Maybe even enough to totally undo 93 years of Torah learning and mitzvos. Maybe even enough to deny him Olam Haba itself!

Even Abraham was punished (Breishit Rabbah 54) for making a treaty with the Avimelech that allowed the Philistines to dwell in peace and sovereignty over a part of Eretz Yisrael. "G-d was furious over this matter" (Rashbam, Breishit 22).

Just imagine how things would be totally different today if Ovadiya Yosef & Shas had actively opposed Oslo!

I am in full agreement with you, Yerusha.. Once again, I believe Rav Ovadiya Yosef is a man who should be held to a higher standard, not a lower one. . Obviously,  Yitzhak Rabin, Shimon Peres, Ehud Olmert all support the exact same legislation as Shas and Rav Ovaidya Yosef, yet I doubt anyone would think twice of condemning these politicians for doing this action.  Yet, a man who is supposedly a tzedik and well-learned does the same thing??  Unlike politicians who are selfish, greedy and corrupt by nature, this man should have known better and he influenced many more people who otherwise would have not accept such a decree.   Contrary to disobeying a politician, people felt by disobeying him, they were disobeying G-d, himself, since he was a revered Torah scholar.  To me this is a much greater evil.
Please keep the Kahanist movement strong and free of internal strife and drama.

Offline Every Jew AK47

  • Master JTFer
  • ******
  • Posts: 1138
  • Am Kahane Chai!
    • Good Music!
Re: Rav Ovadia Yosef the spiritual leaders of shas is dead
« Reply #115 on: October 08, 2013, 08:14:36 PM »
I cannot believe the level of disrespect of Torah scholars which takes place on this forum.

Sometimes I wonder whether it is possible for us to succeed with such disrespect.

But about the people the Jewish souls that died as a result of this Torah scholar's decrees of giving away Jewish land and arming and aiding our enemies?  The enemies of Hashem, himself??

Remember, Muman, you lost a brother, what about the people who lost their brothers as a result of the decrees of Shas, which was supported by Rav Ovadia Yosef, himself?


I also don't think Torah scholars deserve deity like status.. THey are human beings.. They error, they are not infallible.  They are to be respected, but with respect also comes greater judgment , IMO..  A man who holds the keys to the vault that contains the wealth of the community will be the one to bear the blame if the vault is broken into and the money stolen.
Please keep the Kahanist movement strong and free of internal strife and drama.

Offline Tag-MehirTzedek

  • Silver Star JTF Member
  • ********
  • Posts: 5462
Re: Rav Ovadia Yosef the spiritual leaders of shas is dead
« Reply #116 on: October 08, 2013, 08:18:41 PM »
   Again I think ppl missed his psak din (and I dont agree with it). His whole premise was to save Jewish lives. You are calling him evil for that? Others would then call him evil and would say- just for land you are willing to kill many Jewish lives.
   You are twisting and thinking that the whole intent was to harm Jewish lives?  :o



 And yes even great people can and did make mistakes. Perhaps someone who is too involved in learning can and does miss certain truths about the world and the way the world works. And their is wisdom "on the street" if you will that sometimes great scholars can and do miss.
.   ד  עֹזְבֵי תוֹרָה, יְהַלְלוּ רָשָׁע;    וְשֹׁמְרֵי תוֹרָה, יִתְגָּרוּ בָם
4 They that forsake the law praise the wicked; but such as keep the law contend with them.

ה  אַנְשֵׁי-רָע, לֹא-יָבִינוּ מִשְׁפָּט;    וּמְבַקְשֵׁי יְהוָה, יָבִינוּ כֹל.   
5 Evil men understand not justice; but they that seek the LORD understand all things.

Offline Tag-MehirTzedek

  • Silver Star JTF Member
  • ********
  • Posts: 5462
Re: Rav Ovadia Yosef the spiritual leaders of shas is dead
« Reply #117 on: October 08, 2013, 08:22:25 PM »
Yerusha here I did the work for you (well its against you).

http://kahane.blogspot.com/2007/06/who-is-gadol-and-how-to-choose-rabbi.html
.   ד  עֹזְבֵי תוֹרָה, יְהַלְלוּ רָשָׁע;    וְשֹׁמְרֵי תוֹרָה, יִתְגָּרוּ בָם
4 They that forsake the law praise the wicked; but such as keep the law contend with them.

ה  אַנְשֵׁי-רָע, לֹא-יָבִינוּ מִשְׁפָּט;    וּמְבַקְשֵׁי יְהוָה, יָבִינוּ כֹל.   
5 Evil men understand not justice; but they that seek the LORD understand all things.

Offline Yerusha

  • Master JTFer
  • ******
  • Posts: 1365
Re: Rav Ovadia Yosef the spiritual leaders of shas is dead
« Reply #118 on: October 08, 2013, 08:38:12 PM »
Rav Schach from what I know was against Oslo and against joining any government with the left (Rabin and Co.) soo how could one even make such a claim?

R.Shach and his Degel HaTorah supported Oslo (as did most Haredi leaders at the time), mainly out of pique just because Chabad opposed it as the Lubavitcher Rebbe was strongly against "Land for Peace"! Shas of course did it for the large amounts of money thrown at them to support it!
http://articles.sun-sentinel.com/1990-03-20/news/9001300444_1_rabbi-ovadia-yosef-shas-party-yitzhak-shamir

If the Lubavitcher Rebbe had not been silenced by a stroke in 1992, Oslo in 1993 would never have seen the light of day, such was his worldwide influence even on Haredim who weren't Lubavitchers!
« Last Edit: October 08, 2013, 08:48:52 PM by Yerusha »

Offline Lisa

  • Forum Administrator
  • Silver Star JTF Member
  • *
  • Posts: 9373
    • The Urban Grind
Re: Rav Ovadia Yosef the spiritual leaders of shas is dead
« Reply #119 on: October 08, 2013, 08:50:31 PM »
As a woman of Iranian Jewish ancestry, let me just say that there are some Persian customs I hate, and there are some I like. 

Obviously, I like the emphasis on family, on manners, and being a good host, to name a few.  There are other customs I also dislike. 

But I have to say, I have never seen among the Iranian Jews the near worship of rabbis that I see here, and other places.  And I'm probably going to get flamed, but I respect them for that. 

In fact, there was a time when one of our Synagogues in Great Neck didn't even have a rabbi.  I don't know how long that was for.   But there were men educated enough to still conduct the services.  Now we do have them though. 

There's also one man in our community who has the rabbinical smicha (ordination) who is not the official rabbi of the Synagogues.  But he always gives the eulogies at funeral services.  He's a very bright, educated man. 


Offline Every Jew AK47

  • Master JTFer
  • ******
  • Posts: 1138
  • Am Kahane Chai!
    • Good Music!
Re: Rav Ovadia Yosef the spiritual leaders of shas is dead
« Reply #120 on: October 08, 2013, 09:01:12 PM »
   Again I think ppl missed his psak din (and I dont agree with it). His whole premise was to save Jewish lives. You are calling him evil for that? Others would then call him evil and would say- just for land you are willing to kill many Jewish lives.
   You are twisting and thinking that the whole intent was to harm Jewish lives?  :o



 And yes even great people can and did make mistakes. Perhaps someone who is too involved in learning can and does miss certain truths about the world and the way the world works. And their is wisdom "on the street" if you will that sometimes great scholars can and do miss.

Well, not to twist the discussion, but didn't Yitzhak Rabin and other politicians, as well as liberal Jewish groups think they are saving Jewish lives by giving away our land and arming our enemies in the name of "World Peace".  I mean, who are we to condemn Shalom Akshav, Rabin, Olmert and the other lefties for doing what they thought was in best interests of the Jewish people anymore than Rav Ovadiya Yosef for doing what he thought was best.  Whether he uses Torah or not as the means for helping the Jewish people , I cannot say his intentions were much different than the others who believe in giving away land and arming our enemies will make them more peaceful.  The only difference , IMO, between Rav Ovadiya's intentions and that other other leftists is that he believed giving away our land and arming our enemies came from the Torah and was the Will of Hashem, himself, whereas people like Rabin, Shalom Akshav and the other leftists are secular, naive atheists who do what they do out of emotions and fear.  Not to say, I don't think Ovadiya was acting rationally.. What person could ever rationally think giving away land and arming the enemies of Hashem is truly ever in the best interest of the Jewish people?   

Didn't we learn anything back in Europe when it turned out that those box trains were not bringing us to work labor camps where we thought  we would be treated well, fed and given good paying jobs to help the Chancellor and save the German economy.  Many Rabbis also calculated it was in our best interest to go to those camps.
Please keep the Kahanist movement strong and free of internal strife and drama.

Offline muman613

  • Platinum JTF Member
  • **********
  • Posts: 29958
  • All souls praise Hashem, Hallelukah!
    • muman613 Torah Wisdom
Re: Rav Ovadia Yosef the spiritual leaders of shas is dead
« Reply #121 on: October 08, 2013, 09:05:39 PM »
But about the people the Jewish souls that died as a result of this Torah scholar's decrees of giving away Jewish land and arming and aiding our enemies?  The enemies of Hashem, himself??

Remember, Muman, you lost a brother, what about the people who lost their brothers as a result of the decrees of Shas, which was supported by Rav Ovadia Yosef, himself?


I also don't think Torah scholars deserve deity like status.. THey are human beings.. They error, they are not infallible.  They are to be respected, but with respect also comes greater judgment , IMO..  A man who holds the keys to the vault that contains the wealth of the community will be the one to bear the blame if the vault is broken into and the money stolen.

I do not believe Ovadia Yosef was responsible for Oslo. I have not seen any evidence of this. The issue which he decided was whether there is a leniency concerning giving land in return for peace from enemies. His belief was that it is permitted to do so, based on the idea of Pikuach Nefesh.

I have said this enough times and dont want to keep repeating it, but Pikuach Nefesh is a real principle and may have had application to this issue. If there was a possibility of a lasting peace maybe it could be possible to give land. I am not a sage of the calibre of Rabbi Yosef was, so I have to read his opinion and compare it to what other sages have said on the issue.

I think it is wrong for Rabbis to become involved with politics. Politics has a way of corrupting those involved with it.

I will not curse this Rabbi, and I feel sorry for those who cherished his teaching.

You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Tag-MehirTzedek

  • Silver Star JTF Member
  • ********
  • Posts: 5462
Re: Rav Ovadia Yosef the spiritual leaders of shas is dead
« Reply #122 on: October 08, 2013, 09:15:17 PM »
Lisa  -"the near worship of rabbis that I see here, and other places. "

 
  How do you even go from what I or Muman or others said that the intent was not evil to the general respect one needs to have to the Torah and Hachamim to the "near worship of Rabbis" ? Where is the connection? I don't even follow the Rav, but how does someone compare him or others of that caliber to some dummy on the street? I really dont understand the connection?

.   ד  עֹזְבֵי תוֹרָה, יְהַלְלוּ רָשָׁע;    וְשֹׁמְרֵי תוֹרָה, יִתְגָּרוּ בָם
4 They that forsake the law praise the wicked; but such as keep the law contend with them.

ה  אַנְשֵׁי-רָע, לֹא-יָבִינוּ מִשְׁפָּט;    וּמְבַקְשֵׁי יְהוָה, יָבִינוּ כֹל.   
5 Evil men understand not justice; but they that seek the LORD understand all things.

Offline Tag-MehirTzedek

  • Silver Star JTF Member
  • ********
  • Posts: 5462
Re: Rav Ovadia Yosef the spiritual leaders of shas is dead
« Reply #123 on: October 08, 2013, 09:18:23 PM »

As for Olam Haba, Hashem judges higher men differently eg Chazal say that King Solomon was going to lose his share in the Afterlife just for writing Sefer Koheles, but retained it because he redeemed himself with its very last verse!

 Actually correction- Chazal said that they wouldn't include the Sefer (as part of Tannach) if not for the last line.
.   ד  עֹזְבֵי תוֹרָה, יְהַלְלוּ רָשָׁע;    וְשֹׁמְרֵי תוֹרָה, יִתְגָּרוּ בָם
4 They that forsake the law praise the wicked; but such as keep the law contend with them.

ה  אַנְשֵׁי-רָע, לֹא-יָבִינוּ מִשְׁפָּט;    וּמְבַקְשֵׁי יְהוָה, יָבִינוּ כֹל.   
5 Evil men understand not justice; but they that seek the LORD understand all things.

Offline muman613

  • Platinum JTF Member
  • **********
  • Posts: 29958
  • All souls praise Hashem, Hallelukah!
    • muman613 Torah Wisdom
Re: Rav Ovadia Yosef the spiritual leaders of shas is dead
« Reply #124 on: October 08, 2013, 09:20:26 PM »
I don't think anyone on the forum worships or even follows the Rabbi closely...

I am operating on the principles of respecting a Talmid Chocham as brought down by Rambam...

You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14