JTF.ORG Forum
Torah and Jewish Idea => Torah and Jewish Idea => Topic started by: Lubab on February 10, 2008, 01:24:58 PM
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I was just listening to Ask JTF and heard Chaim was asked about suicide and he said that in a terminally ill person's case where there is very little chance of recovery, that suicide is justified, or ending the life in some way.
I was horrified by this and am registering my public disagreement here. As much as I love you Chaim, I must represent today that this does not represent the Torah view.
Each moment of life is precious, and taking away a life a moment too soon is murder.
I was very surprised by Chaim's answer and I hope he will correct the record ASAP and if I am wrong I would like to hear why and I will reconsider, but I am quite certain that I am not wrong here and I want to defend what I believe to be the Torah position on the topic.
Thank you.
And i don't mean any disrespect whatsoever to the Chaim, the great Jewish hero, whom I love like a brother.
Lubab
New Edit: P.S. As I explain later in this thread I am NOT referring to the debate about whether you can "pull the plug"...the question was about suicide, which means doing something proactive to directly end the life by either the patient or the doctor or someone else.
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I was sort of thinking the same way, (except for the revealing of secrets which does sound somewhat right, allthought I dont know). Lubab I want to ask you- is it concidered suicide if one prays or while praying asks or thinks of G-d killing him/her? Or someone saying something like "please G-d take me from this low world, and bring me closer to you in the higher spiriutal worlds" etc.
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My father asked a trusted Rabbi about DNR and he said that according to the Torah it is permitted if the person has less than a year to live since he is permitted to refuse medical treatment in such a case. I myself am ignorant in this subject. Suicide is forbidden of course.
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Euthanasia, or so called "mercy killing" is another form of murder if it is non-voluntary, especially when the patient is in a coma or something. If it is voluntary it is like suicide because you never know even the slightest possibility could arise for a miraculous cure or recovary. If God hasn't let the time for the person to die, come even though they are terminally ill then why should they take their own life.
However if a person is nearly brain dead but being kept alive artificially by a life-support machine, then I think there is some controversy.
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I totally agree with Chaim on this. He wasn't saying that euthanasia was justified, he was saying that if their is absolutely no chance the person would survive, why should the person have to be tortured further? He wasn't saying that people could just kill themselves left and right.
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Because it's not allowed to suicide acorrding to Judaism.
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http://www.medethics.org.il/articles/JME/JMEM10/JMEM.10.5.asp
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Quality and Sanctity of Life
Rabbi Feinstein explicitly endorses the concept of the sanctity of life by stating “it is, or should be, absolutely clear, without any doubt, to anyone who has studied our holy Torah and who fears God, that one must heal or save every individual without any differentiation based upon his intelligence or physical stamina,”[12] but in other contexts he relates to the concept of quality of life. In answer to a question of whether there are patients who should not be treated? He responds “this question obviously refers to a terminally ill patient who can live for only several weeks or months at most. Such patients often should not be treated. The key concern is their quality of life.”[13] Given the value of life in Rabbi Feinstein’s thinking, we must understand why in this situation quality of life, particularly the burden of pain, becomes the deciding factor. Based on the above-mentioned duty principle, we think Rabbi Feinstein himself provides the answer. “It may very well be that there is no biblical obligation to cure such a patient, or rather attempt to prolong his life. The commandment “And he may heal” may not apply to a [physican treating a] patient for whom there is no potential for healing.”[14] Quality of life becomes a dominant factor when there is no hope to cure the patient and hence no normative obligation. Rabbi Feinstein is also very concerned about the quality of life of a dying patient in concert with the modern hospice movement, and rules that regarding a dying patient “it is certainly forbidden to cause any unnecessary pain to the patient. If no medical care is indicated, there is no rational reason why routine blood chemistry should be done on the patient…..Only that which is clearly for the patient’s benefit should be done….. The imminence of death does not relieve the physician from the obligation to do everything for the comfort of the patient.”[15] It is clear to Rabbi Feinstein that for the duty-bound physician other normative obligations such as “Love your neighbor as yourself” certainly apply to dying patients, and there is still much a doctor can do for these patients, such as relieving suffering. However, he fervently opposes any form of active euthanasia.[16]
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I also agree with Chaim on this. I think the people who don't would change their minds if they were the ones dying of terminal cancer.
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I also agree with Chaim on this. I think the people who don't would change their minds if they were the ones dying of terminal cancer.
You are right!
I watched cancer eat through my aunt to the point that her bones would shatter each time they tried to move her. She was kept doped to the eyeballs but still would scream out in agony once in a while. Sometimes death is better than life.
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I totally agree with Chaim on this. He wasn't saying that euthanasia was justified, he was saying that if their is absolutely no chance the person would survive, why should the person have to be tortured further? He wasn't saying that people could just kill themselves left and right.
Who certifies that there is absolutely no chance of survival?
I read a story somewhere about a woman with terminal cancer, who was admitted Euthanasia because she was affirmed that she only had 2 months to live and was in constant agony. It was later discovered that she was actually in remission.
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How un perfect man can judge when his hour come? That's thing only G-d Know. Suicide or so called euthnasia shud never be publicly excused or justified.
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It should be a case by case situation with the preferred decision to choose life over death.
The examples are way too many to mention when death is more acceptable over life in this situation. All I can say is that the overwhelming majority of the time, life is the best choice. But I will refrain from saying that it is the best choice 100% of the time. I don't think it is. However, it is really close to a 100% of the time.
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I think Chaim may be right if there is ZERO chance of recovery and they are suffering badly. You can put on a timer on the machine or something so you are not technically doing it yourself. But I don't remember exactly. I'm pretty sure at the point where a person's recovery to consciousness is 100% impossible without a doubt they are considered already halachically dead, aren't they?
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I also agree with Chaim on this. I think the people who don't would change their minds if they were the ones dying of terminal cancer.
Yes, it's fascinating to see young people in the peak of their health pontificating on whether seriously ill, desperately suffering people have the right to choose to end their pain or not. ::)
Quite frankly I think it's frightening that some people think that God might send down a 'miraculous cure'. The Orthodox Jews have the right to impose whatever they want on their own community, but the great masses of the gentiles should not be beholden to heavenly precepts which are of no concern to them.
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I also agree with Chaim on this. I think the people who don't would change their minds if they were the ones dying of terminal cancer.
Yes, it's fascinating to see young people in the peak of their health pontificating on whether seriously ill, desperately suffering people have the right to choose to end their pain or not. ::)
Quite frankly I think it's frightening that some people think that G-d might send down a 'miraculous cure'. The Orthodox Jews have the right to impose whatever they want on their own community, but the great masses of the gentiles should not be beholden to heavenly precepts which are of no concern to them.
Why would the gentiles be forced to do anything? We are talking about Jewish law here regarding Jews. I don't know how this comment is relevant.
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I also agree with Chaim on this. I think the people who don't would change their minds if they were the ones dying of terminal cancer.
Yes, it's fascinating to see young people in the peak of their health pontificating on whether seriously ill, desperately suffering people have the right to choose to end their pain or not. ::)
Quite frankly I think it's frightening that some people think that G-d might send down a 'miraculous cure'. The Orthodox Jews have the right to impose whatever they want on their own community, but the great masses of the gentiles should not be beholden to heavenly precepts which are of no concern to them.
Sanctity of life appears in more religions as a moral issue, then just Judaism. Jews have the right to do what they want according to their own laws, I just gave my point of view and didn't intend to dictate any rules or anything.
And you know what, the "great masses" of gentiles and other people apart from Jews are the majority that are faced with the problem of Euthanasia, so they can be just as morally concerned. You're not the only one who believes in G-d's job of taking and granting life.
Are you Jewish Salty German?
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If I had a serious disease and no form of cure and end up laying in a hospital bed the rest of my life which really isn't living. With tubes controling me and I need someone else to feed and change me, and someone to clean me up cause I wouldnt be able to use the bathroom on my own, at that point pull the plug.
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I was just listening to Ask JTF and heard Chaim say that in a terminally ill person's case where there is very little chance of recovery, that suicide is justified, or ending the life in some way.
Each moment of life is precious, and taking away a life a moment too soon is murder.
Lubab , I for one 1000%agree with Chaim. I do not see it as murder, I see it as a act of kindness.
Being in a position which I have done so, I can state that its not a horrible act against a person its a blessing.
The choice is never made lightly, the family and person concerned are fully aware.
You might find that a strange thing to say but, even if a person is in a coma, they are still fully aware of what is going on.
I have the strongs belief due to I have assisted and been apart of this many times, that it is NOT against any code of conduct.
We swear an oath to maintain life, we also swear an oath to relieve suffering.
And thats what we do. To purposely take a life in that case is far from easy, it never gets easier. The Toll on that care giver is huge.
Every time you do it a little piece of your heart and soul dies with that person, if you think there is no price to an action you are clearly wrong.
And if that makes me a Murderer so be it.
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With every suffering comes a relief.
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IF someone was hit by a bus or car and their injuries are no way can be repaired and they are going to be in a stage where they can't really care for themselves at all in anyways possible way. Then why keep them to suffer?
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IF someone was hit by a bus or car and their injuries are no way can be repaired and they are going to be in a stage where they can't really care for themselves at all in anyways possible way. Then why keep them to suffer?
Why would God keep them still alive suffering? If they should have died then why didn't it happen in the car crash?
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IF someone was hit by a bus or car and their injuries are no way can be repaired and they are going to be in a stage where they can't really care for themselves at all in anyways possible way. Then why keep them to suffer?
I think its more the question, does that person want to stay alive?
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IF someone was hit by a bus or car and their injuries are no way can be repaired and they are going to be in a stage where they can't really care for themselves at all in anyways possible way. Then why keep them to suffer?
Why would G-d keep them still alive suffering? If they should have died then why didn't it happen in the car crash?
Its not a matter of G-d making people suffer, its about the will of the person concerned. Even in that act, people have a choice.
I have seen and have a man currently who should of died 5 years ago still alive, because he said " he is not really yet"
Think people underestimate the spirit and will of man, G-d made us a strong and willful creation, he does not send us anything we are not fit to bear.
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IF someone was hit by a bus or car and their injuries are no way can be repaired and they are going to be in a stage where they can't really care for themselves at all in anyways possible way. Then why keep them to suffer?
I think its more the question, does that person want to stay alive?
I know it becomes a very difficult yet morbid decision. And I mean those that are forever suffering to stay alive. Terminally ill for example that no matter what. For example: If someone has cancer that can never be cured and slowly eating away at them and comes to a point that they have nothing but suffering just to continue to live, I really don't see that as living.
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he does not send us anything we are not fit to bear.
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So we can live with the suffering then?
Isn't there some bias in actually asking the person whom it concerns whether or not they would wish to die through a "mercy killing"....when they themselves are either in some degree of pain or feeling completely useless knowing that their time may come quite soon?
They would want to die peacefully and dignified instead of prolonging their state. Though their want can be overshadowed by the slightest chance. If people start to allow Euthanasia by the law, it's boundries will begin to expand just as with abortion.
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IF someone was hit by a bus or car and their injuries are no way can be repaired and they are going to be in a stage where they can't really care for themselves at all in anyways possible way. Then why keep them to suffer?
I think its more the question, does that person want to stay alive?
I know it becomes a very difficult yet morbid decision. And I mean those that are forever suffering to stay alive. Terminally ill for example that no matter what. For example: If someone has cancer that can never be cured and slowly eating away at them and comes to a point that they have nothing but suffering just to continue to live, I really don't see that as living.
I don't think its morbid, or differcult in some respects. Its a choice that is made on what is the best likely outcome. I know i sound harsh, but I don't fear death, I am not scared of it.
As for my that choice has been made, I have what they call a living will. legally stating my right to die.
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IF someone was hit by a bus or car and their injuries are no way can be repaired and they are going to be in a stage where they can't really care for themselves at all in anyways possible way. Then why keep them to suffer?
I think its more the question, does that person want to stay alive?
I know it becomes a very difficult yet morbid decision. And I mean those that are forever suffering to stay alive. Terminally ill for example that no matter what. For example: If someone has cancer that can never be cured and slowly eating away at them and comes to a point that they have nothing but suffering just to continue to live, I really don't see that as living.
I don't think its morbid, or differcult in some respects. Its a choice that is made on what is the best likely outcome. I know i sound harsh, but I don't fear death, I am not scared of it.
As for my that choice has been made, I have what they call a living will. legally stating my right to die.
Yet being accountable for the sins of suicide....if you believe that you have the legal right to choose your time of death.
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he does not send us anything we are not fit to bear.
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So we can live with the suffering then?
Thats life Sarah of course we can live with suffering, many choose that. As I stated its up to the person themselves, no one has a right to take a life if it is not willing given up to them. There is a huge difference.
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IF someone was hit by a bus or car and their injuries are no way can be repaired and they are going to be in a stage where they can't really care for themselves at all in anyways possible way. Then why keep them to suffer?
I think its more the question, does that person want to stay alive?
I know it becomes a very difficult yet morbid decision. And I mean those that are forever suffering to stay alive. Terminally ill for example that no matter what. For example: If someone has cancer that can never be cured and slowly eating away at them and comes to a point that they have nothing but suffering just to continue to live, I really don't see that as living.
I don't think its morbid, or differcult in some respects. Its a choice that is made on what is the best likely outcome. I know i sound harsh, but I don't fear death, I am not scared of it.
As for my that choice has been made, I have what they call a living will. legally stating my right to die.
Yet being accountable for the sins of suicide....if you believe that you have the legal right to choose your time of death.
Everyone has a right to choose to live or die. I have a right to refuse medical treatment and request palliative care, that is my right and my legal right as a citizen of Australia.
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I used to volunteer and then work in a couple of nursing homes growing up. It can be a true horror show to be forced to live with a terminal illness. I hope I never have to go through something like that, and I agree that life should not be prolonged in these situations when there is no genuine hope! After all, we're going to a better place G-d willing. O0
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I was just listening to Ask JTF and heard Chaim say that in a terminally ill person's case where there is very little chance of recovery, that suicide is justified, or ending the life in some way.
Each moment of life is precious, and taking away a life a moment too soon is murder.
Lubab , I for one 1000%agree with Chaim. I do not see it as murder, I see it as a act of kindness.
Being in a position which I have done so, I can state that its not a horrible act against a person its a blessing.
The choice is never made lightly, the family and person concerned are fully aware.
You might find that a strange thing to say but, even if a person is in a coma, they are still fully aware of what is going on.
I have the strongs belief due to I have assisted and been apart of this many times, that it is NOT against any code of conduct.
We swear an oath to maintain life, we also swear an oath to relieve suffering.
And thats what we do. To purposely take a life in that case is far from easy, it never gets easier. The Toll on that care giver is huge.
Every time you do it a little piece of your heart and soul dies with that person, if you think there is no price to an action you are clearly wrong.
And if that makes me a Murderer so be it.
I don't believe that withdrawing care from a terminally ill person is murder.
A person or their health care proxy should have the right to stop treatment -when that treatment is futile. That is not suicide.
When possible the decision should be made with family and the medical team. Everyone should be on the same page.
I have participated in many end of life cases at work.
Skippy is right - it is never easy.
Yet it is never easy when we prolong life - in futile cases - and watch families destroyed by that.
In some cases - every decent memory of their loved one replaced with one of suffering.
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Everyone here seems to be confusing two very different issues.
A lot of you are talking about the issue of whether we must prolong life by a terminally ill patient. This is NOT the issue I am talking about here.
The question was about suicide. I think it was clear to any listener that we were talking about a proactive act by someone...either the patient, or the doctor to end the life.
If you leave the patient so that whatever happens happens (i.e. DNR or something like that) that is one thing and may be totally permissible and I believe it is permissible.
But if we are talking about someone committing suicide or homicide by proactively doing something to end the life which I believe is murder according to all opinions.
According to Jewish law, when the person appears to be dying you must not talk or touch the person as their soul is leaving them because you may cause their soul to leave a moment too soon and even though they might have died a moment later, this is MURDER.
People can say their own opinions, but I'm not really concerned with my opinion or anyone else's opinion. I'm trying to talk about what is the Torah view on this. The Torah was given to us by G-d and YES he does have a right to say what we should do in these situations.
If Chaim meant something else, I should hope he will make this clear.
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I don't think the Bible speaks on this either way--therefore, we must make our own judgments. I don't think any of us have the right to speak for someone who has free will and faculties in that situation. Therefore I agree with Chaim, DWI, Skippy, Dr. Dan., etc. on this issue.
At my church, an elderly couple I know went through exactly this. The elderly husband had serious heart surgery about three or four years ago and never really recovered, and simply became an increasing burden on his (able-bodied) elderly wife, as his health went on an exponential downward spiral. Whether it was due to poor lifestyle habits in his youth (which age-related diseases usually are partially attributable to) or simply the irreversible and unavoidable effects of aging, this man became nothing but a burden and life-sapper for his wife, and was completely unable to accomplish any more good or usefulness for his remaining time on earth.
When he finally passed last fall, his wife, though grieving, was relieved, and I can see why.
Now--I would never go around saying who must die, but if this man on his own decided that this miserable existence (which I would call worse than death) was only dragging all of his loved ones down and wanted out, I certainly would not call it sin.
I definitely hope something takes me long before I become a vegetable or parasite...
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lubab at what point is someone considered halachically dead, and what do you mean by 'not doing anything' to let them die naturally as opposed to doing an act? If they are on life support, they will remain alive in vegetative state, no?
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Lubab is right, the Halacha is Halacha. And suffering cant be an excuse (G-d save us from these things). If the Halacha says that the patient cant be killed (murdered) then its forbidden even if they are in pain. And if this comes up, then it was decreed by G-d to happen this way (may G-d save us from such things).
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lubab at what point is someone considered halachically dead, and what do you mean by 'not doing anything' to let them die naturally as opposed to doing an act? If they are on life support, they will remain alive in vegetative state, no?
We generally go by when the heart stops, but it's not so simple.
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This much is clear in halacha. Killing someone in a vegetative state, is still murder.
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Yes, I agree with Lubab.
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Everyone here seems to be confusing two very different issues.
A lot of you are talking about the issue of whether we must prolong life by a terminally ill patient. This is NOT the issue I am talking about here.
The question was about suicide. I think it was clear to any listener that we were talking about a proactive act by someone...either the patient, or the doctor to end the life.
If you leave the patient so that whatever happens happens (i.e. DNR or something like that) that is one thing and may be totally permissible and I believe it is permissible.
But if we are talking about someone committing suicide or homicide by proactively doing something to end the life which I believe is murder according to all opinions.
According to Jewish law, when the person appears to be dying you must not talk or touch the person as their soul is leaving them because you may cause their soul to leave a moment too soon and even though they might have died a moment later, this is MURDER.
People can say their own opinions, but I'm not really concerned with my opinion or anyone else's opinion. I'm trying to talk about what is the Torah view on this. The Torah was given to us by G-d and YES he does have a right to say what we should do in these situations.
If Chaim meant something else, I should hope he will make this clear.
Then why don't you ask Chaim this week. I saw you didn't post anything to him yet.
Because I'm not worrying about Chaim. I'm worried about YOU GUYS getting the wrong impression of what the Torah really says.
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I think it's a very complex topic, and not one answer would be right for every situation. However, I would want to err on the side of life in most cases, because I would be afraid of coercion by family members of a terminally ill or elderly patient.
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This much is clear in halacha. Killing someone in a vegetative state, is still murder.
Thank you. I believe you're right, actually from what I remember, I think my rabbi had told me that in the event of a terrible accident or heart failure etc (G-d forbid), that a person if they knew there was no chance at survival, they could choose not to put the person on life support to be saved into vegetative state. Once putting them on, they are not allowed to go and take them off because you can't do something to speed the process at all. But I'm pretty sure you can make that initial choice not to put ONTO a repirator if it is known there is no chance at recovery. I could be wrong though.
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This much is clear in halacha. Killing someone in a vegetative state, is still murder.
I think leaving someone in pain and suffering is worse than murder.
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I think when it comes to the topic of euthanasia, we need to differentiate between "passive" and "active" euthanasia. Passive euthanasia would be something like cutting off someone's feeding tube. I'm not sure a DNR would be considered any time of euthanasia, but I suppose that could also fall under the confines of passive euthanasia. Active euthanasia would be the act of active killing, sort of like what Dr. Kevorkian does. I don't remember exactly what Chaim said and in what context he said it. But I would be surprised that Chaim would be in favor of this since he was very much outspoken against the Terri Shaivo case which was an example of passive euthanasia. Perhaps Chaim was referring to evil people who deserve to die and that they should all save us the suffering by just killing themselves. I don't know :-\
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This much is clear in halacha. Killing someone in a vegetative state, is still murder.
I think leaving someone in pain and suffering is worse than murder.
G-d makes the rules. Not us.
First you need to accept that.
Later we can talk about why what G-d says here actually makes more sense than what you are saying. But that's for later.
First we need to understand whose world this is.
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This much is clear in halacha. Killing someone in a vegetative state, is still murder.
I think leaving someone in pain and suffering is worse than murder.
G-d makes the rules. Not us.
First you need to accept that.
Later we can talk about why what G-d says here actually makes more sense than what you are saying. But that's for later.
First we need to understand whose world this is.
Out of respect because you are a Rabbi, I will not comment any more on this.
But my point is this, I don't agree with everything that is written, and when I am finally judged by G-d himself thats when I will justify myself him and only him and he already knows my reasons for my actions.
I live peace with G-d and my beliefs.
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This much is clear in halacha. Killing someone in a vegetative state, is still murder.
I think leaving someone in pain and suffering is worse than murder.
G-d makes the rules. Not us.
First you need to accept that.
Later we can talk about why what G-d says here actually makes more sense than what you are saying. But that's for later.
First we need to understand whose world this is.
Out of respect because you are a Rabbi, I will not comment any more on this.
But my point is this, I don't agree with everything that is written, and when I am finally judged by G-d himself thats when I will justify myself him and only him and he already knows my reasons for my actions.
I live peace with G-d and my beliefs.
It just so happens that there is truth to what you say. There is a Torah concept that a life poorly lived is worse than death. Your soul senses this truth. But that truth is misapplied in this case as you will hopefully understand some day before you reach 120.
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I do NOT think we should be killing off disabled or terminal people. BUT, if they make the decision on their own, I see no basis to stop them.
Also--we must remember that in Biblical times, we did not have all of these life-sustaining treatments that artificially prolong the lives of ultra-ill terminal people. People who reached a state of incapacity so severe that they could not survive on their own generally died in short order. I once heard the figure that 90% of our healthcare dollars are spent on the last two weeks of human life. This is absurd, , arrogant, wasteful, outrageous, and against the will of G-d more than any self-administered euthanasia.
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I once heard the figure that 90% of our healthcare dollars are spent on the last two weeks of human life. This is absurd, , arrogant, wasteful, outrageous, and against the will of G-d more than any self-administered euthanasia.
How can you talk about a moment of human life in terms of dollars and cents? All the money in the world is not worth one moment of human life. I think what you just said was immoral and repugnant and it's against what the Bible says. You must preserve life at all costs, including your own life. It's not yours to mess with. It's on loan from G-d. He gives it and takes it when He wants to.
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Lubab you are of course right. If you can't destroy your neighbor's possessions, why would you be able to destroy Hashem's?
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I guess this is a subject that does come up with many of our families. I just wish it was as black and white as saying evil must be destroyed.
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I think when it comes to the topic of euthanasia, we need to differentiate between "passive" and "active" euthanasia. Passive euthanasia would be something like cutting off someone's feeding tube. I'm not sure a DNR would be considered any time of euthanasia, but I suppose that could also fall under the confines of passive euthanasia. Active euthanasia would be the act of active killing, sort of like what Dr. Kevorkian does. I don't remember exactly what Chaim said and in what context he said it. But I would be surprised that Chaim would be in favor of this since he was very much outspoken against the Terri Shaivo case which was an example of passive euthanasia. Perhaps Chaim was referring to evil people who deserve to die and that they should all save us the suffering by just killing themselves. I don't know :-\
Cutting off a feeding tube is starving someone to death and is murder. It took her more than a week to die from it. But cutting artificial life support is different because the person dies right away because it is only keeping them alive artificially. Someone with a feeding tube is alive on their own but they need to eat to stay alive just like a healthy person, they just need help eating so they need the tube since they can't eat on their own.
Is this correct Lubab?
There are different opinions about this. It's not so simple. I'm not an expert in those issues.
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I was just listening to Ask JTF and heard Chaim say that in a terminally ill person's case where there is very little chance of recovery, that suicide is justified, or ending the life in some way.
Each moment of life is precious, and taking away a life a moment too soon is murder.
Lubab , I for one 1000%agree with Chaim. I do not see it as murder, I see it as a act of kindness.
Being in a position which I have done so, I can state that its not a horrible act against a person its a blessing.
The choice is never made lightly, the family and person concerned are fully aware.
You might find that a strange thing to say but, even if a person is in a coma, they are still fully aware of what is going on.
I have the strongs belief due to I have assisted and been apart of this many times, that it is NOT against any code of conduct.
We swear an oath to maintain life, we also swear an oath to relieve suffering.
And thats what we do. To purposely take a life in that case is far from easy, it never gets easier. The Toll on that care giver is huge.
Every time you do it a little piece of your heart and soul dies with that person, if you think there is no price to an action you are clearly wrong.
And if that makes me a Murderer so be it.
With this post you reminded me of the time we had to "sacrifice" our lab rats and lab mice after we were done with our experimentation. Killing mammals emotionally, is hard to do... I can't imagine what euthenasia woudl feel like. All know it woudl be such a horrible feeling to be the one invovled in making that decision or even doing it. :(
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I was just listening to Ask JTF and heard Chaim say that in a terminally ill person's case where there is very little chance of recovery, that suicide is justified, or ending the life in some way.
Each moment of life is precious, and taking away a life a moment too soon is murder.
Lubab , I for one 1000%agree with Chaim. I do not see it as murder, I see it as a act of kindness.
Being in a position which I have done so, I can state that its not a horrible act against a person its a blessing.
The choice is never made lightly, the family and person concerned are fully aware.
You might find that a strange thing to say but, even if a person is in a coma, they are still fully aware of what is going on.
I have the strongs belief due to I have assisted and been apart of this many times, that it is NOT against any code of conduct.
We swear an oath to maintain life, we also swear an oath to relieve suffering.
And thats what we do. To purposely take a life in that case is far from easy, it never gets easier. The Toll on that care giver is huge.
Every time you do it a little piece of your heart and soul dies with that person, if you think there is no price to an action you are clearly wrong.
And if that makes me a Murderer so be it.
With this post you reminded me of the time we had to "sacrifice" our lab rats and lab mice after we were done with our experimentation. Killing mammals emotionally, is hard to do... I can't imagine what euthenasia woudl feel like. All know it woudl be such a horrible feeling to be the one invovled in making that decision or even doing it. :(
Don't equate animals with humans...
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Lubab is right, the Halacha is Halacha. And suffering cant be an excuse (G-d save us from these things). If the Halacha says that the patient cant be killed (murdered) then its forbidden even if they are in pain. And if this comes up, then it was decreed by G-d to happen this way (may G-d save us from such things).
the only thing that i have ever learned in regards to this is that it is NOT permitted to end someone's life. However, to withdraw the medicine in permitted in certain cases. And to relieve pain obviously.
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I was just listening to Ask JTF and heard Chaim say that in a terminally ill person's case where there is very little chance of recovery, that suicide is justified, or ending the life in some way.
Each moment of life is precious, and taking away a life a moment too soon is murder.
Lubab , I for one 1000%agree with Chaim. I do not see it as murder, I see it as a act of kindness.
Being in a position which I have done so, I can state that its not a horrible act against a person its a blessing.
The choice is never made lightly, the family and person concerned are fully aware.
You might find that a strange thing to say but, even if a person is in a coma, they are still fully aware of what is going on.
I have the strongs belief due to I have assisted and been apart of this many times, that it is NOT against any code of conduct.
We swear an oath to maintain life, we also swear an oath to relieve suffering.
And thats what we do. To purposely take a life in that case is far from easy, it never gets easier. The Toll on that care giver is huge.
Every time you do it a little piece of your heart and soul dies with that person, if you think there is no price to an action you are clearly wrong.
And if that makes me a Murderer so be it.
With this post you reminded me of the time we had to "sacrifice" our lab rats and lab mice after we were done with our experimentation. Killing mammals emotionally, is hard to do... I can't imagine what euthenasia woudl feel like. All know it woudl be such a horrible feeling to be the one invovled in making that decision or even doing it. :(
Don't equate animals with humans...
oh no! I don't mean to. What i'm saying is when i had to sacrifice the lab mice and lab rats, it was hard....I cannot even fathom what it woudl feel like if it were an actual human being!
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I find this whole conversation very interesting. I always hear atheists tell me "if the only reason you don't murder is because it says in the Bible, then you are a sick person".
Well it turns out many people still don't have it straight and we would all be a lot better off if people just followed what it says in the Bible.
I didn't realize Skippy, that you had actually done this many times.
Did you actively cause the death or just pull the plug and the death happened on its own? There's a big difference.
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I was sort of thinking the same way, (except for the revealing of secrets which does sound somewhat right, allthought I dont know). Lubab I want to ask you- is it concidered suicide if one prays or while praying asks or thinks of G-d killing him/her? Or someone saying something like "please G-d take me from this low world, and bring me closer to you in the higher spiriutal worlds" etc.
Every time we say Shma we are supposed to imagine ourselves willing to sacrifice our lives for G-d. Is that what you mean? That's a mitzvah, not suicide. But I'm not sure I understand the question.
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How can you talk about a moment of human life in terms of dollars and cents? All the money in the world is not worth one moment of human life. I think what you just said was immoral and repugnant and it's against what the Bible says. You must preserve life at all costs, including your own life. It's not yours to mess with. It's on loan from G-d. He gives it and takes it when He wants to.
How is it Biblical to spend hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of dollars on expensive heart/lung machines, last-ditch desperation surgeries, experimental superdrugs (that at most slow down the cancer by two or three weeks), etc. on patients in the same category as Ariel Sharon (ys"vz)? It is because of Western society's absurd arrogance and insistence of these enormously futile end-of-life treatments that healthcare insurance is so abominably expensive for all of us.
Please show me how G-d demands that societies spend tens of billons of dollars keeping the likes of Sharon alive that could have been used in providing basic coverage--or even fancy, lifesaving treatments--for people who could actually use them.
Please show me how insistence upon another two or three weeks of torturous, miserable, and quite likely unconscious "life" is preferable to a natural death.
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How can you talk about a moment of human life in terms of dollars and cents? All the money in the world is not worth one moment of human life. I think what you just said was immoral and repugnant and it's against what the Bible says. You must preserve life at all costs, including your own life. It's not yours to mess with. It's on loan from G-d. He gives it and takes it when He wants to.
How is it Biblical to spend hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of dollars on expensive heart/lung machines, last-ditch desperation surgeries, experimental superdrugs (that at most slow down the cancer by two or three weeks), etc. on patients in the same category as Ariel Sharon (ys"vz)? It is because of Western society's absurd arrogance and insistence of these enormously futile end-of-life treatments that healthcare insurance is so abominably expensive for all of us.
Please show me how G-d demands that societies spend tens of billons of dollars keeping the likes of Sharon alive that could have been used in providing basic coverage--or even fancy, lifesaving treatments--for people who could actually use them.
Please show me how insistence upon another two or three weeks of torturous, miserable, and quite likely unconscious "life" is preferable to a natural death.
You are now mixing in a few different issues by throwing Sharon into the equation. I don't think that's a good idea in a discussion like this. We want to stay on point talking about a regular person and whether it's worth spending a boat-load of money to preserve their life, old and sick though they may be.
You want scriptural support for this, right?
Coming up...give me a day to research and I'll be back with sources G-d willing.
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I have to agree with Chaim, too.
Nobody has the right to tell another person who is suffering hideously (with no chance of a cure) to "grin and bear it for G-d's glory".
I'm not proposing anybody be bumped off against their will. But when a lucid patient requests the means to terminate their suffering I think it is their inalienable right.
Same for those who make living wills requesting death in the event of them becoming 'vegetables'. I also know soldiers who have made pacts with their comrades that in the event they are hopelessly maimed (blinded AND crippled etc) that their comrades finish them in the field. This is not uncommon.
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I have to agree with Chaim, too.
Nobody has the right to tell another person who is suffering hideously (with no chance of a cure) to "grin and bear it for G-d's glory".
I'm not proposing anybody be bumped off against their will. But when a lucid patient requests the means to terminate their suffering I think it is their inalienable right.
Same for those who make living wills requesting death in the event of them becoming 'vegetables'. I also know soldiers who have made pacts with their comrades that in the event they are hopelessly maimed (blinded AND crippled etc) that their comrades finish them in the field. This is not uncommon.
Blaspheme.
I'll bet you even Chaim doesn't agree with this. I think we just have a misunderstanding here.
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In essence, Newman, you have no problem with Dr. Kevorkian, right?
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In essence, Newman, you have no problem with Dr. Kevorkian, right?
I don't..........provided his services are ONLY utilised by sane, rational, lucid patients and not the delerious or unconscious or greedy relatives wishing to give grandpa a shove into the next world to get his estate.
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In essence, Newman, you have no problem with Dr. Kevorkian, right?
I don't..........provided his services are ONLY utilised by sane, rational, lucid patients and not the delerious or unconscious or greedy relatives wishing to give grandpa a shove into the next world to get his estate.
Well that my friend is murder/suicide in the eyes of the Torah. Please do not go around saying this stuff and calling yourself a Noahide because it's a big violation of the Noahide laws to do this kind of thing. You guys only have seven laws. Don't screw this one up.
Why does everyone always say "who am I to tell someone they can't do this?". It's not about who we are. It's about what G-d says is right.
If I was making this stuff up I'd agree with you. Who am I to tell anyone what to do? But since I'm just repeating what G-d says in the Torah I can tell pretty much anyone what they should do. They might not want to listen, but I can tell them.
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This whole conversation has been so enlightening. It shows clearly how good and smart people can become completely immoral when they abandon the Torah view and rely only on their own understanding and emotion.
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I think Chaim has point to prove when it comes to the topic of terminally ill individuals been given a painless way out...
But i have to agree with Lubab on this one, every second of life is valuable and people shouldn't just quit on it even if everything seems useless...
and Lubab is also correct about suicide going against the Torah ...
Lubab you are a courageous and brave man to challenge Chaim when it comes to the torah and you are 100% right on this. ;)
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In essence, Newman, you have no problem with Dr. Kevorkian, right?
I don't..........provided his services are ONLY utilised by sane, rational, lucid patients and not the delerious or unconscious or greedy relatives wishing to give grandpa a shove into the next world to get his estate.
Well that my friend is murder/suicide in the eyes of the Torah. Please do not go around saying this stuff and calling yourself a Noahide because it's a big violation of the Noahide laws to do this kind of thing. You guys only have seven laws. Don't screw this one up.
Why does everyone always say "who am I to tell someone they can't do this?". It's not about who we are. It's about what G-d says is right.
If I was making this stuff up I'd agree with you. Who am I to tell anyone what to do? But since I'm just repeating what G-d says in the Torah I can tell pretty much anyone what they should do. They might not want to listen, but I can tell them.
I cannot believe that the G-d of Abraham Issaac and Jacob 'requires' a terminally ill cancer patient to lay in agony and scream until they pass out day after day after day. That sounds like something the demon 'allah' of the muSSlims would require..........not the G-d of Israel.
Anyone who could sit idle while a loved one endures such torment is inhuman.
And before you mention pain relief just remember it only works up to a point. You can't anesthetise bone AT ALL.
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In essence, Newman, you have no problem with Dr. Kevorkian, right?
I don't..........provided his services are ONLY utilised by sane, rational, lucid patients and not the delerious or unconscious or greedy relatives wishing to give grandpa a shove into the next world to get his estate.
Well that my friend is murder/suicide in the eyes of the Torah. Please do not go around saying this stuff and calling yourself a Noahide because it's a big violation of the Noahide laws to do this kind of thing. You guys only have seven laws. Don't screw this one up.
Why does everyone always say "who am I to tell someone they can't do this?". It's not about who we are. It's about what G-d says is right.
If I was making this stuff up I'd agree with you. Who am I to tell anyone what to do? But since I'm just repeating what G-d says in the Torah I can tell pretty much anyone what they should do. They might not want to listen, but I can tell them.
I cannot believe that the G-d of Abraham Issaac and Jacob 'requires' a terminally ill cancer patient to lay in agony and scream until they pass out day after day after day. That sounds like something the demon 'allah' of the muSSlims would require..........not the G-d of Israel.
Anyone who could sit idle while a loved one endures such torment is inhuman.
And before you mention pain relief just remember it only works up to a point. You can't anesthetise bone AT ALL.
When the pain reaches a certain point the soul will actually leave and that will cause the death. If they are not at that point G-d commands them to keep fighting to stay in this world.
But Newman, I just want to understand: are you trying to figure this our with your own brain? Or are you trying to look into the books and see what G-d really wants?
There is a huge distinction there, and if your whole religion is based on what you find acceptable in your own mind, then you are not worshiping G-d, but yourself. I don't know what that is, but it's not Judiasm.
If G-d actually said to do everything the Koran says, we would all have to do it.
It's nice to explain the commandments according to our understanding, but that is only the second stage. The first stage is to ACCEPT G-d's kingdom over us...then later...maybe you can understand it too.
That's why the Jews were rewarded for saying "We will do" before they said "we will hear".
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I also find it very strange what people say.
Nobody here yet has taken issue with the fact that G-d gives people terminal diseases in the first place. This we just accept.
But G-d telling them to actually suffer longer with the disease!!!??? Now that's just cruel!
So twisted. The same G-d that gave them the disease in the first place is the same one telling them to fight for their life.
Why is one harder to understand than the other? They should be equally troubling.
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If a Jew or noachide is chased onto a prison roof by a prison gang and faces certain sodomy, he must choose death over sexual imorallity (as is the case for idolatry or murder) and jump off the roof.
How can it be OK to commit suicide over sodomy (that one will recover from) and not hideous, screaming, endless agony? :(
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If a Jew or noachide is chased onto a prison roof by a prison gang and faces certain sodomy, he must choose death over sexual imorallity (as is the case for idolatry or murder) and jump off the roof.
How can it be OK to commit suicide over sodomy (that one will recover from) and not hideous, screaming, endless agony? :(
Because that's what the Torah says. What do you want from me? Go ask G-d! First accept it and when you do come back to me and we'll try to understand.
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I find it interesting that you (newman) said the "G-d of Abraham Issac and Jacob" would never command such suffering etc.
You do realize that it was the G-d of Abraham who asked him to sacrifice is only son, right?
G-d's trying to teach you a lesson.
Stop trying to understand him and just do what He says even if it doesn't make sense to you, or else you're just worshiping your own brain...not G-d.
Abraham got up early to do this thing which to our brains would seem completely immoral and was rewarded with being the father or all nations for what he did.
The people on this forum could take a tip from ole' Abe.
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I'm not telling anybody else what to do. I'm just saying what I would do and allowing others the privilage of doing the same.
I'll take my chances when the Satan reads out the charges against me at judgement. If they can make a reasonable case that I should have laid around for two or three more months in hideous suffering then I'll conceed the point.
Besides, don't the rabbis say that G-d isn't responsible for every single bad thing that happens to us? Like when a schvartza mugs and kills a good person it's not G-d killing them but the schvartza using his free will and evil inclinations.
If that's the case, a cancer caused by an irresposible factory owner leaking chemicals into the water supply is not G-d's doing.
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I would be afraid of coercion by family members of a terminally ill or elderly patient.
Me too. This is why I am against legalizing euthanasia.
The best way to die is on a field of battle, IMHO.
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Satan ? There's no Satan in Judaism ?
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This much is clear in halacha. Killing someone in a vegetative state, is still murder.
I think leaving someone in pain and suffering is worse than murder.
G-d makes the rules. Not us.
First you need to accept that.
Later we can talk about why what G-d says here actually makes more sense than what you are saying. But that's for later.
First we need to understand whose world this is.
This is of course true. But how we interpret the rules during certain periods of time is what might be different between peoples
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Satan ? There's no Satan in Judaism ?
Yes there is. He's just not the christians' 'devil'/evil, rebel angel.
Satan is mentioned in the book of Job.
The 'Satan' of Judaism is an angel and servent of G_d who works under G_d's control. He is tasked with tempting us. He is also G-d's prosecutor. When we stand for judgement it is the Satan who reads our crimes and sins from the book much like the prosecuting attorney in a court.
........at least that's what I've been told.
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I'm not telling anybody else what to do. I'm just saying what I would do and allowing others the privilage of doing the same.
I'll take my chances when the Satan reads out the charges against me at judgement. If they can make a reasonable case that I should have laid around for two or three more months in hideous suffering then I'll conceed the point.
Besides, don't the rabbis say that G-d isn't responsible for every single bad thing that happens to us? Like when a schvartza mugs and kills a good person it's not G-d killing them but the schvartza using his free will and evil inclinations.
If that's the case, a cancer caused by an irresposible factory owner leaking chemicals into the water supply is not G-d's doing.
Is this why we do the mitzvos? Only for fear of Divine judgement? You know Rambam says that someone who serves G-d this way is an "Am Haretz" (ignoramous). That is what we tell children so they will be good because they can't appreciate anything more than that.
An adult must develop and learn to do the Mitzvos because they are G-d's will and true and good in their own right...not because we concerned about our own personal welfare.
That's why I'm trying to get you to stop worrying about what Satan will say and stop and make an effort to see what G-d really demands of us. We Jews were always known as people of the book. We don't make this stuff up. When we have a question we look into the book G-d gave us and go get the answer.
Dr. Dan says that interpretations can vary and that's true, but not in this case. Not in a case of a proactive act to directly end the life.
There is no dispute about this. According to all opinions it is murder in the eyes of the Torah.
There is Satan in the torah, but it's not like people think.
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I'm still waiting for the Biblical/Talmudic evidence...
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Let's face it, let's face the facts and GET REAL... Let's get down to the REAL KNITTY GRITTY of this controversial and somewhat heated discussion..... If it wasn't for our trusty leader Chaim none of us would be here enjoying this incredibly wonderful and unique message board... As a matter of fact, many of us members of this board might not even be here and/or alive period if it wasn't for Chaim's selfless and relentless efforts to PROTECT US from our DANGEROUS ENEMIES--- Quite frankly, if it wasn't for Chaim spreading the truth and making it known to our military leaders with his insightful broadcasts expressing the grave danger we all face many of us might not be here now, we might very well all be DEAD! That said, there are indeed some respectable Rabbis who are of the opinion that there are cases in which Chaim's view is justified. One thing I've learned from watching the great Chaim express his opinions on TV over the years is that the great Chaim ALWAYS stands on the side of what is CORRECT and RIGHTEOUS!
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Let's face it, let's face the facts and GET REAL... Let's get down to the REAL KNITTY GRITTY of this controversial and somewhat heated discussion..... If it wasn't for our trusty leader Chaim none of us would be here enjoying this incredibly wonderful and unique message board... As a matter of fact, many of us members of this board might not even be here and/or alive period if it wasn't for Chaim's selfless and relentless efforts to PROTECT US from our DANGEROUS ENEMIES--- Quite frankly, if it wasn't for Chaim spreading the truth and making it known to our military leaders with his insightful broadcasts expressing the grave danger we all face many of us might not be here now, we might very well all be DEAD! That said, there are indeed some respectable Rabbis who are of the opinion that there are cases in which Chaim's view is justified. One thing I've learned from watching the great Chaim express his opinions on TV over the years is that the great Chaim ALWAYS stands on the side of what is CORRECT and RIGHTEOUS!
I will add that he is open-minded for righteous things that might be different from his own opinion.
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I'm still waiting for the Biblical/Talmudic evidence...
Patience is a virtue. I said to give me a day. The day is not nearly over yet.
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This much is clear in halacha. Killing someone in a vegetative state, is still murder.
I think leaving someone in pain and suffering is worse than murder.
G-d makes the rules. Not us.
First you need to accept that.
Later we can talk about why what G-d says here actually makes more sense than what you are saying. But that's for later.
First we need to understand whose world this is.
Out of respect because you are a Rabbi, I will not comment any more on this.
But my point is this, I don't agree with everything that is written, and when I am finally judged by G-d himself thats when I will justify myself him and only him and he already knows my reasons for my actions.
I live peace with G-d and my beliefs.
Skippy, you yourself commented on the fact that God sends no burdens or suffering upon us that we cannot bear. The pain and suffering that a person is going through is a test, for themselves and those around them. To kill them, even whilst in a vegetative state, is to cut short the test and it doesn't work like that.
With every suffering comes a relief, if not in this world maybe in the afterlife.
Thats my opinion..... since i'm not a Jew i'm not telling what is right or wrong, just what i think.
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My father who was bipolar/mentally ill committed suicide, he wanted to die for many years. What is Jewish view in a situation like this where a mentally ill person commits suicide?
They found a number of drugs in his system like Lithium, morphine, and a few other drugs.
He was suffering pretty badly, couldn't get a job, and his brain was pretty much fried after shock treatment. He was a danger to our family and we had to leave, I think at that point, he figured he had nothing else to live for and ended it.
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My father who was bipolar/mentally ill committed suicide, he wanted to die for many years. What is Jewish view in a situation like this where a mentally ill person commits suicide?
They found a number of drugs in his system like Lithium, morphine, and a few other drugs.
I don't know the Jewish view...but i'd just like to comment that a mentally ill person who cannot be identified as fully "sane", is not responsible for his actions, since it isn't his fault because his body and illness overshadows his mind and control.
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I'm not telling anybody else what to do. I'm just saying what I would do and allowing others the privilage of doing the same.
I'll take my chances when the Satan reads out the charges against me at judgement. If they can make a reasonable case that I should have laid around for two or three more months in hideous suffering then I'll conceed the point.
Besides, don't the rabbis say that G-d isn't responsible for every single bad thing that happens to us? Like when a schvartza mugs and kills a good person it's not G-d killing them but the schvartza using his free will and evil inclinations.
If that's the case, a cancer caused by an irresposible factory owner leaking chemicals into the water supply is not G-d's doing.
Is this why we do the mitzvos? Only for fear of Divine judgement? You know Rambam says that someone who serves G-d this way is an "Am Haretz" (ignoramous). That is what we tell children so they will be good because they can't appreciate anything more than that.
An adult must develop and learn to do the Mitzvos because they are G-d's will and true and good in their own right...not because we concerned about our own personal welfare.
That's why I'm trying to get you to stop worrying about what Satan will say and stop and make an effort to see what G-d really demands of us. We Jews were always known as people of the book. We don't make this stuff up. When we have a question we look into the book G-d gave us and go get the answer.
Dr. Dan says that interpretations can vary and that's true, but not in this case. Not in a case of a proactive act to directly end the life.
There is no dispute about this. According to all opinions it is murder in the eyes of the Torah.
There is Satan in the torah, but it's not like people think.
I will repeat that when it comes to life and death, it is better to err on the side of life, although there are situations where removing medicine is permitted. The question is, what is considered medicine and when is it ok to withdraw or accept someone's request to withdraw that medicine?
Anything less than that is suicide/murder.
But once again, if we don't know the answer to some of these situations or questions, it is better to side with life than with death.
THere are certain things in Judaism that we are allowed to die for. Interestingly enough, euthanasia is not one of them. Maybe, Lubab, you can shed some light on that. What did the Rabbi say about this?
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I'm not telling anybody else what to do. I'm just saying what I would do and allowing others the privilage of doing the same.
I'll take my chances when the Satan reads out the charges against me at judgement. If they can make a reasonable case that I should have laid around for two or three more months in hideous suffering then I'll conceed the point.
Besides, don't the rabbis say that G-d isn't responsible for every single bad thing that happens to us? Like when a schvartza mugs and kills a good person it's not G-d killing them but the schvartza using his free will and evil inclinations.
If that's the case, a cancer caused by an irresposible factory owner leaking chemicals into the water supply is not G-d's doing.
Is this why we do the mitzvos? Only for fear of Divine judgement? You know Rambam says that someone who serves G-d this way is an "Am Haretz" (ignoramous). That is what we tell children so they will be good because they can't appreciate anything more than that.
An adult must develop and learn to do the Mitzvos because they are G-d's will and true and good in their own right...not because we concerned about our own personal welfare.
That's why I'm trying to get you to stop worrying about what Satan will say and stop and make an effort to see what G-d really demands of us. We Jews were always known as people of the book. We don't make this stuff up. When we have a question we look into the book G-d gave us and go get the answer.
Dr. Dan says that interpretations can vary and that's true, but not in this case. Not in a case of a proactive act to directly end the life.
There is no dispute about this. According to all opinions it is murder in the eyes of the Torah.
There is Satan in the torah, but it's not like people think.
I will repeat that when it comes to life and death, it is better to err on the side of life, although there are situations where removing medicine is permitted. The question is, what is considered medicine and when is it ok to withdraw or accept someone's request to withdraw that medicine?
Anything less than that is suicide/murder.
But once again, if we don't know the answer to some of these situations or questions, it is better to side with life than with death.
THere are certain things in Judaism that we are allowed to die for. Interestingly enough, euthanasia is not one of them. Maybe, Lubab, you can shed some light on that. What did the Rabbi say about this?
We are obligated to give up our lives for three things. If one is forcing us to murder someone else, we should die first. If one is forcing us to worhip idols we should die first. And if one forces us to do one of the cardinal sins of sexual immorality we should die first rather than do that too.
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I'm not telling anybody else what to do. I'm just saying what I would do and allowing others the privilage of doing the same.
I'll take my chances when the Satan reads out the charges against me at judgement. If they can make a reasonable case that I should have laid around for two or three more months in hideous suffering then I'll conceed the point.
Besides, don't the rabbis say that G-d isn't responsible for every single bad thing that happens to us? Like when a schvartza mugs and kills a good person it's not G-d killing them but the schvartza using his free will and evil inclinations.
If that's the case, a cancer caused by an irresposible factory owner leaking chemicals into the water supply is not G-d's doing.
Is this why we do the mitzvos? Only for fear of Divine judgement? You know Rambam says that someone who serves G-d this way is an "Am Haretz" (ignoramous). That is what we tell children so they will be good because they can't appreciate anything more than that.
An adult must develop and learn to do the Mitzvos because they are G-d's will and true and good in their own right...not because we concerned about our own personal welfare.
That's why I'm trying to get you to stop worrying about what Satan will say and stop and make an effort to see what G-d really demands of us. We Jews were always known as people of the book. We don't make this stuff up. When we have a question we look into the book G-d gave us and go get the answer.
Dr. Dan says that interpretations can vary and that's true, but not in this case. Not in a case of a proactive act to directly end the life.
There is no dispute about this. According to all opinions it is murder in the eyes of the Torah.
There is Satan in the torah, but it's not like people think.
I will repeat that when it comes to life and death, it is better to err on the side of life, although there are situations where removing medicine is permitted. The question is, what is considered medicine and when is it ok to withdraw or accept someone's request to withdraw that medicine?
Anything less than that is suicide/murder.
But once again, if we don't know the answer to some of these situations or questions, it is better to side with life than with death.
THere are certain things in Judaism that we are allowed to die for. Interestingly enough, euthanasia is not one of them. Maybe, Lubab, you can shed some light on that. What did the Rabbi say about this?
We are obligated to give up our lives for three things. If one is forcing us to murder someone else, we should die first. If one is forcing us to worhip idols we should die first. And if one forces us to do one of the cardinal sins of sexual immorality we should die first rather than do that too.
The objective should be not to die for your country but to make the enemy die for his.
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I'm not telling anybody else what to do. I'm just saying what I would do and allowing others the privilage of doing the same.
I'll take my chances when the Satan reads out the charges against me at judgement. If they can make a reasonable case that I should have laid around for two or three more months in hideous suffering then I'll conceed the point.
Besides, don't the rabbis say that G-d isn't responsible for every single bad thing that happens to us? Like when a schvartza mugs and kills a good person it's not G-d killing them but the schvartza using his free will and evil inclinations.
If that's the case, a cancer caused by an irresposible factory owner leaking chemicals into the water supply is not G-d's doing.
Is this why we do the mitzvos? Only for fear of Divine judgement? You know Rambam says that someone who serves G-d this way is an "Am Haretz" (ignoramous). That is what we tell children so they will be good because they can't appreciate anything more than that.
An adult must develop and learn to do the Mitzvos because they are G-d's will and true and good in their own right...not because we concerned about our own personal welfare.
That's why I'm trying to get you to stop worrying about what Satan will say and stop and make an effort to see what G-d really demands of us. We Jews were always known as people of the book. We don't make this stuff up. When we have a question we look into the book G-d gave us and go get the answer.
Dr. Dan says that interpretations can vary and that's true, but not in this case. Not in a case of a proactive act to directly end the life.
There is no dispute about this. According to all opinions it is murder in the eyes of the Torah.
There is Satan in the torah, but it's not like people think.
I will repeat that when it comes to life and death, it is better to err on the side of life, although there are situations where removing medicine is permitted. The question is, what is considered medicine and when is it ok to withdraw or accept someone's request to withdraw that medicine?
Anything less than that is suicide/murder.
But once again, if we don't know the answer to some of these situations or questions, it is better to side with life than with death.
THere are certain things in Judaism that we are allowed to die for. Interestingly enough, euthanasia is not one of them. Maybe, Lubab, you can shed some light on that. What did the Rabbi say about this?
We are obligated to give up our lives for three things. If one is forcing us to murder someone else, we should die first. If one is forcing us to worhip idols we should die first. And if one forces us to do one of the cardinal sins of sexual immorality we should die first rather than do that too.
The objective should be not to die for your country but to make the enemy die for his.
Thanks, General Patton... ;)
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I'm not telling anybody else what to do. I'm just saying what I would do and allowing others the privilage of doing the same.
I'll take my chances when the Satan reads out the charges against me at judgement. If they can make a reasonable case that I should have laid around for two or three more months in hideous suffering then I'll conceed the point.
Besides, don't the rabbis say that G-d isn't responsible for every single bad thing that happens to us? Like when a schvartza mugs and kills a good person it's not G-d killing them but the schvartza using his free will and evil inclinations.
If that's the case, a cancer caused by an irresposible factory owner leaking chemicals into the water supply is not G-d's doing.
Is this why we do the mitzvos? Only for fear of Divine judgement? You know Rambam says that someone who serves G-d this way is an "Am Haretz" (ignoramous). That is what we tell children so they will be good because they can't appreciate anything more than that.
An adult must develop and learn to do the Mitzvos because they are G-d's will and true and good in their own right...not because we concerned about our own personal welfare.
That's why I'm trying to get you to stop worrying about what Satan will say and stop and make an effort to see what G-d really demands of us. We Jews were always known as people of the book. We don't make this stuff up. When we have a question we look into the book G-d gave us and go get the answer.
Dr. Dan says that interpretations can vary and that's true, but not in this case. Not in a case of a proactive act to directly end the life.
There is no dispute about this. According to all opinions it is murder in the eyes of the Torah.
There is Satan in the torah, but it's not like people think.
I will repeat that when it comes to life and death, it is better to err on the side of life, although there are situations where removing medicine is permitted. The question is, what is considered medicine and when is it ok to withdraw or accept someone's request to withdraw that medicine?
Anything less than that is suicide/murder.
But once again, if we don't know the answer to some of these situations or questions, it is better to side with life than with death.
THere are certain things in Judaism that we are allowed to die for. Interestingly enough, euthanasia is not one of them. Maybe, Lubab, you can shed some light on that. What did the Rabbi say about this?
We are obligated to give up our lives for three things. If one is forcing us to murder someone else, we should die first. If one is forcing us to worhip idols we should die first. And if one forces us to do one of the cardinal sins of sexual immorality we should die first rather than do that too.
What are the rabbis' explanations in regards to euthanasia. How is it that these three things take presidence over someone's terminal physical suffering?
-
I'm not telling anybody else what to do. I'm just saying what I would do and allowing others the privilage of doing the same.
I'll take my chances when the Satan reads out the charges against me at judgement. If they can make a reasonable case that I should have laid around for two or three more months in hideous suffering then I'll conceed the point.
Besides, don't the rabbis say that G-d isn't responsible for every single bad thing that happens to us? Like when a schvartza mugs and kills a good person it's not G-d killing them but the schvartza using his free will and evil inclinations.
If that's the case, a cancer caused by an irresposible factory owner leaking chemicals into the water supply is not G-d's doing.
Is this why we do the mitzvos? Only for fear of Divine judgement? You know Rambam says that someone who serves G-d this way is an "Am Haretz" (ignoramous). That is what we tell children so they will be good because they can't appreciate anything more than that.
An adult must develop and learn to do the Mitzvos because they are G-d's will and true and good in their own right...not because we concerned about our own personal welfare.
That's why I'm trying to get you to stop worrying about what Satan will say and stop and make an effort to see what G-d really demands of us. We Jews were always known as people of the book. We don't make this stuff up. When we have a question we look into the book G-d gave us and go get the answer.
Dr. Dan says that interpretations can vary and that's true, but not in this case. Not in a case of a proactive act to directly end the life.
There is no dispute about this. According to all opinions it is murder in the eyes of the Torah.
There is Satan in the torah, but it's not like people think.
I will repeat that when it comes to life and death, it is better to err on the side of life, although there are situations where removing medicine is permitted. The question is, what is considered medicine and when is it ok to withdraw or accept someone's request to withdraw that medicine?
Anything less than that is suicide/murder.
But once again, if we don't know the answer to some of these situations or questions, it is better to side with life than with death.
THere are certain things in Judaism that we are allowed to die for. Interestingly enough, euthanasia is not one of them. Maybe, Lubab, you can shed some light on that. What did the Rabbi say about this?
We are obligated to give up our lives for three things. If one is forcing us to murder someone else, we should die first. If one is forcing us to worhip idols we should die first. And if one forces us to do one of the cardinal sins of sexual immorality we should die first rather than do that too.
What are the rabbis' explanations in regards to euthanasia. How is it that these three things take presidence over someone's terminal physical suffering?
These things are worse than physical suffering.
This shouldn't come as a shock to you. Emotional and spiritual pain can often be much greater than even the worst physical pain.
But it's more than that. Doing one of these three things causes great destruction the fabric of the world, on things outside of ourselves, the kind of damage we have no right to cause. For instance we have no right to choose that our life is more important than someone else's that's why we get killed rather than murder someone.
-
I'm not telling anybody else what to do. I'm just saying what I would do and allowing others the privilage of doing the same.
I'll take my chances when the Satan reads out the charges against me at judgement. If they can make a reasonable case that I should have laid around for two or three more months in hideous suffering then I'll conceed the point.
Besides, don't the rabbis say that G-d isn't responsible for every single bad thing that happens to us? Like when a schvartza mugs and kills a good person it's not G-d killing them but the schvartza using his free will and evil inclinations.
If that's the case, a cancer caused by an irresposible factory owner leaking chemicals into the water supply is not G-d's doing.
Is this why we do the mitzvos? Only for fear of Divine judgement? You know Rambam says that someone who serves G-d this way is an "Am Haretz" (ignoramous). That is what we tell children so they will be good because they can't appreciate anything more than that.
An adult must develop and learn to do the Mitzvos because they are G-d's will and true and good in their own right...not because we concerned about our own personal welfare.
That's why I'm trying to get you to stop worrying about what Satan will say and stop and make an effort to see what G-d really demands of us. We Jews were always known as people of the book. We don't make this stuff up. When we have a question we look into the book G-d gave us and go get the answer.
Dr. Dan says that interpretations can vary and that's true, but not in this case. Not in a case of a proactive act to directly end the life.
There is no dispute about this. According to all opinions it is murder in the eyes of the Torah.
There is Satan in the torah, but it's not like people think.
I will repeat that when it comes to life and death, it is better to err on the side of life, although there are situations where removing medicine is permitted. The question is, what is considered medicine and when is it ok to withdraw or accept someone's request to withdraw that medicine?
Anything less than that is suicide/murder.
But once again, if we don't know the answer to some of these situations or questions, it is better to side with life than with death.
THere are certain things in Judaism that we are allowed to die for. Interestingly enough, euthanasia is not one of them. Maybe, Lubab, you can shed some light on that. What did the Rabbi say about this?
We are obligated to give up our lives for three things. If one is forcing us to murder someone else, we should die first. If one is forcing us to worhip idols we should die first. And if one forces us to do one of the cardinal sins of sexual immorality we should die first rather than do that too.
What are the rabbis' explanations in regards to euthanasia. How is it that these three things take presidence over someone's terminal physical suffering?
These things are worse than physical suffering.
This shouldn't come as a shock to you. Emotional and spiritual pain can often be much greater than even the worst physical pain.
But it's more than that. Doing one of these three things causes great destruction the fabric of the world, on things outside of ourselves, the kind of damage we have no right to cause. For instance we have no right to choose that our life is more important than someone else's that's why we get killed rather than murder someone.
What about self defense? "If someone comes to kill you, kill them first"
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I'm not telling anybody else what to do. I'm just saying what I would do and allowing others the privilage of doing the same.
I'll take my chances when the Satan reads out the charges against me at judgement. If they can make a reasonable case that I should have laid around for two or three more months in hideous suffering then I'll conceed the point.
Besides, don't the rabbis say that G-d isn't responsible for every single bad thing that happens to us? Like when a schvartza mugs and kills a good person it's not G-d killing them but the schvartza using his free will and evil inclinations.
If that's the case, a cancer caused by an irresposible factory owner leaking chemicals into the water supply is not G-d's doing.
Is this why we do the mitzvos? Only for fear of Divine judgement? You know Rambam says that someone who serves G-d this way is an "Am Haretz" (ignoramous). That is what we tell children so they will be good because they can't appreciate anything more than that.
An adult must develop and learn to do the Mitzvos because they are G-d's will and true and good in their own right...not because we concerned about our own personal welfare.
That's why I'm trying to get you to stop worrying about what Satan will say and stop and make an effort to see what G-d really demands of us. We Jews were always known as people of the book. We don't make this stuff up. When we have a question we look into the book G-d gave us and go get the answer.
Dr. Dan says that interpretations can vary and that's true, but not in this case. Not in a case of a proactive act to directly end the life.
There is no dispute about this. According to all opinions it is murder in the eyes of the Torah.
There is Satan in the torah, but it's not like people think.
I will repeat that when it comes to life and death, it is better to err on the side of life, although there are situations where removing medicine is permitted. The question is, what is considered medicine and when is it ok to withdraw or accept someone's request to withdraw that medicine?
Anything less than that is suicide/murder.
But once again, if we don't know the answer to some of these situations or questions, it is better to side with life than with death.
THere are certain things in Judaism that we are allowed to die for. Interestingly enough, euthanasia is not one of them. Maybe, Lubab, you can shed some light on that. What did the Rabbi say about this?
We are obligated to give up our lives for three things. If one is forcing us to murder someone else, we should die first. If one is forcing us to worhip idols we should die first. And if one forces us to do one of the cardinal sins of sexual immorality we should die first rather than do that too.
What are the rabbis' explanations in regards to euthanasia. How is it that these three things take presidence over someone's terminal physical suffering?
These things are worse than physical suffering.
This shouldn't come as a shock to you. Emotional and spiritual pain can often be much greater than even the worst physical pain.
But it's more than that. Doing one of these three things causes great destruction the fabric of the world, on things outside of ourselves, the kind of damage we have no right to cause. For instance we have no right to choose that our life is more important than someone else's that's why we get killed rather than murder someone.
What about self defense? "If someone comes to kill you, kill them first"
Then that isn't murder, is it?
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For C.F.
The Talmudic and scriptural support for what I am saying:
Probably the earliest story regardomg euthanasia is found in the Talmud (Avoda Zara 18). One of the ten martyrs, Rabbi Hanina ben Teradyon, was burnt at the stake holding a Torah scroll. His students stood around and said to him, “Rebbe, open your mouth. Let the flames and smoke enter your body and choke you so that you will die quicker and not suffer this terrible torture.”
He said, “No. G-d gave me my soul. Only He should retrieve it from me.”
The Talmud states as follows: "One who is in a dying condition (goses) is regarded as a living person in all respects (didn't find source yet)." This rule is reiterated by the codifiers of Jewish law including, Maimonides and Karo. The Talmud continues:
"One may not bind his jaws, nor stop up his openings, nor place a metallic vessel or any cooling object on his navel until such time that he dies, as it is written: Before the silver cord is snapped asunder (Ecclesiastes 12:6). One may not move him, nor may one place him on sand or on salt until he dies. One may not close the eyes of the dying person. He who touches them or moves them is shedding blood because Rabbi Meir used to say: This can be compared to a flickering flame. As soon as a person touches it, it becomes extinguished. So too, whosoever closes the eyes of the dying is considered to have taken his soul (didn't find source yet...)."
Other laws pertaining to a goses, or dying person, such as the preparation of a coffin, inheritance, marriage, and so forth, are then cited.
The Talmud also mentions: "He who closes the eyes of a dying person while the soul is departing is a murderer [lit. he sheds blood]. This may be compared to a lamp that is going out. If a man places his finger upon it, it is immediately extinguished (Shabbat 151b)." Rashi explains that this small effort of closing the eyes may slightly hasten death.
“Against your will you were born, against your will you die, and against your will you are destined to give an account before the supreme King of kings, the Holy One, blessed be He” (Ethics of our Fathers 4:22).
Also see this article: http://books.google.com/books?id=clIrSyxlZ-MC&pg=PA114&lpg=PA114&dq=euthanasia+talmud&source=web&ots=fOHPvcJb2X&sig=yejTPH5OMw8SBKFkN_uiHR-yg_w
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Would suicide bombing against the Amalek be justified in Judaism?
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Would suicide bombing against the Amalek be justified in Judaism?
No. Do it without getting yourself killed if possible.
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Would suicide bombing against the Amalek be justified in Judaism?
No. Do it without getting yourself killed if possible.
What about if this is not possible or feasible? There were kamikaze missions during WWII. Would such missions be outlawed by Judaism?
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Would suicide bombing against the Amalek be justified in Judaism?
There is no physical Amalek today anyways. Only the inner Amalek...
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Wow, to say that this has ignited into a severely heated debate would be an understatement at this point! It appears that opinions vary and we're certainly not all on the same page regarding the incredibly controversial issue. That said, I still maintain my original position that if it wasn't for our trusty leader Chaim that we'd all probably be DEAD-- If it wasn't for Chaim's selfless and relentless efforts to PROTECT US from our DANGEROUS ENEMIES and his steadfast dedication to spreading the truth and making it known to our military leaders that our enemies are indeed putting us in grave danger, it's not much of a stretch to assume we'd all have been killed by now... When our great Chaim expresses his sacred opinions on TV he ALWAYS stands on the side of what is CORRECT and RIGHTEOUS!
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Would suicide bombing against the Amalek be justified in Judaism?
No. Do it without getting yourself killed if possible.
What about if this is not possible or feasible? There were kamikaze missions during WWII. Would such missions be outlawed by Judaism?
Tough question if that's the only way to save someone else's life. I would recommend you search for articles by Rabbi J. Bleich on these topics because he's an expert in this stuff.
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Wow, to say that this has ignited into a severely heated debate would be an understatement at this point! It appears that opinions vary and we're certainly not all on the same page regarding the incredibly controversial issue. That said, I still maintain my original position that if it wasn't for our trusty leader Chaim that we'd all probably be DEAD-- If it wasn't for Chaim's selfless and relentless efforts to PROTECT US from our DANGEROUS ENEMIES and his steadfast dedication to spreading the truth and making it known to our military leaders that our enemies are indeed putting us in grave danger, it's not much of a stretch to assume we'd all have been killed by now... When our great Chaim expresses his sacred opinions on TV he ALWAYS stands on the side of what is CORRECT and RIGHTEOUS!
Listen to the last question on this week's AskJTF. Me and Chaim agree on this. There's no debate here as far as the Torah position on the "proactive act" scenario.
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will do...
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I'm not telling anybody else what to do. I'm just saying what I would do and allowing others the privilage of doing the same.
I'll take my chances when the Satan reads out the charges against me at judgement. If they can make a reasonable case that I should have laid around for two or three more months in hideous suffering then I'll conceed the point.
Besides, don't the rabbis say that G-d isn't responsible for every single bad thing that happens to us? Like when a schvartza mugs and kills a good person it's not G-d killing them but the schvartza using his free will and evil inclinations.
If that's the case, a cancer caused by an irresposible factory owner leaking chemicals into the water supply is not G-d's doing.
Is this why we do the mitzvos? Only for fear of Divine judgement? You know Rambam says that someone who serves G-d this way is an "Am Haretz" (ignoramous). That is what we tell children so they will be good because they can't appreciate anything more than that.
An adult must develop and learn to do the Mitzvos because they are G-d's will and true and good in their own right...not because we concerned about our own personal welfare.
That's why I'm trying to get you to stop worrying about what Satan will say and stop and make an effort to see what G-d really demands of us. We Jews were always known as people of the book. We don't make this stuff up. When we have a question we look into the book G-d gave us and go get the answer.
Dr. Dan says that interpretations can vary and that's true, but not in this case. Not in a case of a proactive act to directly end the life.
There is no dispute about this. According to all opinions it is murder in the eyes of the Torah.
There is Satan in the torah, but it's not like people think.
I will repeat that when it comes to life and death, it is better to err on the side of life, although there are situations where removing medicine is permitted. The question is, what is considered medicine and when is it ok to withdraw or accept someone's request to withdraw that medicine?
Anything less than that is suicide/murder.
But once again, if we don't know the answer to some of these situations or questions, it is better to side with life than with death.
THere are certain things in Judaism that we are allowed to die for. Interestingly enough, euthanasia is not one of them. Maybe, Lubab, you can shed some light on that. What did the Rabbi say about this?
We are obligated to give up our lives for three things. If one is forcing us to murder someone else, we should die first. If one is forcing us to worhip idols we should die first. And if one forces us to do one of the cardinal sins of sexual immorality we should die first rather than do that too.
What are the rabbis' explanations in regards to euthanasia. How is it that these three things take presidence over someone's terminal physical suffering?
These things are worse than physical suffering.
This shouldn't come as a shock to you. Emotional and spiritual pain can often be much greater than even the worst physical pain.
But it's more than that. Doing one of these three things causes great destruction the fabric of the world, on things outside of ourselves, the kind of damage we have no right to cause. For instance we have no right to choose that our life is more important than someone else's that's why we get killed rather than murder someone.
When are we permitted to kill?
-
For C.F.
The Talmudic and scriptural support for what I am saying:
Probably the earliest story regardomg euthanasia is found in the Talmud (Avoda Zara 18). One of the ten martyrs, Rabbi Hanina ben Teradyon, was burnt at the stake holding a Torah scroll. His students stood around and said to him, “Rebbe, open your mouth. Let the flames and smoke enter your body and choke you so that you will die quicker and not suffer this terrible torture.”
He said, “No. G-d gave me my soul. Only He should retrieve it from me.”
The Talmud states as follows: "One who is in a dying condition (goses) is regarded as a living person in all respects (didn't find source yet)." This rule is reiterated by the codifiers of Jewish law including, Maimonides and Karo. The Talmud continues:
"One may not bind his jaws, nor stop up his openings, nor place a metallic vessel or any cooling object on his navel until such time that he dies, as it is written: Before the silver cord is snapped asunder (Ecclesiastes 12:6). One may not move him, nor may one place him on sand or on salt until he dies. One may not close the eyes of the dying person. He who touches them or moves them is shedding blood because Rabbi Meir used to say: This can be compared to a flickering flame. As soon as a person touches it, it becomes extinguished. So too, whosoever closes the eyes of the dying is considered to have taken his soul (didn't find source yet...)."
Other laws pertaining to a goses, or dying person, such as the preparation of a coffin, inheritance, marriage, and so forth, are then cited.
The Talmud also mentions: "He who closes the eyes of a dying person while the soul is departing is a murderer [lit. he sheds blood]. This may be compared to a lamp that is going out. If a man places his finger upon it, it is immediately extinguished (Shabbat 151b)." Rashi explains that this small effort of closing the eyes may slightly hasten death.
“Against your will you were born, against your will you die, and against your will you are destined to give an account before the supreme King of kings, the Holy One, blessed be He” (Ethics of our Fathers 4:22).
Also see this article: http://books.google.com/books?id=clIrSyxlZ-MC&pg=PA114&lpg=PA114&dq=euthanasia+talmud&source=web&ots=fOHPvcJb2X&sig=yejTPH5OMw8SBKFkN_uiHR-yg_w
Amazing, Lubab, I want to learn Torah and Talmud with you in person.
-
For C.F.
The Talmudic and scriptural support for what I am saying:
Probably the earliest story regardomg euthanasia is found in the Talmud (Avoda Zara 18). One of the ten martyrs, Rabbi Hanina ben Teradyon, was burnt at the stake holding a Torah scroll. His students stood around and said to him, “Rebbe, open your mouth. Let the flames and smoke enter your body and choke you so that you will die quicker and not suffer this terrible torture.”
He said, “No. G-d gave me my soul. Only He should retrieve it from me.”
The Talmud states as follows: "One who is in a dying condition (goses) is regarded as a living person in all respects (didn't find source yet)." This rule is reiterated by the codifiers of Jewish law including, Maimonides and Karo. The Talmud continues:
"One may not bind his jaws, nor stop up his openings, nor place a metallic vessel or any cooling object on his navel until such time that he dies, as it is written: Before the silver cord is snapped asunder (Ecclesiastes 12:6). One may not move him, nor may one place him on sand or on salt until he dies. One may not close the eyes of the dying person. He who touches them or moves them is shedding blood because Rabbi Meir used to say: This can be compared to a flickering flame. As soon as a person touches it, it becomes extinguished. So too, whosoever closes the eyes of the dying is considered to have taken his soul (didn't find source yet...)."
Other laws pertaining to a goses, or dying person, such as the preparation of a coffin, inheritance, marriage, and so forth, are then cited.
The Talmud also mentions: "He who closes the eyes of a dying person while the soul is departing is a murderer [lit. he sheds blood]. This may be compared to a lamp that is going out. If a man places his finger upon it, it is immediately extinguished (Shabbat 151b)." Rashi explains that this small effort of closing the eyes may slightly hasten death.
“Against your will you were born, against your will you die, and against your will you are destined to give an account before the supreme King of kings, the Holy One, blessed be He” (Ethics of our Fathers 4:22).
Also see this article: http://books.google.com/books?id=clIrSyxlZ-MC&pg=PA114&lpg=PA114&dq=euthanasia+talmud&source=web&ots=fOHPvcJb2X&sig=yejTPH5OMw8SBKFkN_uiHR-yg_w
Amazing, Lubab, I want to learn Torah and Talmud with you in person.
That sounds like fun. Dr. Dan. That sounds like fun...
P.S. We can kill whoever G-d says we can kill. Read the Bible and you'll see many examples.
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You're amazing Lubab, modern western people indeed worship their ego and are not wiling to abide G-d laws, thats why I respect ortodox rabbis over liberal christian priests. If the jewish Satan/Acuser is not fallen angel who was snake who tempted Adam and Eve into sin in Garden of Eden? He doesn't sound as agent of G-d.
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You're amazing Lubab, modern western people indeed worship their ego and are not wiling to abide G-d laws, thats why I respect ortodox rabbis over liberal christian priests. If the jewish Satan/Acuser is not fallen angel who was snake who tempted Adam and Eve into sin in Garden of Eden? He doesn't sound as agent of G-d.
Thanks. I think what you are trying to say is that if Satan tempted man to Sin then he doesn't sound like an agent of G-d right?
Is that your question. As you wrote it, it doesn't make sense to me.
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IF someone was hit by a bus or car and their injuries are no way can be repaired and they are going to be in a stage where they can't really care for themselves at all in anyways possible way. Then why keep them to suffer?
Why would G-d keep them still alive suffering? If they should have died then why didn't it happen in the car crash?
Lacking an answer to that question, does not mean we should draw conclusions as to G-d wanting them to stay alive, or not wanting them to stay alive.
Here are 3 possible reasons why G-d may want that to happen.
It could be that them staying alive will have some affect on some relative, they get the chance to say their last goodbyes.
Or maybe because G-d knew that this person would be happier being put to death quietly in a hospital, than suddenly in a car crash.
Or maybe it is because another person in the car crash would have been too traumatised were he/she to find that person dead there.
Often when G-d does something, one may ask if it is a reward, a punishment, a test. Your example is really interesting, because it does not fit in there. But one can ask "how is it for the best".. and I can see those possibilities.
But guessing at the mind/will of G-d (beyond what he as told us) and drawing conclusions is a dangerous business.
(when I say "what he has told us". I speak as a believing jew, what he has told us in the torah)