JTF.ORG Forum
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: WALK STRONG on July 31, 2008, 11:11:47 AM
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Just wondering.
If, there are any, I would like to talk to you. You are welcome to shoot me a private email if you like.
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That means jews that believe in jesus..
don't partake in games.
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Are you Jewish?
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JfJ is not welcome here, so if there were they should leave.
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JfJ is not welcome here, so if there were they should leave.
What is JFJ Jews for Jesus?
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Walk Strong is banned. Attempts to convert Jews is absolutely forbidden on this forum.
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JfJ is not welcome here, so if there were they should leave.
What is JFJ Jews for Jesus?
Yes.
But I don't think Walk Strong was missionizing and we have no way of knowing if he belongs to JfJ.
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he was either a christian looking for jews that believe in jesus..
or he was a jew that believes in jesus, looking for others.
their tactics are subtle, they say "messianic jews", they often don't say jesus or christian, they say yeshu . this is an area that many are not familiar with.
I am in no doubt that JTF is not a meeting place or providing a meeting place or to be used to create a meeting place , for such people..
there are "messianic christians" but that's fine, that's something else. Still, they attract messianic jews.. They usually encourage jews to join them i.e. convert to christianity(but they are subtle). If they do that, that's not ok..
I knew a guy in a chat room that was bombarded by them.. and people didn't realise, so jews were at risk many are ignorant of their tactics. He uprooted them by asking them very strict questions.. And asking for yes or no answers.
If they are anywhere in between it means they are messy.. That was a jewish only chat room though.. prob not suitable for here
I may be out of place here saying what JTF stands for and what it does not.. But i'm probably right about this. If I am not then i'd be corrected.
Requesting some kind of meeting up for messianic jews .. that's not for JTF.. And advertising the fact that they are "messianic jews" as if that's ok here.. No.
we don't build up a specific society of messianic jews here.
Just good righteous honest jews and christians. (and hindus and atheists or whatever).
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he was either a christian looking for jews that believe in jesus..
or he was a jew that believes in jesus, looking for others.
their tactics are subtle, they say "messianic jews", they often don't say jesus or christian, they say yeshu . this is an area that many are not familiar with.
I am in no doubt that JTF is not a meeting place or providing a meeting place or to be used to create a meeting place , for such people..
there are "messianic christians" but that's fine, that's something else. Still, they attract messianic jews.. They usually encourage jews to join them i.e. convert to christianity(but they are subtle). If they do that, that's not ok..
I knew a guy in a chat room that was bombarded by them.. and people didn't realise, so jews were at risk many are ignorant of their tactics. He uprooted them by asking them very strict questions.. And asking for yes or no answers.
If they are anywhere in between it means they are messy.. That was a jewish only chat room though.. prob not suitable for here
I may be out of place here saying what JTF stands for and what it does not.. But i'm probably right about this. If I am not then i'd be corrected.
Requesting some kind of meeting up for messianic jews .. that's not for JTF.. And advertising the fact that they are "messianic jews" as if that's ok here.. No.
we don't build up a specific society of messianic jews here.
Just good righteous honest jews and christians. (and hindus and atheists or whatever).
Obviously, no one wants missionaries around here.
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I know that, so do most people. Why don't you tell the wall?
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Messianic Jews are not Jews. Jews for Jesus are not Jews. If you believe Jesus is your Messiah that makes you a Christian. I don't understand why so called Messianics insist on calling themselves Jews. Why can't they just say they are Christian and be proud of it? :o
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I know that, so do most people. Why don't you tell the wall?
What's your problem?
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I know that, so do most people. Why don't you tell the wall?
What's your problem?
Ask the wall
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Just wondering.
If, there are any, I would like to talk to you. You are welcome to shoot me a private email if you like.
I asked the wall and the wall said, "Nope"
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Ask the wall
Love is the answer.
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Yeah RIGHT, so you could lead us to the SLAUGHTER. FORCEFUL INDOCTRINATOR!!!!!!!
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Attempts to convert Jews is absolutely forbidden on this forum.
If I had said that, q q would have instructed me to, "tell it to the wall".
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Walk Strong is banned. Attempts to convert Jews is absolutely forbidden on this forum.
Somebody could have the idea this fool wanted it this way. ;)
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Attempts to convert Jews is absolutely forbidden on this forum.
If I had said that, q q would have instructed me to, "tell it to the wall".
the difference is that you quoted me, as if telling me that. Even though, as I said.
It's already been said, by chaim, and everybody knows, and I know.
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JfJ is not welcome here, so if there were they should leave.
I think JFJ and Messianic Jews are two different groups though they both follow the same person. Their both pretty bad though.
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JfJ is not welcome here, so if there were they should leave.
I think JFJ and Messianic Jews are two different groups though they both follow the same person. Their both pretty bad though.
It's the fact that they are jews and following jesus.
Not the fact that they follow jesus.
And even the latter are essentially missionaries
We have many christian members here and work together.
You understand that, so I don't know why you can't make sense in what you write, and write clearly.
Whoever wrote J4J was blurring things a little bit. But it is indeed the same concept.
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I have seen it posted a couple different ways on the forum, can someone explain what defines a Jew. Is it beliefs, blood/genetics, your parents, where you live or a combination of. Is someone that converts to Judaism the same as someone that is born a Jew?
Thanks
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I have seen it posted a couple different ways on the forum, can someone explain what defines a Jew. Is it beliefs, blood/genetics, your parents, where you live or a combination of. Is someone that converts to Judaism the same as someone that is born a Jew?
Thanks
yes
Jew can mean many things. Although in religious terms things are different.
A Jew who converted to Xtianity is still a Jew according to halachic (sp?) law if I am not mistaken, and obviously is still a Jew in terms of blood/genetics.
I imagine many people would have many differing opinions on this however...
In any case...I actually have a close relative who (sadly, in a state of mental illness) became a Xtian, or at least he calls himself one.
He actually thought he was J.C. at one point. (schizophrenia is not pretty)
He is much better now mentally...stable and everything, but still calls himself a X-tian (although he still also holds to many Jewish beliefs and customs as well).
Religious ideations are quite common among the mentally ill, and sadly there are too many instances of mental illness amongst our people.
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to say "jew that believes in jesus", or "jewish christian"..
because of the suggestion that that's OK..
that makes it not OK in any jewish circles, so prob not OK here either.
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I have seen it posted a couple different ways on the forum, can someone explain what defines a Jew. Is it beliefs, blood/genetics, your parents, where you live or a combination of. Is someone that converts to Judaism the same as someone that is born a Jew?
Thanks
Shamgar,
A Jew who converts is considered a full Jew, there is no differentiation. I have posted a link to IsraelNationalNews which recently ran a good article on the value of the Jewish convert.
The Jewish Approach to Converts
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/Articles/Article.aspx/8138
From the above linked article...
It is true that we are "racists," but we are racists in the positive sense of the word. We feel an obligation to rectify creation, as Rabbi Menashe of Iliya would say, "So long as even a single worm in the crevice of a stone is discomforted, the redemption has not arrived." As Jews, our most natural desire is that all people be blessed with happiness and we are forever working to better the world.
The horrid Nazi racists, on the other hand, who considered themselves "the chosen people," understood chosenness in an impure and negative sense. They believed that they deserve the best of everything and that everybody must serve them and work for them. We Jews, however, are inherently compassionate. We even show compassion to our adversaries.
Therefore, if a German or an Arab should seek to join the Jewish people, even if he is the son of a fierce anti-Semite, we shall accept him and love him like any other Jew. Moreover, we shall love him even more than other Jews, in keeping with the commandment to "love the convert, for you too were strangers in the land of Egypt." (Deuteronomy 10:19)
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Relating to Converts
After a person converts to Judaism he is like any other Jew. In fact, one must be more sensitive to his feelings than those of other Jews. This is because of the extreme difficulties that a convert faces. After all, it is not easy to leave one's people and one's home in order to join a wise nation with an ancient culture and rich tradition, which is not so easily absorbed even after many years of study. This extreme transition calls for great inner strength, and even the slightest insult can undermine a convert's confidence and cause him great despair.
I hope this explains the Jewish idea of converts...
Thank you,
muman613
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Messianic Jews are not Jews. Jews for Jesus are not Jews. If you believe Jesus is your Messiah that makes you a Christian. I don't understand why so called Messianic insist on calling themselves Jews. Why can't they just say they are Christian and be proud of it? :o
??? If they have Jewish nationality by blood and faith in Christianity by mind... that makes them christian Jews.
They call themselves Jews because they are Jews by blood. But because they religion is not Judaism, that makes them messianic Jews.
You don't tell the Jews who is a Jew. Jewish religion and Jewish nation are one and the same.
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Messianic Jews are not Jews. Jews for Jesus are not Jews. If you believe Jesus is your Messiah that makes you a Christian. I don't understand why so called Messianic insist on calling themselves Jews. Why can't they just say they are Christian and be proud of it? :o
??? If they have Jewish nationality by blood and faith in Christianity by mind... that makes them christian Jews.
They call themselves Jews because they are Jews by blood. But because they religion is not Judaism, that makes them messianic Jews.
You don't tell the Jews who is a Jew. Jewish religion and Jewish nation are one and the same.
Zelhar,
I would like to agree but there are Jews who claim to be atheists and those who believe in the false messiah. These people are walking on very shaky ground to call themselves religious Jews. Their faith is in stark opposition to the basic tenets of the Jewish faith. I consider these people to be heretics or apikores.
According to Wikipedia article : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apikores
Heresy in Orthodox Judaism (Hebrew: kefira or kefiro) is defined as which depart from the traditional Jewish principles of faith to be heretical. In addition, mainstream Orthodox Judaism holds that all Jews who reject the simple meaning of Maimonides' 13 principles of Jewish faith are heretics. However, there are those who hold that in today's day and age a person cannot be a heretic, only an ingnoramus.
muman613
PS: Yet even those who have gone down the path of heresy still can always repent and return. As such I must not cast too harsh a judgement on them. In my younger days I was far from the truth...
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Thanks Muman. As always, I value your posts. When I retire in a couple more years I hope to become more of a scholar.
GBU
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Attempts to convert Jews is absolutely forbidden on this forum.
I wish myspace would adopt the same policy. I've gotten messages from people before trying to convince me to see things their way. Like I would go to myspace for religious guidance. ::)
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Attempts to convert Jews is absolutely forbidden on this forum.
I wish myspace would adopt the same policy. I've gotten messages from people before trying to convince me to see things their way. Like I would go to myspace for religious guidance. ::)
One thing that can stir fear in any Christian?
A Jehovah Witness knocking on your front door bright and early on a Saturday morning... ;D
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I have seen it posted a couple different ways on the forum, can someone explain what defines a Jew. Is it beliefs, blood/genetics, your parents, where you live or a combination of. Is someone that converts to Judaism the same as someone that is born a Jew?
Thanks
Hi Shamgar, here are a few questions answered to the best of my ability.
What defines a Jew? Judaism is a set of belief's followed by actions and good deed's.
Genetics determine what we look like, our health, ect.
Geography is a preference issue, for example there is no difference between American and Israelis Jews expect for Citizenship status.
Converts...converts are Jewish if they have an Orthodox conversion with Orthodox Rabbi's in attendance.
Who is Jewish...anyone that is born to a Jewish Mother...even converts are considered 100 percent Jewish if the conversion is done in accordance with Jewish Law.
Shalom from Dox
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One thing that can stir fear in any Christian?
A Hashem Witness knocking on your front door bright and early on a Saturday morning... ;D
Sweet! Where can I sign up for that? :::D
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http://www.watchtower.org/
Be careful, if you sign up you have to work on Saturdays... :-\
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http://www.watchtower.org/
Be careful, if you sign up you have to work on Saturdays... :-\
Wait, I wanted to witness for Hashem, not Jehovah. ;D
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http://www.watchtower.org/
Be careful, if you sign up you have to work on Saturdays... :-\
Wait, I wanted to witness for Hashem, not Hashem. ;D
My statement was kind of tongue in cheek but it basically is true. I live outside of a large metro area and the Je hova Witnesses scour the neighborhoods on Saturday mornings trying to convert anyone they can to be a J Witness. They get dropped off in neighborhoods and have ankle length skirts or black jackets on, so when you see them coming down your road, you grab the kids and dog and run in the house, pull the shades and wait for them to go away. If they catch you outside they will stand there and witness to you for hours.
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http://www.watchtower.org/
Be careful, if you sign up you have to work on Saturdays... :-\
Wait, I wanted to witness for Hashem, not Hashem. ;D
Didn't realize that Je hovah would be replaced with Hashem! I meant to say I wanted to witness for Hashem, not Je hovah. :::D
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I would like to agree but there are Jews who claim to be atheists and those who believe in the false messiah. These people are walking on very shaky ground to call themselves religious Jews. Their faith is in stark opposition to the basic tenets of the Jewish faith. I consider these people to be heretics or apikores.
Actually believing in a false messiah isn't necessarily a Kfira- Rabbi Akiva believed that Bar Kuziva is the Messiah. The Kfira begins when the 'messiah' is dead and people keep believing he is the messiah and await his return.
PS: Yet even those who have gone down the path of heresy still can always repent and return. As such I must not cast too harsh a judgement on them. In my younger days I was far from the truth...
I am a secular Jew but I live the subject of who is a Jew for the Gdolim to determine. To the best of my knowledge a Jew who converts to another religion is Karet from klal Yisrael, and yet he always has an option to chose to return to Judaism and to Klal Yisrael but as long as he doesn't he is karet.
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the main heresy/unjewish belief is for a jew to believe that he doesn't have to follow the torah commandments.
Of course, in jewish belief, there is and was no man-G-d.. In judaism, Worshipping a man, as a G-d, is forbidden , whether he is alive or dead. So that would also be a very heterical thing for a jew to believe.
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I would like to agree but there are Jews who claim to be atheists and those who believe in the false messiah. These people are walking on very shaky ground to call themselves religious Jews. Their faith is in stark opposition to the basic tenets of the Jewish faith. I consider these people to be heretics or apikores.
Actually believing in a false messiah isn't necessarily a Kfira- Rabbi Akiva believed that Bar Kuziva is the Messiah. The Kfira begins when the 'messiah' is dead and people keep believing he is the messiah and await his return.
PS: Yet even those who have gone down the path of heresy still can always repent and return. As such I must not cast too harsh a judgement on them. In my younger days I was far from the truth...
I am a secular Jew but I live the subject of who is a Jew for the Gdolim to determine. To the best of my knowledge a Jew who converts to another religion is Karet from klal Yisrael, and yet he always has an option to chose to return to Judaism and to Klal Yisrael but as long as he doesn't he is karet.
You are correct, the problem with Christianity is its belief that he was Moshiach in light of the fact that he did not fufill the prophecies of what Moshiach needs to do. I dont think it is wrong to believe that a person is Moshiach if there is a chance they may succeed. Actually Rabbi Akiva had many reasons to believe that Bar Kochbah was Moshiach because he did sucessfully fight off the Romans for many years.
See this Chabad link for more info on Bar Kochba and the issue of Moshiach...
http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/101679/jewish/The-Personality-of-Mashiach.htm
From Aish:
http://www.aish.com/literacy/jewishhistory/Crash_Course_in_Jewish_History_Part_37_-_The_Bar_Kochba_Revolt.asp
From Aish site:
Jewish outrage at his actions led to one of the single greatest revolts of the Roman Era. Simon Bar Kosiba led the uprising, which began in full force in 132 CE.
For many years, historians did not write very much about Simon Bar Kosiba. But then, archeologists discovered some of his letters in Nahal Hever near the Dead Sea. If you go to the Israel Museum you can see these letters and they are absolutely fascinating. Some of them pertain to religious observance, because his army was a totally religious army. But they also contain a tremendous amount of historical facts. We learn that the Jews participating in the revolt were hiding out in caves. (These caves have also been found - full of belongings of Bar Kosiba's people. The belongings - pottery, shoes, etc. - are on display in the Israel Museum, and the caves, though bare, are open to tourists.)
From the letters and other historical data, we learn that in 132 CE, Bar Kosiba organized a large guerilla army and succeeded in actually throwing the Romans out of Jerusalem and Israel and establishing, albeit for a very brief period, an independent Jewish state. The Talmud (Sanhedrin 97b) states that he established an independent kingdom that lasted for two and half years.
Bar Kosiba's success caused many to believe -- among them Rabbi Akiva, one of the wisest and holiest of Israel's rabbis -- that he could be the Messiah. He was nicknamed "Bar Kochba" or "Son of Star," an allusion to a verse in the Book of Numbers (24:17): "there shall come a star out of Jacob." This star is understood to refer to the Messiah.
Bar Kochba did not turn out to be the Messiah, and later the rabbis wrote that his real name was Bar Kosiva meaning "Son of a Lie" -- highlighting the fact that he was a false Messiah.
muman613
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Bar Kochba was the Moshiach, but then he failed (And I heard this already from a number of places, and also recently Judea also said the same in his Torah show).
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Bar Kochba was the Moshiach, but then he failed (And I heard this already from a number of places, and also recently Judea also said the same in his Torah show).
Not moshiach
PRESUMED MOSHIACH, yes . (for a torah jew that fights the wars of G-d, but as soon as he fails, we know the presumption was wrong)
See RAMBAM hilchot melachim.
The RAMBAM is clear on this.
there is no way anybody would say he was moshiach
Presume means. suppose he is moshiach.
We can then see what conclusion it leads to. And in this case, conclude whether he is or not..
presume is an assume x. It does not mean x is true.
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Bar Kochba was the Moshiach, but then he failed (And I heard this already from a number of places, and also recently Judea also said the same in his Torah show).
Not moshiach
PRESUMED MOSHIACH, yes . (for a torah jew that fights the wars of G-d, but as soon as he fails, we know the presumption was wrong)
See RAMBAM hilchot melachim.
The RAMBAM is clear on this.
there is no way anybody would say he was moshiach
Presume means. suppose he is moshiach.
We can then see what conclusion it leads to. And in this case, conclude whether he is or not..
presume is an assume x. It does not mean x is true.
Tzvi,
Here is a link to RAMBAMS Hilchot Melachim - Laws concerning Kings...
http://www.sichosinenglish.org/books/mashiach/09.htm
It is very interesting reading...
The Messianic King will arise in the future and restore the Davidic Kingdom to its former state and original sovereignty. He will build the Sanctuary and gather the dispersed of Israel. All the laws will be re-instituted in his days as they had been aforetimes; sacrifices will be offered, and the Sabbatical years and Jubilee years will be observed fully as ordained by the Torah.
Anyone who does not believe in [Mashiach], or whoever does not look forward to his coming, denies not only [the teachings of] the other prophets but [also those] of the Torah and of Moses our Teacher. For the Torah attested to him, as it is said:
"G-d, your G-d, will return your captivity and have mercy on you. He will return and gather you [from all the nations whither G-d, your G-d, has scattered you]. If your banished shall be at the utmost end of the heavens [G-d, your G-d, will gather you from there].. and G-d, your G-d, will bring you [to the land that your fathers possessed, and you will possess it].."
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3. Do not think that the Messianic King will have to perform signs and wonders and bring about novel things in the world, or resurrect the dead, and other such things. It is not so. This is seen from the fact that Rabbi Akiva was a great sage, of the sages of the Mishnah, and he was an armor-bearer of King Bar Koziba and said of him that he is the Messianic King: [R. Akiva] and all the wise men of his generation considered him to be the Messianic King until [Bar Koziba] was killed because of sins, and when he was killed they realized that he was not; but the sages had not asked him for any sign or wonder.
Thank you,
muman613
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i had no idea (then again i am 13 i am not expected to do so) walkstrong tried to convert people ? ???????!!!!!! >:(
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i had no idea (then again i am 13 i am not expected to do so) walkstrong tried to convert people ? ???????!!!!!! >:(
not explicitly, but implicitly, and practically speaking, yes.
see my post about so-called "messianic jews". and the terms they use to make it not obvious that they are christians.
he basically wanted to socialise here with "messianic jews" i.e. jews that believe in jesus.. i.e. that follow christianity. This would encourage them to remain in it..
other than that he seemed quite likeable!
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Hello,
Check out this post on my blog:
http://lgfsucks.wordpress.com/2008/07/22/the-real-messianic-jews/
Thank you,
muman613
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What is a Messianic Jew, anyway? Let's call them for what they are: Christians. How can you possibly convert someone who isn't Jewish to begin with?
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What is a Messianic Jew, anyway? Let's call them for what they are: Christians. How can you possibly convert someone who isn't Jewish to begin with?
There are people born Jewish who are missionized by J4J {JoosForJebus} to believe that their messiah was Moshiach. They still act like Jews, keep kosher, do mitzvahs, etc... But they think that the messiah has come and is coming back. Personally I find it sickening, but I have gotten in trouble before when I express this...
muman613
Check out this anti-missionary site : http://www.jewsforjudaism.org/
PPS: It is certainly possible for a non-Jew to convert to Judaism. I know this from personal experience. I know a man who converted to Orthodox Judaism {including getting the circumcision at age 50}.
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i had no idea (then again i am 13 i am not expected to do so) walkstrong tried to convert people ? ???????!!!!!! >:(
not explicitly, but implicitly, and practically speaking, yes.
see my post about so-called "messianic jews". and the terms they use to make it not obvious that they are christians.
he basically wanted to socialise here with "messianic jews" i.e. jews that believe in jesus.. i.e. that follow christianity. This would encourage them to remain in it..
other than that he seemed quite likeable!
You know this from other posts of his or just from the one which started this thread ?
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i had no idea (then again i am 13 i am not expected to do so) walkstrong tried to convert people ? ???????!!!!!! >:(
not explicitly, but implicitly, and practically speaking, yes.
see my post about so-called "messianic jews". and the terms they use to make it not obvious that they are christians.
he basically wanted to socialise here with "messianic jews" i.e. jews that believe in jesus.. i.e. that follow christianity. This would encourage them to remain in it..
other than that he seemed quite likeable!
You know this from other posts of his or just from the one which started this thread ?
Others.
Not the one that started this thread.
Nevertheless, what he wanted to do (see his first post and his only post of this thread), is (rightly I think) unacceptable here..
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Messianic Jews are not Jews. Jews for Jesus are not Jews. If you believe Jesus is your Messiah that makes you a Christian. I don't understand why so called Messianic insist on calling themselves Jews. Why can't they just say they are Christian and be proud of it? :o
??? If they have Jewish nationality by blood and faith in Christianity by mind... that makes them christian Jews.
They call themselves Jews because they are Jews by blood. But because they religion is not Judaism, that makes them messianic Jews.
Judaism is a religion not a race...If one chooses jesus christ, they are christian and practicing christianity...there is no such thing as a Christian jew..that is an oxymoron!
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Messianic Jews are not Jews. Jews for Jesus are not Jews. If you believe Jesus is your Messiah that makes you a Christian. I don't understand why so called Messianic insist on calling themselves Jews. Why can't they just say they are Christian and be proud of it? :o
??? If they have Jewish nationality by blood and faith in Christianity by mind... that makes them christian Jews.
They call themselves Jews because they are Jews by blood. But because they religion is not Judaism, that makes them messianic Jews.
Judaism is a religion not a race...If one chooses jesus christ, they are christian and practicing christianity...there is no such thing as a Christian jew..that is an oxymoron!
Dan,
This is just your opinion. Halacha {Jewish Law} says that a person born of a Jewish mother is Jewish, even if he goes down the path of other religions. This has been the law since the days of Moses. But maybe you know better...
muman613
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This is copied from : http://www.torah.org/learning/perceptions/5760/shlach.html
1. Conceptually, what is a Jew?
2. What is the purpose of creation?
3. How is This World meant to fulfill the above?
Regarding the first question, there are very strict halachic definitions of who constitutes a "Jew," either through birth or conversion. Historically, there have ALWAY been those who have challenged the halachic definition of the Jew, but their ideas have been at best an opinion and misguided response to the TRUE definition as handed down throughout the generations. In the end, you can fool most of the people most of the time, but you can't fool G-d ANY of the time, and the halachic definition of a Jew came from HIM at Mt. Sinai via Moshe Rabbeinu.
However, conceptually, there is more to a Jew that what fulfills the halachic requirements. A Jew is supposed to be someone who views himself as only "passing through" This World, on the way to a more spiritually dynamic and fulfilling level of existence (Pirkei Avos 4:16). A Jew is someone who is supposed to fend off spiritual stagnation, forever enhancing his or her relationship with the Master of the Universe.
For THAT is the PURPOSE of creation. All of it. Every last detail and every last electron exists merely as a stage upon which man is supposed to exercise his free-will in pursuit of oneness with his Creator (Derech Hashem 1:2:1). The fact that so few people are aware of this, and even fewer approach life with this fundamental in mind, doesn't change the urgency of he need to do both.
How does one achieve this?
Wisdom. Wisdom is that knowledge which DIRECTLY leads and INSPIRES one to make the pursuit of G-d the top priority. You will notice that not all knowledge does this, and that some knowledge even seems to inspire just the opposite. Hence, whereas all wisdom is, by definition, knowledge, not all knowledge automatically constitutes wisdom, and one has to know the distinction between the two, and how to transform the former (knowledge) into the latter (wisdom).
The Torah's entire role is to teach us this crucial and godly ability, without which mankind becomes like a raft floating aimlessly and helplessly down a rushing river. Be it in the form of a narration, a story, or a mitzvah, the goal is the same: to train the mind to distinguish between simple knowledge and profound wisdom, and how to extract out of the former the latter.
By nature, the world should have been able to teach us this, and for some, it did. For, the Midrash teaches that:
When G-d created the world, He looked into the Torah like a blueprint. (Bereishis Rabbah 5:2)
Thus, the world, just like an actual building, is a three-dimensional expression of a multi-dimensional conceptual reality. One should, theoretically, be able to look at every last detail of physical creation and surmise Divine wisdom from within them.
However, with the exception of a few, very spiritually talented individuals, this has not be the case, and the physical world has been totally misread -- and, as a result, abused -- throughout our long and twisted history. Consequently, in the year 2448 from creation (1313 BCE), G-d handed over the set of "blueprints" to make our job of becoming wiser, a lot easier. Together with this "blueprint" of creation, the world is supposed to help us become wiser and closer to G-d!
Apparently, though, there is one place in the world where the Torah actually merges with the physical reality, making the lesson of life a matter of fact: Eretz Yisroel. Even today, in a world that has become exceedingly materialistic, Eretz Yisroel remains to be a physical projection of the Torah, even though so many who live on the land practice just the opposite, and try to undermine Torah.
However, this reality does not change the fact that a Jew who walks the land can directly connect to the Torah through the soil itself, or, by merely inhaling the air. For the sake of free-will, Jews have to be able to reject this phenomenal opportunity, just like as in the desert, when some turned against G-d and Moshe Rabbeinu, even as the Divine Presence hovered above their heads!
However, for the Jew who wants to be a Jew in the halachic and philosophical sense of the term, by constantly enhancing his or her relationship with his or her Creator, and use the Torah to do so, then such people can do so with far less steps, far fewer intermediaries by simply BEING in Eretz Yisroel, for ONLY in Eretz Yisroel does Torah, the land, and the World-to-Come merge and become one. To LEARN there, and to LIVE there, well, that's another level all together!
This is why rejection of Eretz Yisroel in this week's parshah is seen as rejection of G-d, and for that matter, the entire purpose of creation. For, anyone who truly wants to fulfill the purpose of creation and put their closeness to G-d above and beyond anything else in life, by definition, and, at the very least, has to yearn to become one with the land himself. And YEARNING to be there is the first step to getting the proper help from Heaven to fulfill that dream in both the halachic and philosophical sense.
As you see a Jew is born a Jew, or can convert to be a Jew. But once a Jew you are considered a Jew.
muman613
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Messianic Jews are not Jews. Jews for Jesus are not Jews. If you believe Jesus is your Messiah that makes you a Christian. I don't understand why so called Messianic insist on calling themselves Jews. Why can't they just say they are Christian and be proud of it? :o
??? If they have Jewish nationality by blood and faith in Christianity by mind... that makes them christian Jews.
They call themselves Jews because they are Jews by blood. But because they religion is not Judaism, that makes them messianic Jews.
Judaism is a religion not a race...If one chooses jesus christ, they are christian and practicing christianity...there is no such thing as a Christian jew..that is an oxymoron!
Dan,
This is just your opinion. Halacha {Jewish Law} says that a person born of a Jewish mother is Jewish, even if he goes down the path of other religions. This has been the law since the days of Moses. But maybe you know better...
muman613
Let me rephrase...Someone who is Jewish who practices another religion, such that let's say for example, worships Jesus Christ....Might be a Jew, but is practicing the Christian religion.
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What is a Messianic Jew, anyway? Let's call them for what they are: Christians. How can you possibly convert someone who isn't Jewish to begin with?
They still act like Jews, keep kosher, do mitzvahs, etc...
::) They say they do mitzvot, and they say they do only Biblical and not Rabbinic Mitzvot, BUT if one looks at what they do and do not do they will see that they do the exact opposite. They have Hannukah (which is completly a Rabbinic Mitzva), yett they break Shabb-t which is a Biblical Mitzva (and they dont really do mitzvot though, besides just add more holidays to themselves- you know- whatever they feel comfortable with doing they do, whatever is demanding and not comfortable of course the "Rabbis made it up"
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Chaimfan's two cents (as an evangelical Christian) in response to various subtopics in this thread:
1: It's extrarodinarily hard to believe that WALK_STRONG did not know that this would be an incendiary and enormously offensive topic and that talking about missionizing is forbidden. I suppose it is possible, but Chaim has made our rules clear to everybody. We better watch the forum for the next few days to see if there are trolling attempts. I myself was very suspicious of WS when he came on a few weeks ago, all of a sudden, out-of-the-blue asking if Chaim was "indeed a criminal". That thread of his casts grave doubt on the notion that he just happened to be ignorant of our rules about missionizing.
2: JFJ is indeed a Messianic Jewish group, but it is not the only one. In other words, all JFJ members are Messianics, but not all Messianics are members of JFJ. There are other MJ organizations, as well as some MJs who are not members of any organized group at all.
3: The orthodox Christian view, strictly speaking, is not that one must "give up" Judaism, or that Judaism is obsolete, but rather that Jesus is the Messiah for all mankind, and that observing halacha is not the literal basis for entry to heaven. For instance, Christians believe that the great patriarchs of the faith, such as King David, were saved by faith in and love for G-d, and that his obedience of G-d's commandments was evidence of this; likewise, Christians today don't believe that you are saved by abstinence before marriage or going to church, but rather that the above are evidence of salvation. (I realize that the Jewish view differs greatly from this--I was just stating the historical Christian view for the purpose of clarification). Obviously, I have no idea what exactly WALK_STRONG believes, and I'm not gonna find out! ;D
4: As a Christian, I am ignorant of what the actual Jewish description of the Messiah is and what the Jewish requirements of the Messiah are. I do know that several Jews believe that the Lubavitcher Rebbe was the Messiah, but know nothing about the specific arguments for and against him. Could somebody kindly link me to some good websites explaining qualifications for Messiahship, and specifically the arguments for and against the Lubavitcher rebbe being the Messiah? (Sidenote: Regardless of whether he was the Messiah, I do believe that the Lubavitcher rebbe was one of the holiest men who ever lived.) Thank you!
Chaimfan
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Truthseeker, I am certain that you're a great person, but it's against the policies of the forum to talk about these things. It can get very offensive to Jews. I sent you a private message--did you receive it?
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Truthseeker, while Christianity and Judaism have similarities, they also have differences. Furthermore, the two religions separated a long time ago. I don't think I need to go into all the differences here. You are free to practice whatever makes you happy. But the expression Christian Jew, or Jewish Christian is considered an oxymoron by Jews, regardless of our level of observance.
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JfJ is not welcome here, so if there were they should leave.
Why? Gentiles welcome, Jews welcome, but Jews that believe in Christ not...
Can you explain?
We believe in cooperation and not proselytism of the other side.
We can't work together if the counterpart has to give up his identety, his believe, his religion.
In my oppinion it is not possible to be a Jew and a Christian in the same time.
The whole ceremonial part of the law of Moses is abolished in Christianity.
Actually it is a sin according to Paulus letter to the Galatians to stick to it, specially if you seek salvation in it.
Catholics claim the same that Jews claim, that one time a xyz every time xyz.
In my oppinion is there a parting of the ways.
Either you go this way or you go that way.
No mixing is here allowed.
It is righteous and honest to keep "Jews that believe in Christ" away from this forum.
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Truthseeker, please reply. Neither of us are upset with you, and in fact you are probably a really cool person to get to know. But we do not want to offend our Jewish brothers and sisters, who don't believe that Jesus is the Messiah, or our dear Chairman Chaim Ben Pesach. I already PMd you if you want to talk offline about Christianity/Judaism/MJs. That's all.
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Actually it is a sin according to Paulus letter to the Galatians to stick to it, specially if you seek salvation in it.
Sorry for the technical tangent here, but Paul did not say it is wrong to keep Jewish law. He said that it is not the basis by which salvation is achieved.
Anyway, what Pheasant said is correct. This is an organization where people of many different faiths work together for a common goal, not where religious particulars are debated or witnessing takes place.
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Actually it is a sin according to Paulus letter to the Galatians to stick to it, specially if you seek salvation in it.
Sorry for the technical tangent here, but Paul did not say it is wrong to keep Jewish law. He said that it is not the basis by which salvation is achieved.
So wait who are you following Jesus or Paul? If Jesus (in one place) said to follow the Rabbis and follow what they say (and of-course they say to keep the Commandments), and then Paul says to just believe and that is how salvation is given, then who are christians following jesus or paul?
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TruthSeeker- Whats the deal here? This is an ORTHODOX Jewish Forum- #1.
#2. It is SAVE AMERICA, Jews and Gentiles Welcome (and decent people)
#3. Fine, be whatever you are, but there is NO argument OR debate.
#4. I can tell that you are a LOVING person, so spread the love, by just loving, and thats all that is necessary.
#5. We ARE losing this nation, in the scheme of things- YOU, and I, really are nobody's.
#6. As a person that has a history of Forceful indoctrination, I get REALLY SUPER P'od when this gets brought up, I will NOT be FORCED into ANYTHING BY ANYBODY. I have made NO bones, that I LIKE reading the N.T. & Thats all. Thanks for UNDERSTANDING. THIS is a PAINFUL subject for ME. VERY PAINFUL.
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Actually it is a sin according to Paulus letter to the Galatians to stick to it, specially if you seek salvation in it.
Sorry for the technical tangent here, but Paul did not say it is wrong to keep Jewish law. He said that it is not the basis by which salvation is achieved.
So wait who are you following Jesus or Paul? If Jesus (in one place) said to follow the Rabbis and follow what they say (and of-course they say to keep the Commandments), and then Paul says to just believe and that is how salvation is given, then who are christians following jesus or paul?
Christians understand the gospels through the letters of Paul.
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Chaimfan's two cents (as an evangelical Christian) in response to various subtopics in this thread:
1: It's extrarodinarily hard to believe that WALK_STRONG did not know that this would be an incendiary and enormously offensive topic and that talking about missionizing is forbidden. I suppose it is possible, but Chaim has made our rules clear to everybody. We better watch the forum for the next few days to see if there are trolling attempts. I myself was very suspicious of WS when he came on a few weeks ago, all of a sudden, out-of-the-blue asking if Chaim was "indeed a criminal". That thread of his casts grave doubt on the notion that he just happened to be ignorant of our rules about missionizing.
2: JFJ is indeed a Messianic Jewish group, but it is not the only one. In other words, all JFJ members are Messianics, but not all Messianics are members of JFJ. There are other MJ organizations, as well as some MJs who are not members of any organized group at all.
3: The orthodox Christian view, strictly speaking, is not that one must "give up" Judaism, or that Judaism is obsolete, but rather that Jesus is the Messiah for all mankind, and that observing halacha is not the literal basis for entry to heaven. For instance, Christians believe that the great patriarchs of the faith, such as King David, were saved by faith in and love for G-d, and that his obedience of G-d's commandments was evidence of this; likewise, Christians today don't believe that you are saved by abstinence before marriage or going to church, but rather that the above are evidence of salvation. (I realize that the Jewish view differs greatly from this--I was just stating the historical Christian view for the purpose of clarification). Obviously, I have no idea what exactly WALK_STRONG believes, and I'm not gonna find out! ;D
4: As a Christian, I am ignorant of what the actual Jewish description of the Messiah is and what the Jewish requirements of the Messiah are. I do know that several Jews believe that the Lubavitcher Rebbe was the Messiah, but know nothing about the specific arguments for and against him. Could somebody kindly link me to some good websites explaining qualifications for Messiahship, and specifically the arguments for and against the Lubavitcher rebbe being the Messiah? (Sidenote: Regardless of whether he was the Messiah, I do believe that the Lubavitcher rebbe was one of the holiest men who ever lived.) Thank you!
Chaimfan
very thoughtfully written O0
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JfJ is not welcome here, so if there were they should leave.
Why? Gentiles welcome, Jews welcome, but Jews that believe in Christ not...
Can you explain?
not sure if you are the type to defend this movement of "Jews" who worship Jesus as the messiah, but i will give you the benefit of the doubt that you simply don't know or are playing devil's advocate.
it is my opinion that it is good for christians to worship as they feel fit in their hearts even to jesus if it makes them better people. however judaism is a whole other theology. jesus would make no sense by the way judaism has evolved. it even stands as contradiction to jewish theology for a jew to truely be both. it's impossible and quite sckizophrenic.
i'm not bashing christianity. it is a good religion, in my opinion, for christians. Judaism is a completely different religion.
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Walk Strong is banned. Attempts to convert Jews is absolutely forbidden on this forum.
I think she (or he?) just wanted to find out how many JFJ are here, not to convert. I love this site! It's very informational and very intelligent. I'm christian Jew who loves Israel and agrees with this org. in many topics.
So, I must leave and never comeback just because I'm Jew that be lives in Christ?
truthseeker...let me inform you of something: if your mother is jewish, then by jewish law you would be jewish. if you worship christ you arent practicing judaism.... you are practicing an "alien" religion. you are doing a very wrong thing if you are truely a jew.
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As I posted earlier, Judaism and Christianity separated a long time ago, and there are big differences. So as Jew I think it's safe to say that most Jews would looks suspiciously upon anyone calling him/herself a Christian Jew. It tends to come across to Jews as a sneaky way of missionizing.
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When I believe someone genuinely doesn't know how it comes off, and they make an early post with the word messianic in it or something like that, I usually delete the post and tell them that it's not allowed to bring that kind of stuff up on this board, and I explain why in a gentle way. I've done that a couple of times already and I think in the majority of cases people just don't know any better and that's why they post that stuff.
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So wait who are you following Jesus or Paul? If Jesus (in one place) said to follow the Rabbis and follow what they say (and of-course they say to keep the Commandments), and then Paul says to just believe and that is how salvation is given, then who are christians following jesus or paul?
Christians consider Jesus and Paul to be equally canonical.
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So wait who are you following Jesus or Paul? If Jesus (in one place) said to follow the Rabbis and follow what they say (and of-course they say to keep the Commandments), and then Paul says to just believe and that is how salvation is given, then who are christians following jesus or paul?
Christians consider Jesus and Paul to be equally canonical.
Sometimes I question some of the things Paul wrote, but that's another topic altogether. lol
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very thoughtfully written O0
Thanks!
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So wait who are you following Jesus or Paul? If Jesus (in one place) said to follow the Rabbis and follow what they say (and of-course they say to keep the Commandments), and then Paul says to just believe and that is how salvation is given, then who are christians following jesus or paul?
Christians consider Jesus and Paul to be equally canonical.
How are they equal if the opinion of paul is taken over Haysus's? Wouldn't that mean that Paul is higher and more authoritative then him?
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PM me.
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A Jew who converted to Xtianity is still a Jew according to halachic (sp?) law if I am not mistaken, and obviously is still a Jew in terms of blood/genetics.
I imagine many people would have many differing opinions on this however...
Religion is a belief, not a genetic trait. You can't take DNA tests of random people and find out who's Jewish or not.
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A Jew who converted to Xtianity is still a Jew according to halachic (sp?) law if I am not mistaken, and obviously is still a Jew in terms of blood/genetics.
I imagine many people would have many differing opinions on this however...
Religion is a belief, not a genetic trait. You can't take DNA tests of random people and find out who's Jewish or not.
if that's true, then why are some genetic disorders, like Tay-Sachs, much more common with Jews than with other groups?
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We have a lot of pressing issues in common to address:
* Fag Agenda
* Abortionists
* Big Government Liberals / Conspiracy to increase taxes
* New World Order Traitors
* Anti-Gun groups
* Islam
* Communism/socialism
* Anti-Zionism
* Black Agenda and many more!
Why do some idiotic people repeatedly bring up issues which cause confusion in the forum?
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A Jew who converted to Xtianity is still a Jew according to halachic (sp?) law if I am not mistaken, and obviously is still a Jew in terms of blood/genetics.
I imagine many people would have many differing opinions on this however...
Religion is a belief, not a genetic trait. You can't take DNA tests of random people and find out who's Jewish or not.
if that's true, then why are some genetic disorders, like Tay-Sachs, much more common with Jews than with other groups?
That question didn't even make sense.
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Tay Sachs is more common among Ashkenazi groups but if you're not of Ashkenazi descent then I don't think you're at higher risk of having a baby with it.
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even amongst ashkenazim I don't think it's -that- common Most ashkenazim barely know people with it.. There's the story of some guy's sister that is very ill, but you hardly know the guy
Thing is, you can be tested before marriage.. It may be only disasterous if both are carriers. depending on how the disease works. And they know for example, with tay sachs. It's not something people really worry about that much.
The important thing with marriage is the pre-nuptial agreement! I don't know much about it, but for jews it deals with the issue of the Get. For a jewish marriage, divorce requires the man to give the wife a "get" and the wife accept. So both have to agree to it. It is possible for one to not do it, and then they're boht stuck. If the man's a real bad guy. Typically it's the man that withholds it, and the woman can't remarry. So there are these pre-nuptial agreements you can do before the marriage that deal with that problem.
And of course genetic tests for tay sachs are a good idea.. for ashkenazim.
It is quite rare. You do get the odd person in a wheelchair from some motor neurone disease. Coming to think about it, I have seen it once or twice..
It is avoidable with the tests.
but consider how many people die of cancer. That's WAY more common.. Must be at least 1/10
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Some cancer genes are also more common among Ashkenazi Jewish people. I did a report on genetic profiling a while back where insurance companies and others are trying to get people's genetic information about them, and one of the arguments I used against genetic discrimination is that it targets certain groups, such as Ashkenazim. BRCA-1 and BRCA-2 mutations are more common among Ashkenazi Jewish women.
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JfJ is not welcome here, so if there were they should leave.
Why? Gentiles welcome, Jews welcome, but Jews that believe in Christ not...
Can you explain?
JTF welcomes righteous people and rejects evil people. And JFJ are evil because they use treachery, deception and seduction to pray on innocent and ignorant Jews. You can't be a Jewn who believes in Jesus, you were a Jew and you turned away from your people and your religion and accepted another. The only way for you to ever be once again a member of the Jewish people is to do a honest teshuva. Otherwise don't call yourself a Jew cause you're not and that's deceiving.
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A Jew who converted to Xtianity is still a Jew according to halachic (sp?) law if I am not mistaken, and obviously is still a Jew in terms of blood/genetics.
I imagine many people would have many differing opinions on this however...
Religion is a belief, not a genetic trait. You can't take DNA tests of random people and find out who's Jewish or not.
if that's true, then why are some genetic disorders, like Tay-Sachs, much more common with Jews than with other groups?
Because most Jews are decedents or partially descended from a small group of ancestors, there had never been mass conversions to the point of significantly diluting the Jewish ethnic roots. Nevertheless we are not defined by genetics but by religion.
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We have a lot of pressing issues in common to address:
* Fag Agenda
* Abortionists
* Big Government Liberals / Conspiracy to increase taxes
* New World Order Traitors
* Anti-Gun groups
* Islam
* Communism/socialism
* Anti-Zionism
* Black Agenda and many more!
Why do some idiotic people repeatedly bring up issues which cause confusion in the forum?
All of those issues stem from Feminism.
Feminism perpetuates the insanity in our society.
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We have a lot of pressing issues in common to address:
* Fag Agenda
* Abortionists
* Big Government Liberals / Conspiracy to increase taxes
* New World Order Traitors
* Anti-Gun groups
* Islam
* Communism/socialism
* Anti-Zionism
* Black Agenda and many more!
Why do some idiotic people repeatedly bring up issues which cause confusion in the forum?
All of those issues stem from Feminism.
Feminism perpetuates the insanity in our society.
Sounds to me like the goals of the ACLU... I used to think that that organization was for the good. But I also thought the UN was for the good. Only when I grew up did I realize just how evil and perverted these organizations are. There is something deeply flawed about all liberalism, at least in my opinion. There are no universal rights without universal responsibility.
muman613
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A Jew who converted to Xtianity is still a Jew according to halachic (sp?) law if I am not mistaken, and obviously is still a Jew in terms of blood/genetics.
I imagine many people would have many differing opinions on this however...
Religion is a belief, not a genetic trait. You can't take DNA tests of random people and find out who's Jewish or not.
if that's true, then why are some genetic disorders, like Tay-Sachs, much more common with Jews than with other groups?
Because most Jews are decedents or partially descended from a small group of ancestors, there had never been mass conversions to the point of significantly diluting the Jewish ethnic roots. Nevertheless we are not defined by genetics but by religion.
The Maccabees did ;)
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A Jew who converted to Xtianity is still a Jew according to halachic (sp?) law if I am not mistaken, and obviously is still a Jew in terms of blood/genetics.
I imagine many people would have many differing opinions on this however...
Religion is a belief, not a genetic trait. You can't take DNA tests of random people and find out who's Jewish or not.
if that's true, then why are some genetic disorders, like Tay-Sachs, much more common with Jews than with other groups?
Because most Jews are decedents or partially descended from a small group of ancestors, there had never been mass conversions to the point of significantly diluting the Jewish ethnic roots. Nevertheless we are not defined by genetics but by religion.
The Maccabees did ;)
No they did not. It was a few generations later, (and they were not called the Maccabis), and what they did was not correct and their actions were spoken agains't by the leading sages, and on top of that the people they converted ended up backstabbing the Jews, because they were not really Jews, they were Edom, literally.
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A Jew who converted to Xtianity is still a Jew according to halachic (sp?) law if I am not mistaken, and obviously is still a Jew in terms of blood/genetics.
I imagine many people would have many differing opinions on this however...
Religion is a belief, not a genetic trait. You can't take DNA tests of random people and find out who's Jewish or not.
if that's true, then why are some genetic disorders, like Tay-Sachs, much more common with Jews than with other groups?
Because most Jews are decedents or partially descended from a small group of ancestors, there had never been mass conversions to the point of significantly diluting the Jewish ethnic roots. Nevertheless we are not defined by genetics but by religion.
The Maccabees did ;)
No they did not. It was a few generations later, (and they were not called the Maccabis), and what they did was not correct and their actions were spoken agains't by the leading sages, and on top of that the people they converted ended up backstabbing the Jews, because they were not really Jews, they were Edom, literally.
Thank you, I didn't know this.
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Tzvi, do you have a single keyword about this story that can be googled?
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A Jew who converted to Xtianity is still a Jew according to halachic (sp?) law if I am not mistaken, and obviously is still a Jew in terms of blood/genetics.
I imagine many people would have many differing opinions on this however...
Religion is a belief, not a genetic trait. You can't take DNA tests of random people and find out who's Jewish or not.
if that's true, then why are some genetic disorders, like Tay-Sachs, much more common with Jews than with other groups?
Because most Jews are decedents or partially descended from a small group of ancestors, there had never been mass conversions to the point of significantly diluting the Jewish ethnic roots. Nevertheless we are not defined by genetics but by religion.
The Maccabees did ;)
Are you reffering to the forced conversion of edomites by King Alexander Janai ?
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A Jew who converted to Xtianity is still a Jew according to halachic (sp?) law if I am not mistaken, and obviously is still a Jew in terms of blood/genetics.
I imagine many people would have many differing opinions on this however...
Religion is a belief, not a genetic trait. You can't take DNA tests of random people and find out who's Jewish or not.
if that's true, then why are some genetic disorders, like Tay-Sachs, much more common with Jews than with other groups?
Because most Jews are decedents or partially descended from a small group of ancestors, there had never been mass conversions to the point of significantly diluting the Jewish ethnic roots. Nevertheless we are not defined by genetics but by religion.
The Maccabees did ;)
Are you reffering to the forced conversion of edomites by King Alexander Janai ?
Before a longer time I have read about the Maccabees.
I remembered there was mentioned, that they proselytized actively.
But Tzvi wrote, that it was actually not the Maccabees, but followers of them.
I have the two books. I will read the whole story if I have some time. :)
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I have the two books. I will read the whole story if I have some time. :)
what 2 books are you referring to now?
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I have the two books. I will read the whole story if I have some time. :)
what 2 books are you referring to now?
1. book of Maccabees
2. book of Maccabees
They are part of the apocryphal section of Luther's bible translation. I think in the catholic bible they are too (but I am not shure).
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I hope not.... If so, perhaps they might tolerate a little education:
http://www.jews4judaism.org/index.php?option=com_docman&task=doc_download&gid=16&Itemid=47
and/or:
http://www.jews4judaism.org/index.php?option=com_docman&task=doc_download&gid=5&Itemid=47
and:
http://www.jews4judaism.org/index.php?option=com_docman&task=doc_download&gid=20&Itemid=47
;) O0
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I hope not.... If so, perhaps they might tolerate a little education:
http://www.jews4judaism.org/index.php?option=com_docman&task=doc_download&gid=16&Itemid=47
and/or:
http://www.jews4judaism.org/index.php?option=com_docman&task=doc_download&gid=5&Itemid=47
and:
http://www.jews4judaism.org/index.php?option=com_docman&task=doc_download&gid=20&Itemid=47
;) O0
This has NOTHING to do with the post or posts above.
What you are talking about is an answer to the question of the topic
" Any Messianic Jews on here?"
And you are saying you hope not. This is what they do.
Be clear. Do you expect people to start downloading PDFs because you misled them into thinking the context was something it wasn't!
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Oooopps, I downloaded them. Note to self, don't wear kippa to next JTF meeting.
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Of course I was responding to the question of the topic as that is normally what one does is it not?
"Be clear. Do you expect people to start downloading PDFs because you misled them into thinking the context was something it wasn't!"
I'm VERY clear as to what I've posted, if one cared to read the first line in every link: Jews4Judaism..... The PDF's are quite good if you'd be open minded enough to actually read them and inform yourself that is DIRECTLY related to the subject of this particular thread: Messianic "Jews" and my hopes that there aren't any here...
Further the statement made my Shamgar, if I am understanding you correctly, seems to be one of mockery and too insult as another who will not read about what it means to be a Jew not a Messianic "Jew". If I've misunderstood you... my sincere apologies. I detest Messianic "Jews"...
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MarZuta, if you felt that my comment to you was an insult, then I sincerely apologize. I would never insult an ally. As you can tell by my comment, I DID download them and I DID read them.
Yes, I am a Christian and do stronly believe in Jesus. But I don't convert Jews or anyone else for that matter. It is a full time job just to try and lead myself in a reightous life.
Much of my humor is "tongue in cheek", and I am sorry if it was misinterpreted.
Sham out!
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MarZutra is probably referring to my comment and mistakenly attributed it to you shamgar..
MarZutra- If you don't quote somebody then one has to suspect that you are responding to the posts above. If you are not, as you are not, then you should explicitly say what you are referring to.
You might want to explicitly say anyway.
i.e. Any messianic jews here? I hope not.. This is what they do - links follow.
Of course, your bad netiquette then made shamgar(a christian I presume) download your material, which is for jews, to counter missionaries.
It made me download some PDFs, which though very good, are of no immediate interest to me. And I wouldn't have wanted to download PDFs just for that.
If you have somebody's trust of your judgement, and you provide a link, then they may well look at it. In which case, you should be clear what it is.
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No worries Shamgar. Apologies accepted. ;) We have bigger fish to fry...
As with direct regards to q_q_, this is a Jewish forum where Judaism is one of, if not the moral guideline. I, personally, hold disdain for Messianic "Jews" as their entire agenda is to Missionize and convert the ignorant Jews away from their entire being to which those pdf files are to the ut-most level of importance.
No further commentary is needed with respect to this subject.
As Nik would say..... Ol-MarZutra out.... ;)
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While I am not Messianic, I know of someone who is on Paltalk. She kept speaking about her messiah and trying to "convert" me so to speak. Other Jews told me the messianic movement is a scam to steal Jewish souls, so i've always kept my distance. While she says she's pro Israel, I don't believe what she believes. No thanks for people who want to save my soul, i'm a Jew, not a Christian.
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No worries Shamgar. Apologies accepted. ;) We have bigger fish to fry...
As with direct regards to q_q_, this is a Jewish forum where Judaism is one of, if not the moral guideline. I, personally, hold disdain for Messianic "Jews" as their entire agenda is to Missionize and convert the ignorant Jews away from their entire being to which those pdf files are to the ut-most level of importance.
No further commentary is needed with respect to this subject.
As Nik would say..... Ol-MarZutra out.... ;)
That is not the point I made to you.
Do you think I am OK with missionaries? Myself yourself and JTF as an org, are all against missionizing to jews.
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Of course I was responding to the question of the topic as that is normally what one does is it not?
"Be clear. Do you expect people to start downloading PDFs because you misled them into thinking the context was something it wasn't!"
I'm VERY clear as to what I've posted, if one cared to read the first line in every link: Jews4Judaism..... The PDF's are quite good if you'd be open minded enough to actually read them and inform yourself that is DIRECTLY related to the subject of this particular thread: Messianic "Jews" and my hopes that there aren't any here...
Further the statement made my Shamgar, if I am understanding you correctly, seems to be one of mockery and too insult as another who will not read about what it means to be a Jew not a Messianic "Jew". If I've misunderstood you... my sincere apologies. I detest Messianic "Jews"...
Jews for Judaism is a good counter missionary movement that was of great help at my university back in 1997 when the Intervarsity Christian Fellowship group wanted to invite a "rabbi" of the messianic "jewish" movement to speak to our hillel about Jesus and the passover...I think I was one of the only Jews on campus who realized what they were up to and let them have it for their attempted deception on Jews who don't know better and other liberal self-hating Jews who actually thought it was a legitimate movement...ugh! But when the Jews for Judaism guy showed up, he set these liberals in the right spot and convinced them that JforJesus and "messianic Jews" were nothing more than deceptful missionaries aimed at converting unknowing Jews to Christianity...
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While I am not Messianic, I know of someone who is on Paltalk. She kept speaking about her messiah and trying to "convert" me so to speak. Other Jews told me the messianic movement is a scam to steal Jewish souls, so i've always kept my distance. While she says she's pro Israel, I don't believe what she believes. No thanks for people who want to save my soul, i'm a Jew, not a Christian.
Hi WI, I like your picture. What does the Hebrew above it say?
Thanks
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@Shamgar: it says "The spirit of the IDF"
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Are you sure this person was trying to proselytyze??? Maybe he just wanted to find some like minded Jews here, thats all......just my 2 cents is all....:)
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While I am not Messianic, I know of someone who is on Paltalk. She kept speaking about her messiah and trying to "convert" me so to speak. Other Jews told me the messianic movement is a scam to steal Jewish souls, so i've always kept my distance. While she says she's pro Israel, I don't believe what she believes. No thanks for people who want to save my soul, i'm a Jew, not a Christian.
Hi WI, I like your picture. What does the Hebrew above it say?
Thanks
It says "IDF Spirit"
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What no bomb strapped onto the koranimal kid? ;) Bastards!!
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What no bomb strapped onto the koranimal kid? ;) Bastards!!
Then it would be a Boom-by. :::D
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What no bomb strapped onto the koranimal kid? ;) Bastards!!
If anyone has photoshop skills, feel free to add it ;)
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Rabbi Kahane of blessed memory said, "We have Jews for Jesus...that's not the greatest tragedy. The greatest tragedy is Jews for nothing."
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Rabbi Kahane of blessed memory said, "We have Jews for Jesus...that's not the greatest tragedy. The greatest tragedy is Jews for nothing."
only because there are more jews for nothing, than there are jews for jesus.
And the talk where he gave that, he was talking to normal jews who were perhaps not that connected to judaism. That might have been a reform "temple" he was talking in. He talked about the 11th commandment "thou shalt melt". He was talking to jews who were heavily affected with their own cases of intermarriage. (only the orthodox are marrying in!),
He would never have said that in this situation, because in this situation, the issue is a christian missionary on the premises!
And so in this thread, the issue is not "jews for nothing".
The reason he said what he said to those jews.. was to open their eyes to the problem they were facing themselves. (which is also a problem that affects a larger number of jews, which is why it's a bigger problem - in that sense)
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Rabbi Kahane of blessed memory said, "We have Jews for Jesus...that's not the greatest tragedy. The greatest tragedy is Jews for nothing."
Look at the statistics of the next generation born to J4J and tell me they dont marry out? I think it is worse than regular assimilation because the children are so confused.
muman613
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Rabbi Kahane of blessed memory said, "We have Jews for Jesus...that's not the greatest tragedy. The greatest tragedy is Jews for nothing."
Look at the statistics of the next generation born to J4J and tell me they dont marry out? I think it is worse than regular assimilation because the children are so confused.
muman613
of course it's worse., on an individual level though.
But taking the jewish people are a whole, what is the big problem we face.. high levels of assimilation, the number is so high, that the lubavitcher rebbe referred to it as a spiritual holocaust.
the assimilation is amongst the non orthodox..
I vaguely recall that intermarriage overall is around 40%..in britain, and 60% in america.
if it weren't for the orthodox, particularly the charedim, it would be much more!
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Rabbi Kahane of blessed memory said, "We have Jews for Jesus...that's not the greatest tragedy. The greatest tragedy is Jews for nothing."
Look at the statistics of the next generation born to J4J and tell me they dont marry out? I think it is worse than regular assimilation because the children are so confused.
muman613
of course it's worse., on an individual level though.
But taking the jewish people are a whole, what is the big problem we face.. high levels of assimilation, the number is so high, that the lubavitcher rebbe referred to it as a spiritual holocaust.
the assimilation is amongst the non orthodox..
I vaguely recall that intermarriage overall is around 40%..in britain, and 60% in america.
if it weren't for the orthodox, particularly the charedim, it would be much more!
q_q,
I know this statistic and it terrifies me. My family has married out too. It is too sad to recall here. I am the only one who has done teshuva, and it may be too late to continue our family as Jews. Judaism is so important for the soul and it will not be lost. I am going the route of Orthodoxy but I need to find a community because where I am we can barely get a kosher minyan for Kaddish. Missionaries really are like Amalek in that they are attacking the weak links.
It is for this reason that I find what Chabad does to be so helpful to our faith. I believe the Chabad telethon is going to be on soon {they just mailed me a flyer}. I love my Chabad rabbi for many reasons, his kindness to my father when he visited {Dad got an aliyah :) }, his helping me learn to don tefillin, his wonderful Shabbatons and Purim parties, and last year Yom Kippur.
I think the only thing we can do is to do more mitzvahs which reach out to others. This is Chabads method, going out and helping Jews with their mitzvah vans. Help someone with a mezzuzah as a friend of mine has done numerous times. It is these kinds of mitzvahs which remind us who we are. It is believed that there is a great need for spirituality out there and we know that Judaism answers that need. I have learned so much about our great heritage, the Torah, and the Prophets, and the ideals of righteousness. Even when I was a young man I had these dreams. I had to stray from the path to realize the great prize which I was forsaking. My heritage which was encapsulated in my Name, the name which reminds me who I am.
muman613
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Why do some idiotic people repeatedly bring up issues which cause confusion in the forum?
CZ, I think that this person was a troll. Before coming up with this thread, WALK_STRONG a few weeks earlier making a thread asking "is it true that Chaim Ben Pesach is a convicted criminal?".
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One issue where Christians and Jews can easily agree on is intermarriage. Both of our faiths are losing huge numbers of our ranks to intermarriage. As a Gentile, I don't know enough about all the causes and factors behind Jewish intermarriage (other than rising secularity and conformity to surrounding cultures), but in Christians, it often happens when a Christian woman, either in desperation or thinking that she can convert him, marries a nonbelieving man (there are more Christian women than men, so there is a real gender bottleneck).
I strongly believe in the faiths remaining "equally yoked" to use a term of Paul's) and all JTFers should denounce intermarriage for all religions.
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Rabbi Kahane of blessed memory said, "We have Jews for Jesus...that's not the greatest tragedy. The greatest tragedy is Jews for nothing."
Look at the statistics of the next generation born to J4J and tell me they dont marry out? I think it is worse than regular assimilation because the children are so confused.
muman613
of course it's worse., on an individual level though.
But taking the jewish people are a whole, what is the big problem we face.. high levels of assimilation, the number is so high, that the lubavitcher rebbe referred to it as a spiritual holocaust.
the assimilation is amongst the non orthodox..
I vaguely recall that intermarriage overall is around 40%..in britain, and 60% in america.
if it weren't for the orthodox, particularly the charedim, it would be much more!
q_q,
I know this statistic and it terrifies me. My family has married out too. It is too sad to recall here. I am the only one who has done teshuva, and it may be too late to continue our family as Jews. Judaism is so important for the soul and it will not be lost. I am going the route of Orthodoxy but I need to find a community because where I am we can barely get a kosher minyan for Kaddish. Missionaries really are like Amalek in that they are attacking the weak links.
It is for this reason that I find what Chabad does to be so helpful to our faith. I believe the Chabad telethon is going to be on soon {they just mailed me a flyer}. I love my Chabad rabbi for many reasons, his kindness to my father when he visited {Dad got an aliyah :) }, his helping me learn to don tefillin, his wonderful Shabbatons and Purim parties, and last year Yom Kippur.
I think the only thing we can do is to do more mitzvahs which reach out to others. This is Chabads method, going out and helping Jews with their mitzvah vans. Help someone with a mezzuzah as a friend of mine has done numerous times. It is these kinds of mitzvahs which remind us who we are. It is believed that there is a great need for spirituality out there and we know that Judaism answers that need. I have learned so much about our great heritage, the Torah, and the Prophets, and the ideals of righteousness. Even when I was a young man I had these dreams. I had to stray from the path to realize the great prize which I was forsaking. My heritage which was encapsulated in my Name, the name which reminds me who I am.
muman613
fantastic that you survived and continue to survive the spiritual holocaust
even amongst secular jews, the main thing that prevents intermarriage is fear of parental dismay. As one anti religious secular jew once said(publically preaching to himself), "Intermarry - that's it, you're divorcing your parents" He said that to a few people, one of whome had a non-jewish girlfriend. 8 years later, that person that had a non-jewish girlfriend, has become a baal teshuva.
i'm no fan of mitzva mobiles - suppose they ask "did you put teffilin on this morning" to somebody that knows how, but -didn't- put on teffilin that morning, and doesn't want to advertise the fact. This can happen often in jewish areas, where they take their van anyway.
but I like the fact that they are available in far out places, and things like purim megillah reading are done at a few times. Often a quiet reading and a one for kids(or perhaps, parents with kids).
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One issue where Christians and Jews can easily agree on is intermarriage. Both of our faiths are losing huge numbers of our ranks to intermarriage. As a Gentile, I don't know enough about all the causes and factors behind Jewish intermarriage (other than rising secularity and conformity to surrounding cultures), but in Christians, it often happens when a Christian woman, either in desperation or thinking that she can convert him, marries a nonbelieving man (there are more Christian women than men, so there is a real gender bottleneck).
I strongly believe in the faiths remaining "equally yoked" to use a term of Paul's) and all JTFers should denounce intermarriage for all religions.
I was friends with a Christian girl in a chat room and she fell in love with a man from the same chat. He was a really nice person, but he followed a form of shamanism. I don't know whether he took drugs to communicate with spirits or not, but I didn't ask. Anyway, when I first met this girl, she was really devout and believed all the essential doctrines of Christianity. However as she got involved with this man, I saw her faith deteriorate. I told her the Bible said not to marry him, but she was in love and wouldn't listen to me.
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One issue where Christians and Jews can easily agree on is intermarriage. Both of our faiths are losing huge numbers of our ranks to intermarriage. As a Gentile, I don't know enough about all the causes and factors behind Jewish intermarriage (other than rising secularity and conformity to surrounding cultures), but in Christians, it often happens when a Christian woman, either in desperation or thinking that she can convert him, marries a nonbelieving man (there are more Christian women than men, so there is a real gender bottleneck).
I strongly believe in the faiths remaining "equally yoked" to use a term of Paul's) and all JTFers should denounce intermarriage for all religions.
I was friends with a Christian girl in a chat room and she fell in love with a man from the same chat. He was a really nice person, but he followed a form of shamanism. I don't know whether he took drugs to communicate with spirits or not, but I didn't ask. Anyway, when I first met this girl, she was really devout and believed all the essential doctrines of Christianity. However as she got involved with this man, I saw her faith deteriorate. I told her the Bible said not to marry him, but she was in love and wouldn't listen to me.
Oh this is a sad story. :(
I would never marry a non Christian women. I think I would have great problems to marry a Christian woman who don't agrees mostly with the reformed theology in it's pure Geneva form.
Family and religion have to be an unit.
Beside of the sin, this marriages are failing more often than natural marriages.