Who Thinks I'm a lying, taqiyyah practicing muslim?

[kellymaureen]

Why do I need to improve my debating skills, Ive read the koran, the haidth, the sura, every book Robert Spencer has written, Im perfectly capable of debating a muslim, and have on many occasions, however its a waste of time, either they tell me that Im the silly infidel and ive simply "misunderstood" or if they see I know too much call me an islamophobe and move on....I dont think debate will win the war on islam.
Anyway, I dont need to be on here to support the movement.

G-d love you.  You are funny.  Of course your debating skills are fabulous but you must remember that this entire silly thread wasn't because of you, but me.  You happened to have a similar experience with the same individual.  So if anyone will leave it will be me not you.  I'm not going anywhere because I support Jews, Jewry, Israel and righteous Gentiles.....  You do the same, so no need to get in a twist...  if you feel you've been wronged in anyway, have it out with that individual and be done with it.....  That's the way I feel.  One need never "sit idly by"... if you know what i mean?

Lol well acutally its not her fault, people will do things that are wrong, as long as they are left to get away with it, Ive said my piece....sorry Mar, I took over your thread...I am a big mouth infidel arent I....you can have it back now

[jsullivan]

Wow Kelly, I really have to admire your principled stand. And you are 100% correct about the evil Islamic Nazi religion. The term "religion" is not necessarily a positive term, Kelly. Communism, Nazism and atheism are also "religions" in a sense. They are a set of beliefs, very evil beliefs but many people in history have worshipped at the altars of these false religions.

Kelly, JTF's position is clear: Islam is an utterly evil and monstrous Nazi religion that is committed to world conquest. There is no "moderate" or "peaceful" wing, branch or stream of Islam. As Chaim has said a million times, saying there are "moderate" Muslims is like saying there are "moderate" Nazis.

Your position on Islam is identical to the position of JTF and Chaim. But there are members of this forum who do not always agree with the positions of JTF and Chaim. Chaim does not believe in banning people who disagree with us unless they violate the rules of the forum. Chaim wants us to debate and persuade people, not ban them. There are two reasons for this policy: One, we have succeeded in many cases in changing people's minds about many issues and in making them see things more clearly. Two, even if we do not change certain people, it still sharpens our debating skills and makes the forum more interesting and provocative.

Kelly, you certainly should not leave. If there is any place where you belong, it is here! Sure, we are going have people whom we disagree with. But that's what we're here for, to change people for the better. Sometimes we succeed, sometimes we fail, but we always have to try to bring people the truth. If we're not going to convince more people and educate more people, then what's the purpose of JTF? We want to become a mass movement to save America and Israel. That can't happen unless we persuade large numbers of people to join us, including some people who have been misled and have mistaken views.

[MarZutra]

My thread?  I might have been the one responsible for this silly and lower than grade 5 venture but I certainly didn't create this thread...

[kellymaureen]

Lol I know, sorry the thread that was made because of you

[MarZutra]

Jimmy is right.  You must consider this position.  Like I said to Yacov, I had a feeling this was going to be blown far out of proportion.....

[kellymaureen]

I am all for debate and trying to get people to see the light,  however statements that were made, and we dont need to keep repeating them, cant be tolerated based on 'debate' and there comes a time when you need to take a honest and hard look at the situation and judge for yourself whether or not you are being taken for a ride, banging your head against the wall for nothing, no progress, or if there is genuine progress.  Mr Spencer uses the term " the mask slipped" alot in his writing, meaning if we take a good hard look at statements we can see the real meaning.....

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

Jimmy, it is time we get rid of Sarah.  We gave her an entire year to prove herself. She has proven she has not listened to a word Chaim has said.

Whether or not she would be persecuted by other Muslims is irrelevant. She has given us severe reason to doubt anything she has ever said to us and she is causing way too much division on this forum. If it is her or Kelly, she has to go.

Chaimfan

[Vito]

Ok, I'm convinced she's a Muslim.. get her the HELL OFF this forum!

[Ehud]

I will say that on another thread that I said I was horrified after reading the koran, sura and haidth (and I think anyone on this forum would be if they were being honest) and Sarah, you DID tell me that I "must have misunderstood the koran if I was horrified" because it was nothing more than a "bunch of fables and stories"...which is completely untrue, it is a book of war, with the end result being dar al islam. 
 I read with perfect comprehension, AND have the benefit of 2 ex muslim friends who assure me that this nonsense about us silly infidels "misunderstanding" the koran is ridiculous, that its something that muslims will tell us to keep us off guard or make us doubt what we are reading.
Only YOU can decide what you are, what you believe, but I assure you that I understood perfectly what I read, and I am still horrified at what I read.
Islam is a blood cult, its followers are terrorists, and mohammad was a disgusting pedophile, war lord, and the goal of islam is to have the entire world run by muslims under sharia law.  I will stand by these statements and be willing to leave the forum if the majority of people disagree with them. 
http://jtf.org/forum_english/index.php?topic=9305.msg92707#msg92707
is the thread in question

I will say that I sincerely hope that you do leave islam fully, and realize your full potential, with all the rights and freedoms that you are entitled to.

In all fairness, is it taqiyya if the person saying the things about Islam actually believes those things to be true?  Is it taqiyya when a person is taught these things, and it is all he knows, and he simply repeats them?  I think taqiyya has to involve active deception, not passive deception.  I don't think it can properly be considered taqiyya considering the fact that she is 15 and is probably taught these things and even believes them to be true, things like "Islam is peace".  In order for it to be taqiyya, she needs to KNOW that it's false, and lie about it in order to trick people.  But maybe not?  Is it still taqiyya if that person is taught these things because the ones teaching him want to spread these lies, and the person accepts them and in turn spreads the falsehoods to other people, thinking that they are telling people the truth?  In effect, it has the same result, spreading falsehoods about Islam.  Does it matter whether the person KNOWS that they are engaging in taqiyya or not?  I think it does, which is why I don't believe that Sarah is engaging in it herself.  I'm willing to give her the benefit of the doubt and assume that she is simply repeating what she has been told, and she hasn't been told that what she is taught is taqiyya.  After all, there are some branches of Islam that teach that Islam is legitimately a religion of peace, etc.  I think Sarah belongs to that kind of branch of Islam.

Zeev, I am amazed to see you write that there are "branches of Islam" that are "legitimately a religion of peace". THERE IS ONLY ONE ISLAM AND THAT IS THE ISLAM OF THE KORAN AND THE HADITH, WHICH ARE NAZI BOOKS OF GENOCIDE. There are no "branches" of this evil terrorist religion that are peaceful. When you write that, you sound like George Bush, Bill O'Reilly and Sean Hannity. If someone was born a Muslim but rejects jihad (the Islamic war to conquer the world and exterminate all non-Muslims), then they are no longer a Muslim.
The fact that Sarah defends aspects of Islam is unfortunate. It shows that she remains confused and conflicted about her identity. But Sarah's presence in our movement and her open mind does NOT represent any "branch" of Islam. All of the "branches" of Islam would literally murder someone like Sarah.

OK, there was a misunderstanding here.  I didn't say that there are branches that are legitimate branches of a religion of peace, I merely said that some "Muslims" are taught that Islam is a religion of peace even though those teachings are not representative of true Islam.  Those "branches" attempt to show that Islam is legitimately a religion of peace even though we all know that it is not.  The comparison with reform Judaism is a good one, I was merely saying that some branches of Islam try to pretend that Islam is a "religion of peace" because the people who follow those movements do not follow real Islam.  I do not believe Islam to be a religion of peace in any way, shape, or form, I was just saying that some people who believe that they are following true "Islam" think that it is a peaceful religion.

As for why you, kellymaureen, are considering to leave the forum, I cannot understand.  We are all behind you in this matter and we do not believe that you are "misinterpreting" Islam in any way. 

[MarZutra]

Personally, as I have told Yacov already, that I do not believe Sarah should be banned but either watched or warned to be more careful.  Some "mistakes" may well be honest but making them during a vital issue is something that should not and cannot happen....imo. 

As for KM, I'm sure she understands how we all feel.  Her position is clear and very valid which does deem consideration and attention. 

Enough is enough with this thread for me.  I'm not wasting one more electron from my mental capacity...frankly it is starting to, if hadn't already, lower my IQ

[Ari]

Geez, I miss a little more than a day and all this breaks out.  Considering her background I commend Sarah for seeking out alternative points of view.  She's still yound and may still be a little confused, but I'm sure as she grows older she will see for sure that there is no room for compromise when it comes to Islam.

[Ultra Requete]

Kelly you're great person with firm and 100% percent correct but not politicall correct belives on pisslam; please don't leave becouse of Sarah; She's suposed to be young and confused becouse of her pisslamic upbring so I'm willing to give her all benfits of daubt atleast for now... and I think we must help her to leave this cult (it's not religion just like comunism or nazism); but becouse of this I neither trust her; she must be watched very carefullly becouse some ofher statement are troubling especialy after reading this threat. Last thing people here are very pasionate and sometimes even paronoid so the fight do starts from silly things; I wish we woud have more patience and undesrtanding for one another; we have real enemies to fight and they're outside of walls!
P.S Kelly if you want I I can ask Chaim for you If any form of pissslam apology is tolerated in JTF; and can post any of your future questions if you'll decide to leave although I plead you to stay.     

[newman]

I support Kelly's stance on islam 110%.

In Sarah's case I feel conflicted.( I havn't seen the thread calling the IDF 'occupiers' yet, BTW) The poor kid is torn right down the middle. She knows (in her heart) that muslims are scum and their 'religion' is vile, cruel and ugly. But it's very hard for a young girl to turn on everything she's been taught to identify with since birth in a short time. To do so effectively means turnig against her family, friends AND community. We need to be patient (and we have been).

At the same time, after more than a year, It's time for Sarah to make a decision.

Sarah............

You see the pictures of stoning, torture, mutilation and mass murder. You hear the threats to destroy Britain, the USA, Israel and the west. You hear the comments of the immams and mullahs. These things are not the products of a 2% fringe minority. They are spoken and commited by mainstream muslim clerics and their followers.

Sarah, if you want to wear a bag, have NO rights, condone the mutilation of children (remember the pics of the 8 YO Iranian boy?), want to see Jews murdered and live under sharia......then stay a muslim.

 If you disagree that Jews should be murdered, want to have your own life with a career, full self-determination and rights, want freedom and DON'T want to live under sharia then you must renounce islam now.

Sorry, Sweetie.........but you can't have it both ways. You can't pretend that all the millions upon millions of muslims we all see on TV are not real and that somewhere there is an invisible, peaceful muslim majority. There just isn't.

 I know that you and your family aren't jihadist crazies. Unfortunately, you can't support a monstrous ideology without becoming a monster in time. You can't defend elements of nazism such as hitler's road building and healthcare programs while ignoring the overall hatefull, vile nature of it's core ideology. You're either for nazism 100% or against nazism 100%.

The time has come where you must choose. You're either for islam (and ALL the stuff that goes with it) or against it. You don't have to choose another faith immediately, but you must choose 'islam' or 'NOT islam'.

[Dr. Dan]

I agree with Newman...Sarah, over all is a good person, but she has to be stronger..

[Kiwi]

Ok, I'm convinced she's a Muslim.. get her the HELL OFF this forum!

I second that

[Ralph1]

She makes it look like she's a Zionist and even a Kahanist. If this is true then how can she think Muhammad is a prophet. Muhammad massacred Jews. You either think that sleazy terrorist is a prophet and his murders were justified or he's a terrorist.

[Dexter]

Of course not, Sarah .
You are very spaciel especiely because you are/was a Muslim.
Muslims are "brainwashed" as Charedi Jews are "brainwashed", or as some Christians are "brainwashed". But in fact, it is not "brainwashing", it is a way of educate that developes as a result of having Christian/Muslim/Jews(religion) parents .

And telling me that I misunderstood the koran because I know it is evil and a book of war and I was horrified by reading it.

I do not think that this forum is the place to be defending ANY aspects of that vile, ugly cult.  Is there even one person here who thinks that there is anything in the koran, haidth or sura that can in ANY possible way be defended???  If people here think that islam, muslims, the koran, haidth, or sura are defensable, then I am obviously in the wrong place, I was looking for a forum that deplored islam and muslims AND supported the civilized non muslim world, especially Israel.

Maybe I just found my next question for ask JTF

Of course there are very nice things in Islam, as cherity. Mainly, the Muslims treat the Jews much more better than the Christians did until the second half of the 20th century (after Hitler's death, Hitler was Catholic by the way).
But the fact that Islam is very voilence religion can not be tolerated!
Every religion have voilence aspects, every religion have a diffrent "level" of voilence in it.
Some religion tells you about violence, as Judaism (destroy 7 peoples etc') and there are religion that tell you to ACT voilence .

[ftf]

I'd like to give my opinion on this situation, but unfortuanately, someone appears to have deleted Sarah's posts, so I can't comment on them.

From what I have seen, I think that Sarah is actually really confused.

[Dexter]

I'd like to give my opinion on this situation, but unfortuanately, someone appears to have deleted Sarah's posts, so I can't comment on them.

From what I have seen, I think that Sarah is actually really confused.

I have read pages 1 and 2, where are the pages that the posts were deleted in ?

[Kananga]

Why don't you let Sarah be Sarah and get off her case?  She has her own mind, just like the nazi who come here and spew crap all over the board, but many of you rather her act as some hateful intolerant rag as part of the whole "A"-men chorus.

[ftf]

I'd like to give my opinion on this situation, but unfortuanately, someone appears to have deleted Sarah's posts, so I can't comment on them.

From what I have seen, I think that Sarah is actually really confused.

I have read pages 1 and 2, where are the pages that the posts were deleted in ?

I don't know, but people are refferring to posts of hers that now don't exist in there posts in this topic.

[cjd]

I'd like to give my opinion on this situation, but unfortuanately, someone appears to have deleted Sarah's posts, so I can't comment on them.

From what I have seen, I think that Sarah is actually really confused.

I have read pages 1 and 2, where are the pages that the posts were deleted in ?

I don't know, but people are refferring to posts of hers that now don't exist in there posts in this topic.

If your looking at last nights discussion she was not there.

[mord]

Sarah is not practicng anything i spoke to her

[Dexter]

She is honest because if she were practicing Takiyah she'd be saying Islam is a peaceful religion and Muhammad is a prophet etc so unless she says that she's not practicing Takiyah. Besides she's 15 according to her profile so how could a child practice Takiyah?

Perhaps she's practicing Takiyah by saying she's 15 

Hey hey hey, wait a second.
YOU actually think that ALL muslims are animals, liars, barberians ? I HAVE A MUSLIM FREIND, he acts much better than some Jews, because he is a HUMAN BEING. Everyone can be nice and freindly, no one is naturally evil . Apropos "evil", "evil" is a point of view and a prespective of one indvedual, what seems evil to YOU, seems nice to me, and so on. Therefor, a Muslim can be nice to some people, and evil to other people .
That is a complete nonsense, no one's parents tell their chile "My son, from now on, always lie to non-Muslims!" .

[ftf]

I'd like to give my opinion on this situation, but unfortuanately, someone appears to have deleted Sarah's posts, so I can't comment on them.

From what I have seen, I think that Sarah is actually really confused.

I have read pages 1 and 2, where are the pages that the posts were deleted in ?

I don't know, but people are refferring to posts of hers that now don't exist in there posts in this topic.

If your looking at last nights discussion she was not there.

Really? Then where are the posts in which she says these things tha are being discussed, can someone point me to them? I haven't seen them.