JTF.ORG Forum
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: newman on November 26, 2007, 09:40:35 PM
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Sarah, it's time to be honest with yourself and us.
Nothing's easy. Life's tough enough, but for some it's tougher. I'm not talking money, bills, school or homework. I mean the other stuff some have to cope with.
The nice anglo-christian who grows to like the Jews discovers some things about his history, nation and community he has trouble accepting. Richard the Lion Heart, that great warrior king he admired as a boy turns out to be a scumbag who locked Jews in their synagogues and burnt them alive! The church where he was baptised and taken to by his parents each sunday used to put hot pokers in Jews' eyes. The man/god jesus he worshiped, that embodyment of absolute love and forgiveness, that living guarantee of everlasting life................false. Well, at least he's still got the father.....just not the son. As for the history, it was centuries ago. It's distant enough not to weigh too heavily. A bitter pill? Yes, but he copes.
The nice, post war German boy fares worse. He comes to the shocking realisation that his grandparents' generation (and sometimes his grandparents themselves) were/are monsters.He's painfully reminded every so often in old B&W newsreels. He's different to other boys in other countries. Patriotism and nationalism are taboo here. His countrymen are less nationalistic at the soccer than others. His countrymen are not allowed to be. The past is as unpleasant a subject with his elders as discussing the day's bowel motions. He learns that HIS country and HIS people are responsible for the most unspeakable crime in the history of man. He's rightly devastated. Unlike his anglo-saxon contemporary the crimes of his countrymen are not so distant. There are living members of his own family who took part! He can't dismiss it as ancient history. What does he do? He does what any normal human would. He attempts to deny....or rationalise..........or understate. Sometimes he does all three."Hitler only had 30% support". "The public didn't know about the camps"."Genocide was never the original intention" ...............and so on. The problem is he has trouble convincing himself. He needs some reinforcement. So he tries to convince himself by convincing others. He runs the same justifications, denials and arguments by others in the hope that by convincing them, he'll convince himself. It doesn't work either. His peace will only come with painful honesty and acceptance of the awful truth. The bigger, more bitter pill must be swallowed. Some succeed. Most don't.
I know how it must be for you, Sarah. You're a lovely, kind, gentle girl without a mallicious or hateful bone in your body. You too have come to a shocking realisation about the culture and faith of your birth. And you've confronted it bravely. I know why you've recently tried returning to islam. You're trying to protect your sanity. It's the Morocco move, isn't it? To live there as a non-muslim, living a lie and a charade would be an unbearable torture. Confronting your family about it even worse (to you). I believe you've done the only thing that you (subconsciously) think you can do. You've tried to find something worthy in it. Something to convince you that the acts of violence, destruction, misogyny and hate that you see 24/7 in every paper and on every TV are somehow not a part of it. That you can find a legitimate and worthy faith and way of life without having to leave islam and split with your family and home. Conflict avoidance. It's understandable, Sarah. Anyone in your situation would do the same. The truth is , Sarah..............it's simply denial.
I know you don't really believe the excuses, explainations and taqqiya of your teachers and Imams anymore than I do. It would be nice if it was so. To write off the terror, rape, flogging of rape victims and sharia mutilations as some sort of abberation carried out by a misguided minority would be so much easier. If only that was the case how much easier would your life be? Imagine the peace of mind if it was so. I know you've been desperately trying to convince yourself it is so by using the JTF forum as a sounding board. It's OK. It's a natural thing to try and do. But as much as you want to believe what they tell you, the facts and your own common sense won't allow it. The floggings, executions, mutilations and abuse of women are ordered by islamic courts, not street gangs. Those courts are presided over by senior islamic schollars, not peasants. The terror, murders and rapes are given ascent by Imams, not illiterate tribesmen. When someone asks the question."where is the non-radical majority in islam opposing the radical minority?" there is still no answer. You know this inconvenient truth. That's the source of your conflict. It's no wonder you want to walk into a deep forest and just disappear. I would too if I were in your shoes.
Now Sarah............................Please tell me honestly if I'm right or wrong. If I'm wrong ....where and how. I don't mean in religion. I mean about you. I can give you a link to sites containing the truth about islam but I don't think that's neccessary. You already know deep down despite the pain and conflict this knowledge causes you. Just tell me.
Your friend
Andrew.
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My guess is that this topic doesn't need to be pinned to remain on page 1 for a few weeks. ;)
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I e-mailed this a few days ago. I've received no answer from her. We all need an answer. I love this girl like a daughter but I need to know if (G-d forbid) she's really gone over to the 'dark side'.
I'm sick with worry.
Please let's all wait for an answer before we attack this girl. I fear she may simply be conflicted for the reasons outlined in the letter but her recent posts worry me.
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I e-mailed this a few days ago. I've received no answer from her. We all need an answer. I love this girl like a daughter but I need to know if (G-d forbid) she's really gone over to the 'dark side'.
I'm sick with worry.
Please let's all wait for an answer before we attack this girl. I fear she may simply be conflicted for the reasons outlined in the letter but her recent posts worry me.
What do you mean by 'dark side'? That she's a radical muslim jihadist? Nah. She's probably gone full circle and is now just as naive as she was when she joined. Remember, she was only 8 years old when 9/11 happened. You can't expect this little girl, who happens to be quite bright, to fully grasp what's going on in this world.
This gets worse when we have people needlessly attacking her, and they know who they are. They are partially responsible for this.
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I e-mailed this a few days ago. I've received no answer from her. We all need an answer. I love this girl like a daughter but I need to know if (G-d forbid) she's really gone over to the 'dark side'.
I'm sick with worry.
Please let's all wait for an answer before we attack this girl. I fear she may simply be conflicted for the reasons outlined in the letter but her recent posts worry me.
I hope you're right.
I thought like you did Newman, but I'm tending to believe that there is something a bit more sinister going on than conflict avoidance. Why would she continue to come on and get slammed. It's almost as if she's heard nothing we've said the past year and she thinks we will fall for this propoganda. The real Sarah was not that dumb.
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Wow ok had no idea about the email she has been posting like normal. Strange.
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newman...beautifully written...
I also went through a point going round and round, but I was a little older and in college...I was pro peace then I hated arabs..and then pro peace and then saw jtf for the first time and started hating arabs and even some blacks...then went back to pro peace until the Lebanon war and came across Kahane's prediction on CSPAN (a nice hour long video). Then I found Chaim again and I'm still here making up my own mind...Agreeing and disagreeing with what makes most sense to me..and with respect to Chaim's point of views when different from mine.
But my shoes are much easier to wear than Sarah's..there is a lot more at stake for her and, Newman, you versed that beautifully. And we can all agree she is but only 15 years old so whatever she chooses today, if it is to go back to her origin, that she will never forget us and when she is a little older and wiser, return again when she really knows...
Otherwise, there is no need to wander Sinai for 40 years, Sarah.
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I thought I saw posts by her a short time ago?
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I think that Sarah is great and I know that she really doesn't beleive in Islam because she doesn't really answer back when I quote what the Hadith actually says.
Deep down, she knows that Islam is Satanic. She is probably afraid for her life. She lives in an Islamic family, community and now country.
Well, I hope that when she gets older she is actually able to leave the Satanic religion of Islam.
She is a sweet nice girl and i wish her well.
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Wow ok had no idea about the email she has been posting like normal. Strange.
But the abnormal posting he is talking about is her recent shift back to Nazi Islam.
I know my point was she was acting like this had never occured.
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What a thoughtful and intelligent letter you wrote, newman!
The fact that you are willing to get this involved (emotionally as well) for the sake of saving one good person from an evil religion is truly a testament to your good nature and righteousness.
I hope Sarah can one day move past the stage of "conflict avoidance" and recognize reality for what it is, but she has many cards stacked against her that block her way towards accepting the truth and living within that truth.
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Newman, you're kind-hearted for caring so much. Let's see if she has the decency of at least responding.
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That was a very nice letter. She is very lucky to have a friend like you, most people who leave that cult have to do it alone, and in some cases risk their lives and leave their entire family and everything they know behind. I hope that she takes advantage of your wisdom and friendship and though it will likely be the hardest thing that she does in her life, leaves islam, it is no place for a young lady.
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This was a beautiful letter, Newman--much nicer than anything I'd have written. I can barely refrain from attacking her some days. I wish I could believe that there is one sincere, misguided Muslim out there, but that's like saying there were sincere, misguided Nazis during WWII.
Anyway, let's see what she says--if anything.
Chaimfan
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This was a beautiful letter, Newman--much nicer than anything I'd have written. I can barely refrain from attacking her some days. I wish I could believe that there is one sincere, misguided Muslim out there, but that's like saying there were sincere, misguided Nazis during WWII.
Anyway, let's see what she says--if anything.
Chaimfan
If she says anything, it'll be taquiya (sp.).
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If she says anything, it'll be taquiya (sp.).
Glad to see you share my skepticism. I believe it's taqqiyah, btw.
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I don't think Sarah is evil but I'd like an admin or mod to explain why Islam defending is tolerated for learning to debate purposes but Nazism isn't. Muhammad was as evil as Hitler. I think she should be banned.
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I don't think Sarah is evil but I'd like an admin or mod to explain why Islam defending is tolerated for learning to debate purposes but Nazism isn't. Muhammad was as evil as Hitler. I think she should be banned.
Because she's a good kid who DOESN'T hate Jews or wish any harm to Israel. Plus she renounced iSSlam once. We owe her a bit of lattitude given her tender years and family circumstances.
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That was a very powerful letter Newman. I think that the only way Sarah will accept the truth if we let her go out and try to find other "moderate muslims" and a "moderate muslim" mosque. When she finally finds after much searching that they don't exist and there are really no "moderate muslims" but moderate muslims are just secular muslims who don't practice the koran then she'll finally see the truth. Until then, she'll continue to believe that not all muslims want to kill Jews and Christians and not all muslims are evil. Although I still don't get why the koran is not clear enough for her about this.
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I don't think Sarah is evil but I'd like an admin or mod to explain why Islam defending is tolerated for learning to debate purposes but Nazism isn't. Muhammad was as evil as Hitler. I think she should be banned.
Because she's a good kid who DOESN'T hate Jews or wish any harm to Israel. Plus she renounced iSSlam once. We owe her a bit of lattitude given her tender years and family circumstances.
We don't owe Sarah or any filthy muslim ANYTHING.
I don't care how old she is.
I don't care about her family circumstances.
She renounced islam once ?
She can renounce it a million times for all I care.
As far as I'm concerned an insincere renouncement is totally worthless.
And if she's still defending islam or showing signs of reverting in her posts, then quite frankly, she's full of crap and still a mooozie at heart.
You can't be halfway pregnant or halfway ex-moooozie.
Never trusted her, never liked her. She's always set my moooodar off, even when operating in stealth mode.
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Wow this thread is a complete waste of space. No way should this be a sticky. What a waste of our times to worry about this. JTF is in desperate need to have it's word spread throughout the Internet so it becomes a mass movement but I see a bunch of people here worrying about a person who may not even exist.
The chances of "Sarah" being a Muslim 15 year old girl are probably the same as "Sarah" being a fat 40-something year old pervert who gets his jollies from pretending to be a little Muslim girl on a Jewish forum. The Internet is filled with pervs and sickos and it would not shock me in the least if "Sarah" is one of them and that a bunch of you guys have wasted a lot of your time that you will never get back. Stop worrying about this BS and start planning how you will help spread the word about JTF!
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Wow this thread is a complete waste of space. No way should this be a sticky. What a waste of our times to worry about this. JTF is in desperate need to have it's word spread throughout the Internet so it becomes a mass movement but I see a bunch of people here worrying about a person who may not even exist.
The chances of "Sarah" being a Muslim 15 year old girl are probably the same as "Sarah" being a fat 40-something year old pervert who gets his jollies from pretending to be a little Muslim girl on a Jewish forum. The Internet is filled with pervs and sickos and it would not shock me in the least if "Sarah" is one of them and that a bunch of you guys have wasted a lot of your time that you will never get back. Stop worrying about this BS and start planning how you will help spread the word about JTF!
She's real, trust me.
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I have no idea how you can know that, but... if you say so.
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There are Muslims who just pray, fast and keep their dietary laws. They probably do not read those violent verses of the Koran, or they may interpret that they are annulled by other verses. Some understand that Jihad is just a spiritual struggle against themselves and their earthly wishes.
Other Muslims support terorism but don't take it to practise, or at least would not kill their own children if they leave Islam.
Some other Muslims are very dangerous and would kill Sarah for coming here. We don't know what kind of Muslims are Sarah's parents.
I'd better stop storming her with remorses, lest she openly renounces and rejects Islam in public and be murdered by her family. She's nearly a child. When she grows up she'll decide by herself. I wouldn't like to be blamed by Hashem for her life.
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She can PM me if it's a question of personal security.
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Wow this thread is a complete waste of space. No way should this be a sticky. What a waste of our times to worry about this. JTF is in desperate need to have it's word spread throughout the Internet so it becomes a mass movement but I see a bunch of people here worrying about a person who may not even exist.
The chances of "Sarah" being a Muslim 15 year old girl are probably the same as "Sarah" being a fat 40-something year old pervert who gets his jollies from pretending to be a little Muslim girl on a Jewish forum. The Internet is filled with pervs and sickos and it would not shock me in the least if "Sarah" is one of them and that a bunch of you guys have wasted a lot of your time that you will never get back. Stop worrying about this BS and start planning how you will help spread the word about JTF!
Finally, a Rational Person... Baltimore you're a no nonsense kind of guy. O0
However, I like Newman's approach he tried to extend his kindness and help others. Great!
But a 1-2 week sticky is definitely too much...
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That's a very nice letter Newman. I hope it has the affect that you are hoping for.
It's the Morocco move, isn't it?
Did she move from England to Morocco. I was not aware of that and I suppose it could be a reason for the tone of some of her posts of late.
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I appreciate what you;re trying to do, newman, but your letter goes seriously against the forum's rules, and I find it rather offensive.
The church where he was baptised and taken to by his parents each sunday used to put hot pokers in Jews' eyes. The man/G-d jesus he worshiped, that embodyment of absolute love and forgiveness, that living guarantee of everlasting life................false. Well, at least he's still got the father.....just not the son. As for the history, it was centuries ago. It's distant enough not to weigh too heavily. A bitter pill? Yes, but he copes.
Not only are you claiming that every church in existance useed to be atorture house for Jews, you are also attacking the christian faith without evidence, I thought the purpose of this forum was for Jews, Christians, Noachides and others to work together against common enemies, such as muslims, if this post is to be allowed, even stickied by the forum's moderators, I don't think JTF is the type of organsation that any christian will want to be a part of.
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Wow this thread is a complete waste of space. No way should this be a sticky. What a waste of our times to worry about this. JTF is in desperate need to have it's word spread throughout the Internet so it becomes a mass movement but I see a bunch of people here worrying about a person who may not even exist.
The chances of "Sarah" being a Muslim 15 year old girl are probably the same as "Sarah" being a fat 40-something year old pervert who gets his jollies from pretending to be a little Muslim girl on a Jewish forum. The Internet is filled with pervs and sickos and it would not shock me in the least if "Sarah" is one of them and that a bunch of you guys have wasted a lot of your time that you will never get back. Stop worrying about this BS and start planning how you will help spread the word about JTF!
I believe Sarah.
On that issue, you have no reason to believe any of us is actually the people we are saying we are. But, it's not fun to be a perenoid.
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Sarah, it's time to be honest with yourself and us.
Nothing's easy. Life's tough enough, but for some it's tougher. I'm not talking money, bills, school or homework. I mean the other stuff some have to cope with.
The nice anglo-christian who grows to like the Jews discovers some things about his history, nation and community he has trouble accepting. Richard the Lion Heart, that great warrior king he admired as a boy turns out to be a scumbag who locked Jews in their synagogues and burnt them alive! The church where he was baptised and taken to by his parents each sunday used to put hot pokers in Jews' eyes. The man/G-d jesus he worshiped, that embodyment of absolute love and forgiveness, that living guarantee of everlasting life................false. Well, at least he's still got the father.....just not the son. As for the history, it was centuries ago. It's distant enough not to weigh too heavily. A bitter pill? Yes, but he copes.
The nice, post war German boy fares worse. He comes to the shocking realisation that his grandparents' generation (and sometimes his grandparents themselves) were/are monsters.He's painfully reminded every so often in old B&W newsreels. He's different to other boys in other countries. Patriotism and nationalism are taboo here. His countrymen are less nationalistic at the soccer than others. His countrymen are not allowed to be. The past is as unpleasant a subject with his elders as discussing the day's bowel motions. He learns that HIS country and HIS people are responsible for the most unspeakable crime in the history of man. He's rightly devastated. Unlike his anglo-saxon contemporary the crimes of his countrymen are not so distant. There are living members of his own family who took part! He can't dismiss it as ancient history. What does he do? He does what any normal human would. He attempts to deny....or rationalise..........or understate. Sometimes he does all three."Hitler only had 30% support". "The public didn't know about the camps"."Genocide was never the original intention" ...............and so on. The problem is he has trouble convincing himself. He needs some reinforcement. So he tries to convince himself by convincing others. He runs the same justifications, denials and arguments by others in the hope that by convincing them, he'll convince himself. It doesn't work either. His peace will only come with painful honesty and acceptance of the awful truth. The bigger, more bitter pill must be swallowed. Some succeed. Most don't.
I know how it must be for you, Sarah. You're a lovely, kind, gentle girl without a mallicious or hateful bone in your body. You too have come to a shocking realisation about the culture and faith of your birth. And you've confronted it bravely. I know why you've recently tried returning to islam. You're trying to protect your sanity. It's the Morocco move, isn't it? To live there as a non-muslim, living a lie and a charade would be an unbearable torture. Confronting your family about it even worse (to you). I believe you've done the only thing that you (subconsciously) think you can do. You've tried to find something worthy in it. Something to convince you that the acts of violence, destruction, misogyny and hate that you see 24/7 in every paper and on every TV are somehow not a part of it. That you can find a legitimate and worthy faith and way of life without having to leave islam and split with your family and home. Conflict avoidance. It's understandable, Sarah. Anyone in your situation would do the same. The truth is , Sarah..............it's simply denial.
I know you don't really believe the excuses, explainations and taqqiya of your teachers and Imams anymore than I do. It would be nice if it was so. To write off the terror, rape, flogging of rape victims and sharia mutilations as some sort of abberation carried out by a misguided minority would be so much easier. If only that was the case how much easier would your life be? Imagine the peace of mind if it was so. I know you've been desperately trying to convince yourself it is so by using the JTF forum as a sounding board. It's OK. It's a natural thing to try and do. But as much as you want to believe what they tell you, the facts and your own common sense won't allow it. The floggings, executions, mutilations and abuse of women are ordered by islamic courts, not street gangs. Those courts are presided over by senior islamic schollars, not peasants. The terror, murders and rapes are given ascent by Imams, not illiterate tribesmen. When someone asks the question."where is the non-radical majority in islam opposing the radical minority?" there is still no answer. You know this inconvenient truth. That's the source of your conflict. It's no wonder you want to walk into a deep forest and just disappear. I would too if I were in your shoes.
Now Sarah............................Please tell me honestly if I'm right or wrong. If I'm wrong ....where and how. I don't mean in religion. I mean about you. I can give you a link to sites containing the truth about islam but I don't think that's neccessary. You already know deep down despite the pain and conflict this knowledge causes you. Just tell me.
Your friend
Andrew.
I can see the stupid ignorant muslims around the world. I can see that they're murdering innocent people and being damn right evil.
I can also see good muslims, who don't want to harm non-muslims and just want to live their lives in peace.
So then I look at the Quran. I cannot believe that a person could have written it:
‘We have sent you to the entire mankind to give them good tidings, and warn them; but most people do not understand this.’
(Saba’ 34: 28)
‘The Jews say, ‘The Christians have no valid grounds’; the Christians say, ‘The Jews have no valid grounds’; and both quote the Book [of God]. So do those who have no knowledge [of the Book] speak like them. But it is God who will decide between them on the Day of Ressurection about all on which they differ.’
(al-Baqarah 2: 113)
‘Whosoever holds fast to God, he has been guided onto the Straight Path.’
(al-Imran 3: 101)
‘Say: He is God, the One and Unique;
God, the Eternal source and support
Of everything;
He begets not, and neither is He begotten;
And none is His equal.’
(al-Ikhlas 112: 1-4)
I asked somebody, what they make of all the terror thats being caused by muslims and they told me it had been prophesised, that muslims would face trouble as a sign of the ending of the world. We also had a religious studies lesson today, and it was explained how the Jews knew that another Prophet was coming but thought that his name would be Ahmed.
Does the Torah, state that no religions should come after Judaism. Even after the incidents that caused the children of Israel to be punished?
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It wasn't by chance that I managed to land upon such a great forum.
I don't like this.
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‘The Jews say, ‘The Christians have no valid grounds’; the Christians say, ‘The Jews have no valid grounds’; and both quote the Book [of G-d]. So do those who have no knowledge [of the Book] speak like them. But it is G-d who will decide between them on the Day of Ressurection about all on which they differ.’
(al-Baqarah 2: 113)
Why are you quoting this? This is a sure fire way to get banned.
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Does the Torah, state that no religions should come after Judaism. Even after the incidents that caused the children of Israel to be punished?
The Torah says no one is allowed to add upon it or change it.
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Does the Torah, state that no religions should come after Judaism. Even after the incidents that caused the children of Israel to be punished?
The Torah says no one is allowed to add upon it or change it.
Let me just add...This is what Mohammed did..he added and changed what was written in teh Torah. That's why Jews can never become Muslims or eat Halal etc etc etc.
I don't think there is anywhere in Judaism that other religions cannot exist before or after it. In Judaism, we believe that Jews and Torah...real Torah, will never disappear and we are Gd willing, forever. However, all other fake religions will disappear on their own volition. We consider fake religions to be the ones with fake gods and idols.
Another point of view which Judaism carries about other religions is not one of disdain either. We also believe that someone can be righteous and be of a different religiou. We don't believe in a one world religion and that every nation is judged separately by Gd based on its actions with each other and to the Jewish people. So while Jews will disagree with other theologies, it will talk about it so that its own people won't convert to antoher religion that isn't kosher, so to speak.
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Is there anything then in the torah, that hints the coming of other prophets? Who is Elijah?
Islam includes many aspects of Judaism, Christianity and its own Islam, so that is equivalent of adding upon the Torah right?
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Is there anything then in the torah, that hints the coming of other prophets? Who is Elijah?
Islam includes many aspects of Judaism, Christianity and its own Islam, so that is equivalent of adding upon the Torah right?
No there isn't. The next era according to the Torah/Talmud will be the Messianic era as far as I know.
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ok
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ok
Well..?
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Prophet was coming but thought that his name would be Ahmed.
Er, no. The only one tha the Jews belive is left to come is the Messiah, they do not know what his name will be, but they believe that he will be of the line of King David.
Ahmed is a name some Moslims use for Mohammed, I'm guessing this religous studies lesson was at a muslim school?
As for the contents of the quran and hadiths: http://jtf.org/forum_english/index.php?topic=3995.0 I'm way less than half way through it, but surely, you can't believe that any loving God would write such books, just read what it says. Women are worth half a man, kill the unbelievers, etc, this is not the work of any deity who deserves to be served.
Rather than trying to find mysticism in the Quran, read the bible.
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ok
You have asked a very honest question.. I asked myself the same question when I was in a muslim area.
Many proofs that the torah is eternal and nothing comes after it.. I looked these up years ago when I was living with muslims..
It says jews are commanded to eat matza, and that this is a commandment for all your generations. eternally.
"You shall observe the feast of matzah; for in this same day have I brought your armies out of the land of Egypt: therefore shall you observe this day throughout your generations by an ordinance forever. "
In Islam, jews are not required to eat matza.
Also, In the books of prophets, the last prophet mentioned says that we should keep the torah forever and wait for Eliyahu HaNavi who will bring us to torah.. And in Jeremiah, it speaks of the end of times when the torah will be inscribed into our hearts.
Islam is totally inconsistent with this. Yet Islam claims to continue judaism
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I would like to add also..
If a religion makes a claim, it is up to the religion to support itself.
Not for it to say "I believe this. PROVE ME WRONG".
I believe in little green martians. PROVE ME WRONG.
There is simply no evidence of islam being true.
And all the claims of evidence that islam is true. Are hoaxes.
Like claims of scientific miracles. But let`s not go into all of that..
I discovered later, alot of evidence of absurdity, not told to me by muslims.
See videos by investigateislam and iceyyy on youtube.
Another thing muslims use for islam, is its simplicity. In reality, they muslims are very confused about things, even the first verse..
But really, this is all secondary.
It has no evidence of its truth, and all the supposed evidence, are hoaxes. So it stands on a mountain of hoaxes. That should suggest something to you.
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Is there anything then in the torah, that hints the coming of other prophets? Who is Elijah?
Islam includes many aspects of Judaism, Christianity and its own Islam, so that is equivalent of adding upon the Torah right?
I think it was Nehemiah that was considered as the last prophet..not exactly sure.
As far as the coming of other prophets such as Elijah....this I think is for the "world to come" and on the days of the messiah...i mean, I'm not as well versed on this aspect.
Islam claims to include aspects of Judaism and Christianity...What Mohammed did was take what he liked and get rid of what he didn't like and changed what he saw fit...In Judaism you're not allowed ot do that...You're not allowed to pick and choose laws.
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Sarah, it's time to be honest with yourself and us.
Nothing's easy. Life's tough enough, but for some it's tougher. I'm not talking money, bills, school or homework. I mean the other stuff some have to cope with.
The nice anglo-christian who grows to like the Jews discovers some things about his history, nation and community he has trouble accepting. Richard the Lion Heart, that great warrior king he admired as a boy turns out to be a scumbag who locked Jews in their synagogues and burnt them alive! The church where he was baptised and taken to by his parents each sunday used to put hot pokers in Jews' eyes. The man/G-d jesus he worshiped, that embodyment of absolute love and forgiveness, that living guarantee of everlasting life................false. Well, at least he's still got the father.....just not the son. As for the history, it was centuries ago. It's distant enough not to weigh too heavily. A bitter pill? Yes, but he copes.
The nice, post war German boy fares worse. He comes to the shocking realisation that his grandparents' generation (and sometimes his grandparents themselves) were/are monsters.He's painfully reminded every so often in old B&W newsreels. He's different to other boys in other countries. Patriotism and nationalism are taboo here. His countrymen are less nationalistic at the soccer than others. His countrymen are not allowed to be. The past is as unpleasant a subject with his elders as discussing the day's bowel motions. He learns that HIS country and HIS people are responsible for the most unspeakable crime in the history of man. He's rightly devastated. Unlike his anglo-saxon contemporary the crimes of his countrymen are not so distant. There are living members of his own family who took part! He can't dismiss it as ancient history. What does he do? He does what any normal human would. He attempts to deny....or rationalise..........or understate. Sometimes he does all three."Hitler only had 30% support". "The public didn't know about the camps"."Genocide was never the original intention" ...............and so on. The problem is he has trouble convincing himself. He needs some reinforcement. So he tries to convince himself by convincing others. He runs the same justifications, denials and arguments by others in the hope that by convincing them, he'll convince himself. It doesn't work either. His peace will only come with painful honesty and acceptance of the awful truth. The bigger, more bitter pill must be swallowed. Some succeed. Most don't.
I know how it must be for you, Sarah. You're a lovely, kind, gentle girl without a mallicious or hateful bone in your body. You too have come to a shocking realisation about the culture and faith of your birth. And you've confronted it bravely. I know why you've recently tried returning to islam. You're trying to protect your sanity. It's the Morocco move, isn't it? To live there as a non-muslim, living a lie and a charade would be an unbearable torture. Confronting your family about it even worse (to you). I believe you've done the only thing that you (subconsciously) think you can do. You've tried to find something worthy in it. Something to convince you that the acts of violence, destruction, misogyny and hate that you see 24/7 in every paper and on every TV are somehow not a part of it. That you can find a legitimate and worthy faith and way of life without having to leave islam and split with your family and home. Conflict avoidance. It's understandable, Sarah. Anyone in your situation would do the same. The truth is , Sarah..............it's simply denial.
I know you don't really believe the excuses, explainations and taqqiya of your teachers and Imams anymore than I do. It would be nice if it was so. To write off the terror, rape, flogging of rape victims and sharia mutilations as some sort of abberation carried out by a misguided minority would be so much easier. If only that was the case how much easier would your life be? Imagine the peace of mind if it was so. I know you've been desperately trying to convince yourself it is so by using the JTF forum as a sounding board. It's OK. It's a natural thing to try and do. But as much as you want to believe what they tell you, the facts and your own common sense won't allow it. The floggings, executions, mutilations and abuse of women are ordered by islamic courts, not street gangs. Those courts are presided over by senior islamic schollars, not peasants. The terror, murders and rapes are given ascent by Imams, not illiterate tribesmen. When someone asks the question."where is the non-radical majority in islam opposing the radical minority?" there is still no answer. You know this inconvenient truth. That's the source of your conflict. It's no wonder you want to walk into a deep forest and just disappear. I would too if I were in your shoes.
Now Sarah............................Please tell me honestly if I'm right or wrong. If I'm wrong ....where and how. I don't mean in religion. I mean about you. I can give you a link to sites containing the truth about islam but I don't think that's neccessary. You already know deep down despite the pain and conflict this knowledge causes you. Just tell me.
Your friend
Andrew.
I can see the stupid ignorant muslims around the world. I can see that they're murdering innocent people and being damn right evil.
I can also see good muslims, who don't want to harm non-muslims and just want to live their lives in peace.
So then I look at the Quran. I cannot believe that a person could have written it:
‘We have sent you to the entire mankind to give them good tidings, and warn them; but most people do not understand this.’
(Saba’ 34: 28)
‘The Jews say, ‘The Christians have no valid grounds’; the Christians say, ‘The Jews have no valid grounds’; and both quote the Book [of G-d]. So do those who have no knowledge [of the Book] speak like them. But it is G-d who will decide between them on the Day of Ressurection about all on which they differ.’
(al-Baqarah 2: 113)
‘Whosoever holds fast to G-d, he has been guided onto the Straight Path.’
(al-Imran 3: 101)
‘Say: He is G-d, the One and Unique;
G-d, the Eternal source and support
Of everything;
He begets not, and neither is He begotten;
And none is His equal.’
(al-Ikhlas 112: 1-4)
I asked somebody, what they make of all the terror thats being caused by muslims and they told me it had been prophesised, that muslims would face trouble as a sign of the ending of the world. We also had a religious studies lesson today, and it was explained how the Jews knew that another Prophet was coming but thought that his name would be Ahmed.
Does the Torah, state that no religions should come after Judaism. Even after the incidents that caused the children of Israel to be punished?
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It wasn't by chance that I managed to land upon such a great forum.
I don't like this.
This is utter nonsense. What about those verses makes you think they can't have been written by man? They steal concepts from the original Torah just as all other religions have done to try to convert the Jews. There is no objective verification that that text came from G-d and does contradict the one that we all agree really did telling us that it is not valid.
Question: Why do you focus on these verses while avoiding the many many verses santioning violence of Muslims against G-d's chosen people in direct contradiction to the Torah.
This story your teacher is telling is about Ahmed is a complete lie. Ask him or her for a source. I swear these people just make things up as they go along. Question them, challenge them. Don't just swallow this garbage while at the same time practially ignoring the very valid points being made on this forum by our members. If only you were half as stubborn in challenging your Muslim Nazi teachers.
Of course there are other prophets. Elija lived in the times of Tanach and will return to announch the coming of the Messiah. But ANY claimed prophet is judge by ONE main critereon. Does he come to fulfill what the Torah says, or does he try to carve a new path. If he tries to carve a new path then he is not only not a prophet he must be killed. Such was the status of your "prophet".
Mohammed's Nazi wars with the Jews make him an evil Amalekite in the eyes of the Torah, not a prophet. How many times did G-d get angry with the Jews in the Bible but kept to His eternal covenant with them? And how many times were the enemies of the Jewish people punished despite what the Jews had done wrong.
Have you read the Bible? G-d says His people are an EVERLASTING inheritence. What part of everlasting don't you understand?
This has all been explained to you before but your mind is closed unfortunately.
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If a religion makes a claim, it is up to the religion to support itself.
Not islam:
"O ye who believe! Ask not questions about things which if made plain to you, may cause you trouble. Some people before you did ask such questions, and on that account lost their faith." (Surah 5:101-102)
"The Holy Prophet himself forbade people to ask questions ...so do not try to probe into such things." (The Meaning of the Qur'an, Maududi, vol. III, pgs. 76-77)
"The prophet was asked about things which he did not like, and when the questioner insisted, the Prophet got angry. (vol. 1, no. 92) The Prophet got angry and his cheeks or his face became red. (vol. 1, no. 91) "Allah has hated you...[for] asking too many questions." (vol. 2, no. 555; and vol. 3, no. 591, Bukhari's Hadith commenting on Muhammad’s reaction to hostile questioners.)
Islam is the information control cult O0
Muslims are simply NOT supposed to question anything....the ones who do usually end up leaving, see any ex muslim site and they will tell you thats when reality hit them.
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So because Islam says the Jews were expecting 'Ahmed' that means they really were? hahahahahaha
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Muslims also say that Jews were cursed by God because they asked too many questions and that some even asked Moses to take them up mount sinai, to talk to God. God spoke to them and then questioned Him and asked to see Him, God blinded them.
I was once told that you had to believe in Islam before anybody could question it....
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Muslims also say that Jews were cursed by G-d because they asked too many questions and that some even asked Moses to take them up mount sinai, to talk to G-d. G-d spoke to them and then questioned Him and asked to see Him, G-d blinded them.
I was once told that you had to believe in Islam before anybody could question it....
ONe should always question, if something makes no sense, you don't follow it.
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Another thing muslims use for islam, is its simplicity.
Yet we are told that we misunderstand islam because there are many different interpretations and that we need to read the quran in arabic and even those who speak arabic have a hard time understanding it. So which is it? Is it simple or complicated? ??? :-\
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Another thing muslims use for islam, is its simplicity.
Yet we are told that we misunderstand islam because there are many different interpretations and that we need to read the quran in arabic and even those who speak arabic have a hard time understanding it. So which is it? Is it simple or complicated? ??? :-\
I don`t agree with your argument.
I know why they say you have to read it in arabic.. I am sure you do too. It is a defence mechanism. And anyhow, mostly they do not speak arabic anyway. So it works as a defence mechanism for themselves too.
(in rare cases it could be that the problem is resolved by the fact that there is really a mistranslation, but not nearly as often as they pretend)
I don`t think it matters whether it is simple or complex either. That bares no relation to truth.
It is simple in the framework that it is taught. But if you ask them how many commandments they have, they will not be able to answer. Really it proves nothing.
That is why I say it is wrong for the reasons that I do.
Other valid reasons - which I consider valid but only as a secondary thing - are its immorality , perversity, absurdity.
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Another thing muslims use for islam, is its simplicity.
Yet we are told that we misunderstand islam because there are many different interpretations and that we need to read the quran in arabic and even those who speak arabic have a hard time understanding it. So which is it? Is it simple or complicated? ??? :-\
I don`t agree with your argument.
I know why they say you have to read it in arabic.. it is a defence mechanism. And anyhow, mostly they do not speak arabic anyway. So it works as a defence mechanism for themselves too.
I don`t think it matters whether it is simple or complex either. That bares no relation to truth.
It is simple in the framework that it is taught. But if you ask them how many commandments they have, they will not be able to answer. Really it proves nothing.
That is why I say it is wrong for the reasons that I do.
Other valid reasons - which I consider valid but only as a secondary thing - are its immorality , perversity, absurdity.
I did not make an argument, simply an observation based on arguments used by muslims when they are confronted with some of the absurdities you speak of.
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A chap on youtube who goes by the name of investigateislam put the lie to everything they say about needing to know arabic, he knows arabic, and if anything, the stuff he digs up from the quran and the hadiths makes it sound worse still than stuff that I as a non-arabic speaker can find.
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Anyone who believes a religion or a branch of it is fake, is also bound to believe what they teach must be fake. If you already have decided that the whole Koran is fake, then you have no right to say who are the true Muslims. You have already declared Muhammad is not a prophet, so what's the sense of saying that terrorist are true Muslims, and those who are peacefull are no longer Muslims? Once you have declared it's fake, then you are bound to believe thay are all fake.
And those who believe in Koran...let them decide whay meaning they believe!
Up till 1965 all Catholic believed Jews are cursed, and rememeber that during the first milenia of Christianity, al Christians were Catholic, there was no Reform. Using the same arguments you should say that anyone who is not a "traditional" Catholic (Those who rejected Pope John 23's changes) are fake Christians.
Regarding Sarah, she's very young. She's come here and never said anything against the Jews. If she were a Jew-hater she would spend her time in anti-Semitic anti-Zionist forums, or perhaps she'd go to false peacefull forums which support Pals. and want to divide Jerusalem.
So better leave her in peace. It's cruel to storm her mind for a violent verses in the books of her parents.
I am always very carefull not to storm teens, even anti-semite teens, unless they really attack or offend Jews in that moment. If they only have a bad concept of Jews, or have been taught to dislike non Catholics (as it's the case here) I just leave them alone while thay are teens.
A long time ago when I hadn't even been interested in Judaism ( even if I had already abandoned paganism, I still didn't know about conversions or Noachidism) I used to listen to Kol Yisrael radio from Jerusalem. I was just a fan of Short Wave radios, epecially in English, as I was learning English. I wrote a letter to Kol Israel and they sent me plenty of magazines about Israel and Jerusalem.
A Catholic teen who came to my mother's house was amazed at those magazines from so far away, and asked how he could buy them. I told him that they were not sold in Argentina, that they were sent as a courtesy by Kol Israel to the listeners who wrote to them and commented on their programs. And the teen said "But Israelis are Jews, and Jews are evils who reject Jesus, how could I write to Israel?". I just replied that he should respect all religions. I was thinking to myself, it were the Catholic who were evil, burnt Jews and have taught your parents to hate, and so it was taught to you also. In fact it's you that is into evil without knowing!!! But I kept my thoughts to myself, why storming a teen?
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Muslims also say that Jews were cursed by G-d because they asked too many questions and that some even asked Moses to take them up mount sinai, to talk to G-d. G-d spoke to them and then questioned Him and asked to see Him, G-d blinded them.
I was once told that you had to believe in Islam before anybody could question it....
Ask her/him for one place in thver and e Bible where it says the entire Jewish people are cursed. What a lie. The Jewish people are said to be blessed in the Bible oover again. Not only that but it repeatedly says that the other nations are blessed through the blessing of the Jews. For saying that the Jewish people are cursed the Bible promises says that these Muslims will be cursed. That's the real truth. (bless them that bless thee..)
Are individual Jews sometimes punished? Of course they are but to say that because of that they are cursed as a people completely contradicts the Bible and is true heresy.
The Bible. Read it. Learn it. Live it. Read it yourself and stop swallowing these lies.
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Sarah you still havn't answered the important questions.
Why do you cherry pick certain verses in the koran and ignore others?
If only certain parts of the book are acceptable to you, you should accept NONE of it. Would you buy a car with good seats but with faulty brakes?
Why will you not be critical of the koran? I, Mills and others were born christian and we still questioned our scriptures and beliefs. It's not that hard.
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Sarah you still havn't answered the important questions.
Why do you cherry pick certain verses in the koran and ignore others?
If only certain parts of the book are acceptable to you, you should accept NONE of it. Would you buy a car with good seats but with faulty brakes?
Why will you not be critical of the koran? I, Mills and others were born christian and we still questioned our scriptures and beliefs. It's not that hard.
Newman you bring up a very key issue with Islam and Muslims...None of them question the Koran..lest if some of them did, they woudl be beheaded!
however, Christians do it with their own scriptures..and Jews have been doing it since the beginning of time...And as a result, look at our wonderful Talmud...it's our way of understanding the hidden message.
But Islam is like the jealous sibling that wants to be number one and so he tries to beat up no the other siblings and prove to his parents that he's the best child...and look what Mohammed did...he copied our religion but just replaced Jews with muslims...and cut out all the stuff he didnt' like and made the Koran like it was the best thing since slice bread..but it reality is and always will be a fraudulant religion..I'm sad to see that humans have to do this to feel included...no humility..all pride...it's sick i tell you SICK! Want to just kick them all in the nuts!
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Sarah you still havn't answered the important questions.
Why do you cherry pick certain verses in the koran and ignore others?
If only certain parts of the book are acceptable to you, you should accept NONE of it. Would you buy a car with good seats but with faulty brakes?
Why will you not be critical of the koran? I, Mills and others were born christian and we still questioned our scriptures and beliefs. It's not that hard.
Newman you bring up a very key issue with Islam and Muslims...None of them question the Koran..lest if some of them did, they woudl be beheaded!
however, Christians do it with their own scriptures..and Jews have been doing it since the beginning of time...And as a result, look at our wonderful Talmud...it's our way of understanding the hidden message.
But Islam is like the jealous sibling that wants to be number one and so he tries to beat up no the other siblings and prove to his parents that he's the best child...and look what Mohammed did...he copied our religion but just replaced Jews with muslims...and cut out all the stuff he didnt' like and made the Koran like it was the best thing since slice bread..but it reality is and always will be a fraudulant religion..I'm sad to see that humans have to do this to feel included...no humility..all pride...it's sick i tell you SICK! Want to just kick them all in the nuts!
I agree.
I couldn't care less about filthy turd world arabs and other losers having their lives made miserable by iSSlam. But Sarah is so bright, lovely and gifted it's a vile crime for her to be consumed by this evil. The thought of her wearing a bag, living in a hovel and being treated like livestock by some muSSlim pig makes me want to butcher muSSlims wholesale!!
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Sarah you still havn't answered the important questions.
Why do you cherry pick certain verses in the koran and ignore others?
If only certain parts of the book are acceptable to you, you should accept NONE of it. Would you buy a car with good seats but with faulty brakes?
Why will you not be critical of the koran? I, Mills and others were born christian and we still questioned our scriptures and beliefs. It's not that hard.
Newman you bring up a very key issue with Islam and Muslims...None of them question the Koran..lest if some of them did, they woudl be beheaded!
however, Christians do it with their own scriptures..and Jews have been doing it since the beginning of time...And as a result, look at our wonderful Talmud...it's our way of understanding the hidden message.
But Islam is like the jealous sibling that wants to be number one and so he tries to beat up no the other siblings and prove to his parents that he's the best child...and look what Mohammed did...he copied our religion but just replaced Jews with muslims...and cut out all the stuff he didnt' like and made the Koran like it was the best thing since slice bread..but it reality is and always will be a fraudulant religion..I'm sad to see that humans have to do this to feel included...no humility..all pride...it's sick i tell you SICK! Want to just kick them all in the nuts!
I agree.
I couldn't care less about filthy turd world arabs and other losers having their lives made miserable by iSSlam. But Sarah is so bright, lovely and gifted it's a vile crime for her to be consumed by this evil. The thought of her wearing a bag, living in a hovel and being treated like livestock by some muSSlim pig makes me want to butcher muSSlims wholesale!!
honestly, you are starting to sound a little bit "liberal" like me in regards to this...LOL..I guess I have that effect on hardcore righties. Nevertheless, I would end this thread by telling Sarah, "We are here for her when she needs us anything we can do to help. However, if you are not ready to leave, don't forget what we have told you..goodbye and good luck. We will pray for your strength to leave evil doers safely." Honestly, I know of one Persian Muslim girl who secretly and truely converted to Judaism and after her parents found out almost kicked the living day lights out of her..Thank Gd she knew enough Takkiya to fool her parents that she gave it all up...but continues to secretly be Jewish. Oddly enough, her name is Sara also.
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And consider this, Sarah............
All the people on this forum love you and care about you. Even if you do revert to Islam, we'll all keep you in our prayers and wish you only peace and happiness.
Those muSSlims you associate with and that you THINK care about you will all wish you dead if you leave iSSlam.
What's the more worthy faith?
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Let us use Truth as our yardstick
sarah mentions this idea that the jews are cursed,
(I see you are thinking about how islam claims to be a continuation of judaism.. what it claims. I asked myself the question of Does the Torah refute this idea)
Besides what I said about why islam is false.. (really there is no need to go further)
This idea islam claims also conflicts with the idea that is a continuation of judaism.
According to the Torah, the Jews are blessed when they follow the Torah, and cursed/punished, when they do not.
The torah says you cannot add or delete from it. Islam deletes all the jewish commandments. And adds all of its own. Islam does not follow the Torah. Even muslims would agree with that.
So here is the clincher.
According to the Torah. If Jews follow the Quran, then they are CURSED!!!!!!!
note- muslims claim, as usual, without evidence, that we "corrupted" the torah. Besides the reasons for why they claim this, and the reasons why it is not. They could in theory, say you corrupted it, so you do not follow it, so you are cursed. One could respond, and say what is your evidence that it is corrupted. And they have none. BUT, this is all irrelevant, since Following the Quran would for sure result in curses!!!
Sarah mentioned Elijah. That is Eliyahu HaNavi who I mentioned in a previous post. The Tenach mentions at the end of the books of prophets, that we should keep the torah, and eventually he will return and help bring us to Torah. So, this is another thing that shows that according to the Tenach, the torah is eternal.
Even if you try to read in some out of context interpretation that corroborates with islam, and pretend that only parts are eternal, like the eating of matza which it says is eternal, then islam does not require that that be done. Muslims do not do it.
You do not need to go as far as this, in disproving islam. But you can..
If everybody around you believed in little green martians, would you try to disprove it? Good luck? `cos they are invisible. You can`t smell them? Didn`t I tell you that they don`t smell, they are very very clean.
I spoke to a muslim once that believed that little demons (jinn) were hanging onto people and whispering in their ears, and that is why you have homosexuals and the like. Muslims believe the quran was given to mankind and jinn. But they believe in jinn because they believe in islam. And islam has as much evidence for it, as invisible little green martians.
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my answers to these 2 questions you asked, have been very complete.
I understand your questions, because I asked myself those questions when muslims were "inviting me to islam".
I do not know how you want to play this at your school... I suggest you do not show knowledge of the torah. Muslims will be suspicious of you.. The number one thing is that you should be safe.
remember that the punishment for apostacy in islam, is death.
now, in britain, there was a program on recently, on how a muslim became christian, and had has had to move home, he had his windows smashed, he has not been killed - this is britain still!!! He was beaten up, and so was his sister. They were beaten up together.
Jews do not encourage people to become jewish. Your life would be all the harder if you did.. Judaism does not say that you need to be jewish to be saved. Better than being a muslim. You could be a noachide, and your friends could just think you are a bit secular, or a lapsed muslim.
Put your safety first, and do not let muslims suspect that you are considering other religions.
They will be friendly when you ask them questions about What they believe. But if you start coming to them with quotes from the Tenach, they won`t just not like it. They will be suspicious of you, they make you feel uncomfortable, who knows what would happen.. You are in a muslim environment, and you are from a muslim family.. So be smart about your safety.
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Muslims also say that Jews were cursed by G-d because they asked too many questions and that some even asked Moses to take them up mount sinai, to talk to G-d. G-d spoke to them and then questioned Him and asked to see Him, G-d blinded them.
I was once told that you had to believe in Islam before anybody could question it....
I can't recall a single accurate quote of Jewish lore in the Quran, they are all completely corrupt and distorted, out of malice and ignorance. And specifically regarding the above quote, There is Talmudic Midrash which tells how the jews said "We shall Comply and we shall hear" in that order, when Moses asked them if they would accept the Torah, and in the Quran this story is completely corrupted, and in surah 2:93 The Israelites supposedly tell God in mount Sinai as He gives them the torah: "We shall hear and we shall defy".
And moreover, it is said that had the Israelites refused the Torah, then God would have crush them beneath the mountain.
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Great posts by zelhar and q_q.
I find that a fascinating and very telling corruption of the Torah that you mention Zelhar. I hope you are paying attention Sarah.
Here's Surah 2:93:
We made a covenant with you, as we raised Mount Sinai above you, saying, "You shall uphold the commandments we have given you, strongly, and listen." They said, "We hear, but we disobey." Their hearts became filled with adoration for the calf, due to their disbelief. Say, "Miserable indeed is what your faith dictates upon you, if you do have any faith."
And here is the orignal verse and I"m going to use King James translation here just to bend over backwards to be neutral:
Exodous 24:7:
And he took the book of the covenant, and read in the audience of the people: and they said, All that the LORD hath said will we do, and be obedient.[/
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Yet another of the ample examples of Koranic corruption of the truth in the effort to demonize the Jews just as all Amalekites have done before Mohammed (YSVZ) and after him.
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Sarah you still havn't answered the important questions.
Why do you cherry pick certain verses in the koran and ignore others?
If only certain parts of the book are acceptable to you, you should accept NONE of it. Would you buy a car with good seats but with faulty brakes?
Why will you not be critical of the koran? I, Mills and others were born christian and we still questioned our scriptures and beliefs. It's not that hard.
Because there are some verses that very good, I cannot believe they were written simply by a scribe. As for the others I do not Ignore them.
There are many intelligent people that think the Quran is spectacular, not just muslims but scientists and scholars. Why do they?
I fear that I will make a wrong decision. In fact, I know this sounds weird, but i'm scared of the Quran.
I tried breaking out of the habit of following Islam today. Just to see if it made a difference. We had a Quran test today, where we have to recite some verses that we memorise. I couldn't even say them, I wanted to, but my mouth wouldn't even let me.
The bible is a lot more complicated then the Quran, you're right.
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The good bits of the Quran are generally things copied from the Bible or the Talmud, I can source most of them if you want me too... Though it would take hours and I don't have that time right now, on Friday I should have some time, if you give me a shortish list of "good" Quranic quotes I'll find where they've been copied from for you.
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Thank you.
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Sarah,
Why are you continuing to struggle with this? You know that the culture in which you have been raised is evil. Everybody here is right--if there are parts of the Koran that look good, it is because it was copied from the Judeo-Christian Bible!
None of the "good" parts of the Koran are ever lived out!
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Sarah,
Why are you continuing to struggle with this? You know that the culture in which you have been raised is evil. Everybody here is right--if there are parts of the Koran that look good, it is because it was copied from the Judeo-Christian Bible!
None of the "good" parts of the Koran are ever lived out!
perhaps i can articulate the way I think Sarah feels...Imagine if the truth, Gd forbid, was that Gd really never existed and your whole life this was the truth you only knew to understand. But by the evidence the other person was showing it coudl possibly be true! Can't you imagine how hard that woudl be break out of that habit of beleiving Gd?!
So perhaps to Sarah, the Koran is like her Gd her truth and no matter what we might say to prove to her that it isn't truth. It's not easy for her. I feel for her...and the right thing to do is for those who can on this forum to help her understand..and if she can never get away from it at the age of 15, then we can only pray that she will have the strength to break free.
In a way, what Sarah is goign through reminds me of the way Abraham was as a child or teenager when he was realizing what Gd really was...and not some sort of idol. Since Sarah seeks the truth, she will find her answer with her own udnerstanding and we should do our best within reason to help her.
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The good bits of the Quran are generally things copied from the Bible or the Talmud, I can source most of them if you want me too... Though it would take hours and I don't have that time right now, on Friday I should have some time, if you give me a shortish list of "good" Quranic quotes I'll find where they've been copied from for you.
I will also make a similar challenge. Find me the quotes you think are "good" and I'll tell you how they are found in the Torah in a more accurate and even better fashion. Every religion has some good in it or else nobody would ever convert to it.
But remember: a half-truth is a whole lie.
If even one word in the Koran is found to go against the true original Bible, that means the entire thing can't be trusted.
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Sarah you still havn't answered the important questions.
Why do you cherry pick certain verses in the koran and ignore others?
If only certain parts of the book are acceptable to you, you should accept NONE of it. Would you buy a car with good seats but with faulty brakes?
Why will you not be critical of the koran? I, Mills and others were born christian and we still questioned our scriptures and beliefs. It's not that hard.
Because there are some verses that very good, I cannot believe they were written simply by a scribe. As for the others I do not Ignore them.
There are many intelligent people that think the Quran is spectacular, not just muslims but scientists and scholars. Why do they?
I fear that I will make a wrong decision. In fact, I know this sounds weird, but i'm scared of the Quran.
Anything based on and copied from Torah will have good parts.
There are schollars who wax lyrical about the teachings of the Buhdda and Bagavad Gita, too.
How can you make a wrong decision? All you're doing differently by leaving islam is rejecting terror, female subjugation, Jew-hatred and sharia cruelty. Noachidism is Torah for gentiles OR islam with the evil removed. You don't have to tell your family immediately. Just pretend your busy with study and not so observant. Sounds like some of your family aren't real observant, either.
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Mohamed was also in contact with Christians who were considered heretical in their beliefs which just adds more confusion to the Koran.
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Sarah, I know you don't think infidels must be exterminated but do you believe all non-Muslims will burn in hell forever or at best non-Muslims will be unable to earn a place in Heaven? Even someone like mother Teresa? Please be honest. I bet there are also Christians on this forum that believe this.
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Sarah, I know you don't think infidels must be exterminated but do you believe all non-Muslims will burn in hell forever or at best non-Muslims will be unable to earn a place in Heaven? Even someone like mother Teresa? Please be honest. I bet there are also Christians on this forum that believe this.
We all know she doesn't think that, but islam does (or dhimitude/slavery). The point is that if she disagrees with this, she CAN'T be a muslim.
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Because there are some verses that very good, I cannot believe they were written simply by a scribe. As for the others I do not Ignore them.
There are many intelligent people that think the Quran is spectacular, not just muslims but scientists and scholars. Why do they?
I fear that I will make a wrong decision. In fact, I know this sounds weird, but i'm scared of the Quran.
I tried breaking out of the habit of following Islam today. Just to see if it made a difference. We had a Quran test today, where we have to recite some verses that we memorise. I couldn't even say them, I wanted to, but my mouth wouldn't even let me.
The bible is a lot more complicated then the Quran, you're right.
You should have read more carefully. Remember when I said islam stands on a mountain of hoaxes?
like the scientific hoaxes?
The scientist thing IS A HOAX.
http://www.faithfreedom.org/Articles/DGolden/touting_science.htm
I could elaborate alot on this subject. Most muslims do believe in it. But I hope it is not necessary to elaborate.
And "scholars"? There are many christian scholars and muslim scholars and jewish and buddist scholars. That does not make them all correct.
Nice verses!!!
note- Putting aside whether islam has nice verses or not.
Every religion has nice verses, infact, I recall a guy on a website complaining that he wanted to find bad passages, in sikhism like other religions, but he could not find it in sikhism. It has equality of the sexes , and many concepts which agree to western values and ethics. And was written long ago.
It is not about verses you find "nice" and verses you find "not nice", that does not make something true or false.
Man is capable of writing nice things. (sometimes for bad reasons). Do you now think that every religion had G-d write the nice verses, and a man invent the rest ? By the reasoning you apply to the quran, yes !
Anyhow. If you do not accept the totality of the quran then you are not a muslim.
Similarly, religious jews - if they are honest - would accept the totality of Torah.
You know there are sects of jews that do not accept the totality of torah.. The truth is they do not accept any of it. They just take what they like. Nowadays, around 50% of reform conservative and liberal rabbis admit they do not believe in G-d !! In Rabbi Kahane`s time it was 30%, and he thought that was outrageous.
You should see sense that islam is not divinely revealed from G-d. It is false.
And then have the sense, not to say that in your islammic school !! Because if you want to be safe, you are going to have to be smart - like you can be.
In your school, if you are in danger from not reciting some text from the quran, then just recite it. The Quran is worthless. But your life is valuable. A school is somewhere you have to go back to every day. (unless you change school, and you are reliant on your parents). So be careful..
I would be able to recite a horrible verse. Just accept that mohammed said it. Don`t fool yourself into believing mohammed was a saint
And do not seriously accept this idea of accepting some of islam and not others. Because doing that, to any religion, is even more stupid. Since the religion makes a divine claim, on its totality. And that is the basis for its belief or rejection. We know that any man or woman can produce nice verses. (or horrible verses).
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We all know she doesn't think that, but islam does (or dhimitude/slavery). The point is that if she disagrees with this, she CAN'T be a muslim.
She said she doesn't agree with the killing of innocent people but I don't think I read any post saying she doesn't think non-Muslims will go to hell or it's possible for them to earn a place in Heaven. And also, Sarah, when Muhammad insults infidels calling them apes, devils dogs and pigs (hey guys type in devils dogs pigs and koran in google and JTF is the first search result :) ) and deaf dumb and blind do you agree with this?
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you say you are scared of the quran.
islam has some extreme threats.. A thorny plant shoved down your throat. That your skin will be burnt and replaced with a new skin that will be burnt e.t.c. 72 virgins if you follow it, No virgins if you do not!
lots of religions can give threats.. I think some forms of christianity say that a person goes to hell unless they believe in jesus as lord and saviour.
You cannot accept both.
But, you are only hearing and questioning the things you hear about islam From Muslims.
I know that, because I recognise the questions you have asked..
Mohammed himself as you must know had sex with a 9 year old girl. (apparently she had hit puberty, bubt she still played with dolls. She was still a 9 year old girl. )
Actually, mohammed in the quran writes about marrying and having sex with and divorcing little girls too young to menstruate. Quran 65:4 , see tafsir.
Mohammed taught that heaven will be filled with 72 virgins and then in the hadith, they are described. You know how they are described? Amongst other things, they will be *like a she camel in heat*. A camel in heat is happy, but what is distinct about a she camel, is that her vagina swells up in the heat. Obviously mohammed and the arab men he wrote for, had watched that and "loved" that. To the extent they even knew what he was referring to when he said "she camel in heat".
You are only shown islam through a simple framework that covers up the problematic bits.
The Quran is complex- in that it is a mess. The first verse "revealed to mohammed" is in 96:1 , and one of the last verses given to mohammed is in chapter 3. That is what islam itself claims, though muslims do not voice that when they try to convince you. There is no logical reason for that order, i.e. it is jumbled up. The chapters, and even the verses within the chapters. (unlike the torah which is thousands of years in chrological order)
You can learn all this FROM EX MUSLIMS. You would never hear this from muslims.
http://www.youtube.com/user/iceyyy - she has some videos from "investigateislam", and some videos she did herself, such as the one about the she camel.
Once you see this. It will be so obvious who mohammed was, what he was, and what he was not. You would have to be insane to even consider the possibility that he was a prophet. (besides the fact that he made no prophesies) , that his teachings are from G-d. He was a very perverted arab man in a desert, writing for desperate arab men in a desert. Men who understand sex and violence. And the sex is so perverted, little girls, comparisons to horses and camels. This is written by a disgusting man.
One can say beyond any doubt, not just "I do not believe islam". But "I believe islam is false".
Either way, one is not a muslim!
And just being scared of islam`s threats in hell, is no reason to consider it.. Since other religions also make threats. like as I said, some forms of christianity say one goes to hell if one does not accept jesus as lord and saviour. You cannot believe both.
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Sarah look at this orthodox Jewish scientist from the top U.S. university he turned Famous British atheist into beleiving in G-D and creation http://www.geraldschroeder.com/index.html
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True story, but that is a dangerous and illogical road..
For one thing, there are the scientific hoaxes done by muslims, with scientists allegedly claiming to have been convinced. Muslims excel at these hoaxes. This is not a hoax, but one would have to distinguish them. Here is an article on the muslim one. http://www.faithfreedom.org/Articles/DGolden/touting_science.htm
Of the 3 popular books Gerald Shroeder put out first. I like 2 of them. I understand that the third was basically about intelligent design. Apparently that was the one that convinced the renowned aethist Anthony Flew.
But so what..
And his belief is not so logically founded anyhow..
"
In his letter of Jan. 2, 2005, Flew says that if the “so confident, atheist polemicist Richard Dawkins” tells him that Schroeder is wrong, he will admit that Schroeder is wrong. But he assumes that Dawkins accepts Schroeder’s arguments, since Dawkins “made no reference to your article.”
.....
TWO YEARS LATER, Flew’s doubts have disappeared, and the philosopher has a reinvigorated faith in his theistic friends. In his new book, he freely cites Schroeder, Haldane and Varghese
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Of shroeder`s popular first 3 books
He read Shroeder`s intelligent design book.
I have read Shroder`s other 2 books , they are very good, but details in the science has come under some criticism..
Not necessarily by aethists..
Rabbi Prof Dr Dovid Gottlieb, a brilliantly logical, serious rabbi. Prof philosophy, PhD mathematical deduction, Wrote a critique..
http://www.dovidgottlieb.com/comments/CommentsGenesisBigBang.htm
Of course, this does not prove anything, we would have to see Shroeder`s response.. And either way, if shroder is right or wrong, it is irrelevant.. It is a bad idea to rest belief in G-d on such a weak foundation.. as to say "Oh, this great aethist turned into a theist", so it must be logical.
Shroeder has a degree from MIT, and I think has become a rabbi, but his science is questioned by other scientists, like orthodox jewish professor natan aviezer, and as a rabbi, he is not well known or renowned. What torah books or lectures has he written or given. I don`t think of this about Flew or even Shroeder is relevant to proving G-d.
If one finds intelligent design convincing, then fine..
that is more logical than just relying on an aethist turned theist.
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No i agree the Atheist turned slightly less then deist [i would'nt call him a diest because now he beleives in a power he never sais G-D] still i think Schroeder does bring some interesting thoughts to the discussion.No scientist can prove G-D exists that is only Emunah[faith]
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actually, according to the extremely logical rabbi I mentioned, Emunah means Trust.
Which is like Belief/faith and acting on that belief/faith.
He sees that by looking at all occurrences of the word in the torah.
He does not see it as a leap of faith. He says there is always "an if" , what if the world was created 5 seconds ago.. What if your parents are not who they claim to be - they just picked out somebody that looked like you.. We cannot know anything beyond any theoretical doubts. (infact, when proving somebody guilty, in america, they say do so `beyond reasonable doubt`, you could always find doubts - but are they reasonable!)
He disagrees with arguments of intelligent design. But he thinks the evidence is that judaism is true. And that that is not a leap of faith.. But I don`t think jews are meant to go around trying to convince gentiles that judaism is true.
note- when I did jury service, the british lawyers ask the jury "are you sure".. maybe only american ones you have to be "beyond reasonable doubt".. But i think it amounts to the same thing. Another thing to bare in mind, was we sentenced a guy for stealing.. But the law was, that he had to know he was stealing. The decider was that police testified that he was hiding away when they came, they found him in a cupboard..
In court, he denied that he was hiding in a cupboard. That, combined with his bad attitude, made us sure he was lying, and that he knew he was stealing..
Fact is.. it is possible that he only hid because he thought he might lose a future case, and he did not want police hassle, and he still felt he was not stealing. Infact, the illiterate black muslim hilariously told the policeman "I know the law, I`ve had 20 years experience!!!!"
the other case I sat in, an asian muslim.. this one was the claimant.. (the victim- allegedly). He was telling his story.. How he is a window cleaner and these guys (mostly black) kidnapped him and tried to get him to give them £10,000.. After being beaten terribly, he called his girlfriend to give them all he had. She gave them his precious rolex watch that he says he bought from an ex girlfriend for £300. The kidnapper realises it is fake. He throws it down and beats the guy further. As he gives his testimony, it turns out that he knew the kidnappers.. they were not strangers at all.. He had smoked pot with them in his car in the past.. He had been caught with them, driving a car with stolen wheels.. All these things,, he had denied. So he just was not credible. The lawyer defending him said he won`t do it. Case thrown out of court. Tax payers money spent on 4 lawyers, one for each of the criminals who the claim is against, and for the lawyer of the "victim", and on the judge and for the jury, for days.
At one point.. the lawyer for one of the criminals, the one white one, said "is it possible that my client did not kick you, he just walked from one end of the van to the other in the dark, and tripped over you?" . He said "yes, that`s possible". That was it!! other lawyers were pissed.
Maybe this compares to the mohammed`s satanic verses incident! He tries to convince the pagans, so mohammed said you can worship certain pagan gods. He was obviously poked about that, so he later said that it is wrong, and satan had got him to say that! Then there is the abrogation, so he could justify making up the rules as he went along not being bound by what he decided was law in the past. Then there is the 1 hour marriage.. The marrying and divorcing little children, aisha that 6 year old. The fact that he married an older rich woman then once he had amassed wealth from her, he married a child. This does reflect badly on his character and thus his claims.. Nevertheless, I think the fundemantal thing is no positive evidence.. Secondary thing is islam`s claims do not hold up.. e.g. about it being a continuation of the torah.. Then maybe, that he was an unethical pervert.
western values on what is ethical would condemn some things in the bible too, like killing amalek..
the capital punishments in the torah are prob not worse than the electric chair. Death was instant. e.g. stoning was strapping the person up and dropping him from a height onto a rock. So it is not as bad as islammic countries, where the crowd all join in throwing stones shouting allah akbur, and the woman is not dead for ages, and blood comes through the cloth.. and they keep throwing the stones, (I saw a video from an iranian dissident website) .. Besides the fact that in judaism, the cpaital punishment only applies if the sanhedrin are sitting in the court of the temple.. (we have no temple, and no recognised sanhedrin). And if 2 witnesses, and the guy has to agree to be killed(so must be quite a righteous person!)!! And he has to be warned beforehand.. and if they sentence more thna one person in like 50 or 70 years, they are considered a bloodthirsty court. So it is more of a deterrent.. Still though, even as a deterrent, capital punishment, even if instantaneous, for breaking a law of G-d does not fit into western values.
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No offence to you lot, but get to the real heart of it.....
Sarah, do you agree with this verse, allah says hes all knowing and all wise, so if you are going to be a muslim, you either must agree withthis verse in the quran and leave this forum as you are a nazi, or renounce islam....
sura 5.51. "O ye who believe! take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors: They are but friends and protectors to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them. Verily God guideth not a people unjust "
I think you are lying....
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No offence to you lot, but get to the real heart of it.....
Sarah, do you agree with this verse, allah says hes all knowing and all wise, so if you are going to be a muslim, you either must agree withthis verse in the quran and leave this forum as you are a nazi, or renounce islam....
sura 5.51. "O ye who believe! take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors: They are but friends and protectors to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them. Verily G-d guideth not a people unjust "
I think you are lying....
I would not be so harsh..
But,
this is relevant
http://www.tafsir.com/default.asp?sid=5&tid=14148
it defines people of the book as enemies of islam. And says not to take them as friends.
and it also specifies "those that commit shirk" (i.e. christians)
for the sake of completeness ..
consider Sheikh Palazzi`s comments on that verse
http://www.amislam.com/pundit13.htm
He is a sunni muslim.. and a zionist. I have an extremely high opinion of him. He is better than all the people in the knesset.
But that is not that relevant. And, as Iceyyy once said, one does not understand/interpret the verses with ones own mind, but with the tafsir - which is the meaning of the quran.. And as investigateislam said, one does not do it with arabic dictionaries. The Tafsir is the meaning..
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We all know she doesn't think that, but islam does (or dhimitude/slavery). The point is that if she disagrees with this, she CAN'T be a muslim.
She said she doesn't agree with the killing of innocent people but I don't think I read any post saying she doesn't think non-Muslims will go to hell or it's possible for them to earn a place in Heaven. And also, Sarah, when Muhammad insults infidels calling them apes, devils dogs and pigs (hey guys type in devils dogs pigs and koran in google and JTF is the first search result :) ) and deaf dumb and blind do you agree with this?
Sarah does not need to say it. Islam is clear that Jews, Christians, Sabbeans (and Parsis also, according to some Muslims) have a good place in Heaven and nothing to Fear on the Day of Final Judgement if they pray and give charity. The big problem is that most Muslims will forcebly convert a pagan and then, if he wants to choose another religion, he is in danger. They have also made Jews's lives miserable during their rule in Arab countries. And of course, if they can convert a Jew, they'll do it and then he is in danger if he leaves!!!! But no Muslim has ever said a non-Muslim goes to Hell. Only some Christians say it: If you are not baptized you suffer eternally. However I have heard very few, if any, Muslim who respects Israel.
Anyway, Sarah is a teen, please don't press on her. Let her grow up and decide for herself. I dislike the way she is treated here.
And it's not true that a Muslim is forbidden to befriend Jews or Christians, he is only discouraged from seeking their protection in times of need or danger. So don't storm Sarah anymore.
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There is no point trying to convince this girl of something if she doesn't believe in it herself. To believe she must develop a personal relationship with god. If she wants to be a sheep, then let her drift.
Sarah, read the 10 Commandments... That's a good start. Then picture the world as it would be if everyone lived according to them. If you agree with all of them, then you shouldn't be a Muslim because your current religion clearly contradicts those values both in text and in action.