JTF.ORG Forum
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks on May 27, 2008, 03:01:41 PM
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Shalom Chaim,
I take responsibility for starting a raunchy poll last week, quite out of the blue, purely for amusement purposes. It was not as bad as some others I have put up, but it was obviously inappropriate and I knew/know better. I do not at all contest the new absolute zero-tolerance policy regarding raunchy posts. What upset me was only that it appeared that Satmarism was being defended. That angered me and DownwithIslam a lot, not being told I could not make lewd polls about our enemies.
While on the subject of Satmarism: while it may be true that there are individual examples ("onesies and twosies") of Satmar members who are alright Jews, they are the exceptions to the rule (as you obviously know). Those couple of Satmar participants in JDL were nice people despite being Satmars, not because of it. They had to make a personal decision to override Satmar theology to do what they did, and they would be considered heretics by their other brethren. I know that you would affirm that 99% of Satmars are Jewish Amalek and Biblically/Talmudically are considered sheer and utter rodefs. I think that any kind of defense of this perverse cult of Judaism on this forum should be absolutely forbidden.
So, that is it. I do not at all defend my inappropriate action in this case and apologize for it. But I don't think that any kind words for a pernicious cult that is diametrically opposed to orthodox Judaism, Christianity, and all that JTF stands for should be tolerated for one moment.
G-d bless you,
Chaimfan
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Sorry to see, you are completly ignorant about Jewish groups. Most "Talmudic Judaism" does not have a problem with Satmer, and I have been in lectures where amoung other groups some of the ideas by Satmer were mentioned (and these lectures were given by very great outstanding Rabbis, with very great personality and depth in knowledge in Judaism, not even Askenazic, but Sefardi and Bukharian Rabbis).
I do not appreciate anyone calling my fellow Jews 99% Amalik, and if anything someone like you has a much greater chance of being amalik then those Jews people happen to disagree with. (dont spinn this into me saying you are amalik, but I am saying that if anything you are much closer to amalik then they are). And I dont appreciate expecialy a goy calling Jews Amalik.
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Listen...you can hate and scream and cry about those who are wrong or disagree with you, but your messages and polls that are suggestive of homosexuality is not the appropriate way of talking about anyone really...especially religious Jews who are misguided terribly on the issue of Israel, fellow Jews, and the Lubovitch. WE do not need to stoop to their level.
Rather, what is effective is to take their arguements that are against Israel and fellow Jews and righteous gentiles, and rip them apart with arguements proving them wrong. This is a forum of intellectual power and righteous behavior. Evil speak and sexual suggestive comments are completely tantamount to this movement and this forum...very inappropriate.
Also a little hint...making fun of people behind their backs is not half as affective as it is in their faces..
ANd with religious Jews, Satmar or not Satmar...making fun of them in their faces makes one look lower than their evil behavior..and to a bystander who knows nothing...well, he might take the side of the evil group and not the one who makes fun of it.
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Great post, Dr. Dan.
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CF and DWI are very smart passionate people...I love them both. But it's sometimes wise to control your anger...I get angry too..and sometimes I have flipped out..I never won a conversation flipping out.
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but I am saying that if anything you are much closer to amalik then they are). And I dont appreciate expecialy a goy calling Jews Amalik.
Tzvi, I think you are much more closer to Amalek than I am.
I find it odd to find a guy with your mentality on a Kahanist site.
You are lucky to get away with this ''I praise the Satmars'' bull.
To CF: Evidently, you lost this battle. The admins have sided with Tzvi.
I think everyone should just burry the hatchet and move on.
Peace.
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Listen...you can hate and scream and cry about those who are wrong or disagree with you, but your messages and polls that are suggestive of homosexuality is not the appropriate way of talking about anyone really...especially religious Jews who are misguided terribly on the issue of Israel, fellow Jews, and the Lubovitch. WE do not need to stoop to their level.
I already apologized for the lewd and lascivious poll and never once defended it.
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Sorry to see, you are completly ignorant about Jewish groups. Most "Talmudic Judaism" does not have a problem with Satmer, and I have been in lectures where amoung other groups some of the ideas by Satmer were mentioned (and these lectures were given by very great outstanding Rabbis, with very great personality and depth in knowledge in Judaism, not even Askenazic, but Sefaradi and Bukharian Rabbis).
I do not appreciate anyone calling my fellow Jews 99% Amalik, and if anything someone like you has a much greater chance of being amalik then those Jews people happen to disagree with. (dont spinn this into me saying you are amalik, but I am saying that if anything you are much closer to amalik then they are). And I dont appreciate expecialy a goy calling Jews Amalik.
I'd like to see what Chaim has to say to this. ::)
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People, just remember something.
We have Jews, Catholics, Protestants, Eastern Orthodox Christians, Noahides, and atheists on this forum. So Chaimfan, even though you mean well, I think, and everybody here, has to be careful about criticizing members or denominations of another person's religion. Otherwise, we would all be at each other's throats, and we wouldn't get anything done.
As one example, the Jews or Serbs here may not agree with the positions of the RCC over the years. But that should be no excuse to make derogatory comments about their leaders. We have wonderful Catholic members here, and we want them to always feel welcome. And the same holds true for Satmars. We will certainly have differences with some of their Rabbis and followers. But that's no reason to compare all of them to Amalek.
So like I've often said before, just stick to the facts when you're discussing your opinions, and you should be fine.
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Lisa, I see Satmarism as no different from Lutheranism or replacement-theology Christianity. While there are individual exceptions in all three faiths, the fact is that if you strictly hold to the core teachings of them, then you are, by definition, an anti-Semite. The vast majority of all three religious denominations are devout Jew-haters.
My advice to any Satmar (or Lutheran, or replacement-theologian) who is not anti-Israel is to get out of the denomination now and turn to Biblically orthodox Judaism or Christianity.
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בס''ד
A Jew who informs on his fellow Jews or who joins with enemies of the Jewish people is כרת or cut off from the Jewish people. These self-hating Jews are known as the ערב רב erev rav. The Vilna Gaon, HaRav Tzvi Yehudah Kook and HaRav Meir Kahane all defined erev rav traitors as the most dangerous enemies of the Jewish people, far more dangerous than Gentile anti-Semites. HaRav Kahane always said, "We don't have an Arab problem. We have a Jewish problem," which means that Jewish traitors are the ones who bring disasters upon the Jewish people. Therefore, erev rav traitors like Peace Now, Nateuri Karta and the news media/Hollywood/multinational corporation "Jews" are the number one enemy of the Jewish people. And yes, these erev rav traitors zealously support the Muslim Amalekites and all other Amalekite enemies of the Jewish people - therefore the erev rav traitors are Amalek.
Now I am not willing to classify all Satmar Chasidim as Amalek. But some of them certainly are. Those who want the Muslim Nazis to exterminate little Israel because they want to see the Zionist Jews murdered - anyone who feels that way is Amalek. And there are Satmar who feel that way. I know because many of them told me so when they used to call in to a radio program that I did in the 1980s called "The JDL Speaks" on WNYM. I also got Rabbi Kahane a half hour weekly program on that radio station, and the Satmar had the chutzpah to curse Rabbi Kahane as well. I don't blame all of the Satmar because I love my fellow Jews, and I want to give every Jew the benefit of the doubt. But I do not love traitors and informers who support Amalek, and at least some of the Satmar fall into that category.
Tzvi, I do not have סמיכה or rabbinic ordination and so I usually am not able to give פסקי הלכה or halachic determinations. But I am going to פוסק despite not being a rabbi on one matter: the demeaning manner in which you address CF as a "goy" or as DWI's "Mexican friend" is completely against the Torah way. To show contempt for someone just because they are Gentile is utterly un-Jewish behavior. Especially a righteous Gentile like CF. I urge you to publicly apologize to CF. Not for his sake, he doesn't need your apology. But you should apologize for your sake, because your behavior toward him constitutes a clear עברה or transgression of Torah law.
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PS: Lisa, the other thing to add is that Catholic and Orthodox theology do not require you to be an anti-Semite in order to be a member in good standing of the denomination. That's where I would draw the line between them and Satmarism. If a religious sect requires you to believe something outrageous by its very nature, then I tend not to have much respect for it.
If Chaim does not want me to speak ill of the Satmar any more, I will respect it.
Peace out.
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Thank you, Chaim. My contributions here are over. I consider this case closed. I just wanted to let you know that I don't at all disagree with obscene humor being declared verboten.
G-d bless again.
Chaimfan
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All this name calling and deragatory remarks are getting us nowhere. We don't have to agree on every topic, but a certain degree of respectability must be maintained. C.F.'s poll was improper, but it has brought a rather important issue into the forefront. I highly doubt Reform or Reconstructionist Jewish arguements against Israel would be held to the same level as the Satmar are allowed to get away with...
Personally, I think Satmar who openly preach this type of drek should be given the same treatment we delve out to the Shimon Peres, Norman Finklestein or Joe Liberman types. We all have squabbles and disagreements over issues, but i doubt any of us would condone their atricious behavior, the Satmar should be held to the same standards, instead of using their stance as "religious Jews" as a sheild against criticism.
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but I am saying that if anything you are much closer to amalik then they are). And I dont appreciate expecialy a goy calling Jews Amalik.
Tzvi, I think you are much more closer to Amalek than I am.
I find it odd to find a guy with your mentality on a Kahanist site.
You are lucky to get away with this ''I praise the Satmars'' bull.
To CF: Evidently, you lost this battle. The admins have sided with Tzvi.
I think everyone should just burry the hatchet and move on.
Peace.
Archie, you are a real kahanist. Unfortuantely, that cannot be said for everyone who contributed to this thread. I wont really continue this fight as its not good for the cause but I have to say that Tzvi Ben Roshel should not be used as an example of a model religious jew by people reading this thread because he is openly violating the torah obligation to be humble. I guess he only follows the rules that Rabbi Mizrachi discusses in his lectures I guess he never discussed humility. I would hope he publicly apologizes to Chaimfan as CBP himself instructed him to. I dont believe he will though because Chaimfan is "Below his stature." Anyhow I wont continue to post in this thread as I dont want it to turn into another multiple pager but I would hope these personal attacks against me and Chaimfan will stop. Thank you.
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All this name calling and deragatory remarks are getting us nowhere. We don't have to agree on every topic, but a certain degree of respectability must be maintained. C.F.'s poll was improper, but it has brought a rather important issue into the forefront. I highly doubt Reform or Reconstructionist Jewish arguements against Israel would be held to the same level as the Satmar are allowed to get away with...
Personally, I think Satmar who openly preach this type of drek should be given the same treatment we delve out to the Shimon Peres, Norman Finklestein or Joe Liberman types. We all have squabbles and disagreements over issues, but i doubt any of us would condone their atricious behavior, the Satmar should be held to the same standards, instead of using their stance as "religious Jews" as a sheild against criticism.
I agree with you.
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I saw a video that took place on shabbos the netura karta on the podium with moslems and the extreme leftist anti Israel group answer run by communist leslie kagan the communist.They don'nt even care about maaras eyim [how it appears]
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I saw a video that took place on shabbos the netura karta on the podium with moslems and the extreme leftist anti Israel group answer run by communist leslie kagan the communist.They don'nt even care about maaras eyim [how it appears]
Forget about Maris Ayin, these beasts openly say they want Israel dismantled. You know what that means. How could these satmar kikes even make an attempt to appear normal when their hate book "Vayoel Mashe" written by The Satmar "Rabbi" openly calls for Israel destruction. Defending Satmar is like defending Izlam.
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I saw a video that took place on shabbos the netura karta on the podium with moslems and the extreme leftist anti Israel group answer run by communist leslie kagan the communist.They don'nt even care about maaras eyim [how it appears]
Forget about Maris Ayin, these beasts openly say they want Israel dismantled. You know what that means. How could these satmar kikes even make an attempt to appear normal when their hate book "Vayoel Mashe" written by The Satmar "Rabbi" openly calls for Israel destruction. Defending Satmar is like defending Izlam.
I agree but this just shows how they don'nt even care about Shabbos
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They dont care about anything other than living in luxurious homes and trying to get their fellow jews killed.
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I like CF and Down with Islam. I wish nobody would fight with anyone else if we're all on the same side.
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They dont care about anything other than living in luxurious homes and trying to get their fellow jews killed.
THIS IS TRUE ALTHOUGH I KNEW 2 PEOPLE FROM KIRYAT SANZ THAT JOINED THE ARMY .I THINK SANZ HAS SOME TIES TO THE SATMAR
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I saw a video that took place on shabbos the netura karta on the podium with moslems and the extreme leftist anti Israel group answer run by communist leslie kagan the communist.They don'nt even care about maaras eyim [how it appears]
I witnessed a small manifestion of NKs in Montreal in the summer of 2006.
I couldn't believe how WRONG these individuals were against their people.
It was a very sad spectacle. I'll never forget.
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YES THIS IS TRUE
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I like CF and Down with Islam. I wish nobody would fight with anyone else if we're all on the same side.
We arent fighting at all. If this was a fight, I would stop posting in this thread for the sake of the movt. I am continuing to post because we are merely having a discussion about Satmar. I think that is perfectly legitimate. I do understand your concern though.
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I saw a video that took place on shabbos the netura karta on the podium with moslems and the extreme leftist anti Israel group answer run by communist leslie kagan the communist.They don'nt even care about maaras eyim [how it appears]
I witnessed a small manifestion of NKs in Montreal in the summer of 2006.
I couldn't believe how WRONG these individuals were against their people.
It was a very sad spectacle. I'll never forget.
I rememeber when that fat pig Ariel Sharon came to speak at Baruch College in manhattan before the disengagement. I knew a guy who went to the protest outside that was being held against the disengagement. He took pictures of the satmars. Their was a particularly huge Satmar turnout there and they were holding signs such as "Israel is a cancer" and others. The guy told e that these beasts said they live in Williamsburg so you know what that means.
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I like CF and Down with Islam. I wish nobody would fight with anyone else if we're all on the same side.
We arent fighting at all. If this was a fight, I would stop posting in this thread for the sake of the movt. I am continuing to post because we are merely having a discussion about Satmar. I think that is perfectly legitimate. I do understand your concern though.
Well for my part I really have always respected the Jewish people and Israel and I want them to survive and to have a strong homeland. I grew up believing that the Jewish people had a right to Israel. I am here mostly because I'd like to help Israel to be secure.
Of course, saving the USA and other civilized nations is also important to me and I think JTF would help that too.
I find it hard to care about helping someone who talks to Gentiles as if we're lesser somehow. We're all human beings and I believe God loves me too. One reason I respect Chaim so much is that he's respectful and kind to both Jews and Gentiles even as he has a wonderful loyalty to his own people and has sacrificed so much for them.
I try to stay out of conversations about Jewish groups vs. Jewish groups because I don't think I should be telling other people how to follow their religion. I've gotten really annoyed by non-Christians telling me that I wasn't a good Christian, so I wouldn't want to do that to any other religion. Sometimes, though, like C.F., I can make a pretty good guess as to who's doing better things! I usually don't talk about it though unless it's really blatant like someone praising the Palescumians outright. :::D
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I saw a video that took place on shabbos the netura karta on the podium with moslems and the extreme leftist anti Israel group answer run by communist leslie kagan the communist.They don'nt even care about maaras eyim [how it appears]
Forget about Maris Ayin, these beasts openly say they want Israel dismantled. You know what that means. How could these satmar kikes even make an attempt to appear normal when their hate book "Vayoel Mashe" written by The Satmar "Rabbi" openly calls for Israel destruction. Defending Satmar is like defending Izlam.
I've often heard N.K. jerk-off Dovid Weiss claim that during the diaspora, Jews lived in relative peace and harmony with their Arab neighbors. This guy is obviously clueless, Jews were forced to accept the humiliating and segregated status of dhimmi's in Islamic countires. They were forced to to ride donkeys instead of horses or mules, wear ankle boots rather than sandals, mustaches rather than beards, and various other identifiers (including unmatched-colored shoes in Yemen, and yellow patches in 13th century Iran).
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Out of respect for Chaim, I won't flame away at Satmars anymore, but I think it would be a good idea if Chaim produced a video explaining theologically how they are a cult of Judaism.
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Technically Christianity would be considered a false cult much further removed according to Judaism, right or wrong? If he made a video about them, wouldn't they ask why he works with Christians?
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Technically Christianity would be considered a false cult much further removed according to Judaism, right or wrong? If he made a video about them, wouldn't they ask why he works with Christians?
I wouldn't call it that. While there are similarities, the two religions separated long ago.
In terms of Satmars and others asking why Chaim works with Christians, I'm sure there are already people asking these questions. But so what? JTF accepts all good people.
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That's a good answer, Lisa! :)
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To DWI - Anybody that condemns Satmar as a group, are ignorant idiots.. Rabbi Kahane was not against the Satmar. He respected the fact that they took a Torah position. Rabbi Kahane was against Neturei Karta.
For standing with the arabs - who want the jewish people destroyed.
Tzvi often says stupid things. But he is not ignorant on this. And when it comes to judaism, then even with his stupidities, he is far more sensible than you in discussion. Because he is not an ignoramous in judaism, he is a jew that is passionate in learning about judaism. You are not jewish, so you certainly don't follow judaism, and are commenting on things way out of your depth. And you really provoked him and others by constantly posting against the Satmar even though things were explained to you again and again and again.
I think it was you DWI (or somebody you agree with?) that was even stupid enough to post that the satmar rebbe was not a proper rabbi, and that he agreed with Arafat. When I pushed on that to quote from him, book/website, page, words, e.t.c. you failed to deliver. And then when posts got lost, you started your rant again. Very intellectually dishonest and provocative.
Chaim has opened our eyes to a new fact.. That SOME Satmar are like neturei karta, wanting israel destroyed. Supporting the arabs. And he said how he encountered them. This fact was not stated/known before..
Nevertheless.. This does not change the fact, that, as Chaim said. Not all Satmar are like this.
And certainly, the Satmar Rebbe was not pro the arabs destroying israel militarily. Or standing with our enemies..
Fortunately, I missed when this escalated to CF doing some sexually perverse poll about satmar ..
Look at Chaim's post. He is not against all satmar.
Neither was Rabbi Kahane.
I would expect disproportionate reactions when provoking people.. this is a kahanist forum!!
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We have to do what we have to do. And worrying about what others are, or might be saying is pointless. (Although sometimes, that's easier said than done.)
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I saw a video that took place on shabbos the netura karta on the podium with moslems and the extreme leftist anti Israel group answer run by communist leslie kagan the communist.They don'nt even care about maaras eyim [how it appears]
Forget about Maris Ayin, these beasts openly say they want Israel dismantled. You know what that means. How could these satmar kikes even make an attempt to appear normal when their hate book "Vayoel Mashe" written by The Satmar "Rabbi" openly calls for Israel destruction. Defending Satmar is like defending Izlam.
I've often heard N.K. jerk-off Dovid Weiss claim that during the diaspora, Jews lived in relative peace and harmony with their Arab neighbors. This guy is obviously clueless, Jews were forced to accept the humiliating and segregated status of dhimmi's in Islamic countires. They were forced to to ride donkeys instead of horses or mules, wear ankle boots rather than sandals, mustaches rather than beards, and various other identifiers (including unmatched-colored shoes in Yemen, and yellow patches in 13th century Iran).
Well.. the neturei karta couldn't care less about being treated like donkeys.. They think of that as a good thing. The arabs need them, they won't kill them. They don't want "dignity" They don't value those things. They just want to be able to keep the Torah, that's it.
Their view is that Jewish weakness is fine/good(maybe a kiddush hashem!), and jewish strength is a desecration of G-d's name..
It's the opposite of Kahanism. Kahanism says jewish weakness is a chillul hashem, jewish strength a kiddush hashem - see youtube, rabbi kahane speaking to bnei noach, giving a bible lesson, ezekiel ch26 or 36.
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Actually, q_q, DownwithIslam is Jewish. He's not as observant as Tzvi or Yacov, but he as a brother who is very religious. And he speaks Yiddish fluently.
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in a very open discussion I Had with a NK type.. He said to me
"we were their donkeys" And he said it to express how we got along fine with them. And we were safe.
They are aware of being downtrodden.. but for them that's fine.
Of course, they'd rather live in america! Notice that!
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To DWI - Anybody that condemns Satmar as a group, are ignorant idiots.. Rabbi Kahane was not against the Satmar. He respected the fact that they took a Torah position. Rabbi Kahane was against Neturei Karta.
For standing with the arabs - who want the jewish people destroyed.
Tzvi often says stupid things. But he is not ignorant on this. And when it comes to judaism, then even with his stupidities, he is far more sensible than you in discussion. Because he is not an ignoramous in judaism, he is a jew that is passionate in learning about judaism. You are not jewish, so you certainly don't follow judaism, and are commenting on things way out of your depth. And you really provoked him and others by constantly posting against the Satmar even though things were explained to you again and again and again.
I think it was you DWI (or somebody you agree with?) that was even stupid enough to post that the satmar rebbe was not a proper rabbi, and that he agreed with Arafat. When I pushed on that to quote from him, book/website, page, words, e.t.c. you failed to deliver. And then when posts got lost, you started your rant again. Very intellectually dishonest and provocative.
Chaim has opened our eyes to a new fact.. That SOME Satmar are like neturei karta, wanting israel destroyed. Supporting the arabs. And he said how he encountered them. This fact was not stated/known before..
Nevertheless.. This does not change the fact, that, as Chaim said. Not all Satmar are like this.
And certainly, the Satmar Rebbe was not pro the arabs destroying israel militarily. Or standing with our enemies..
Fortunately, I missed when this escalated to CF doing some sexually perverse poll about satmar ..
Look at Chaim's post. He is not against all satmar.
Neither was Rabbi Kahane.
I would expect disproportionate reactions when provoking people.. this is a kahanist forum!!
Firstly it was not me who had the argument about the satmar rabbi with you. From reading your post, I am pretty sure though that I would agree with the person attacking Satmar. I can tell you to read Vayoel Moshe and their you will see what the Satmar "Rabbi" thought about Israel. He wanted it destroyed immediately. Also, I suggest you read Chaims post in the thread CF started a couple of days ago. Chaim clearly explained what type of individual Yoel Teitelbaum was, a man who sold out all his followers to save himself. I really think most people here understand what Satmar is about now. The Satmar Rabbis sefer clearly wishes for Israel destruction so its sort of like saying their are peaceful muzzies. It is impossible cause their religion dictates otherwise. If the satmar rabbi wantd israel destroyed then we know the positions of his loyal followers. Also for the sake of accuracy, I am jewish. Also qq, check this out, it might help. http://jtf.org/forum_english/index.php?topic=21016.msg228760#msg228760
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Actually, q_q, DownwithIslam is Jewish. He's not as observant as Tzvi or Yacov, but he as a brother who is very religious. And he speaks Yiddish fluently.
Well that just makes it 10* worse!!
He should know better.
It's not a question of observance.. It's a question of knowledge. So little knowledge of judaism has been expressed by him, I didn't even know. He should not be posting ignorant and uninformed and refuted nonsense against satmar (or worse, the satmar rebbe being like arafat!!!!!!!!).
But the fact is.. Chaim has said now, that some and not all satmar, are like NK. And he gave good reason for saying that. I would be a bit suprised if DWI slandered all satmar again, since it would go against what Chaim said, and he values Chaim's opinion enormously - as we all do.
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Actually, q_q, DownwithIslam is Jewish. He's not as observant as Tzvi or Yacov, but he as a brother who is very religious. And he speaks Yiddish fluently.
Well that just makes it 10* worse!!
He should know better.
It's not a question of observance.. It's a question of knowledge. So little knowledge of judaism has been expressed by him, I didn't even know. He should not be posting ignorant and uninformed and refuted nonsense against satmar (or worse, the satmar rebbe being like arafat!!!!!!!!).
But the fact is.. Chaim has said now, that some and not all satmar, are like NK. And he gave good reason for saying that. I would be a bit suprised if DWI slandered all satmar again, since it would go against what Chaim said, and he values Chaim's opinion enormously - as we all do.
Of course I will condemn satmar completely. I am not saying that we can't find a Satmar who is not wishing for Israel destruction but I know the position of the Satmar Rabbi. Any Satmar Chasid who is not anti Israel is going against his rabbi who openly stated his opinions in this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vayoel_Moshe sefer. QQ, I think if you visit that link, you will quickly realize that you are mistaken on this issue.
Other arguments
1. Rabbi Teitelbaum refers to religious Zionism as a major desecration of G-d's name.
2. Blames Zionism for the Holocaust.[1]
3. Refers to Zionist leaders such as Theodor Herzl as 'heretics'.[2]
4. argues that any participation in the Israeli elections is one of the worst sins and halachically a Jew must rather be killed than vote.
5. blames all the bloodshed in the middle east on the Zionists.[2]
6. rules that it is forbidden to accept any money from Israeli government programs.
In case you are too lazy to go to that link, I posted some bits an pieces of it to entice you. Above are the positions of the satmar rabbi laid out in vayoel moshe. Please dont lecture me on who I should condemn or not. I think I can make my own decisions. I have not seen you come up with any facts but I have seen you throw out some false accusations like I am not jewish and that I had an argument with you in the past which I didnt
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Please refute what I have posted above in a respectful, factual manner so we can have a normal discussion without the emotion.
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Well.. the neturei karta couldn't care less about being treated like donkeys..
You are right. From the only NK protest I've seen, a lot of people were laughing at them.
The NKs were totally unfazed.
They just want to be able to keep the Torah, that's it.
Keep Torah? Allow me to be skeptical here...
Is stirring up the crowds against your People and your Homeland is keeping Torah?
It can't be...
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You are right archie. If you see my above post, I linked to proof of the satmar rabbis accusations that Israel is to blame for the holcaust and is responsible for all bloodshed in the middle east. I want to see someone argue with me on the facts. I am waiting for QQ's response.
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Oh well, I guess people can distinguish for themselves who brought the facts. The satmar defenders clearly dont have much factual information to defend themselves with. I am still waiting for QQ to directly address the points I made in reply 39.
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Well.. the neturei karta couldn't care less about being treated like donkeys..
You are right. From the only NK protest I've seen, a lot of people were laughing at them.
The NKs were totally unfazed.
They just want to be able to keep the Torah, that's it.
Keep Torah? Allow me to be skeptical here...
Is stirring up the crowds against your People and your Homeland is keeping Torah?
It can't be...
They think they're keeping Torah.. Obviously breaking shabbat to do an anti-israel protest(they think it is pikuach nefesh - saving life!!), is breaking the torah. But they want to keep it and think they are!
That's my point..
And my point was that they don't mind being treated like donkeys, and why they don't mind it.
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The issue is not only Satmer, bottom line is that some people were/are continually trashing any Rabbi/ Religious group who does not necessarily hold by the Kahanist way of learning the Torah (actualy its not even calling it the Kahanist way, because the Kahanist way can be found in his Religious Books, which are the opposite of what was stated and how it was approached. Its what they think is Kahanist). Can their be serious Halahic discussions on what is the right way to solve problems facing Jews, yess. BUT by their being statements by some demeaning Rabbinic figures and groups, writing disqusting sexual things agains't them and their followers, and always highlighting negative things on them (and twisting the facts, etc.) then that is evil, and Jew Hatred and should not be tollerated. This was disguested in the past, over and over again, and it is a Hillul Hashe-m, and DISQUSTING for the fact that it still continues.
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Actually, q_q, DownwithIslam is Jewish. He's not as observant as Tzvi or Yacov, but he as a brother who is very religious. And he speaks Yiddish fluently.
Well that just makes it 10* worse!!
He should know better.
It's not a question of observance.. It's a question of knowledge. So little knowledge of judaism has been expressed by him, I didn't even know. He should not be posting ignorant and uninformed and refuted nonsense against satmar (or worse, the satmar rebbe being like arafat!!!!!!!!).
But the fact is.. Chaim has said now, that some and not all satmar, are like NK. And he gave good reason for saying that. I would be a bit suprised if DWI slandered all satmar again, since it would go against what Chaim said, and he values Chaim's opinion enormously - as we all do.
Of course I will condemn satmar completely. I am not saying that we can't find a Satmar who is not wishing for Israel destruction but I know the position of the Satmar Rabbi. Any Satmar Chasid who is not anti Israel is going against his rabbi who openly stated his opinions in this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vayoel_Moshe sefer. QQ, I think if you visit that link, you will quickly realize that you are mistaken on this issue.
Other arguments
1. Rabbi Teitelbaum refers to religious Zionism as a major desecration of G-d's name.
2. Blames Zionism for the Holocaust.[1]
3. Refers to Zionist leaders such as Theodor Herzl as 'heretics'.[2]
4. argues that any participation in the Israeli elections is one of the worst sins and halachically a Jew must rather be killed than vote.
5. blames all the bloodshed in the middle east on the Zionists.[2]
6. rules that it is forbidden to accept any money from Israeli government programs.
In case you are too lazy to go to that link, I posted some bits an pieces of it to entice you. Above are the positions of the satmar rabbi laid out in vayoel moshe. Please dont lecture me on who I should condemn or not. I think I can make my own decisions. I have not seen you come up with any facts but I have seen you throw out some false accusations like I am not jewish and that I had an argument with you in the past which I didnt
You were saying he was like Arafat. And he was not a real Rabbi.
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Actually, q_q, DownwithIslam is Jewish. He's not as observant as Tzvi or Yacov, but he as a brother who is very religious. And he speaks Yiddish fluently.
Well that just makes it 10* worse!!
He should know better.
It's not a question of observance.. It's a question of knowledge. So little knowledge of judaism has been expressed by him, I didn't even know. He should not be posting ignorant and uninformed and refuted nonsense against satmar (or worse, the satmar rebbe being like arafat!!!!!!!!).
But the fact is.. Chaim has said now, that some and not all satmar, are like NK. And he gave good reason for saying that. I would be a bit suprised if DWI slandered all satmar again, since it would go against what Chaim said, and he values Chaim's opinion enormously - as we all do.
Of course I will condemn satmar completely. I am not saying that we can't find a Satmar who is not wishing for Israel destruction but I know the position of the Satmar Rabbi. Any Satmar Chasid who is not anti Israel is going against his rabbi who openly stated his opinions in this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vayoel_Moshe sefer. QQ, I think if you visit that link, you will quickly realize that you are mistaken on this issue.
Other arguments
1. Rabbi Teitelbaum refers to religious Zionism as a major desecration of G-d's name.
2. Blames Zionism for the Holocaust.[1]
3. Refers to Zionist leaders such as Theodor Herzl as 'heretics'.[2]
4. argues that any participation in the Israeli elections is one of the worst sins and halachically a Jew must rather be killed than vote.
5. blames all the bloodshed in the middle east on the Zionists.[2]
6. rules that it is forbidden to accept any money from Israeli government programs.
In case you are too lazy to go to that link, I posted some bits an pieces of it to entice you. Above are the positions of the satmar rabbi laid out in vayoel moshe. Please dont lecture me on who I should condemn or not. I think I can make my own decisions. I have not seen you come up with any facts but I have seen you throw out some false accusations like I am not jewish and that I had an argument with you in the past which I didnt
You were saying he was like Arafat. And he was not a real Rabbi.
Ok now I am getting pissed at you because you are outright lying and that I wont stand for. Ok now for you to have any crdibility in light of the fact that you cannot address my above post, please give everyone here the direct link to where I said he was like arafat. I am waiting. I should add that now that you keep on quoting me falsely that I said he was like arafat, it got me thinking and I can name numerous similarities between yassir arafat and yoel teitelbaums ideologies. Also, their is certainly grounds to say that he was not a real rabbi becuase a real rabbi would not endanger lives of the millions of jews living in israel and yoel did so that is a debate in and of itself. But staying on track, I can assure you that you wont be able to produce the thread where I said that yoel teitelbaum is like arafat because I never said it.
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By the way, when a Rabbi says "inflammitary" things they are not always to be taken literaly. When the Satmer Rabbi was speaking it was before Israel was established. And for the record in many ways he and other Rabbinic figures were right in the facts of the spiritual destruction that the state has made, BUT that does not mean that now we join NK, and support killing Jews. The opposite the right way would be to work within the state and to get ridd of its leaders.
These are issues that are deep, and its often taken at face value, where you have the ignorant making a mocery out of everything they hear, because it does not fitt into their frame of mind, and their mentality of how things should be.
Also even if taking something good, for example keeping the Land of Israel in Jewish hands, it could become something bad with people Idolizing that and automaticaly cursing, making fun of, etc. of anyone who might think other wise, and when somethings are more important than that. It is a perversion of a mitzva.
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and always highlighting negative things on them (and twisting the facts, etc.) then that is evil, and Jew Hatred and should not be tollerated. This was disguested in the past, over and over again, and it is a Hillul Hashem, and DISQUSTING for the fact that it still continues.
That a very nice public apology Tzvi.
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Actually, q_q, DownwithIslam is Jewish. He's not as observant as Tzvi or Yacov, but he as a brother who is very religious. And he speaks Yiddish fluently.
Well that just makes it 10* worse!!
He should know better.
It's not a question of observance.. It's a question of knowledge. So little knowledge of judaism has been expressed by him, I didn't even know. He should not be posting ignorant and uninformed and refuted nonsense against satmar (or worse, the satmar rebbe being like arafat!!!!!!!!).
But the fact is.. Chaim has said now, that some and not all satmar, are like NK. And he gave good reason for saying that. I would be a bit suprised if DWI slandered all satmar again, since it would go against what Chaim said, and he values Chaim's opinion enormously - as we all do.
Of course I will condemn satmar completely. I am not saying that we can't find a Satmar who is not wishing for Israel destruction but I know the position of the Satmar Rabbi. Any Satmar Chasid who is not anti Israel is going against his rabbi who openly stated his opinions in this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vayoel_Moshe sefer. QQ, I think if you visit that link, you will quickly realize that you are mistaken on this issue.
Other arguments
1. Rabbi Teitelbaum refers to religious Zionism as a major desecration of G-d's name.
2. Blames Zionism for the Holocaust.[1]
3. Refers to Zionist leaders such as Theodor Herzl as 'heretics'.[2]
4. argues that any participation in the Israeli elections is one of the worst sins and halachically a Jew must rather be killed than vote.
5. blames all the bloodshed in the middle east on the Zionists.[2]
6. rules that it is forbidden to accept any money from Israeli government programs.
In case you are too lazy to go to that link, I posted some bits an pieces of it to entice you. Above are the positions of the satmar rabbi laid out in vayoel moshe. Please dont lecture me on who I should condemn or not. I think I can make my own decisions. I have not seen you come up with any facts but I have seen you throw out some false accusations like I am not jewish and that I had an argument with you in the past which I didnt
You were saying he was like Arafat. And he was not a real Rabbi.
Ok now I am getting pissed at you because you are outright lying and that I wont stand for. Ok now for you to have any crdibility in light of the fact that you cannot address my above post, please give everyone here the direct link to where I said he was like arafat. I am waiting. I should add that now that you keep on quoting me falsely that I said he was like arafat, it got me thinking and I can name numerous similarities between yassir arafat and yoel teitelbaums ideologies. Also, their is certainly grounds to say that he was not a real rabbi becuase a real rabbi would not endanger lives of the millions of jews living in israel and yoel did so that is a debate in and of itself. But staying on track, I can assure you that you wont be able to produce the thread where I said that yoel teitelbaum is like arafat because I never said it.
you just did :::D
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and always highlighting negative things on them (and twisting the facts, etc.) then that is evil, and Jew Hatred and should not be tollerated. This was disguested in the past, over and over again, and it is a Hillul Hashem, and DISQUSTING for the fact that it still continues.
That a very nice public apology Tzvi.
??? I dont know why you attacked me (even before), I dont care, but that was not an aplogy, nor do I owe them 1.
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By the way, when a Rabbi says "inflammitary" things they are not always to be taken literaly. When the Satmer Rabbi was speaking it was before Israel was established. And for the record in many ways he and other Rabbinic figures were right in the facts of the spiritual destruction that the state has made, BUT that does not mean that now we join NK, and support killing Jews. The opposite the right way would be to work within the state and to get ridd of its leaders.
These are issues that are deep, and its often taken at face value, where you have the ignorant making a mocery out of everything they hear, because it does not fitt into their frame of mind, and their mentality of how things should be.
Also even if taking something good, for example keeping the Land of Israel in Jewish hands, it could become something bad with people Idolizing that and automaticaly cursing, making fun of, etc. of anyone who might think other wise, and when somethings are more important than that. It is a perversion of a mitzva.
Tzvi, you are wrong once again. I will not allow fabrications so I will quickly point out that vayoel moshe was written in 1958, post holocaust and after the creation of Israel. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vayoel_Moshe
In it Yoel Teitelbaum writes
Other arguments
1. Rabbi Teitelbaum refers to religious Zionism as a major desecration of G-d's name.
2. Blames Zionism for the Holocaust.[1]
3. Refers to Zionist leaders such as Theodor Herzl as 'heretics'.[2]
4. argues that any participation in the Israeli elections is one of the worst sins and halachically a Jew must rather be killed than vote.
5. blames all the bloodshed in the middle east on the Zionists.[2]
6. rules that it is forbidden to accept any money from Israeli government programs.
He blamed Israel for the holocaust and blamed it for all bloodshed in the middle east. That means he supported the muslims and said that the israeli jews were the ones killing arabs. Dont you see how you are making no sense in defending this rabbi? Please refute what I just said. And I am still waiting for QQ to come up with that link. After accusing me of something, I would hope he could back it up.
Tzvi, please do more research before you emit inaccuracies. I guess if Rabbi Mizrachi doesnt say it, you dont know it.
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At least what he said about Herzl was true.
I agree with that yackov but unfortunately, that might of been the only true statement in that whole book. Now lets allow tzvi and QQ to refute what I wrote. Tzvi was already proven wrong in saying that the satmar said all this before the creation of Israel when in fact vayoel moshe was written betweek 1958 and 1961. Oh well
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and always highlighting negative things on them (and twisting the facts, etc.) then that is evil, and Jew Hatred and should not be tollerated. This was disguested in the past, over and over again, and it is a Hillul Hashem, and DISQUSTING for the fact that it still continues.
That a very nice public apology Tzvi.
??? I dont know why you attacked me (even before), I dont care, but that was not an aplogy, nor do I owe them 1.
You owe me an apology for calling me an idiot and saying that "I am below your stature" and you owe chaimfan an apology for saying that he is"my mexican friend" and for calling him a "goy" which is not a bad word but you used it to demean him. It is healthy to apologize sometimes.
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Wikipedia? Who is that written by? Satmer people do not go on the Internet. It was probably written by secular Israeli, they always try to discredite Religious and "Haredi" Jews. You would have to learn things directly from the Sefarim, and bring up the things in context. I am not soo familiar with their writings, but it would take a lot more then something written from wikipedia, or you to discredite a whole group of Religious Jews. + the fact that a lot of the same spinn used agains't them was used on almost all Rabbinic figures in the last 100 years, by those who consciously or subconsciously go agains't the "Ultra-Orthodox" just because they (the Ultra...") do not accept the leaders and the way the state is. Or the fact that they keep mitzvot pisses off and shows how much losers those who go agains't Hashe-m are.
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Wikipedia? Who is that written by? Satmer people do not go on the Internet. It was probably written by secular Israeli, they always try to discredite Religious and "Haredi" Jews. You would have to learn things directly from the Sefarim, and bring up the things in context. I am not soo familiar with their writings, but it would take a lot more then something written from wikipedia, or you to discredite a whole group of Religious Jews. + the fact that a lot of the same spinn used agains't them was used on almost all Rabbinic figures in the last 100 years, by those who consciously or subconsciously go agains't the "Ultra-Orthodox" just because they (the Ultra...") do not accept the leaders and the way the state is. Or the fact that they keep mitzvot pisses off and shows how much losers those who go agains't Hashem are.
Dont play that game. I can tell you from reading the sefer in yiddish that the wikipedia article is in fact written by someone who is sympathetic towards satmar. The rabbi did in fact say
Other arguments
1. Rabbi Teitelbaum refers to religious Zionism as a major desecration of G-d's name.
2. Blames Zionism for the Holocaust.[1]
3. Refers to Zionist leaders such as Theodor Herzl as 'heretics'.[2]
4. argues that any participation in the Israeli elections is one of the worst sins and halachically a Jew must rather be killed than vote.
5. blames all the bloodshed in the middle east on the Zionists.[2]
6. rules that it is forbidden to accept any money from Israeli government programs.
all after the creation of the state of israel. I think people can judge for themselves now.
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and always highlighting negative things on them (and twisting the facts, etc.) then that is evil, and Jew Hatred and should not be tollerated. This was disguested in the past, over and over again, and it is a Hillul Hashem, and DISQUSTING for the fact that it still continues.
That a very nice public apology Tzvi.
??? I dont know why you attacked me (even before), I dont care, but that was not an aplogy, nor do I owe them 1.
You owe me an apology for calling me an idiot and saying that "I am below your stature" and you owe chaimfan an apology for saying that he is"my mexican friend" and for calling him a "goy" which is not a bad word but you used it to demean him. It is healthy to apologize sometimes.
Man up Tzvi.
Chaim did ask you to apologize to DWI and CF.
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How about you first apoligize for writing agains't the hundreds of thousands of Jews living in Williamsburg, Lakewood, and other places that you have written negative innacuracies in the past. Also please apoligize for calling Rabbis like Rav Ovadia Yosef Shlita all the filthy negatice nicknames you give him.
Also go to Rav Aron Kutlers grave and opoligize for what you said about him. And theirs much much more you need to do.
Also about Rav Mizrachi- He is a great speaker, but I do not only learn from him, perhaps it would be good for you to learn some Torah from a Rabbi and learn something useful. You say you agree and follow Rav Kahane- at least go learn from his Sefer Ore Harayon, and learn something useful (im sure it will change you).
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DWI, the thrust of my argument against you, was that - as I said,
Somebody(and I asked if it was you or somebody you agree with), said that the satmar rebbe was like arafat, and that he was not a real rabbi.. And I challenged him to back that up.
Those posts were lost..
I am willing to accept that it wasn't you. You clearly are not making those arguments yourself here. So there really isn't disagreement..
I see you made a post saying it wasn't you.. Which I saw. But since it is such a long thread.. And you then posted a big response, quoting my question to you about arafat, and not denying it. And it's late.. So I forgot about and didn't see that little post in the mass of posts, where you said you deny it.
No point making a long post defending some position.. A position that was not what I accused you of.
And BTW.. the first post where I mentioned it, it was not as an accusation, but as a question.
Anyhow, I see you didn't claim the satmar rebbe was not a rabbi, or that he was like arafat. So what's the argument?
I would even say that the flag burning - though I know the reasoning - I would say it is not derived from the torah.. Not a Torah position. But their idea that there should be no state, is a Torah position - a mistaken one probably, but a Torah position.
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and always highlighting negative things on them (and twisting the facts, etc.) then that is evil, and Jew Hatred and should not be tollerated. This was disguested in the past, over and over again, and it is a Hillul Hashem, and DISQUSTING for the fact that it still continues.
That a very nice public apology Tzvi.
??? I dont know why you attacked me (even before), I dont care, but that was not an aplogy, nor do I owe them 1.
You owe me an apology for calling me an idiot and saying that "I am below your stature" and you owe chaimfan an apology for saying that he is"my mexican friend" and for calling him a "goy" which is not a bad word but you used it to demean him. It is healthy to apologize sometimes.
Man up Tzvi.
Chaim did ask you to apologize to DWI and CF.
Archie he wont as he claims to be expressing "holy boldness."
Check out these two links archie.
http://jtf.org/forum_english/index.php?topic=21016.msg228715#msg228715
http://jtf.org/forum_english/index.php?topic=21016.msg228658#msg228658
http://jtf.org/forum_english/index.php?topic=21016.msg228715#msg228715 (look for the mexican friend line)
The only reason I am persuing this even though we should be concentrating on other things is because what tzvi is trying to shove down our thorats here is exactly the type of retoric that is spewed on a daily basis on the splinters. I am trying to prevent that type of language towards righteous people on this forum. Their is no place for it here. It is clear that tzvi has absolutely no proof or logical reason in his support for satmar. I think archie and others can see that he cannot refute anything I said. He still hasnt explained how the rabbi could blame israel for the bloodshed in the middle east in the year 1961.
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How about you first apoligize for writing agains't the hundreds of thousands of Jews living in Williamsburg, Lakewood, and other places that you have written negative innacuracies in the past. Also please apoligize for calling Rabbis like Rav Ovadia Yosef Shlita all the filthy negatice nicknames you give him.
Also go to Rav Aron Kutlers grave and opoligize for what you said about him. And theirs much much more you need to do.
Also about Rav Mizrachi- He is a great speaker, but I do not only learn from him, perhaps it would be good for you to learn some Torah from a Rabbi and learn something useful. You say you agree and follow Rav Kahane- at least go learn from his Sefer Ore Harayon, and learn something useful (im sure it will change you).
You are not making sense.. I just proved how my strong language towards satmar is not slander and I backed it up with proof of what their rabbi stood for. You are wrong because you said that the satmar rabbi perpetrated all his attacks pre 1948 when I just proved that he wrote his hate filled sefer btween 1958 and 1961. And if you want to start digging deep, you owe the entire worldwide chabad community a massive apology for your repeated attacks on them a few months back. Unlike my criticisms which are always backed up by the facts, you attacked chabad for no reason at all and said they were not jewish.
And as far as QQ is concerned, I have regained respect for you cause at least you are able to admit that you were wrong about me saying those things. I appreciate your honesty.
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By the way, when a Rabbi says "inflammitary" things they are not always to be taken literaly. When the Satmer Rabbi was speaking it was before Israel was established.
no, the satmar position, is very strongly, no state, no co-operation with it..
the agudas yisroel position is , well now we have one we can't do anything about it! But that's not satmar.
Regarding the holocaust, that DWI mentioned.. and the satmar position on it.
And agudas yisroel types share many beliefs with satmar.. I have even heard an anti-zionist non satmar, say something very sick.. So some might want to skip past the end of this paragraph. He said that Zionism was jewish national socialism, and so as a punishment, G-d responded measure for measure, with (German) national socialism.
Quite opposite to a Kahanist view, which would be that the jews suffered the holocaust, because they did not go to israel. I read on the forum.. somebody said to kahane "Are you saying it was a punishment". Rabbi Kahane said "was it a blessing?"
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By the way, when a Rabbi says "inflammitary" things they are not always to be taken literaly. When the Satmer Rabbi was speaking it was before Israel was established.
no, the satmar position, is very strongly, no state, no co-operation with it..
the agudas yisroel position is , well now we have one we can't do anything about it! But that's not satmar.
Regarding the holocaust, that DWI mentioned.. and the satmar position on it.
And agudas yisroel types share many beliefs with satmar.. I have even heard an anti-zionist non satmar, say something very sick.. So some might want to skip past the end of this paragraph. He said that Zionism was jewish national socialism, and so as a punishment, G-d responded measure for measure, with (German) national socialism.
Quite opposite to a Kahanist view, which would be that the jews suffered the holocaust, because they did not go to israel. I read on the forum.. somebody said to kahane "Are you saying it was a punishment". Rabbi Kahane said "was it a blessing?"
I agree with you on this. Tzvi is making the same style defense of satmar that muzzies make for the koran. When you read something, of course it should be read literally. Some things are quite clear as is the satmar rabbis hatred for israel as evidenced by his disgusting sefer.
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How about you first apoligize for writing agains't the hundreds of thousands of Jews living in Williamsburg, Lakewood, and other places that you have written negative innacuracies in the past. Also please apoligize for calling Rabbis like Rav Ovadia Yosef Shlita all the filthy negatice nicknames you give him.
Also go to Rav Aron Kutlers grave and opoligize for what you said about him. And theirs much much more you need to do.
Also about Rav Mizrachi- He is a great speaker, but I do not only learn from him, perhaps it would be good for you to learn some Torah from a Rabbi and learn something useful. You say you agree and follow Rav Kahane- at least go learn from his Sefer Ore Harayon, and learn something useful (im sure it will change you).
You are not making sense.. I just proved how my strong language towards satmar is not slander and I backed it up with proof of what their rabbi stood for. You are wrong because you said that the satmar rabbi perpetrated all his attacks pre 1948 when I just proved that he wrote his hate filled sefer btween 1958 and 1961. And if you want to start digging deep, you owe the entire worldwide chabad community a massive apology for your repeated attacks on them a few months back. Unlike my criticisms which are always backed up by the facts, you attacked chabad for no reason at all and said they were not jewish.
And as far as QQ is concerned, I have regained respect for you cause at least you are able to admit that you were wrong about me saying those things. I appreciate your honesty.
This discussion is not only about Satmer and if they have the right position or not (And I do not hold of their position) its the fact that you refer to Jews in that way, constantly. And I am stll waiting for that public apology to those Rabbis mentioned and to those Jewish groups mentioned.
And dont spinn this to Chabad, I never brought it up again, and in a discussion that some were having- in a Halahic way I brought some things that was agains't Chabad messianism, And I did not say they are not Jewish, you lier. I just brought an article from Israel613.com in the middle of a discussion about that topoc. Dont do your usual spinn ::)
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How about you first apoligize for writing agains't the hundreds of thousands of Jews living in Williamsburg, Lakewood, and other places that you have written negative innacuracies in the past. Also please apoligize for calling Rabbis like Rav Ovadia Yosef Shlita all the filthy negatice nicknames you give him.
Also go to Rav Aron Kutlers grave and opoligize for what you said about him. And theirs much much more you need to do.
Also about Rav Mizrachi- He is a great speaker, but I do not only learn from him, perhaps it would be good for you to learn some Torah from a Rabbi and learn something useful. You say you agree and follow Rav Kahane- at least go learn from his Sefer Ore Harayon, and learn something useful (im sure it will change you).
You are not making sense.. I just proved how my strong language towards satmar is not slander and I backed it up with proof of what their rabbi stood for. You are wrong because you said that the satmar rabbi perpetrated all his attacks pre 1948 when I just proved that he wrote his hate filled sefer btween 1958 and 1961. And if you want to start digging deep, you owe the entire worldwide chabad community a massive apology for your repeated attacks on them a few months back. Unlike my criticisms which are always backed up by the facts, you attacked chabad for no reason at all and said they were not jewish.
And as far as QQ is concerned, I have regained respect for you cause at least you are able to admit that you were wrong about me saying those things. I appreciate your honesty.
This discussion is not only about Satmer and if they have the right position or not (And I do not hold of their position) its the fact that you refer to Jews in that way, constantly. And I am stll waiting for that public apology to those Rabbis mentioned and to those Jewish groups mentioned.
And dont spinn this to Chabad, I never brought it up again, and in a discussion that some were having- in a Halahic way I brought some things that was agains't Chabad messianism, And I did not say they are not Jewish, you lier. I just brought an article from Israel613.com in the middle of a discussion about that topoc. Dont do your usual spinn ::)
So I see, you are allowed to slander lubavitch but I cant wisper a criticsm about ovadia yosef and satmar? Are you serious. And as far as lakewood is concerned, I are you aware that rabbi aharon kotler publicly stated that lubavitchers are not jewish and when the lubavitcher rebbes father came to america, rabbi kotler bought his followers to "greet" him with a viscous public protest in which they belittled a man who was tortured for not massering on fellow jews. The irony is that kotler hated satmar too but that is for another discussion. Did you know that kotler was a fervent hater of Israel but he was against public support for the arabs which seperated him from the others. He didnt actively fight israel like satmar but he publicly stated his hatred for the state.
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And as far as QQ is concerned, I have regained respect for you cause at least you are able to admit that you were wrong about me saying those things. I appreciate your honesty.
Thank you
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How about you first apoligize for writing agains't the hundreds of thousands of Jews living in Williamsburg, Lakewood, and other places that you have written negative innacuracies in the past. Also please apoligize for calling Rabbis like Rav Ovadia Yosef Shlita all the filthy negatice nicknames you give him.
Also go to Rav Aron Kutlers grave and opoligize for what you said about him. And theirs much much more you need to do.
Also about Rav Mizrachi- He is a great speaker, but I do not only learn from him, perhaps it would be good for you to learn some Torah from a Rabbi and learn something useful. You say you agree and follow Rav Kahane- at least go learn from his Sefer Ore Harayon, and learn something useful (im sure it will change you).
You are not making sense.. I just proved how my strong language towards satmar is not slander and I backed it up with proof of what their rabbi stood for. You are wrong because you said that the satmar rabbi perpetrated all his attacks pre 1948 when I just proved that he wrote his hate filled sefer btween 1958 and 1961. And if you want to start digging deep, you owe the entire worldwide chabad community a massive apology for your repeated attacks on them a few months back. Unlike my criticisms which are always backed up by the facts, you attacked chabad for no reason at all and said they were not jewish.
And as far as QQ is concerned, I have regained respect for you cause at least you are able to admit that you were wrong about me saying those things. I appreciate your honesty.
This discussion is not only about Satmer and if they have the right position or not (And I do not hold of their position) its the fact that you refer to Jews in that way, constantly. And I am stll waiting for that public apology to those Rabbis mentioned and to those Jewish groups mentioned.
And dont spinn this to Chabad, I never brought it up again, and in a discussion that some were having- in a Halahic way I brought some things that was agains't Chabad messianism, And I did not say they are not Jewish, you lier. I just brought an article from Israel613.com in the middle of a discussion about that topoc. Dont do your usual spinn ::)
So I see, you are allowed to slander lubavitch but I cant wisper a criticsm about ovadia yosef and satmar? Are you serious. And as far as lakewood is concerned, I are you aware that rabbi aharon kotler publicly stated that lubavitchers are not jewish and when the lubavitcher rebbes father came to america, rabbi kotler bought his followers to "greet" him with a viscous public protest in which they belittled a man who was tortured for not massering on fellow jews. The irony is that kotler hated satmar too but that is for another discussion. Did you know that kotler was a fervent hater of Israel but he was against public support for the arabs which seperated him from the others. He didnt actively fight israel like satmar but he publicly stated his hatred for the state.
See what I mean. The Gedolim have their fights, and they say things in their own way. The Great Rav Nachman from Breslev says that the simple Jews should stay away from the arguments between the Gedolim (and those who defile the brit- Brit Tefillin, Shabb-t even more soo), and they would not be able to understand.
Just because someone said things agains't Israel does not mean anything. I would probably beat that almost all Rabbis (that count) said things agains't Israel, but one has to know why they said it and for what purpose. For example those who were very religious had to hear from Rabbis agains't the secular entity, in order to be warned agaisn't getting too close to "their brethren", even though at the same time it is a Mitzva to get Jews religious and help them out, it is also bad a lot of times for the community to get too close to other communities and get its children to adapt the alien values of others. If this was not done, then their wouldn't be a Jewish nation today. Because the Jews would embrace everyone and every idea, (even though it has happened to a large degree).
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Chaim did ask you [Tzvi] to apologize to DWI and CF.
Give Chaim some credit.. I just checked what he said.. He advised Tzvi, urged Tzvi to apologise.. For his(Tzvi's) sake..
You make it sound like Chaim ordered him.. And then you told Tzvi to Man Up and apologise!! As if following an order from another man is manning up!! Chaim didn't tell him or ask him.. He didn't say it like that at all!!
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How about you first apoligize for writing agains't the hundreds of thousands of Jews living in Williamsburg, Lakewood, and other places that you have written negative innacuracies in the past. Also please apoligize for calling Rabbis like Rav Ovadia Yosef Shlita all the filthy negatice nicknames you give him.
Also go to Rav Aron Kutlers grave and opoligize for what you said about him. And theirs much much more you need to do.
Also about Rav Mizrachi- He is a great speaker, but I do not only learn from him, perhaps it would be good for you to learn some Torah from a Rabbi and learn something useful. You say you agree and follow Rav Kahane- at least go learn from his Sefer Ore Harayon, and learn something useful (im sure it will change you).
You are not making sense.. I just proved how my strong language towards satmar is not slander and I backed it up with proof of what their rabbi stood for. You are wrong because you said that the satmar rabbi perpetrated all his attacks pre 1948 when I just proved that he wrote his hate filled sefer btween 1958 and 1961. And if you want to start digging deep, you owe the entire worldwide chabad community a massive apology for your repeated attacks on them a few months back. Unlike my criticisms which are always backed up by the facts, you attacked chabad for no reason at all and said they were not jewish.
And as far as QQ is concerned, I have regained respect for you cause at least you are able to admit that you were wrong about me saying those things. I appreciate your honesty.
This discussion is not only about Satmer and if they have the right position or not (And I do not hold of their position) its the fact that you refer to Jews in that way, constantly. And I am stll waiting for that public apology to those Rabbis mentioned and to those Jewish groups mentioned.
And dont spinn this to Chabad, I never brought it up again, and in a discussion that some were having- in a Halahic way I brought some things that was agains't Chabad messianism, And I did not say they are not Jewish, you lier. I just brought an article from Israel613.com in the middle of a discussion about that topoc. Dont do your usual spinn ::)
So I see, you are allowed to slander lubavitch but I cant wisper a criticsm about ovadia yosef and satmar? Are you serious. And as far as lakewood is concerned, I are you aware that rabbi aharon kotler publicly stated that lubavitchers are not jewish and when the lubavitcher rebbes father came to america, rabbi kotler bought his followers to "greet" him with a viscous public protest in which they belittled a man who was tortured for not massering on fellow jews. The irony is that kotler hated satmar too but that is for another discussion. Did you know that kotler was a fervent hater of Israel but he was against public support for the arabs which seperated him from the others. He didnt actively fight israel like satmar but he publicly stated his hatred for the state.
See what I mean. The Gedolim have their fights, and they say things in their own way. The Great Rav Nachman from Breslev says that the simple Jews should stay away from the arguments between the Gedolim (and those who defile the brit- Brit Tefillin, Shabbat even more soo), and they would not be able to understand.
Just because someone said things agains't Israel does not mean anything. I would probably beat that almost all Rabbis (that count) said things agains't Israel, but one has to know why they said it and for what purpose. For example those who were very religious had to hear from Rabbis agains't the secular entity, in order to be warned agaisn't getting too close to "their brethren", even though at the same time it is a Mitzva to get Jews religious and help them out, it is also bad a lot of times for the community to get too close to other communities and get its children to adapt the alien values of others. If this was not done, then their wouldn't be a Jewish nation today. Because
the Jews would embrace everyone and every idea, (even though it has happened to a large degree).
Now tzvi, can you explain to everyone how the hell your last post had anything to do with anything we have been discussing. Did it explain the sick behavior of the satmars or did it explain why you attacked chabad or did it explain why kotler attacked chabad or did it explain why kotler hated israel or did it explain why you said that the satmar rabbi only made his attacks pre 1948 when in fact they were not made until 1958. I didnt think so.
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and always highlighting negative things on them (and twisting the facts, etc.) then that is evil, and Jew Hatred and should not be tollerated. This was disguested in the past, over and over again, and it is a Hillul Hashem, and DISQUSTING for the fact that it still continues.
That a very nice public apology Tzvi.
??? I dont know why you attacked me (even before), I dont care, but that was not an aplogy, nor do I owe them 1.
You owe me an apology for calling me an idiot and saying that "I am below your stature" and you owe chaimfan an apology for saying that he is"my mexican friend" and for calling him a "goy" which is not a bad word but you used it to demean him. It is healthy to apologize sometimes.
Man up Tzvi.
Chaim did ask you to apologize to DWI and CF.
Archie, thank you so much for your support in fighting for the truth. It means a lot to me.
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Tzvi, Chaim closed this subject once and for all. Since you do not agree with him, why do you stick around here? If you would stick to forums populated with fellow cultists like Revava and "Kahane".org, you would not see regular, average Jews and be so offended. Chaim has challenged you and your friend Dominater time and time again to prove your claims that the majority of rabbis agree with you, and you have never delivered. Get over it--the majority of JTFers detest cults.
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And this is one time that I want one of my threads to be locked. It's time to end this [censored] match now.
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Tzvi, Chaim closed this subject once and for all. Since you do not agree with him, why do you stick around here? If you would stick to forums populated with fellow cultists like Revava and "Kahane".org, you would not see regular, average Jews and be so offended. Chaim has challenged you and your friend Dominater time and time again to prove your claims that the majority of rabbis agree with you, and you have never delivered. Get over it--the majority of JTFers detest cults.
Of course Chaimfan had put what I was thinking in such eloquent words. Tzvi has been unable to refute with facts anything I have written in this thread. His support of the satmar cult is frightening and defies logic. His positions are closer to islam than to judaism or kahanism. The scariest part is that he is never able to admit defeat.
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Tzvi,
Are you defending the Satmar? (maybe just as a forgiving gesture) Maybe you feel they are brothers that can be rehabilitated....... You're certainly not defending their actions?
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See what I mean. The Gedolim have their fights, and they say things in their own way. The Great Rav Nachman from Breslev says that the simple Jews should stay away from the arguments between the Gedolim (and those who defile the brit- Brit Tefillin, Shabbat even more soo), and they would not be able to understand.
if it were the case, that you put rabbis on that high level, that we cannot understand their arguments.
Then that is a very good mechanism for allowing them to maintain their control, and push a cult like mentality.
I did read a book of chassidic stories that really imbued that mentality.. Of Gedolim being rude to each other for some reason relevant to the celestian spheres.. As soon as one of them stopped being rude to the other, the other died. That was a book of chassidic stories.. As they say "If you believe them all, of you believe nonem then you're are fool" But the point of these kind of stories is clear.. Don't question the gedolim, or Rebbe, they or he is on a higher level of thinking and spirituality.
I have seen something rather disturbing.. where a rabbi behaved in a way he shouldn't have towards a man in the congregation, not in a way that would make the newspaper, but just going way over the line.. And I looked around and saw the mentality of the people watching, staring daggers at the man as if to say subliminally "Do what the good rabbi says". That was a particularly weird synagogue.. I've never seen anything like that since. A normal shul/synagogue is one where some in the community don't like the rabbi, and some do. If everybody loves him, then it's suspicious..
I don't want to discuss the situation, suffice it to say, I have mentioned it to many people, and they agree it was weird, spooky, and really indefensible, and that I was right in my analysis..
That was a situation of a rabbi acts like a Rebbe, really abusing his power. Of course, Rebbes acting like Rebbes isn't as bad! But it's still problematic. There is no basis for such authority in the talmud. And these rabbis are not greater than talmudic rabbis.
Just because someone said things agains't Israel does not mean anything. I would probably beat that almost all Rabbis (that count) said things agains't Israel, but one has to know why they said it and for what purpose. For example those who were very religious had to hear from Rabbis agains't the secular entity, in order to be warned agaisn't getting too close to "their brethren", even though at the same time it is a Mitzva to get Jews religious and help them out, it is also bad a lot of times for the community to get too close to other communities and get its children to adapt the alien values of others. If this was not done, then their wouldn't be a Jewish nation today. Because the Jews would embrace everyone and every idea, (even though it has happened to a large degree).
This is really rabbis I don't like, playing psychiatrist.. Saying whatever they want just to emphasise something.
Youth rabbis will tell kids "If you do this, you get this carrott" And it works.. because most kids are dumb or immature.
And in mad cases, sometimes they threaten.. With
I have only heard of it once, though I am not in charedi circles
One rabbi I heard of, said something along the lines of "If you miss [he mentioned a mitzva here] then you're not jewish".
Complete nonsense of course, but it scared his students so much, that they all do the mitzva without fail.. Whereas others miss it often.
I personally, am not in favour of this dishonest manpiulative nonsense.
This making people do more mitzvot or be more religious by nook or crook..
There was actually an article in the jewish tribune, either this year or last year, that said it is ok to lie to people in kiruv(outreach!!). I don't know about the charedim, but fortunately, the big outreach organisations in britain (ohr, aish) don't do that, they are very intellectually honest, and even have their arguments up and in some cases have published responses from people that believe they are wrong.
But these mentalities do exist.. And it's dangerous.
I can well believe that the atmar rebbe hid information from his followesr that could have saved them.. Infact,,
here is a link, excuse the link's name
http://failedmessiah.typepad.com/failed_messiahcom/2008/05/the-satmar-rebb.html
it has a short article about the satmar rebbe and this incident, and mentions a book called "Kasztner's Train" by Anna porter. I will have to read these things, perfidy, and the rest.. But I am aware of it.. I was less aware of the story regarding the satmar
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Tzvi is defending a yoel teitelbaum who in exchange for saving his own tuchis on the kastner train, convinced his followers to go to aushwitz. This is what tzvi is defending. Of course this same rabbi hated israel, blamed israel for all the bloodshed in the middle east, in 1961 blamed israel for the holocaust. It seems tzvi will defend every informer under the sun.
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Tzvi,
Are you defending the Satmar? (maybe just as a forgiving gesture) Maybe you feel they are brothers that can be rehabilitated....... You're certainly not defending their actions?
Italianzionist, I know its hard to believe but he is indeed defending them and called everyone who criticised them idiots. I know this is hard for a super righteous gentile like yourself to understand but as you see here, some jews act in very strange ways. Tzvi seems to share many of the same opinions as woody allen and the hollywood kikes. What a shame.
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Tzvi,
Are you defending the Satmar? (maybe just as a forgiving gesture) Maybe you feel they are brothers that can be rehabilitated....... You're certainly not defending their actions?
I am not defending the actions of the NK types, who side with arabs, but not all Satmer are evil. And I do believe that the anti-zionist position is a valid position, at a point I didn't (and I thought it was only Askenazi position), but even the Ben Ish Chai had that position, (I just read recently that he was for the land of Israel, but said not to push the Geula process by fighting the arabs, etc.- but I have my own opinion of that and how it doesn't really mean that (its somewhat deep and hard to explain in a few sentences).
But just because they have a position doesn't mean bashing them and referring allways negativly towards them is valid. They do have Talmidei Hachamim who should be respected, and their opinions are brought in lectures and other things (like books, even with those who disagree with them).
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Tzvi,
Are you defending the Satmar? (maybe just as a forgiving gesture) Maybe you feel they are brothers that can be rehabilitated....... You're certainly not defending their actions?
And I do believe that the anti-zionist position is a valid position
Haha. Wow! Unbelievable. :o
What are you doing here on this forum pal?
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Tzvi,
Are you defending the Satmar? (maybe just as a forgiving gesture) Maybe you feel they are brothers that can be rehabilitated....... You're certainly not defending their actions?
I am not defending the actions of the NK types, who side with arabs, but not all Satmer are evil. And I do believe that the anti-zionist position is a valid position, at a point I didn't (and I thought it was only Askenazi position), but even the Ben Ish Chai had that position, (I just read recently that he was for the land of Israel, but said not to push the Geula process by fighting the arabs, etc.- but I have my own opinion of that and how it doesn't really mean that (its somewhat deep and hard to explain in a few sentences).
But just because they have a position doesn't mean bashing them and referring allways negativly towards them is valid. They do have Talmidei Hachamim who should be respected, and their opinions are brought in lectures and other things (like books, even with those who disagree with them).
Italianzionist, disregard everything tzvi said. I already explained numerous times in this threaf about why it is proper to attack the satmar rabbi. Notice tzvi says that the anti zionist position is a valid position. I think that says it all. My work is done here and Tzvi is exposed.
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Tzvi,
Are you defending the Satmar? (maybe just as a forgiving gesture) Maybe you feel they are brothers that can be rehabilitated....... You're certainly not defending their actions?
And I do believe that the anti-zionist position is a valid position
Haha. Wow! Unbelievable. :o
What are you doing here on this forum pal?
I said it is a valid opinion, I didnt say I hold by it. Anyway if Chaim wants me to leave, I will.
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Tzvi,
Are you defending the Satmar? (maybe just as a forgiving gesture) Maybe you feel they are brothers that can be rehabilitated....... You're certainly not defending their actions?
And I do believe that the anti-zionist position is a valid position
Haha. Wow! Unbelievable. :o
What are you doing here on this forum pal?
Wow, I was thinking the same thing. That explains why he is so arrogantly able to say the same thing over and over again when I have proven him wrong beyond a reasonable doubt. This guy is a wallbanger. He is totally exposed and now we know why he supports every bolshevik dictator disguised as a rabbi under the sun.
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Tzvi,
Are you defending the Satmar? (maybe just as a forgiving gesture) Maybe you feel they are brothers that can be rehabilitated....... You're certainly not defending their actions?
And I do believe that the anti-zionist position is a valid position
Haha. Wow! Unbelievable. :o
What are you doing here on this forum pal?
I said it is a valid opinion, I didnt say I hold by it. Anyway if Chaim wants me to leave, I will.
If you think that the anti zionist opinion is valid then you dont belong here. Are you saying that the opinion that the jewish people who have been persecuted for thousands of years dreaming of a return to their homeland, have no right to the six mile wide slither of land they currently have. You sound like sheik rahman.
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Tzvi,
Are you defending the Satmar? (maybe just as a forgiving gesture) Maybe you feel they are brothers that can be rehabilitated....... You're certainly not defending their actions?
And I do believe that the anti-zionist position is a valid position
Haha. Wow! Unbelievable. :o
What are you doing here on this forum pal?
I said it is a valid opinion, I didnt say I hold by it. Anyway if Chaim wants me to leave, I will.
If you think that the anti zionist opinion is valid then you dont belong here. Are you saying that the opinion that the jewish people who have been persecuted for thousands of years dreaming of a return to their homeland, have no right to the six mile wide slither of land they currently have. You sound like sheik rahman.
And I said that? You should realy work with Haaretz and Meritz, and all the other drek in the israeli gov. and media. Or is it that you eat forbidden foods by the way you speak I would guess soo.
I never said that Jews shouldn't have the land of Israel. All I said was that their are opinions that said that the Jews should not return in mass and conqure the land, and I do not hold by that.
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Tzvi,
Are you defending the Satmar? (maybe just as a forgiving gesture) Maybe you feel they are brothers that can be rehabilitated....... You're certainly not defending their actions?
And I do believe that the anti-zionist position is a valid position
Haha. Wow! Unbelievable. :o
What are you doing here on this forum pal?
I said it is a valid opinion, I didnt say I hold by it. Anyway if Chaim wants me to leave, I will.
Well, make your point: Seriously, why is anti-Zionism a valid position??
Enlight us ::)
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Tzvi,
Are you defending the Satmar? (maybe just as a forgiving gesture) Maybe you feel they are brothers that can be rehabilitated....... You're certainly not defending their actions?
And I do believe that the anti-zionist position is a valid position
Haha. Wow! Unbelievable. :o
What are you doing here on this forum pal?
I said it is a valid opinion, I didnt say I hold by it. Anyway if Chaim wants me to leave, I will.
Well, make your point: Seriously, why is anti-Zionism a valid position??
Enlight us ::)
I know, I am waiting to hear how in hell it could be valid.
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Wow, the emotions are really thick here. Let me see if I can understand this, from someone who is just watching this whole thing from the outside. Tzvi sounds like what he's saying is that both positions are based on rabbinical interpretation of the Torah, but he's not personally anti-Zionist.
Is that what you meant Tzvi? That both are "valid" in the sense that they are both accepted interpretations, but that you agree with the Zionist one and therefore you do belong on this board?
I think it's the word "valid" that might be confusing here.
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I haven't read through all of these posts, but I think this topic should have been dropped a while ago. I'm also locking this one. Let's move on to JTF agenda.