Any Messianic Jews on here?

[Zelhar]

Messianic Jews are not Jews.  Jews for Jesus are not Jews.  If you believe Jesus is your Messiah that makes you a Christian.  I don't understand why so called Messianic insist on calling themselves Jews.  Why can't they just say they are Christian and be proud of it? 

  If they have Jewish nationality by blood and faith in Christianity by mind... that makes them christian Jews.
They call themselves Jews because they are Jews by blood. But because they religion is not Judaism, that makes them messianic Jews.

You don't tell the Jews who is a Jew. Jewish religion and Jewish nation are one and the same.

[muman613]

Messianic Jews are not Jews.  Jews for Jesus are not Jews.  If you believe Jesus is your Messiah that makes you a Christian.  I don't understand why so called Messianic insist on calling themselves Jews.  Why can't they just say they are Christian and be proud of it? 

  If they have Jewish nationality by blood and faith in Christianity by mind... that makes them christian Jews.
They call themselves Jews because they are Jews by blood. But because they religion is not Judaism, that makes them messianic Jews.

You don't tell the Jews who is a Jew. Jewish religion and Jewish nation are one and the same.

Zelhar,

I would like to agree but there are Jews who claim to be atheists and those who believe in the false messiah. These people are walking on very shaky ground to call themselves religious Jews. Their faith is in stark opposition to the basic tenets of the Jewish faith. I consider these people to be heretics or apikores.

According to Wikipedia article : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apikores

Heresy in Orthodox Judaism (Hebrew: kefira or kefiro) is defined as which depart from the traditional Jewish principles of faith to be heretical. In addition, mainstream Orthodox Judaism holds that all Jews who reject the simple meaning of Maimonides' 13 principles of Jewish faith are heretics. However, there are those who hold that in today's day and age a person cannot be a heretic, only an ingnoramus.

muman613

PS: Yet even those who have gone down the path of heresy still can always repent and return. As such I must not cast too harsh a judgement on them. In my younger days I was far from the truth...

[Shamgar]

Thanks Muman. As always, I value your posts. When I retire in a couple more years I hope to become more of a scholar.

GBU

[Zevida]

Attempts to convert Jews is absolutely forbidden on this forum.

I wish myspace would adopt the same policy.  I've gotten messages from people before trying to convince me to see things their way.   Like I would go to myspace for religious guidance.

[Shamgar]

Attempts to convert Jews is absolutely forbidden on this forum.

I wish myspace would adopt the same policy.  I've gotten messages from people before trying to convince me to see things their way.   Like I would go to myspace for religious guidance.

One thing that can stir fear in any Christian?



A Jehovah Witness knocking on your front door bright and early on a Saturday morning...   

[GoIsraelGo!]

I have seen it posted a couple different ways on the forum, can someone explain what defines a Jew. Is it beliefs, blood/genetics, your parents, where you live or a combination of. Is someone that converts to Judaism the same as someone that is born a Jew?

Thanks

Hi Shamgar, here are a few questions answered to the best of my ability.

What defines a Jew? Judaism is a set of belief's followed by actions and good deed's.
Genetics determine what we look like, our health, ect.
Geography is a preference issue, for example there is no difference between American and Israelis Jews expect for Citizenship status.
Converts...converts are Jewish if they have an Orthodox conversion with Orthodox Rabbi's in attendance.
Who is Jewish...anyone that is born to a Jewish Mother...even converts are considered 100 percent Jewish if the conversion is done in accordance with Jewish Law.

                                                                                    Shalom from Dox

[Zevida]

One thing that can stir fear in any Christian?



A Hashem Witness knocking on your front door bright and early on a Saturday morning...   

Sweet!  Where can I sign up for that? 

[Shamgar]

http://www.watchtower.org/ 

Be careful, if you sign up you have to work on Saturdays...   

[Zevida]

http://www.watchtower.org/ 

Be careful, if you sign up you have to work on Saturdays...   

Wait, I wanted to witness for Hashem, not Jehovah. 

[Shamgar]

http://www.watchtower.org/ 

Be careful, if you sign up you have to work on Saturdays...   

Wait, I wanted to witness for Hashem, not Hashem. 

My statement was kind of tongue in cheek but it basically is true. I live outside of a large metro area and the Je hova Witnesses scour the neighborhoods on Saturday mornings trying to convert anyone they can to be a J Witness. They get dropped off in neighborhoods and have ankle length skirts or black jackets on, so when you see them coming down your road, you grab the kids and dog and run in the house, pull the shades and wait for them to go away. If they catch you outside they will stand there and witness to you for hours.

[Zevida]

http://www.watchtower.org/ 

Be careful, if you sign up you have to work on Saturdays...   

Wait, I wanted to witness for Hashem, not Hashem. 

Didn't realize that Je hovah would be replaced with Hashem!  I meant to say I wanted to witness for Hashem, not Je hovah.   

[Zelhar]

I would like to agree but there are Jews who claim to be atheists and those who believe in the false messiah. These people are walking on very shaky ground to call themselves religious Jews. Their faith is in stark opposition to the basic tenets of the Jewish faith. I consider these people to be heretics or apikores.

Actually believing in a false messiah isn't necessarily a Kfira- Rabbi Akiva believed that Bar Kuziva is the Messiah. The Kfira begins when the 'messiah' is dead and people keep believing he is the messiah and await his return.

PS: Yet even those who have gone down the path of heresy still can always repent and return. As such I must not cast too harsh a judgement on them. In my younger days I was far from the truth...

I am a secular Jew but I live the subject of who is a Jew for the Gdolim to determine. To the best of my knowledge a Jew who converts to another religion is Karet from klal Yisrael, and yet he always has an option to chose to return to Judaism and to Klal Yisrael but as long as he doesn't he is karet.

[q_q_]

the main heresy/unjewish belief  is for a jew to believe that he doesn't have to follow the torah commandments.

Of course, in jewish belief, there is and was no man-G-d..   In judaism, Worshipping a man, as a G-d, is forbidden , whether he is alive or dead. So that would also be a very heterical thing for a jew to believe.

[muman613]

I would like to agree but there are Jews who claim to be atheists and those who believe in the false messiah. These people are walking on very shaky ground to call themselves religious Jews. Their faith is in stark opposition to the basic tenets of the Jewish faith. I consider these people to be heretics or apikores.

Actually believing in a false messiah isn't necessarily a Kfira- Rabbi Akiva believed that Bar Kuziva is the Messiah. The Kfira begins when the 'messiah' is dead and people keep believing he is the messiah and await his return.

PS: Yet even those who have gone down the path of heresy still can always repent and return. As such I must not cast too harsh a judgement on them. In my younger days I was far from the truth...

I am a secular Jew but I live the subject of who is a Jew for the Gdolim to determine. To the best of my knowledge a Jew who converts to another religion is Karet from klal Yisrael, and yet he always has an option to chose to return to Judaism and to Klal Yisrael but as long as he doesn't he is karet.

You are correct, the problem with Christianity is its belief that he was Moshiach in light of the fact that he did not fufill the prophecies of what Moshiach needs to do. I dont think it is wrong to believe that a person is Moshiach if there is a chance they may succeed. Actually Rabbi Akiva had many reasons to believe that Bar Kochbah was Moshiach because he did sucessfully fight off the Romans for many years.


See this Chabad link for more info on Bar Kochba and the issue of Moshiach...

http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/101679/jewish/The-Personality-of-Mashiach.htm

From Aish:

http://www.aish.com/literacy/jewishhistory/Crash_Course_in_Jewish_History_Part_37_-_The_Bar_Kochba_Revolt.asp

From Aish site:
Jewish outrage at his actions led to one of the single greatest revolts of the Roman Era. Simon Bar Kosiba led the uprising, which began in full force in 132 CE.

For many years, historians did not write very much about Simon Bar Kosiba. But then, archeologists discovered some of his letters in Nahal Hever near the Dead Sea. If you go to the Israel Museum you can see these letters and they are absolutely fascinating. Some of them pertain to religious observance, because his army was a totally religious army. But they also contain a tremendous amount of historical facts. We learn that the Jews participating in the revolt were hiding out in caves. (These caves have also been found - full of belongings of Bar Kosiba's people. The belongings - pottery, shoes, etc. - are on display in the Israel Museum, and the caves, though bare, are open to tourists.)

From the letters and other historical data, we learn that in 132 CE, Bar Kosiba organized a large guerilla army and succeeded in actually throwing the Romans out of Jerusalem and Israel and establishing, albeit for a very brief period, an independent Jewish state. The Talmud (Sanhedrin 97b) states that he established an independent kingdom that lasted for two and half years.

Bar Kosiba's success caused many to believe -- among them Rabbi Akiva, one of the wisest and holiest of Israel's rabbis -- that he could be the Messiah. He was nicknamed "Bar Kochba" or "Son of Star," an allusion to a verse in the Book of Numbers (24:17): "there shall come a star out of Jacob." This star is understood to refer to the Messiah.

Bar Kochba did not turn out to be the Messiah, and later the rabbis wrote that his real name was Bar Kosiva meaning "Son of a Lie" -- highlighting the fact that he was a false Messiah.

muman613

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

Bar Kochba was the Moshiach, but then he failed (And I heard this already from a number of places, and also recently Judea also said the same in his Torah show).

[q_q_]

Bar Kochba was the Moshiach, but then he failed (And I heard this already from a number of places, and also recently Judea also said the same in his Torah show).

Not moshiach

PRESUMED MOSHIACH, yes . (for a torah jew that fights the wars of G-d, but as soon as he fails, we know the presumption was wrong)   

See RAMBAM hilchot melachim.

The RAMBAM is clear on this.

there is no way anybody would say he was moshiach

Presume means. suppose he is moshiach.

We can then see what conclusion it leads to.  And in this case, conclude whether he is or not..

presume is an assume x. It does not mean x is true.

[muman613]

Bar Kochba was the Moshiach, but then he failed (And I heard this already from a number of places, and also recently Judea also said the same in his Torah show).

Not moshiach

PRESUMED MOSHIACH, yes . (for a torah jew that fights the wars of G-d, but as soon as he fails, we know the presumption was wrong)   

See RAMBAM hilchot melachim.

The RAMBAM is clear on this.

there is no way anybody would say he was moshiach

Presume means. suppose he is moshiach.

We can then see what conclusion it leads to.  And in this case, conclude whether he is or not..

presume is an assume x. It does not mean x is true.

Tzvi,

Here is a link to RAMBAMS Hilchot Melachim - Laws concerning Kings...

http://www.sichosinenglish.org/books/mashiach/09.htm

It is very interesting reading...

The Messianic King will arise in the future and restore the Davidic Kingdom to its former state and original sovereignty. He will build the Sanctuary and gather the dispersed of Israel. All the laws will be re-instituted in his days as they had been aforetimes; sacrifices will be offered, and the Sabbatical years and Jubilee years will be observed fully as ordained by the Torah.

Anyone who does not believe in [Mashiach], or whoever does not look forward to his coming, denies not only [the teachings of] the other prophets but [also those] of the Torah and of Moses our Teacher. For the Torah attested to him, as it is said:

"G-d, your G-d, will return your captivity and have mercy on you. He will return and gather you [from all the nations whither G-d, your G-d, has scattered you]. If your banished shall be at the utmost end of the heavens [G-d, your G-d, will gather you from there].. and G-d, your G-d, will bring you [to the land that your fathers possessed, and you will possess it].."

.
.
.
3. Do not think that the Messianic King will have to perform signs and wonders and bring about novel things in the world, or resurrect the dead, and other such things. It is not so. This is seen from the fact that Rabbi Akiva was a great sage, of the sages of the Mishnah, and he was an armor-bearer of King Bar Koziba and said of him that he is the Messianic King: [R. Akiva] and all the wise men of his generation considered him to be the Messianic King until [Bar Koziba] was killed because of sins, and when he was killed they realized that he was not; but the sages had not asked him for any sign or wonder.

Thank you,
muman613

[muslimslayer0075995]

i had no idea (then again i am 13 i am not expected to do so) walkstrong tried to convert people ? ?!!!!!!

[q_q_]

i had no idea (then again i am 13 i am not expected to do so) walkstrong tried to convert people ? ?!!!!!!

not explicitly, but implicitly, and practically speaking, yes.

see my post about so-called "messianic jews". and the terms they use to make it not obvious that they are christians.

he basically wanted to socialise here with "messianic jews" i.e. jews that believe in jesus..  i.e. that follow christianity. This would encourage them to remain in it..

other than that he seemed quite likeable!

[muman613]

Hello,

Check out this post on my blog:

http://lgfsucks.wordpress.com/2008/07/22/the-real-messianic-jews/

Thank you,
muman613

[nopeaceforland]

What is a Messianic Jew, anyway? Let's call them for what they are: Christians. How can you possibly convert someone who isn't Jewish to begin with?

[muman613]

What is a Messianic Jew, anyway? Let's call them for what they are: Christians. How can you possibly convert someone who isn't Jewish to begin with?

There are people born Jewish who are missionized by J4J {JoosForJebus} to believe that their messiah was Moshiach. They still act like Jews, keep kosher, do mitzvahs, etc... But they think that the messiah has come and is coming back. Personally I find it sickening, but I have gotten in trouble before when I express this...

muman613


Check out this anti-missionary site : http://www.jewsforjudaism.org/

PPS: It is certainly possible for a non-Jew to convert to Judaism. I know this from personal experience. I know a man who converted to Orthodox Judaism {including getting the circumcision at age 50}.

[Zelhar]

i had no idea (then again i am 13 i am not expected to do so) walkstrong tried to convert people ? ?!!!!!!

not explicitly, but implicitly, and practically speaking, yes.

see my post about so-called "messianic jews". and the terms they use to make it not obvious that they are christians.

he basically wanted to socialise here with "messianic jews" i.e. jews that believe in jesus..  i.e. that follow christianity. This would encourage them to remain in it..

other than that he seemed quite likeable!

You know this from other posts of his or just from the one which started this thread ?

[q_q_]

i had no idea (then again i am 13 i am not expected to do so) walkstrong tried to convert people ? ?!!!!!!

not explicitly, but implicitly, and practically speaking, yes.

see my post about so-called "messianic jews". and the terms they use to make it not obvious that they are christians.

he basically wanted to socialise here with "messianic jews" i.e. jews that believe in jesus..  i.e. that follow christianity. This would encourage them to remain in it..

other than that he seemed quite likeable!

You know this from other posts of his or just from the one which started this thread ?

Others.

Not the one that started this thread.

Nevertheless, what he wanted to do (see his first post and his only post of this thread), is (rightly I think)  unacceptable here..

[Dr. Dan]

Messianic Jews are not Jews.  Jews for Jesus are not Jews.  If you believe Jesus is your Messiah that makes you a Christian.  I don't understand why so called Messianic insist on calling themselves Jews.  Why can't they just say they are Christian and be proud of it? 

  If they have Jewish nationality by blood and faith in Christianity by mind... that makes them christian Jews.
They call themselves Jews because they are Jews by blood. But because they religion is not Judaism, that makes them messianic Jews.

Judaism is a religion not a race...If one chooses jesus christ, they are christian and practicing christianity...there is no such thing as a Christian jew..that is an oxymoron!