Rav Ovadia Yosef the spiritual leaders of shas is dead

[Chaim Ben Pesach]

 No, actually I think he meant something else, as one can correct sins of karet. By the way as long as one is alive they can correct anything even if a heavenly voice says that one cannot do Teshuva (like for Acher) we dont listen to it and one can still make Teshuva.

בס''ד

Not true that you can correct anything no matter how bad.

You mean after murdering over 6 million Jews, Hitler could have corrected his past by doing tshuva? The claim is simply absurd. Certain actions are unforgivable.

I know you heard this from rabbis who preach this message nowadays but it is a complete distortion of Torah. Even if a murderer does tshuva, they cannot do kapara for their crime because they cannot bring back the person they murdered.

Or if someone encourages another person to sin, how can they do tshuva for the sin which another person does? So if you have leaders or actors or singers or clergy or journalists who cause millions to sin, how can the person responsible for this mass sinning do tshuva for all of the evil that they have caused?

In other words, tshuva (return) is not the same as kapara (atonement). Kapara is eliminating the negative consequences of sinful behavior in this world. There are many sins for which kapara is possible. But there are also grave sins for which it is impossible - in these severe cases like murder, even if the murderer does tshuva, he cannot do kapara by merely repenting. His soul will be held accountable in the next world.

[Ephraim Ben Noach]

בס''ד

Not true that you can correct anything no matter how bad.

You mean after murdering over 6 million Jews, Hitler could have corrected his past by doing tshuva? The claim is simply absurd. Certain actions are unforgivable.

I know you heard this from rabbis who preach this message nowadays but it is a complete distortion of Torah. Even if a murderer does tshuva, they cannot do kapara for their crime because they cannot bring back the person they murdered.

Or if someone encourages another person to sin, how can they do tshuva for the sin which another person does? So if you have leaders or actors or singers or clergy or journalists who cause millions to sin, how can the person responsible for this mass sinning do tshuva for all of the evil that they have caused?

In other words, tshuva (return) is not the same as kapara (atonement). Kapara is eliminating the negative consequences of sinful behavior in this world. There are many sins for which kapara is possible. But there are also grave sins for which it is impossible - in these severe cases like murder, even if the murderer does tshuva, he cannot do kapara by merely repenting. His soul will be held accountable in the next world.

What if the murder is out of self defense, or revenge for the murder of innocent people?

[muman613]

בס''ד

Not true that you can correct anything no matter how bad.

You mean after murdering over 6 million Jews, Hitler could have corrected his past by doing tshuva? The claim is simply absurd. Certain actions are unforgivable.

I know you heard this from rabbis who preach this message nowadays but it is a complete distortion of Torah. Even if a murderer does tshuva, they cannot do kapara for their crime because they cannot bring back the person they murdered.

Or if someone encourages another person to sin, how can they do tshuva for the sin which another person does? So if you have leaders or actors or singers or clergy or journalists who cause millions to sin, how can the person responsible for this mass sinning do tshuva for all of the evil that they have caused?

In other words, tshuva (return) is not the same as kapara (atonement). Kapara is eliminating the negative consequences of sinful behavior in this world. There are many sins for which kapara is possible. But there are also grave sins for which it is impossible - in these severe cases like murder, even if the murderer does tshuva, he cannot do kapara by merely repenting. His soul will be held accountable in the next world.

Can you explain the meaning of the story of Acher from the Talmud. This is what Tag is referring to, and according to this story Acher was a very bad sinner. He was a Rabbi who was admitted to Gan Eden, but after he returned he 'went off the derek' so bad he publicly violated Shabbat, even engaging in murder.... He told his Rabbi that he heard a Bat Kol (Heavenly voice) saying that his Teshuva would not be accepted.

In the end he was able to do teshuva... Acher did receive gehinnom but he eventually was rewarded with the World to Come...

See Gemara Chagiga 15a @ http://halakhah.com/rst/moed/23%20-%20Chagigah%20-%202a-27a.pdf

[muman613]

A short summary of the story of Acher....

http://www.torah.org/learning/olas-shabbos/5760/bo.html

The Gemara (Chagiga 15a) tells the tragic story of Elisha ben Avuya - also known as "Acher" - who after many years as a renowned Torah scholar, lost his faith, and began to sin. One of Acher's greatest disciples had been the great Talmudic sage Rabbi Meir. The Talmud relates that even after his rebbe, Acher, had abandoned his Judaism, Rabbi Meir continued to visit him, partly in order to try to bring him back.

Once, Rabbi Meir said to his rebbe: "What is the meaning of that which is written (Iyov/Job 28:17), 'Gold and crystal cannot equal it, nor can it be exchanged with golden vessels?'"

"This refers," said Acher, "to the words of Torah, which are as difficult to acquire as gold, and as easy to lose as crystal is to break!"

"No!" said Rabbi Meir, "your rebbe, Rabbi Akiva, did not explain it like that. Rather, he said, 'Just like vessels of gold and crystal, even if they broke, can always be fixed (even crystal can be reheated and re-formed) - so too, even the greatest Torah scholar, if he has done wrong, can still repent!' Rebbe," pleaded Rabbi Meir, "relent from your ways!"

"Impossible!" said Acher, "I can not return. For from behind the [heavenly] partition I have heard [the voice of G-d] proclaiming (Yirmiyahu/Jeremiah 3:14), 'Return, O wayward sons - except for Acher!' [Evidently, I am beyond repentance.]"

Even so, the Gemara relates, Rabbi Meir continued [unsuccessfully] to hound his rebbe, pleading with him to repent. Did Rabbi Meir not believe in Acher's heavenly voice? Can one indeed sin to the point where he is "beyond teshuva?"

The short answer is: Yes, one can pervert his life so badly that the Gates of Teshuva are closed in his face. One can, so to speak, sin to the point of "no return." Indeed, this is precisely what occurred with Acher. The heavenly voice was proof that his teshuva was no longer acceptable.

Yet, asks Agra de-Pirka, what would have been if, after the initial shock of hearing the heavenly proclamation "Return, O wayward sons - except for Acher," Elisha would have said to himself: "So what! Perhaps they can prevent me from entering the Garden of Eden, but they can't stop me from trying to salvage my wretched life! I will do my best to repent. If my teshuva will not be accepted - so be it. At least I will know that I have not lived out my last days wallowing in the disgust of my own sin!" Would his teshuva indeed have been thrown in his face?

A rebbe has a very difficult student. Continued threats seem to be falling on deaf ears. He has already been suspended for a period, for a day, and for a week. Finally, in desperation, the rebbe gives him an ultimatum: "That's it," he says earnestly, "no more chances! Mark my words: The next time will be your last! If you misbehave one more time, we're through. I will never again let you back into my class." Soon afterward, the student pulls a prank. "Out!" hollers the rebbe, "and never come back again!"

What, I once asked my students, should the "wayward student" do? Should he 1) Plead with his rebbe for "one more chance"? 2) Leave the class and - obeying his rebbe's words - never come back. 3) Come back tomorrow (or next week) and plead for his rebbe's forgiveness?

It's hard to know for sure, but my students felt that to some extent the rebbe was really testing his student. Did he really care about remaining in yeshiva? Would he come back, or would he use his rebbe's harsh punishment as an excuse to leave the yeshiva forever - "After all, my rebbe told me never to come back!" At any rate, they decided, to make no attempt to placate his rebbe would be a major mistake.

This, explain sefarim, was Hashem's test of Acher. The voice he heard was very real. Indeed, having heard that fatal voice itself made repentance almost impossible. Yet the potential was still there. Elisha could have ignored the voice, and done what's right.

[muman613]

I also don't think Tag was trying to say that punishment was not going to be dealt to the sinner. I know he has said that everything, good and evil, is met with reward and punishment. Even the most righteous person will have to do some suffering (in this world) for the sins he has done. The most wicked person will be rewarded for the good he has done (in this world, most probably).

This is not what 'progressive' or 'reform' Rabbis say. This is what the Talmud and the Orthodox Rabbis say...

[Chaim Ben Pesach]

What if the murder is out of self defense, or revenge for the murder of innocent people?

בס''ד

Self-defense or justifiable revenge are not sins. If there is no sin, there is no punishment.

When we speak of heavenly punishment, we are referring to the unjustified murder of an innocent person.

[Chaim Ben Pesach]

Can you explain the meaning of the story of Acher from the Talmud. This is what Tag is referring to, and according to this story Acher was a very bad sinner. He was a Rabbi who was admitted to Gan Eden, but after he returned he 'went off the derek' so bad he publicly violated Shabbat, even engaging in murder.... He told his Rabbi that he heard a Bat Kol (Heavenly voice) saying that his Teshuva would not be accepted.

In the end he was able to do teshuva... Acher did receive gehinnom but he eventually was rewarded with the World to Come...

See Gemara Chagiga 15a @ http://halakhah.com/rst/moed/23%20-%20Chagigah%20-%202a-27a.pdf

בס''ד

Like many stories in the Gemara, this story is filled with symbolism. We do not know the exact nature of the sins involved.

However, it is halacha that you cannot be forgiven by simply repenting before G-d even on Yom Kippur if you have done something wrong to another person unless you get that person's forgiveness, and if necessary, by compensating that person for the wrong that you have done.

If your sin is against G-d, you can be forgiven by doing three things on Yom Kippur: admitting your sin, expressing sincere regret and promising not to repeat that sin in the future. But if your sin is against another person, then this three step process is not enough. You must ask the person you have wronged for forgiveness and the person must agree to forgive you.

If this is true when you commit sins like gossiping about someone else or hurting someone else's feelings, then how much more so is it true if you murder an innocent person, G-d forbid. Yom Kippur cannot atone for such a crime. There is no atonement in this world because you cannot bring that person back to life.

Also in cases of great evil, Hashem sometimes takes free will away as part of the punishment. Hashem hardened Pharoah's heart - He took Pharoah's free will away because He wanted to give Egypt the full punishment of all ten plagues after the Egyptians murdered the Hebrew first born baby boys. HaRambam teaches us that this can be part of the punishment - the wicked are unable to repent because G-d wants to give them the maximum punishment.

[muman613]

Shalom Chaim,

Thank you for your response. I fully agree with you concerning the topic of whether some sins are forgivable. Obviously sins between man and his fellow are not forgivable except between men. Yom Kippur atones for sins between man and his maker. Sin like Lashon Hara and murder cannot be undone, and thus there will be punishment to pay.

I have read through the story of Acher again tonight and what I believe it says is that it is in the power of anyone to repent and to cease their wrong-doing. This story appears in both the Babylonian and Jerusalem Talmuds and with slightly different discussions. This Acher fellow was a Gadol, taught by Rabbi Akiva himself and the teacher of Torah sages. He fell to the lowest lows in desecrating Shabbat, being an informant for the Romans, even going to the extent of possibly murdering a child. And a heavenly voice came from the ruins of the Holy Temple saying that everyone but Acher could do Teshuva (repent).

Obviously Acher's soul was punished for the wrongdoing that it did. But in the end it comes out that his Teshuva was accepted.

I believe it is taught that our sins will be cleansed through the process of Gehinnom (setting aside the calculation of Gilgulim)... It is my belief that Acher did his punishment in Gehinnom, and in the end was granted his Olam Haba.

Once again I appreciate your answers to these questions. And I do not argue with what you wrote in your reply as it is the truth.

Thank you,

[muman613]

Also in cases of great evil, Hashem sometimes takes free will away as part of the punishment. Hashem hardened Pharoah's heart - He took Pharoah's free will away because He wanted to give Egypt the full punishment of all ten plagues after the Egyptians murdered the Hebrew first born baby boys. HaRambam teaches us that this can be part of the punishment - the wicked are unable to repent because G-d wants to give them the maximum punishment.

Let me reveal that I understand two teachings concerning what you mention here...

Indeed Rambam and others believe that Hashem will harden the heart of the wicked and provide all the reward for any good deeds in this world, so that they will have no reward in the next world... This is basic understanding...

But there is also a teaching which I sought an answer from my Rabbi about after Yom Kippur concerning the story of Yonah. I have seen it written that Pharoah was indeed able to do Teshuva. He was not destroyed in the Yam Suf as some sages suggest. Based on the way the pasuk which describes the destruction of the Egyptians when Hashem turned back the sea on them, some believe that Pharoah actually survived.

According to this midrash, Pharoah eventually became the King of Ninevah, the city to which Hashem sent Yonah to bring them to repentance... In this story the King of Ninevah does heed Yonahs warning, donning sackcloth and ashes and establishing a fast.

My Rabbi did not provide me with a very good answer. I have people who I will never forgive, especially those who are involved with the death of my brother. Sometimes when I hear Teshuva shuirs it bothers me because I do not believe that those wicked people involved in 9/11 can ever be forgiven, even by Hashem. But this midrash is truth, the question is how to understand it.

[muman613]

Here is the concept which I brought in the post above, concerning reward...


http://ohr.edu/5522

Dear Mordechai,

This is a very good question, and one which the Torah commentators raise in several places.

It is true that regarding observing the Torah in general, and throughout this period of judgment of the High Holidays in particular, we are promised that the righteous will be rewarded. And as you point out, this reward is described in this-worldly terms.

Yet, we are taught by the Sages that "the reward for mitzvot is not in this world". Rather, it will be in the World-to-Come. This is one of the reasons behind the idea you mention that the righteous will be rewarded for their good deeds in the World-to-Come, whereas their few misdeeds will be "rewarded" in this world in the form of suffering, in order that they reap the full benefit of their righteousness in the next world.

However, if this is true, although we can understand why the wicked will be punished in the next world for their misdeeds, why are they rewarded for their few good deeds in this world? According to the teaching of the Sages quoted above, there's no reward for mitzvot in this world!

The answer to this question also answers yours.

In addition to teaching us that the reward for mitzvot is not in this world, the Sages also teach us that while the "principal" accrued by the mitzvot is rewarded in the next world, the "interest" on that principal is paid out in this world.

Therefore, the fact that the principal will be retained for the righteous in the next world doesn't mean they'll necessarily suffer in this world. It’s the "interest" on their investment that the Torah promises as blessing for doing G-d's Will, or as life and its bounties conferred upon the righteous during the period of judgment of the High Holidays.

On the other hand, the reward given to the wicked in this world for their few good deeds is actually the principal itself. Even though the reward for mitzvot is not in this world, that's specifically in the normal state of affairs. However, the wicked, by investing their efforts in the physical world, make it the place where their principal is paid. This results in their reaping the full "reward" for their misdeeds in the World-to-Come.

So to summarize, the "this-worldy" blessing promised to the righteous is paid from the interest on their holdings in the World-to-Come. And even though their few misdeeds are simultaneously reckoned here as suffering, that's only to preserve the integrity of their investments there. Whereas the wicked receive the full reward for their good deeds here, and suffer the full repercussions of their wickedness in the World-to-Come.

In what way, then, is the Torah's "this-worldly curse" against wicked realized?

For one, even though they may have bounty, they don't have blessing in that bounty. They are never satisfied with what they have, they're constantly driven by jealousy and competition to have more, and therefore don't really enjoy what they have. The righteous, however, in spirit with the teaching of our Sages, "Who is wealthy? He who is content with his portion", are grateful for and happy with G-d's gift - which is blessing. And this is a further curse for the wicked, who — seeing the righteous content with less — seethe with dissatisfaction and dismay.

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

What about the non-Jew who even killed many many people during the first destruction of the first Temple , but then converted and became a full Jew and was forgiven. (The name slipped me).

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

It is my belief that Acher did his punishment in Gehinnom, and in the end was granted his Olam Haba.

 Even though I skimmed everything and didn't see all the responses here today, about this- I w as under the impression that he didn't go to Gehinnom because it wouldn't affect him. He was in some sort of neither here nor their place because someone who has a lot of Torah (since Torah is like fire) isn't affected by Gehinnom, but he wasn't sent to Olam Haba as well, soo he was stuck in between until some years later.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

We will have to agree to disagree on this one.
How dare he say the terrible vile things he said about The Lubavitcher Rebbe,ZT"L,Rav Soloveitchik ZT"L& Rav Steinsaltz?
It was clearly hateful & jealousy on his part.
Nothing I said wasn't true.
I would never talk bad on a true gadol,but he was no gadol in my eyes & in the eyes of many chasidim (not only Chabad but other chasidim as well) & as well as many talmidim of Rav Soloveitchik.
Surely he was not on the magnitude of the Rebbe or Rav Soloveitchik.
The man was pure evil & because of him many Jews were turned off to Judaism & Jews were killed because of his support of sacrificing land.
At least Rav Ovadia,ZTL wsa mensch enough to admit when he was wrong & reached out to other Jews & brought many Jews back to the derech unlike that other person.

You are talking nonsense.

A man is "pure evil" because he said something negative about your rebbe?   Wow bro, lay off the personality cult kool aid.
   
I agree with your sentiment "how dare he say those things" because I do feel he said some ridiculous and terrible things about good Jews.   On the other hand, so what?    Go to YU and you will not find one rav there or actual talmid of Rabbi JB Soloveitchik who will call Rav Shach "evil" as you do.   None of them will agree with you despite the fact that they don't accept what he said about them or YU.     Rav Shach's outlandish comments were only part and parcel of the haredi political approach in modern times.   The agudists do the same exact thing to this day.    And news for you is that almost the entire "yeshivish" world have disdain for YU and for Rav Soloveitchik unfortunately.   That does not make them evil even if I think they are really misguided .  Do you consider hundreds of thousands of frum Jews to be "pure evil" because they do not accept anything from Steinsaltz and they look down on Rav S and YU?

Lastly, from what I understand, Rav Shach fought against Chabad because of the messichistim and just as you called them loonie tunes and I agree with you, that's exactly what he was fighting against, the loony tunes.     But you also need to accept the fact that when his chassidim publicly declared him moshiach at farbrengens, the rebbe said nothing.   He did nothing to stop them or contradict them.    So it is understandable why some people would have had sharp criticisms for the Rebbe at that time.

[ChabadKahanist]

You are talking nonsense.

A man is "pure evil" because he said something negative about your rebbe?   Wow bro, lay off the personality cult kool aid.
   
I agree with your sentiment "how dare he say those things" because I do feel he said some ridiculous and terrible things about good Jews.   On the other hand, so what?    Go to YU and you will not find one rav there or actual talmid of Rabbi JB Soloveitchik who will call Rav Shach "evil" as you do.   None of them will agree with you despite the fact that they don't accept what he said about them or YU.     Rav Shach's outlandish comments were only part and parcel of the haredi political approach in modern times.   The agudists do the same exact thing to this day.    And news for you is that almost the entire "yeshivish" world have disdain for YU and for Rav Soloveitchik unfortunately.   That does not make them evil even if I think they are really misguided .  Do you consider hundreds of thousands of frum Jews to be "pure evil" because they do not accept anything from Steinsaltz and they look down on Rav S and YU?

Lastly, from what I understand, Rav Shach fought against Chabad because of the messichistim and just as you called them loonie tunes and I agree with you, that's exactly what he was fighting against, the loony tunes.     But you also need to accept the fact that when his chassidim publicly declared him moshiach at farbrengens, the rebbe said nothing.   He did nothing to stop them or contradict them.    So it is understandable why some people would have had sharp criticisms for the Rebbe at that time.

Actually before he had the stroke he vehently objected to be called Moshiach I heard it myself,so Shach's insults were unwarranted.
Also Shach insulted the Gerrer Rebbe as well is that a gadol I don't think so but an egomaniac who has no respect for others more successful than him.
The man was pure evil & I believe that fully.
What did he contribute to Klal Yisroel?
Nothing other than putting down other Jews & turning off thousands.
A true gadol does not spew forth the verbal diarreha that Shach spouted but has Ahavas Yisroel. for all Jews.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Actually before he had the stroke he vehently objected to be called Moshiach I heard it myself,so Shach's insults were unwarranted.
Also Shach insulted the Gerrer Rebbe as well is that a gadol I don't think so but an egomaniac who has no respect for others more successful than him.
The man was pure evil & I believe that fully.
What did he contribute to Klal Yisroel?
Nothing other than putting down other Jews & turning off thousands.
A true gadol does not spew forth the verbal diarreha that Shach spouted but has Ahavas Yisroel. for all Jews.

YU Talmidim don't call him evil, gerer chassidim don't call him evil,only you do.
You ask what he accomplished, I honestly don't know much about him but I know tons of Jews consider him a great scholar , including Rav Yakov Weinberg zt"l of ner yisrael, whose talmidim say he considered rav shach the leading halachic authority of eretz yisrael.  Anyway why don't you learn about what he accomplished instead of judging based on some meaningless bombastic comments he made.

Did the L Rebbe give farbrengen after the stroke?  I know an elderly Jew personally who used to go to the farbrengens of the rebbe and when at one of them they declared him moshiach and he said nothing, this Jew stopped going to any farbrengens and disconnected from chabad entirely.

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

At least Rav Ovadia,ZTL wsa mensch enough to admit when he was wrong & reached out to other Jews & brought many Jews back to the derech unlike that other person.

Excuse me? I understand that he was a wise sage, but worthy of the highest honor in Judaism after his death? ROY supported every single suicide initiative and surrender to the Arabs/international Nazis, in exchange for government funding of his institutions and welfare for his followers. That is not righteous and like Chaim said, some sins are not forgivable or overlookable.

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

Excuse me? I understand that he was a wise sage, but worthy of the highest honor in Judaism after his death? ROY supported every single suicide initiative and surrender to the Arabs/international Nazis, in exchange for government funding of his institutions and welfare for his followers. That is not righteous and like Chaim said, some sins are not forgivable or overlookable.

 Not true, just forget about it.

 And perhaps leftists will try to claim as such (within and without the party), but the record shows differently.

 Also before people continue using the "evil" card on others, remember that Rav Kahane ZTL HYD said that because of the galut even great Scholars of today have imbued into them the culture of the galut and the FEAR of the goyim. That is what is causing a lot of the problems of today. Irrational fear of" what will they say" or what if America cuts off the aid and other such things.

[Rubystars]

I think he will have to answer to God for why he wanted to consider most of humanity as slaves. On top of that he betrayed his own people by supporting concessions to the Fakestinians. I just don't understand why anybody would mourn this guy. He seemed to hate humanity in general.

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

I think he will have to answer to God for why he wanted to consider most of humanity as slaves. On top of that he betrayed his own people by supporting concessions to the Fakestinians. I just don't understand why anybody would mourn this guy. He seemed to hate humanity in general.

 Naa, I read recently by the Rambam as well saying similar thing although he doesn't say "goyim" he says that the unlearned are here to serve the perfect man. These people could be few in a generation or could be sometimes 1ce in a couple of generations (looong explanation) but this idea isn't new and misunderstanding of what "serve" means. At least by the Rambam he says the purpose of a human being is to Know G-D as much as possible, anyone (Jew or non-Jew) not reaching that level isn't a complete human being. Then explains how and why G-D made the unlearned and that their purpose is to serve the Perfect human being (and explains how he serves hi, not by what you think of being his slave and such but by doing and running after his own thing like building palaces and trying to make $ for himself and then indirectly benefiting the perfect man who lives up to his potential by for example having that castle in the desert which the learned man finds shade in and other such examples.

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

I think he will have to answer to God for why he wanted to consider most of humanity as slaves. On top of that he betrayed his own people by supporting concessions to the Fakestinians. I just don't understand why anybody would mourn this guy. He seemed to hate humanity in general.

I agree. Chaim is correct about Rabbi Ovadia Yosef, Aryeh Deri, and the rest of Shas (or as I call it, ShaSS).

[Rubystars]

Naa, I read recently by the Rambam as well saying similar thing although he doesn't say "goyim" he says that the unlearned are here to serve the perfect man.

That person's been dead a whole lot longer so that seems kind of irrelevant. Just because two people say something hateful doesn't make it suddenly not hateful.

How would you feel if someone like say, President Obama said "The Jews exist only to serve the Muslims, God gives them a long life so as to be better servants. Imagine that your camel would die, that would inconvenience you, so God gives them a long life". I'm sure people at JTF would be having conniption fits and giving him all those Yiddish and Hebrew curses, etc.

Let one of your guys say something identical to that about someone else and you're fine with it.

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

Ruby- my point is that it is misunderstood. Again when I read the Rambam I don't nor didn't see anything hateful. He was saying that a human being has to live up to their potential, if they dont use their human mind to reach G-D then they aren't "human" in the full sense, again I might not be using the correct wording and the explanation but w/e it is what it is.
 Also Jews generally are very antagonistic to this but I did hear from some Christians actually that they say that by the Prophets it says that nations will serve Israel, something about planting vineyards for Israel. But again I'm not saying it nor should you think that I am promoting it.

 Also I think in the context that he was saying it he was saying that after the Messianic time gentiles will merit to live a long life.

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

How would you feel if someone like say, President Obama said "The Jews exist only to serve the Muslims, God gives them a long life so as to be better servants. Imagine that your camel would die, that would inconvenience you, so God gives them a long life". I'm sure people at JTF would be having conniption fits and giving him all those Yiddish and Hebrew curses, etc.

 I would laugh.

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

I don't know what the Rambam said or if he meant anything like what Rabbi Ovadia Yosef said. I can't comment on that. But I do think a lot of people would find what ROY said very hurtful. But aside from that, his decisions led to great harm for the Jewish nation and thousands of individual Jews that were murdered or permanently maimed from Arab terrorism that Shas enabled (in exchange for some gelt and for some of its followers not having to get a job). I do not curse ROY, but I'm not one of his fans.

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

I don't know what the Rambam said or if he meant anything like what Rabbi Ovadia Yosef said. I can't comment on that. But I do think a lot of people would find what ROY said very hurtful. But aside from that, his decisions led to great harm for the Jewish nation and thousands of individual Jews that were murdered or permanently maimed from Arab terrorism that Shas enabled (in exchange for some gelt and for some of its followers not having to get a job). I do not curse ROY, but I'm not one of his fans.

 You know what I resent you repeating the usual gentile accusations against Jews as money grabbers and only interested in $ and such. To Jews reading this please be careful with that you say and how you expess yourselves. We do have a problem with Shas and Rabbi Ovadi's position but it is a Haskafic problem and let's leave it as such.