Worship the False Messiah : How could so many be fooled?

[muman613]

Shalom and Good Morning,

I have been watching, and sharing, a series by professor Abramson on Jewish history. One cannot look at recent Jewish history without confronting a sad fact that Jews have been so weary of the exile that they sometimes wish the messiah comes so badly that they are led astray.

False messiahs are a fact of Jewish life and sometimes it is hard to really want Moshiach to come without thinking maybe we are going to follow the path of the messianic failures. I know this very vividly being a part of Chabad where their Rebbe was considered a potential messianic figure (and taken to the extreme by some individuals).

The particular case of Shabbatia Tzvi is worth investigating. As someone mentioned in the 'Roman - Jewish War' thread there have been some false messiahs who relied heavily on mystical ideas which were not sound according to Jewish law. But because of the mass hysteria of the age the Jews were led to believe things which were wrong, and they were sadly disappointed by this messianic failure.




http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabbatai_Zevi

Sabbatai Zevi (שַׁבְּתַי צְבִי Shabbetai Tzvi, other spellings include Sabbatai Ẓevi, Shabbetai Ẓevi, Sabbatai Sevi, and Sabetay Sevi in Turkish) (August 1, 1626 – c. September 17, 1676[1]) was a Sephardic Rabbi[2] and kabbalist who claimed to be the long-awaited Jewish Messiah. He was the founder of the Jewish Sabbatean movement.

In February of 1666, upon his arrival in Constantinople, Sabbatai was imprisoned following orders issued by the grand vizier Ahmed Köprülü; in September of that same year, after being moved from different prisons around the capital to Adrianople (the imperial court's seat) for judgement on accusations of fomenting sedition, Sabbatai was given by Köprülü, in the name of the Sultan Mehmed IV, the choice of either facing death by some type of ordeal, or of converting to Islam. Sabbatai seems to have chosen the latter by donning on his head from then on a Turkish turban. He was then also rewarded by the heads of the Ottoman state with a generous pension for his compliance with their political and religious plans.[3] Some of his followers also converted to Islam—about 300 families who were known as the Dönmeh (converts).[4]

[shai77]

Well, despite all the bad that tzvi did, I have heard it said by some that he contributed to Zionism, to the urge to resettle the land. For people in those times I doubt there could be any other real catalyst for movement out of galut other than a potential moshiach. We have to consider that bar kochba was living in the land, which is an entirely different situation. For someone chutz haretz to gather the chutzpah to start a messianic ingathering movement was a different challenge.

[Debbie Shafer]

Matthew 24:4  Jesus said to his disciples stating what the Signs of the End of the Age were....."Watch out that no one deceives you.  For many will come in my name, claiming, " I am the Christ, and will deceive many.  The World is full of deception as predicted and false prophets with counterfeit signs of spiritual power and authority are trying to deceive man who is not grounded in the truth!

[muman613]

Matthew 24:4  Jesus said to his disciples stating what the Signs of the End of the Age were....."Watch out that no one deceives you.  For many will come in my name, claiming, " I am the Christ, and will deceive many.  The World is full of deception as predicted and false prophets with counterfeit signs of spiritual power and authority are trying to deceive man who is not grounded in the truth!

Yes.. And that one did enough damage.. Another false messiah during a period of oppression by Rome.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Well, despite all the bad that tzvi did, I have heard it said by some that he contributed to Zionism, to the urge to resettle the land. For people in those times I doubt there could be any other real catalyst for movement out of galut other than a potential moshiach. We have to consider that bar kochba was living in the land, which is an entirely different situation. For someone chutz haretz to gather the chutzpah to start a messianic ingathering movement was a different challenge.

?!

There is no connection whatsoever between Shabtai Tzvi and zionism.  He lived in a completely different era and time period.  Whoever you heard it from is either a sabbatean or frankist or they are totally misinformed and have no idea what they're talking about. 

Shabtai tzvi was an evil and disgusting person who perverted the kabballah for his personal gain and misled maybe even half of the Jewish people with his and nathan of gaza's corrupt exegesis of the zohar.   It is in fact the example above all examples of why the halacha must supercede the kaballah always and axiomatically.  Because his derivations within kaballa were accepted as valid interpretations by many kabbalists and esteemed rabbis of that time!  If we do not employ the halachic safeguards which are inviolable, the logical conclusion of where it will take us is to the tyranny of evil as promoted by shabtai tzvi jacob frank et al.   It is one of many valid reasons I keep a skeptical eye towards mysticism and I identify with the mainstream strand of Judaism which utilizes kabala for some interpretation and some hashkafic concepts but keeps the halacha (Jewish law) sacrosanct and legally binding on all Jews.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Muman, I think you should consider altering the title of your thread.   Whether false or real messiah, no one is supposed to worship him.  It's a person regardless.   

The fact is that the exile also distorted the Jews conception of what the messiah actually is, largely due to being surrounded and inundated with certain nonJewish religions that put a spin on it and warped it into their own theology.  It seems we are never immune from influences from the surrounding culture as we can witness ourselves today.   But that distortion of original ideas and lack of true understanding was a volatile mix with shabtao tzvi's cult persona and mysticism and directly led to his popularity in a major way.   We need to ask ourselves what truly is a messiah in Jewish belief.  I think when we answer that question authentically from the sources and know it well, we can never fall for a charlatan like tzvi.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

For someone chutz haretz to gather the chutzpah to start a messianic ingathering movement was a different challenge.

Let's be clear, that was not what tzvi was trying to do.  You are whitewashing him.

[shai77]

I would definitely give Shabatai the benefit of the doubt. If you watched the lecture you would hear that kabbalists in north Israel of the time were working to bring the messiah and were creating a situation of expectation where someone who may not have been qualified would want to claim to be the one and fulfill the expectations.

I can agree with a lot of what you say and I have stated before that I think much of the kabbalistic stuff is mystical nonsense which can by it's very nature be distorted and used for personal gain. However the fact that Shabatai started assigning land as though he were emperor is not surprising. The problem with the concept of messiah is that everyone in this world has to create their identity in relationship to the people they are surrounded by and if the messiah is basically, by definition is the most powerful person in the world and probably in history it is a natural psychological following that any mortal attempting to fulfill this role would see themselves as having the authority to do certain things such as give land to whoever he wants.

There is a saying:"power corrupts absolute power corrupts absolutely" and in human nature we have seen with almost all leaders this is basically true. So my criticism is not really targeted at people like Shabatai but against whoever created the concept of the messiah, who, if successful (if everyone agreed he was messiah), would probably have more power than any dictator that ever lived.

The problem was not entirely with Shabatai but with the very concept and legend of messiah itself. To be honest I have thought it over and it is a barely realistic legend; I doubt anyone, not Bar Kochba or any other mortal could live up to the expectations of both the pious of Israel and those who are not so religious. If messiah is only for those straight A students who keep all the law than a large part of Israel would be very let down the instant messiah comes.  I think it is time to do away with the idea of one man as messiah. It has never worked before and I don't see it working now. But who knows; maybe there is some man God can send into the world to accomplish this impossible task; if it is possible, I'm sure I have never met anyone even close to having this ability.

I'm not saying I admire or would follow Shabatai, but I wouldn't judge him so harshly; he sounds like a funny guy with a bit of an eccentric flair. If you are expecting some straight edge messiah good luck; only someone partly crazy, a bit arrogant and yes, probably extremely vain would even dream of fulfilling the role of the expectation of all humanity.

[muman613]

Shai77,

Belief in the Moshiach is one of Rambams 13 Principles of Judaism and it is a commandment to await the coming of Moshiach every day. It is not an optional part of normative Jewish belief.

We believe Hashem sent the 1st Moshiach through Moses. And when we are redeemed once again it will be similar to the exodus from Mitzrayim. Moshiach will come because the prophets tell us this is so.

[muman613]

Muman, I think you should consider altering the title of your thread.   Whether false or real messiah, no one is supposed to worship him.  It's a person regardless.   

The fact is that the exile also distorted the Jews conception of what the messiah actually is, largely due to being surrounded and inundated with certain nonJewish religions that put a spin on it and warped it into their own theology.  It seems we are never immune from influences from the surrounding culture as we can witness ourselves today.   But that distortion of original ideas and lack of true understanding was a volatile mix with shabtao tzvi's cult persona and mysticism and directly led to his popularity in a major way.   We need to ask ourselves what truly is a messiah in Jewish belief.  I think when we answer that question authentically from the sources and know it well, we can never fall for a charlatan like tzvi.

You are correct that Moshiach is never to be worshiped. But in a way those who followed this man were ascribing divine traits to a man who, upon examination, was a full-blown mental case. They placed their trust in a man rather than their father in Shamayim to the extent that their lives were damaged.

[muman613]

If Judaism is a belief system then Rambam codified these beliefs into 13 principles of faith.

They are:

1. Belief in the existence of the Creator, who is perfect in every manner of existence and is the Primary Cause of all that exists.

2. The belief in G-d's absolute and unparalleled unity.

3. The belief in G-d's non-corporeality, nor that He will be affected by any physical occurrences, such as movement, or rest, or dwelling.

4. The belief in G-d's eternity.

5. The imperative to worship G-d exclusively and no foreign false gods.

6. The belief that G-d communicates with man through prophecy.

7. The belief in the primacy of the prophecy of Moses our teacher.

8. The belief in the divine origin of the Torah.

9. The belief in the immutability of the Torah.

10. The belief in G-d's omniscience and providence.

11. The belief in divine reward and retribution.

12. The belief in the arrival of the Messiah and the messianic era.

13. The belief in the resurrection of the dead.

http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/332555/jewish/Maimonides-13-Principles-of-Faith.htm

[muman613]

The 12th principle (in that list) was made into a song which was sung by Jews being led to slaughter during the Holocaust. The 'Ani Maamim' (I believe completely) song is famous and has been adapted. The following 'hip hop' tune expresses the Jewish faith that Moshiach will come.

[muman613]

The more 'traditional' rendition of Ani Maamim by Mordechai Ben David...



Ani maamin beemuna shlemah
B'viat hamashiach
V'af al pi sheyitmameha
Im kol zeh achake lo
B'chol yom sheyavo


I believe with a complete belief
In the coming of the Messiah
And even though he may tarry
I will wait for him, whenever he comes

[shai77]

Shai77,

Belief in the Moshiach is one of Rambams 13 Principles of Judaism and it is a commandment to await the coming of Moshiach every day. It is not an optional part of normative Jewish belief.

We believe Hashem sent the 1st Moshiach through Moses. And when we are redeemed once again it will be similar to the exodus from Mitzrayim. Moshiach will come because the prophets tell us this is so.

Fine but Moses was directly called by G-d and had direct leadership from the voice of G-d. The current situation is at least as difficult as the one in Egypt with the lack of modesty and new forms of media.

If G-d is no longer speaking directly to anyone and hasn't in maybe 2,000 yrs, how could Jews expect anyone other than what most people would call 'a mental case who claims to hear prophecy' to claim to be messiah?

[Dr. Dan]

I personally think that if we don't think about it or talk about the messiah and just do what's right, he will be here before we know it.

[muman613]

While I respect your opinion Dr Dan, Rambam does not entirely agree with you. He says that an observant Jew (actually all Jews) should await the coming of Moshiach every day.... I have reproduced a portion of Rambams Hilchot Milachim (Laws of Kings) for those who have not seen what the Rambam says about this.


http://www.chabad.org/library/moshiach/article_cdo/aid/101744/jewish/Laws-Concerning-Kings-and-the-Messiah.htm

MISHNEH TORAH:
Hilchot Melachim
Laws Concerning Kings

Chapter XI

1. The Messianic King will arise in the future and restore the Davidic Kingdom to its former state and original sovereignty. He will build the Sanctuary1 and gather the dispersed of Israel.2 All the laws will be re-instituted in his days as they had been aforetimes;3 sacrifices will be offered, and the Sabbatical years and Jubilee years will be observed4 fully as ordained by the Torah.5

Anyone who does not believe in [Mashiach], or whoever does not look forward to his coming,6 denies not only [the teachings of] the other prophets but [also those] of the Torah and of Moses our Teacher. For the Torah attested to him, as it is said:

“G-d, your G-d, will return your captivity and have mercy on you. He will return and gather you [from all the nations whither G-d, your G-d, has scattered you]. If your banished shall be at the utmost end of the heavens [G-d, your G-d, will gather you from there]… and G-d, your G-d, will bring you [to the land that your fathers possessed, and you will possess it]…”7

These words, explicitly stated in the Torah, include all the [Messianic] statements made by all the prophets.

There is reference [to this principle] also in the section of Bilam.8 There he prophesied about the two meshichim (anointed ones): the first anointed one who is [King] David who saved Israel from the hand of their oppressors; and the final anointed one [i.e., Mashiach] who will arise from [the former’s] descendants and save Israel in the end.9 Thus it says there:

“I see him, but not now”10 this refers to David;

“I behold him, but not nigh” this refers to the Messianic King.

“A star steps out from Jacob” this refers to David;

“and a scepter will arise from Israel” this refers to the Messianic King.

“He will smite the great ones of Moab” this refers to David, as it says, “He smote Moab and measured them with a rope;”11

“and break all the children of Seth” this refers to the Messianic King, of whom it is said, “His rule will be from sea to sea.”12

“Edom will be a possession”13 this refers to David, as it is said, “Edom became servants to David;14

“[and Seir] shall be a possession” this refers to the Messianic King, as it is said, “Saviors shall ascend Mount Zion [to judge the mount of Esau]…”15

2. In context of the “cities of refuge,” too, it says, “When G-d, your G-d, will expand your borders… you shall add three additional cities…”16 This has never yet taken place, and the Holy One, blessed is He, does not command anything in vain.17

As for the [other] prophets’ utterances [about Mashiach], there is no need for prooftexts as all the [prophets’] books are full of this concept.

3. Do not think that the Messianic King will have to perform signs and wonders and bring about novel things in the world, or resurrect the dead, and other such things. It is not so.18 This is seen from the fact that Rabbi Akiva was a great sage, of the sages of the Mishnah, and he was an armor-bearer of King Bar Koziba19 and said of him that he is the Messianic King: [R. Akiva] and all the wise men of his generation considered him to be the Messianic King until [Bar Koziba] was killed because of sins, and when he was killed they realized that he was not;20 but the sages had not asked him for any sign or wonder.

The essence of all this is that this Torah [of ours], its statutes and its laws, are forever and all eternity, and nothing is to be added to them or diminished from them.21

(Whoever adds or diminishes anything, or interprets the Torah to change the plain sense of the commandments, is surely an impostor, wicked, and a heretic.)22

4. If a king arises from the House of David23 who meditates on the Torah and occupies himself with the commandments like his ancestor David, in accordance with the written and oral Torah,24 and he will prevail upon all of Israel to walk in [the ways of the Torah] and strengthen its breaches,25 and he will fight the battles of G-d26 it may be assumed that he is Mashiach.27

If he did [these things] successfully (and defeated all the nations around him28), built the Sanctuary on its site29 and gathered the dispersed of Israel he is definitely Mashiach!30 He will [then] correct the entire world to serve G-d in unity, as it is said, “For then I will turn to the peoples a pure tongue that all shall call upon the Name of G-d and serve Him with one consent.”31

(If he did not succeed to that extent or was killed, it is clear that he is not the [Mashiach] promised by the Torah … for all the prophets said that Mashiach is the redeemer of Israel and their savior, and he gathers their dispersed and reinforces their commandments…)32

Chapter XII

1. One is not to presume that anything of the ways of the world will be set aside in the Messianic era, or that there will be any innovation in the order of creation; rather, the world will continue according to its norms.33

As for that which is said in Isaiah, that “the wolf will dwell with the sheep and the leopard will lie down with the kid” 34 this is an allegory and metaphor. It means that Israel shall dwell securely alongside the wicked heathens who are likened to wolves and leopards, as it is said “a wolf from the plains ravages, a leopard lies in wait over their cities.”35 [In the Messianic era] all will return to the true religion and will neither steal nor destroy, but consume that which is permitted, in repose alongside Israel, as it is said, “the lion will eat straw like the ox.”36 All other such expressions are also allegories, and in the era of the Messianic King everyone will come to know what the allegory is about and what allusions are indicated.37

2. The sages said: “There is no difference between the present age and the Messianic era but [delivery from] subjection to foreign powers.”38

From the plain sense of the words of the prophets it is apparent that in the beginning of the Messianic era will occur the war of Gog and Magog;39 and that prior to the war of Gog and Magog a prophet will arise to correct Israel and to prepare their hearts, as it is said, “Behold, I am sending you the prophet Elijah [before the coming of the great and awesome day of G-d].”40 He will not come to declare the pure impure or the impure pure, nor to disqualify people presumed to be of legitimate lineage or to legitimize those presumed to be of disqualified lineage;41 but to establish peace in the world, as it is said, “He will turn the heart of the fathers to the children…”42

Some sages say that Elijah will come before the coming of Mashiach.43

All these and similar matters, however, man will not know how they will occur until they come to pass; for in the [statements of the] prophets these are undefined matters, and the sages, too, do not have a clear tradition on these subjects except for the [apparent] implications of the Scriptural verses. That is why they have differences of opinion in these matters. In any case, neither the sequence of these events nor their details are fundamental to the faith.

A person should not involve himself with the homiletical statements or protract on the Midrashim speaking of these or similar matters, nor is one to consider them fundamental; for they do not lead to either fear or love [of G-d].44

Likewise, one is not to calculate “ends” [dates of the Messianic redemption]. The sages said, “May the spirit expire of those who calculate the ‘ends.’ ”45 Rather, one is to await [the redemption] and believe the principle of this matter as we have explained.

3. In the era of the Messianic King, when his kingdom will be established and all of Israel will gather around him, all of them will have their pedigree determined by him,46 by means of the Holy Spirit that will rest upon him, as it is said, “He will sit as a refiner and purifier.”47 First he will purify the descendants of Levi,48 saying “This one is a legitimate Kohen (priest), and this one is a legitimate Levite,” while diverting those of improper lineage to the [rank of] Israelites.49 Thus it is said, “The governor [Nechemiah] said to them… until there will rise a Kohen with the Urim and Tumim;”50 from this you can infer that the determination of presumed pedigree and the public declaration of lineage is by means of the Holy Spirit.51

As for the Israelites, he will only determine their tribal lineage, that is, he will inform that “this one is of such-and-such a tribe and that one is of such-and-such a tribe.”52 He will not pronounce on those presumed to be of legitimate ancestry that “this one is a mamzer and that one is a ‘slave’;”53 for the law stipulates that once a family is intermixed [with the Jewish community at large] it remains intermixed.54

4. The sages and the prophets did not long for the Messianic era so that they may rule over the whole world or dominate the heathens, nor to be exalted by the nations, nor in order that they may eat, drink and be merry; but only to be free [for involvement] with the Torah and its wisdom, without anyone to oppress and disturb them, so that they may merit the life of the World-to-Come, as we explained in Hilchot Teshuvah.55

5. In that era there will be neither famine56 nor war,57 neither envy nor strife,58 because good will emanate in abundance and all delightful things will be accessible as dust.59 The one preoccupation of the entire world will be solely to know G-d. The Israelites, therefore, will be great sages and know the hidden matters,60 and they will attain knowledge of their Creator to the extent of human capacity, as it is said: “The earth shall be full with the knowledge of G-d as the waters cover the sea!”61

[muman613]

What is gained by this waiting? As Shai indicates that it sometimes get's hard to continue to believe that the Moshiach will be sent considering all the terrible persecutions and troubles the Jewish people have endured. Maybe the belief in Moshiach causes Jews to fall away from trust and faith because he has not been sent... But there are reasons why we are told to await his coming.


http://www.chabad.org/library/moshiach/article_cdo/aid/100903/jewish/Awaiting-Mashiach.htm

VII. Awaiting Mashiach

A. The Obligation to Await

“The vision is yet for an appointed time, but at the end it shall speak and not lie. Though he tarry wait for him, for it will surely come… it will not be late!” (Habakuk 2:3)

“Therefore wait for Me, says G-d, for the day that I rise to the prey; for My judgment is to gather nations, that I assemble kingdoms, to pour out upon them My indignation, all My fierce anger. For all the earth shall be consumed by the fire of My jealousy.” (Zephaniah 3:8)1

“Happy are all those that wait for him.” (Isaiah 30:18)2

Waiting for Mashiach<, anticipating his coming, is not simply a virtue but a religious obligation. Rambam thus rules that whoever does not believe in and whoever does not await (eagerly looking forward to) the coming of Mashiach, in effect denies the whole Torah, all the prophets beginning with Moses.3 In the popular formulation of his thirteen Principles of the Faith (the hymn of Ani Ma’amin) this is put as follows:

“I believe with complete faith in the coming of Mashiach. Though he tarry, nonetheless I await him every day, that he will come.”

As stated above,4 some authorities view this principle as an integral part of the first of the Ten Commandments which states “Anochi I am G-d, your G-d, who has taken you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.” (Exodus 20:2) The connection may be seen in the fact that the initial word Anochi is linked with redemption:

“Anochi signifies the first redemption from Egypt and the last redemption through Mashiach.”5 Anochi is an explicit expression of compassion, consolation and comfort.6 Indeed, Anochi is an acronym with every one of its four letters signifying Biblical prophecies of the Messianic consolations and comfort.7

In view of this legal obligation to await Mashiach, therefore, one of the first questions an individual is asked on the Day of Divine Judgment is “Tzipita liyeshu’ah did you look forward to salvation?”8

To believe in the coming of Mashiach and to await it are two separate concepts. “To believe” is a doctrinal affirmation as for any other part of the Torah: affirming the principle of Mashiach who will come eventually, whenever that may be. “To await” means an active and eager anticipation of the redemption, that it occur speedily: “I await him every day…,” literally:9

“In ikveta deMeshicha (on the ‘heels of Mashiach,’ i.e.,) when the time arrives for the glory of G-d to be revealed in the world through the coming of our righteous Mashiach, there will surely be leaders of Israel… who will urge the masses of Israel to strengthen the faith and to return with teshuvah, and to arouse the people to prepare themselves with teshuvah and good deeds for the coming of Mashiach…

“In those days there will also be people of little faith who will not believe those words, even as we find that during the Egyptian exile ‘they did not listen to Moses because of anguished spirit and hard labor’ (Exodus 6:9)…

“Each one will argue that he does not question the truth of the possibility of the redemption, but merely doubts the time of the redemption as to when it will occur. Yet there is an explicit verse in Malachi (3:1) that ‘The lord whom you seek (i.e., the king Mashiach) will suddenly come to his palace, and the messenger of the covenant whom you desire (i.e., Elijah the prophet), behold he comes…’ At the very least, therefore, one is to consider every day that perhaps he will come that day. We find this reflected in the explicit ruling in the Gemara10Chafetz Chaim, Chizuk Emunah, quoted in Chafetz Chaim al Hatorah, Vayera, p. 56f., note 2. Note also Torat Ze’ev, quoted in Hagadah shel Pesach Mibet Levi [Brisk], p. 120: “It is incumbent to await the coming of Mashiach every single day, and all day long… It is not enough to believe in the coming of Mashiach, but each day one must await his coming… Furthermore, it is not enough to await his coming every day, but it is to be in the manner of our prayer ‘we await Your salvation all the day,’ that is, to await and expect it every day, and all day long, literally every moment!”09

B. Kivuy: The Merit and Effect of Awaiting

“Everything is (bound up) with kivuy (hoping; awaiting).”11See Targum Yehonathan, and Bereishit Rabba 98:14, on this verse.12Shemot Rabba 30:2412

“When the Israelites enter the synagogues and houses of study, they say to the Holy One, blessed be He, ‘Redeem us!’ He responds to them: ‘Are there righteous people among you? Are there G-d-fearing people among you?’ They reply: ‘In the past… there were… Nowadays, however, as we go from generation to generation it grows darker for us…’ The Holy One, blessed be He, then says to them: ‘Trust in My Name and I shall stand by you… for I shall save whoever trusts in My Name.’ ”13Midrash Tehilim 40:114

Though the study of Torah is ever so important, the need to await and hope for the redemption is addressed especially to the scholars and students of Torah, as G-d rebukes them: “Though the words of the Torah are beloved unto you, you did not do right in awaiting My Torah but not (the restoration of) My Kingdom.”14

“[The patriarchs] exclaimed before Him: ‘Master of the universe, maybe there is no restoration for the children?’ He said to them: ‘When there is a generation that looks forward to My Kingdom, they will be redeemed immediately,’ as it is said, ‘There is hope for your future, says G-d, that (your) children shall return to their own boundary’ (Jeremiah 31:16).”15

The daily Amidah contains the request, “Speedily cause the offspring of Your servant David to flourish and enhance his power through Your salvation, for we hope for Your salvation all the day…” The last phrase, “for we hope…,” seems strange: what kind of reasoning is that? If we justly deserve the redemption, we shall merit it even without that hope; if we do not deserve it, of what avail will that hope be? The meaning, however, is clear:

“Speedily cause the offspring of Your servant David to flourish…;” and if it should be said that we lack merit, cause it to flourish anyway “because we hope for your salvation…,” that is, because we have the kivuy (hope). By virtue of that kivuy we deserve that You redeem us!16

C. Demanding Mashiach

True belief in the Messianic redemption is reflected and verified in sincere anticipation, in eagerly looking forward to the coming of Mashiach. In turn, the sincerity of this hope and awaiting is tested by what is done to achieve it. For something truly desired one will ask and beg, demand, and do everything possible to attain it. The same applies to the obligatory awaiting and anticipation of Mashiach.

G-d insists that we prove the sincerity of our claim to want Mashiach by doing everything in our power to bring it about, including storming the Gates of Heaven with demands for the redemption:

“The children of Israel shall sit many days without king and without prince, and without sacrifice… Thereafter, the children of Israel shall return and ask for G-d, their G-d, and for David their king, and they shall be in fear before G-d and (hope) for His goodness in the end of days.” (Hosea 3:4-5)

“Ask for G-d” refers to the restoration of the Kingdom of Heaven; “David their king” the restoration of the Kingdom of the House of David, through Mashiach; “fear before G-d… His goodness” the restoration of the Bet Hamikdash. For Israel will not see the redemption until they shall return and ask for these!17

“Israel shall not be redeemed until they will confess and demand the Kingdom of Heaven, the Kingdom of the House of David, and the Bet Hamikdash!”18

R. Shimon bar Yochai taught a parable of a man who punished his son. The son did not know why he was being punished, but thereafter his father said to him: “Now go and do that which I had ordered you many days ago and you ignored me.”

“Even so, all the thousands that perished in battle in the days of David, perished only because they did not demand that the Bet Hamikdash be built. This presents an a fortiori argument:

“If this happened to those in whose midst there had not been a Bet Hamikdash, which, therefore, was not destroyed in their days, yet they were punished for not demanding it, how much more so then with regards to ourselves in whose days the Bet Hamikdash is destroyed and we do not mourn it and do not seek mercy for it!”19

We pray for the redemption several times every day. Even so, requesting by itself is not enough. One must demand the redemption, just as with the wages of a hired worker: the law stipulates that if the worker does not demand his wages, there is no obligation to give it to him on the very day that he completes his work.20 So, too, we must demand our redemption. Failure to do so shows that this matter is clearly not that urgent to us!21

[muman613]

Prodezra Beats discusses this long wait in his song 'Until When II'..



And also in 'Where are you?'...

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

I would definitely give Shabatai the benefit of the doubt. If you watched the lecture you would hear that kabbalists in north Israel of the time were working to bring the messiah and were creating a situation of expectation where someone who may not have been qualified would want to claim to be the one and fulfill the expectations.

I am astounded that you could say something like this.   You must not realize the damage this phony and creep did to the Jewish people.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Fine but Moses was directly called by G-d and had direct leadership from the voice of G-d. The current situation is at least as difficult as the one in Egypt with the lack of modesty and new forms of media.

If G-d is no longer speaking directly to anyone and hasn't in maybe 2,000 yrs, how could Jews expect anyone other than what most people would call 'a mental case who claims to hear prophecy' to claim to be messiah?

As I mentioned before, it's important that we understand what exactly the messiah is.   The concept became distorted and misunderstood in the exile due to the influence of foreign religions, mysticism etc.  That is a big reason why a faker like shabtai tzvi even got a cult following to begin with.   The criteria for who is a messiah are NOT related to the claims the tzvi was making about himself or what nathan of aza was saying about him.   We are not waiting for a miracle worker to show up and bring us onto his spaceship.  We do not need to drink the kool aid.

[shai77]

I am astounded that you could say something like this.   You must not realize the damage this phony and creep did to the Jewish people.

Shabatai; A loner, a poet, a singer, a bit of a seducer and leading luminary of false messianism; Shabatai was as the good lord made him and was warped by influences of a world he didn't create. He probably sincerely wanted to build the Temple but didn't have the means to do so. May he be exonerated and rest in peace.

[shai77]

As I mentioned before, it's important that we understand what exactly the messiah is.   The concept became distorted and misunderstood in the exile due to the influence of foreign religions, mysticism etc.  That is a big reason why a faker like shabtai tzvi even got a cult following to begin with.   The criteria for who is a messiah are NOT related to the claims the tzvi was making about himself or what nathan of aza was saying about him.   We are not waiting for a miracle worker to show up and bring us onto his spaceship.  We do not need to drink the kool aid.

As I mentioned before, it's important that we understand what exactly the messiah is.   The concept became distorted and misunderstood in the exile due to the influence of foreign religions, mysticism etc.  That is a big reason why a faker like shabtai tzvi even got a cult following to begin with.   The criteria for who is a messiah are NOT related to the claims the tzvi was making about himself or what nathan of aza was saying about him.   We are not waiting for a miracle worker to show up and bring us onto his spaceship.  We do not need to drink the kool aid.

Obviously; With all the Christ imagery the image of messiah has been severely distorted (may all who maliciously and knowingly perpetuated this myth take the punishment they deserve for portraying the messiah as an unmarried Jew who died without children at 33, but may those who don't know better be forgiven).

If God is not speaking to anyone in Israel then someone like Shabatai is what we get. If Moses had to be urged, practically forced to carry out his messianic task in Egypt then imagine what would be required today for the real, successful messiah?

The problem is that the criteria for who is a messiah as outlined by Maimonides is that he in-gathers the exiles and builds the temple but how can someone who tried to do some of these things succeed in doing that without direct guidance or prophecy? I think the concept is inherently flawed; I think it is flawed to think that anyone can really earn the title of messiah no matter what they do; they would have to be sent and strongly urged; This goes to more questions of free will etc...but it would take some sort of super-human courage and perfect knowledge combined with matchless people skills without direct contact with the divine.

It also creates conflicts with people who actively want to do these things; if you agree with some of what Maimonides says, it could be construed than anyone who attempts the ingathering of exiles but doesn't claim to be Moshiach is a faker, like NK ideology. Or, what then is the Temple Institute doing? Maybe they are just gathering the materials for Moshiach to use or are they actively seeking to rebuild it?

Even Moses said something like send who you will send but don't make me do this. Therefore messiah would have to be greater than Moses. I don't think people worshipped Shabatai Tzvi, they simply wanted an object for their messianic longing, someone who could give them what they've been promised. In this way, they are basically all innocent; they were downtrodden folk who wanted to be the main actors in an uplifting religious saga that was staged long ago.

But don't listen to me; Personally, I'm not that big a fan of God for putting Israel in too much suspense, for waiting too long and for allowing the false imagery of messiah to spread throughout the world. I don't want so much freewill if the punishments are as the Torah claims; and some of the trials, temptations and riddles of faith were just too much for mortals. I'm a bit of a fan of some of Voltaire's quotes.

[shai77]

Prodezra Beats discusses this long wait in his song 'Until When II'..



And also in 'Where are you?'...

will the messiah be a hip hopper? what would Moses sound like on the mic if he was a rapper?
I've writtend some lyrics, I hope they won't offend you;

Hook:

Beat em to death and dump the body, yeah beat em to death, beat em to death.

I dumped the body in the sand, and fled the land, I'm wanted for murder and running from
the pharoahs hand

Beat em to death and dump the body, yeah beat em to death, beat em to death.

It wasn't my fault, it was an act of passion
a man was gettin whipped so I got a little mad and

Beat em to death and dump the body, yeah beat em to death, beat em to death.

I'm hiding out in the desert with my homie Jethro
duckin the po-po and my old friend the pharaoh

Beat em to death and dump the f'in body, yeah beat em to death, beat em to death.

If u want more Moses rappin lyrics let me know.

[Ephraim Ben Noach]

I want more! I'm glad Moses beat him to death!
Voltaire?
Oh, by the way I think Jesus was married...

[shai77]

I want more! I'm glad Moses beat him to death!
Voltaire?
Oh, by the way I think Jesus was married...

I'm chillin with Zipporah
She's bringing me bread
It's been 8 years and I haven't gotten _ _ _ _
We're keeping it tznius, it's definitely love
We finally got married she's such a sweet dove

I wish I could stay
But I gotta go
some strange voice has called me
Go back to the Israelites and lead them out, Mo

If you want more Moses rappin lyrics let me know.