Any Messianic Jews on here?

[muman613]

Messianic Jews are not Jews.  Jews for Jesus are not Jews.  If you believe Jesus is your Messiah that makes you a Christian.  I don't understand why so called Messianic insist on calling themselves Jews.  Why can't they just say they are Christian and be proud of it? 

  If they have Jewish nationality by blood and faith in Christianity by mind... that makes them christian Jews.
They call themselves Jews because they are Jews by blood. But because they religion is not Judaism, that makes them messianic Jews.

Judaism is a religion not a race...If one chooses jesus christ, they are christian and practicing christianity...there is no such thing as a Christian jew..that is an oxymoron!

Dan,

This is just your opinion. Halacha {Jewish Law} says that a person born of a Jewish mother is Jewish, even if he goes down the path of other religions. This has been the law since the days of Moses. But maybe you know better...

muman613

[muman613]

This is copied from  : http://www.torah.org/learning/perceptions/5760/shlach.html

1. Conceptually, what is a Jew?
2. What is the purpose of creation?
3. How is This World meant to fulfill the above?

Regarding the first question, there are very strict halachic definitions of who constitutes a "Jew," either through birth or conversion. Historically, there have ALWAY been those who have challenged the halachic definition of the Jew, but their ideas have been at best an opinion and misguided response to the TRUE definition as handed down throughout the generations. In the end, you can fool most of the people most of the time, but you can't fool G-d ANY of the time, and the halachic definition of a Jew came from HIM at Mt. Sinai via Moshe Rabbeinu.

However, conceptually, there is more to a Jew that what fulfills the halachic requirements. A Jew is supposed to be someone who views himself as only "passing through" This World, on the way to a more spiritually dynamic and fulfilling level of existence (Pirkei Avos 4:16). A Jew is someone who is supposed to fend off spiritual stagnation, forever enhancing his or her relationship with the Master of the Universe.

For THAT is the PURPOSE of creation. All of it. Every last detail and every last electron exists merely as a stage upon which man is supposed to exercise his free-will in pursuit of oneness with his Creator (Derech Hashem 1:2:1). The fact that so few people are aware of this, and even fewer approach life with this fundamental in mind, doesn't change the urgency of he need to do both.

How does one achieve this?

Wisdom. Wisdom is that knowledge which DIRECTLY leads and INSPIRES one to make the pursuit of G-d the top priority. You will notice that not all knowledge does this, and that some knowledge even seems to inspire just the opposite. Hence, whereas all wisdom is, by definition, knowledge, not all knowledge automatically constitutes wisdom, and one has to know the distinction between the two, and how to transform the former (knowledge) into the latter (wisdom).

The Torah's entire role is to teach us this crucial and godly ability, without which mankind becomes like a raft floating aimlessly and helplessly down a rushing river. Be it in the form of a narration, a story, or a mitzvah, the goal is the same: to train the mind to distinguish between simple knowledge and profound wisdom, and how to extract out of the former the latter.

By nature, the world should have been able to teach us this, and for some, it did. For, the Midrash teaches that:

When G-d created the world, He looked into the Torah like a blueprint. (Bereishis Rabbah 5:2)

Thus, the world, just like an actual building, is a three-dimensional expression of a multi-dimensional conceptual reality. One should, theoretically, be able to look at every last detail of physical creation and surmise Divine wisdom from within them.

However, with the exception of a few, very spiritually talented individuals, this has not be the case, and the physical world has been totally misread -- and, as a result, abused -- throughout our long and twisted history. Consequently, in the year 2448 from creation (1313 BCE), G-d handed over the set of "blueprints" to make our job of becoming wiser, a lot easier. Together with this "blueprint" of creation, the world is supposed to help us become wiser and closer to G-d!

Apparently, though, there is one place in the world where the Torah actually merges with the physical reality, making the lesson of life a matter of fact: Eretz Yisroel. Even today, in a world that has become exceedingly materialistic, Eretz Yisroel remains to be a physical projection of the Torah, even though so many who live on the land practice just the opposite, and try to undermine Torah.

However, this reality does not change the fact that a Jew who walks the land can directly connect to the Torah through the soil itself, or, by merely inhaling the air. For the sake of free-will, Jews have to be able to reject this phenomenal opportunity, just like as in the desert, when some turned against G-d and Moshe Rabbeinu, even as the Divine Presence hovered above their heads!

However, for the Jew who wants to be a Jew in the halachic and philosophical sense of the term, by constantly enhancing his or her relationship with his or her Creator, and use the Torah to do so, then such people can do so with far less steps, far fewer intermediaries by simply BEING in Eretz Yisroel, for ONLY in Eretz Yisroel does Torah, the land, and the World-to-Come merge and become one. To LEARN there, and to LIVE there, well, that's another level all together!

This is why rejection of Eretz Yisroel in this week's parshah is seen as rejection of G-d, and for that matter, the entire purpose of creation. For, anyone who truly wants to fulfill the purpose of creation and put their closeness to G-d above and beyond anything else in life, by definition, and, at the very least, has to yearn to become one with the land himself. And YEARNING to be there is the first step to getting the proper help from Heaven to fulfill that dream in both the halachic and philosophical sense.

As you see a Jew is born a Jew, or can convert to be a Jew. But once a Jew you are considered a Jew.

muman613

[Dr. Dan]

Messianic Jews are not Jews.  Jews for Jesus are not Jews.  If you believe Jesus is your Messiah that makes you a Christian.  I don't understand why so called Messianic insist on calling themselves Jews.  Why can't they just say they are Christian and be proud of it? 

  If they have Jewish nationality by blood and faith in Christianity by mind... that makes them christian Jews.
They call themselves Jews because they are Jews by blood. But because they religion is not Judaism, that makes them messianic Jews.

Judaism is a religion not a race...If one chooses jesus christ, they are christian and practicing christianity...there is no such thing as a Christian jew..that is an oxymoron!

Dan,

This is just your opinion. Halacha {Jewish Law} says that a person born of a Jewish mother is Jewish, even if he goes down the path of other religions. This has been the law since the days of Moses. But maybe you know better...

muman613

Let me rephrase...Someone who is Jewish who practices another religion, such that let's say for example, worships Jesus Christ....Might be a Jew, but is practicing the Christian religion.

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

What is a Messianic Jew, anyway? Let's call them for what they are: Christians. How can you possibly convert someone who isn't Jewish to begin with?

 They still act like Jews, keep kosher, do mitzvahs, etc...

  They say they do mitzvot, and they say they do only Biblical and not Rabbinic Mitzvot, BUT if one looks at what they do and do not do they will see that they do the exact opposite. They have Hannukah (which is completly a Rabbinic Mitzva), yett they break Shabb-t which is a Biblical Mitzva (and they dont really do mitzvot though, besides just add more holidays to themselves- you know- whatever they feel comfortable with doing they do, whatever is demanding and not comfortable of course the "Rabbis made it up"

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

Chaimfan's two cents (as an evangelical Christian) in response to various subtopics in this thread:

1: It's extrarodinarily hard to believe that WALK_STRONG did not know that this would be an incendiary and enormously offensive topic and that talking about missionizing is forbidden. I suppose it is possible, but Chaim has made our rules clear to everybody. We better watch the forum for the next few days to see if there are trolling attempts. I myself was very suspicious of WS when he came on a few weeks ago, all of a sudden, out-of-the-blue asking if Chaim was "indeed a criminal".  That thread of his casts grave doubt on the notion that he just happened to be ignorant of our rules about missionizing.

2: JFJ is indeed a Messianic Jewish group, but it is not the only one. In other words, all JFJ members are Messianics, but not all Messianics are members of JFJ. There are other MJ organizations, as well as some MJs who are not members of any organized group at all.

3: The orthodox Christian view, strictly speaking, is not that one must "give up" Judaism, or that Judaism is obsolete, but rather that Jesus is the Messiah for all mankind, and that observing halacha is not the literal basis for entry to heaven. For instance, Christians believe that the great patriarchs of the faith, such as King David, were saved by faith in and love for G-d, and that his obedience of G-d's commandments was evidence of this; likewise, Christians today don't believe that you are saved by abstinence before marriage or going to church, but rather that the above are evidence of salvation. (I realize that the Jewish view differs greatly from this--I was just stating the historical Christian view for the purpose of clarification). Obviously, I have no idea what exactly WALK_STRONG believes, and I'm not gonna find out! 

4: As a Christian, I am ignorant of what the actual Jewish description of the Messiah is and what the Jewish requirements of the Messiah are. I do know that several Jews believe that the Lubavitcher Rebbe was the Messiah, but know nothing about the specific arguments for and against him. Could somebody kindly link me to some good websites explaining qualifications for Messiahship, and specifically the arguments for and against the Lubavitcher rebbe being the Messiah? (Sidenote: Regardless of whether he was the Messiah, I do believe that the Lubavitcher rebbe was one of the holiest men who ever lived.) Thank you!

Chaimfan

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

Truthseeker, I am certain that you're a great person, but it's against the policies of the forum to talk about these things. It can get very offensive to Jews. I sent you a private message--did you receive it?

[Lisa]

Truthseeker, while Christianity and Judaism have similarities, they also have differences.  Furthermore, the two religions separated a long time ago.  I don't think I need to go into all the differences here.  You are free to practice whatever makes you happy.  But the expression Christian Jew, or Jewish Christian is considered an oxymoron by Jews, regardless of our level of observance. 

[Ulli]

JfJ is not welcome here, so if there were they should leave.

Why? Gentiles welcome, Jews welcome, but Jews that believe in Christ  not...
Can you explain?

We believe in cooperation and not proselytism of the other side.

We can't work together if the counterpart has to give up his identety, his believe, his religion.

In my oppinion it is not possible to be a Jew and a Christian in the same time.

The whole ceremonial part of the law of Moses is abolished in Christianity.

Actually it is a sin according to Paulus letter to the Galatians to stick to it, specially if you seek salvation in it.

Catholics claim the same that Jews claim, that one time a xyz every time xyz.

In my oppinion is there a parting of the ways.

Either you go this way or you go that way.

No mixing is here allowed.

It is righteous and honest to keep "Jews that believe in Christ" away from this forum.

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

Truthseeker, please reply. Neither of us are upset with you, and in fact you are probably a really cool person to get to know. But we do not want to offend our Jewish brothers and sisters, who don't believe that Jesus is the Messiah, or our dear Chairman Chaim Ben Pesach. I already PMd you if you want to talk offline about Christianity/Judaism/MJs. That's all.

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

Actually it is a sin according to Paulus letter to the Galatians to stick to it, specially if you seek salvation in it.

Sorry for the technical tangent here, but Paul did not say it is wrong to keep Jewish law. He said that it is not the basis by which salvation is achieved.

Anyway, what Pheasant said is correct. This is an organization where people of many different faiths work together for a common goal, not where religious particulars are debated or witnessing takes place.

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

Actually it is a sin according to Paulus letter to the Galatians to stick to it, specially if you seek salvation in it.

Sorry for the technical tangent here, but Paul did not say it is wrong to keep Jewish law. He said that it is not the basis by which salvation is achieved.

 So wait who are you following Jesus or Paul? If Jesus (in one place) said to follow the Rabbis and follow what they say (and of-course they say to keep the Commandments), and then Paul says to just believe and that is how salvation is given, then who are christians following jesus or paul?

[AsheDina]

  TruthSeeker- Whats the deal here? This is an ORTHODOX Jewish Forum- #1. 
  #2. It is SAVE AMERICA, Jews and Gentiles Welcome (and decent people)
  #3. Fine, be whatever you are, but there is NO argument OR debate.
  #4. I can tell that you are a LOVING person, so spread the love, by just loving, and thats all that is necessary.
  #5. We ARE losing this nation, in the scheme of things- YOU, and I, really are nobody's.
  #6. As a person that has a history of Forceful indoctrination, I get REALLY SUPER P'od when this gets brought up, I will NOT be FORCED into ANYTHING BY ANYBODY. I have made NO bones, that I LIKE reading the N.T. &  Thats all. Thanks for UNDERSTANDING.  THIS is a PAINFUL subject for ME. VERY PAINFUL.

[Ulli]

Actually it is a sin according to Paulus letter to the Galatians to stick to it, specially if you seek salvation in it.

Sorry for the technical tangent here, but Paul did not say it is wrong to keep Jewish law. He said that it is not the basis by which salvation is achieved.

 So wait who are you following Jesus or Paul? If Jesus (in one place) said to follow the Rabbis and follow what they say (and of-course they say to keep the Commandments), and then Paul says to just believe and that is how salvation is given, then who are christians following jesus or paul?

Christians understand the gospels through the letters of Paul.

[Dr. Dan]

Chaimfan's two cents (as an evangelical Christian) in response to various subtopics in this thread:

1: It's extrarodinarily hard to believe that WALK_STRONG did not know that this would be an incendiary and enormously offensive topic and that talking about missionizing is forbidden. I suppose it is possible, but Chaim has made our rules clear to everybody. We better watch the forum for the next few days to see if there are trolling attempts. I myself was very suspicious of WS when he came on a few weeks ago, all of a sudden, out-of-the-blue asking if Chaim was "indeed a criminal".  That thread of his casts grave doubt on the notion that he just happened to be ignorant of our rules about missionizing.

2: JFJ is indeed a Messianic Jewish group, but it is not the only one. In other words, all JFJ members are Messianics, but not all Messianics are members of JFJ. There are other MJ organizations, as well as some MJs who are not members of any organized group at all.

3: The orthodox Christian view, strictly speaking, is not that one must "give up" Judaism, or that Judaism is obsolete, but rather that Jesus is the Messiah for all mankind, and that observing halacha is not the literal basis for entry to heaven. For instance, Christians believe that the great patriarchs of the faith, such as King David, were saved by faith in and love for G-d, and that his obedience of G-d's commandments was evidence of this; likewise, Christians today don't believe that you are saved by abstinence before marriage or going to church, but rather that the above are evidence of salvation. (I realize that the Jewish view differs greatly from this--I was just stating the historical Christian view for the purpose of clarification). Obviously, I have no idea what exactly WALK_STRONG believes, and I'm not gonna find out! 

4: As a Christian, I am ignorant of what the actual Jewish description of the Messiah is and what the Jewish requirements of the Messiah are. I do know that several Jews believe that the Lubavitcher Rebbe was the Messiah, but know nothing about the specific arguments for and against him. Could somebody kindly link me to some good websites explaining qualifications for Messiahship, and specifically the arguments for and against the Lubavitcher rebbe being the Messiah? (Sidenote: Regardless of whether he was the Messiah, I do believe that the Lubavitcher rebbe was one of the holiest men who ever lived.) Thank you!

Chaimfan

very thoughtfully written  

[Dr. Dan]

JfJ is not welcome here, so if there were they should leave.

Why? Gentiles welcome, Jews welcome, but Jews that believe in Christ  not...
Can you explain?

not sure if you are the type to defend this movement of "Jews" who worship Jesus as the messiah, but i will give you the benefit of the doubt that you simply don't know or are playing devil's advocate.

it is my opinion that it is good for christians to worship as they feel fit in their hearts even to jesus if it makes them better people. however judaism is a whole other theology.  jesus would make no sense by the way judaism has evolved.  it even stands as contradiction to jewish theology for a jew to truely be both.  it's impossible and quite sckizophrenic.

i'm not bashing christianity.  it is a good religion, in my opinion, for christians. Judaism is a completely different religion.

[Dr. Dan]

Walk Strong is banned. Attempts to convert Jews is absolutely forbidden on this forum.

I think she (or he?) just wanted to find out how many JFJ are here, not to convert. I love this site! It's very informational and very intelligent. I'm christian Jew who loves Israel and agrees with this org. in many topics.
So, I must leave and never comeback just because I'm Jew that be lives in Christ?

truthseeker...let me inform you of something:  if your mother is jewish, then by jewish law you would be jewish.  if you worship christ you arent practicing judaism.... you are practicing an "alien" religion.  you are doing a very wrong thing if you are truely a jew.

[Lisa]

As I posted earlier, Judaism and Christianity separated a long time ago, and there are big differences.  So as Jew I think it's safe to say that most Jews would looks suspiciously upon anyone calling him/herself a Christian Jew.  It tends to come across to Jews as a sneaky way of missionizing. 

[Rubystars]

When I believe someone genuinely doesn't know how it comes off, and they make an early post with the word messianic in it or something like that, I usually delete the post and tell them that it's not allowed to bring that kind of stuff up on this board, and I explain why in a gentle way. I've done that a couple of times already and I think in the majority of cases people just don't know any better and that's why they post that stuff.

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

So wait who are you following Jesus or Paul? If Jesus (in one place) said to follow the Rabbis and follow what they say (and of-course they say to keep the Commandments), and then Paul says to just believe and that is how salvation is given, then who are christians following jesus or paul?

Christians consider Jesus and Paul to be equally canonical.

[Rubystars]

So wait who are you following Jesus or Paul? If Jesus (in one place) said to follow the Rabbis and follow what they say (and of-course they say to keep the Commandments), and then Paul says to just believe and that is how salvation is given, then who are christians following jesus or paul?

Christians consider Jesus and Paul to be equally canonical.

Sometimes I question some of the things Paul wrote, but that's another topic altogether. lol

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

very thoughtfully written  

Thanks!

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

So wait who are you following Jesus or Paul? If Jesus (in one place) said to follow the Rabbis and follow what they say (and of-course they say to keep the Commandments), and then Paul says to just believe and that is how salvation is given, then who are christians following jesus or paul?

Christians consider Jesus and Paul to be equally canonical.

  How are they equal if the opinion of paul is taken over Haysus's? Wouldn't that mean that Paul is higher and more authoritative then him?

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

PM me.

[Vito]

A Jew who converted to Xtianity is still a Jew according to halachic (sp?) law if I am not mistaken, and obviously is still a Jew in terms of blood/genetics.

I imagine many people would have many differing opinions on this however...

Religion is a belief, not a genetic trait. You can't take DNA tests of random people and find out who's Jewish or not.

[t_h_j]

A Jew who converted to Xtianity is still a Jew according to halachic (sp?) law if I am not mistaken, and obviously is still a Jew in terms of blood/genetics.

I imagine many people would have many differing opinions on this however...

Religion is a belief, not a genetic trait. You can't take DNA tests of random people and find out who's Jewish or not.

if that's true, then why are some genetic disorders, like Tay-Sachs, much more common with Jews than with other groups?