בס''ד
There is something that has bothered me for a long time: We have some members who are under the impression that we are forbidden to curse even self-hating Jewish traitors because they are "our fellow Jews".
Not only are we obligated to curse them, we are actually obligated to kill them. But we in JTF are so moderate and so law-abiding that we do not kill these traitors even though under Torah law, that is our obligation. We JTFers are simply too moderate and too law-abiding to do such a thing........
Jews who seek to harm their own people bezadon (intentionally), or who support their people's enemies, or who endanger Jewish lives (rodfim) - these Jews are supposed to be cursed, and are supposed to be killed. We JTFers happen to be too moderate to do this, but this is Torah law.......
Until Jewish traitors fear for their lives, the Jewish people will always face grave perils.
"Zachor Et Asher Asa Lecha Amalek BaDerech Betzetchem MiMitzrayim"
"Remember what Amalek did to you on your way out of Egypt! (Dvarim 25)"
On the Shabbat that precedes Purim, two Torah scrolls are taken from the ark; one for the regular parsha and one for the Maftir - 'Remember what Amalek did to you' (Dvarim 25). Because of this reading, it is called, Shabbat Zachor (Remember). The Haftorah also deals with Amalek.
There is a mitzvah in the Torah to remember Amalek and his descendants and to orally recall their iniquity. We are to tell our children in each generation what the people of Amalek did to us during our departure from Egypt. This mitzvah will be fulfilled completely only when we shall have caused Amalek's memory to perish, and their name to be erased from the world, together with the slightest remnant of anything that bears their name. As the Torah says: 'Remember what Amalek did to you on the way, upon your departure from Egypt'... 'You shall erase the memory of Amalek from beneath the heavens, you shall not forget.' Upon which the Sages have expounded: 'Remember,' orally - 'You shall not forget,' in your heart.
To properly fulfill this commandment, the Sages have prescribed the public reading of this passage from a Torah scroll, once every year, on the Shabbat which precedes Purim - so that the 'wiping-out' of Amalek might be adjacent to the 'wiping-out' of Haman, the latter being a descendant of Amalek.
http://www.chabad.org/kids/article_cdo/aid/8968/jewish/Negative-Commandment-317.htm
PS: Negative mitzvah 317
Leviticus 19:14 "You shall not curse (even) the deaf"
We are forbidden to curse any Jew.
Though this Negative Mitzvah mentions the deaf, it applies to all people.
We may think that expressing anger or frustration against a deaf person and uttering a curse is not so bad because the deaf person will not be able to hear us anyway!
However, the Torah cautions us never to curse anyone, neither a deaf person, nor even people who can hear.
Muman, forgive me for being so blunt, but what you have posted from some site is ridiculous beyond all words.
We are not allowed to curse any Jew?
We curse huge numbers of Jews three times a day in the Shmone Esre. We pray for their violent death, and we pray that they not be forgiven in this world or the next. We curse all "malshinim" (informers) and "minim" (heretics).
That means we are commanded to curse traitors like Yitzchak Rabin, Shimon Peres, Arik Sharon, Yossi Beilin and other Israeli informers and heretics who bring death and destruction upon their own people. And we are commanded to curse traitors in the galut (exile) like Steven Spielberg, Barbara Walters, Barbara Streisand, Mort Zuckerman, Rahm Emanuel, Gary Ackerman and all other vermin of Semitic descent that bring death and destruction upon their brothers and sisters.
Let me reiterate that the root cause of most of our problems is our insane failure to hate, curse and ostracize all Jewish informers and traitors. That is why we had a holocaust.
From what I remember reading Rabbi Kahane ZTL HYD book's, Rabbi Kahane NEVER stood for allowing non-Jews cursing and/or belitting other Jews. Infact Rabbi Kahane writes how he stood by protecting a "self-hating" Jew even when he didn't want his protection becuase the Rav writes that it is a hillul Hashem for allowing a non-Jew to hurt (either financially, or physically, or in any other way), a fellow Jew. (Read the story of the JDL).
From what I remember reading Rabbi Kahane ZTL HYD book's, Rabbi Kahane NEVER stood for allowing non-Jews cursing and/or belitting other Jews. Infact Rabbi Kahane writes how he stood by protecting a "self-hating" Jew even when he didn't want his protection becuase the Rav writes that it is a hillul Hashem for allowing a non-Jew to hurt (either financially, or physically, or in any other way), a fellow Jew. (Read the story of the JDL).
Don't distort things. That was a situation in which the rabbi defended a deformed shul (even though he himself did not recognize it as a shul) from shvartza pieces of excrement. Chaim can correct me if I am wrong.
Tzvi, are you a Zionist?
Lisa and several others have asked you this question many times before, in some variation or another, and you have never given a really convincing answer.
Since Rav Kahane ZTL HYD didn't even recognize the shul, he still defended it from non-Jews.Nice try Tzvi. He was defending Jews from an attack by Nazis, not forbidding anyone from criticizing evil Jews. If righteous blacks like Alan Keyes and Pastor Manning were to denounce the Deformed synagogue for selling out Israel and supporting Barack Hussein Obama, you and I both know he would be right there with them.
Since Rav Kahane ZTL HYD didn't even recognize the shul, he still defended it from non-Jews.Nice try Tzvi. He was defending Jews from an attack by Nazis, not forbidding anyone from criticizing evil Jews. If righteous blacks like Alan Keyes and Pastor Manning were to denounce the Deformed synagogue for selling out Israel and supporting Barack Hussein Obama, you and I both know he would be right there with them.
Tzvi, are you a zionist? It never really occurred to me to even ask someone that on a kahanist forum. It should be no big deal at all to say yes. Your refusal to answer speaks volumes. If you are not a zionist, it just proves that you have come here the whole time to cause trouble..
If Zionist means that Jews should control Israel, kick the Arabs out, make a real Jewish government, then YES. Anyway this is again a personal thing. The way you lie and twist things (amoung the many other things you do) speaks volumes about you. You lie and distort things. Now you are trying to get back together with CF after you were already exposed to him, nice try. I dont know maybe he will fall for it, but at least it was proven once again the type of person you are (and this is to your best friend).No, this is the real "nice try". And you have still refused to answer me, DownwithIslam, and Lisa. What you just said is not an answer that affirms that you are a Zionist. In fact, you took great pains to qualify what "Zionist" means to you. Answer the question yes or no: do you believe that a renewed Jewish state should exist in the world prior to the Maschiach?
Tzvi, are you a zionist? It never really occurred to me to even ask someone that on a kahanist forum. It should be no big deal at all to say yes. Your refusal to answer speaks volumes. If you are not a zionist, it just proves that you have come here the whole time to cause trouble..
If Zionist means that Jews should control Israel, kick the Arabs out, make a real Jewish government, then YES. Anyway this is again a personal thing. The way you lie and twist things (amoung the many other things you do) speaks volumes about you. You lie and distort things. Now you are trying to get back together with CF after you were already exposed to him, nice try. I dont know maybe he will fall for it, but at least it was proven once again the type of person you are (and this is to your best friend).
Tzvi, are you a zionist? It never really occurred to me to even ask someone that on a kahanist forum. It should be no big deal at all to say yes. Your refusal to answer speaks volumes. If you are not a zionist, it just proves that you have come here the whole time to cause trouble..
If Zionist means that Jews should control Israel, kick the Arabs out, make a real Jewish government, then YES. Anyway this is again a personal thing. The way you lie and twist things (amoung the many other things you do) speaks volumes about you. You lie and distort things. Now you are trying to get back together with CF after you were already exposed to him, nice try. I dont know maybe he will fall for it, but at least it was proven once again the type of person you are (and this is to your best friend).
If you continue to try to start fights between friends and long time members of this forum. I will post what you told me numerous times about Chaim Ben Pesach. You have been warned. I have taken the moral high ground so far and have not posted even a snippet of the evil drek you have sent me.
One of the Admins (thank G-d, Im not sure which one though) checked my P.M's (with my permission) and send it to C.F. which exposed the truth, and got you pissed.Clearly you have been partaking in some strong ganja and hallucinating. That event only occurred in your own fevered imagination.
Once again this thread has drifted off into personal insult and lashon Hara... It is wrong and I wish DWI and CF would take it somewhere else. I don't think Tzvi is anti-zionistic. I have witnessed people who are good Jews being namecalled and belittled. I will say once again that I protest this kind of conversation. There is always a good way to express contrary opinions without resorting to namecalling and insults.Muman, it is clear you disagree with Chaim on this matter. Maybe you should just avoid threads like this that get you so upset.
Sometimes I think this forum is composed of 12 year old kids who don't know how to get along...
Once again this thread has drifted off into personal insult and lashon Hara... It is wrong and I wish DWI and CF would take it somewhere else. I don't think Tzvi is anti-zionistic. I have witnessed people who are good Jews being namecalled and belittled. I will say once again that I protest this kind of conversation. There is always a good way to express contrary opinions without resorting to namecalling and insults.Muman, it is clear you disagree with Chaim on this matter. Maybe you should just avoid threads like this that get you so upset.
Sometimes I think this forum is composed of 12 year old kids who don't know how to get along...
From what I remember reading Rabbi Kahane ZTL HYD book's, Rabbi Kahane NEVER stood for allowing non-Jews cursing and/or belitting other Jews. Infact Rabbi Kahane writes how he stood by protecting a "self-hating" Jew even when he didn't want his protection becuase the Rav writes that it is a hillul Hashem for allowing a non-Jew to hurt (either financially, or physically, or in any other way), a fellow Jew. (Read the story of the JDL).
We have a natural tendency to view and judge other people’s actions and intentions by dragging them down to our level. I once heard that this can be compared to a toddler who was unceremoniously locked out of the bathroom because he insisted on playing with the water in the toilet bowl. Imagine the frustrated, angry thoughts the toddler entertains when seeing others go into the bathroom and lock the door behind them. “Just because they’re bigger than me, they can go in and play with the water whenever they want...”
We ‘toilet-splashers’ must realize that we don’t fathom the true intentions of great people involved in disputes ...
Rav Abraham Twerski tells of the seeming animosity that existed between Rabbi Boruch of Mezhibozh and Rabbi Levi Yitzchok of Berditchev. Rav Boruch was sharply critical of Rav Levi Yitzchok and would never miss an opportunity to mock and belittle him.
One time, two merchants traveled from Mezhibozh to Berditchev for business. While there, they wanted to see Rav Levi Yitzchok for themselves. They entered his house and found him immersed in prayer. Suddenly, he ran over to one of the merchants, grabbed him by the jacket and said, “What can the angel Michael possibly say about you?!” and then returned to his prayers.
When they returned to Mezhibozh, they rushed to tell Rav Boruch about Rav Levi Yitzchok’s latest bizarre behavior, planning to give him more material to scoff at. However, when the merchant related the entire story, Rav Boruch began to shout at him, “You thief! Return the money you stole immediately!” The man was shocked into admitting that he had, in fact, stolen money from his companion.
Rav Boruch then explained. “When a Jew sins, the angel Michael pleads his case before the Heavenly Court. If a poor person steals, Michael alleges that the persons impoverished state distorted his judgment and caused him to act out of desperation. However, when a wealthy person, such as you, steals, what plea can he enter for you? That is what Rav Levi Yitzchok meant.”
He then explained further. “Rav Levi Yitzchok is a tzaddik {righteous individual} whose spiritual sensitivity allows him to perceive everything. Why do I criticize him? Jews constantly pray for the coming of the Moshiach {Messiah}, the rebuilding of the Beis HaMikdash {Holy Temple} and the restoration of the Divine Service. Some of the angels say to Hashem, “Who needs the Temple? The prayer and service of Rav Levi Yitzchok is as great as that which the Kohen Gadol {High Priest} performed in the Holy of Holies.’ I criticize him to show that I am not satisfied with him as a replacement for the Kohen Gadol -- we need the redemption and the Temple rebuilt!”
One of the Admins (thank G-d, Im not sure which one though) checked my P.M's (with my permission) and send it to C.F. which exposed the truth, and got you pissed.Clearly you have been partaking in some strong ganja and hallucinating. That event only occurred in your own fevered imagination.
Muman, Tzvi jumped into this thread attacking Chaim's position. Did you notice:Quote from: Tzvi Ben RoshelFrom what I remember reading Rabbi Kahane ZTL HYD book's, Rabbi Kahane NEVER stood for allowing non-Jews cursing and/or belitting other Jews. Infact Rabbi Kahane writes how he stood by protecting a "self-hating" Jew even when he didn't want his protection becuase the Rav writes that it is a hillul Hashem for allowing a non-Jew to hurt (either financially, or physically, or in any other way), a fellow Jew. (Read the story of the JDL).
He was not a part of this thread until he made himself a part of it.
Now, while on the subject of cursing, I believe you once accused me of cursing you privately (something that has not happened, even mentally). That was completely unwarranted and I am still awaiting your apology.
בס''דI completely understand your point of view Mr.Chaim.I personally couldn't kill someone but it does makes me mad when i see what other Serbs are doing to my country after so many lives has been lost to build it!No just in recant history but in past too millions and millions have been lost...Our first state has been lost Kosovo after we lost all army and the King and all knights in 1386 in battle of Kosovo then centuries after centuries of battles and pride and we loose it NOW...unbelievable!But yet again it may be only solution to our problems,get rid of the scum and take over the country and give it back to the people!That's why i was glad when our premier Zoran Dindjic was killed because HE was traitor just like our president today!NOW i see how much you love your country Mr.Chaim!
There is something that has bothered me for a long time: We have some members who are under the impression that we are forbidden to curse even self-hating Jewish traitors because they are "our fellow Jews".
Not only are we obligated to curse them, we are actually obligated to kill them. But we in JTF are so moderate and so law-abiding that we do not kill these traitors even though under Torah law, that is our obligation. We JTFers are simply too moderate and too law-abiding to do such a thing.
But Moshe Rabeinu (Moses) was not too moderate to do what the Torah commands. He ordered the Leviim to kill 3000 golden calf worshippers in the Sinai. The Leviim took their swords out and killed every one of them.
And Pinchas was not too moderate to do what the Torah commands. He killed Zimri who was Nasi Beit Av (President of the Rabbinic Court) for the tribe of Shimon. And Pinchas acted without authorization from Moshe or the other rabbinic authorities. Why did Pinchas kill Zimri? Because Zimri had a relationship with a woman from an enemy nation. Until Pinchas the vigilante acted, tens of thousands of Hebrews were killed in the desert by a plague that Hashem initiated to punish them for tolerating Zimri's relationship. But as soon as Pinchas the zealot killed Zimri and his girlfriend, the plague ended. Hashem praised Pinchas in the Torah ("he was zealous for My name's sake") and promised that Pinchas' seed would be the priests of the Holy Temple forever because of this blessed deed. In other words, Pinchas killed "his fellow Jew" and was eternally blessed by Hashem Himself.
And Moshe again sought to kill "his fellow Jews" when Korach and his congregation disputed Moshe's leadership. Moshe prayed to Hashem for the earth to swallow up Korach and his followers. Which is exactly what happened - Hashem granted Moshe's curse and killed every one of Korach's followers.
And the Macabees started their revolt by killing "their fellow Jews" - thousands of mityavnim (Hellenists) were slaughtered by the Macabees. After this slaughter of Jewish traitors, Hashem granted the Macabees the miracle of the Chanukah oil as a sign that what the Macabees had done and were continuing to do was indeed G-d's will.
Chazal (the Talmudic rabbinic authorities that we are required to follow) instituted the prayer against Jewish malshinim (informers) that we must repeat three times a day. That prayer calls for the violent death of Jewish traitors, and curses Jewish traitors with the ultimate curses.
Now it is true that we cannot curse our fellow Jews who are merely mistaken or wrong or who are sinning bishgaga (unintentionally or out of ignorance). But Jews who seek to harm their own people bezadon (intentionally), or who support their people's enemies, or who endanger Jewish lives (rodfim) - these Jews are supposed to be cursed, and are supposed to be killed. We JTFers happen to be too moderate to do this, but this is Torah law.
I also know that some of our members have unintentionally engaged in cursing where it is forbidden. It is absolutely forbidden to curse Torah scholars, for example, even if the Torah scholars are mistaken. It is also forbidden to curse Jews unless they have clearly crossed the line of treason.
But once Jews have crossed the line of treason, not to curse them is a terrible sin. Six million Jews were murdered in the holocaust because we tolerated traitor Jewish leaders. And to this day, Jewish traitors in politics, the news media, Hollywood, the business world are unafraid to openly stab their own people in the back. They know that they have nothing to fear. This is why little Israel is in so much danger, this is why American Jews have mostly disappeared through assimilation, and this is why we lost millions of Soviet Jews who assimilated and are no longer Jewish. Until Jewish traitors fear for their lives, the Jewish people will always face grave perils.
Muman, forgive me for being so blunt, but what you have posted from some site is ridiculous beyond all words.My i just add Richard Holbrook,Madeline Albright,Wesley Clark,Tom Lentos and Joe Lieberman.
We are not allowed to curse any Jew?
We curse huge numbers of Jews three times a day in the Shmone Esre. We pray for their violent death, and we pray that they not be forgiven in this world or the next. We curse all "malshinim" (informers) and "minim" (heretics).
That means we are commanded to curse traitors like Yitzchak Rabin, Shimon Peres, Arik Sharon, Yossi Beilin and other Israeli informers and heretics who bring death and destruction upon their own people. And we are commanded to curse traitors in the galut (exile) like Steven Spielberg, Barbara Walters, Barbara Streisand, Mort Zuckerman, Rahm Emanuel, Gary Ackerman and all other vermin of Semitic descent that bring death and destruction upon their brothers and sisters.
Let me reiterate that the root cause of most of our problems is our insane failure to hate, curse and ostracize all Jewish informers and traitors. That is why we had a holocaust.
SerbChicago, it is rapidly coming up on ten years (March 24) since the Nazi Clinton Administration, along with the Nazi Atlantic Terror Organization, committed an unprecedented shoah against the heroic Yugoslav people. As we all know, some very evil self-hating JINOs, such as Madeline Albright and Richard Perle, had lead roles in this. The truth, of course, is that they really would have preferred to launch a blitzkrieg against their own brothers and sisters in Israel, but since public opinion wouldn't have stood for that at that point, they chose an easier target (the Serbs who saved thousands of them in World War II). Evil "Jews" like them, Nellie the Weasel (who supports giving half of Israel to the Arabs but hates the Serbs), Olmert, Barak, and Tzipi Hitler, and of course Barbra Streisand, are even lower than the Arabs, Tamils, and Albanians, and G-d will judge them much more harshly in the afterlife.You gonna have to teach me some of the curse words in Hebrew.
SerbChicago, it is rapidly coming up on ten years (March 24) since the Nazi Clinton Administration, along with the Nazi Atlantic Terror Organization, committed an unprecedented shoah against the heroic Yugoslav people. As we all know, some very evil self-hating JINOs, such as Madeline Albright and Richard Perle, had lead roles in this. The truth, of course, is that they really would have preferred to launch a blitzkrieg against their own brothers and sisters in Israel, but since public opinion wouldn't have stood for that at that point, they chose an easier target (the Serbs who saved thousands of them in World War II). Evil "Jews" like them, Nellie the Weasel (who supports giving half of Israel to the Arabs but hates the Serbs), Olmert, Barak, and Tzipi Hitler, and of course Barbra Streisand, are even lower than the Arabs, Tamils, and Albanians, and G-d will judge them much more harshly in the afterlife.You gonna have to teach me some of the curse words in Hebrew.
What does goyim means?SerbChicago, it is rapidly coming up on ten years (March 24) since the Nazi Clinton Administration, along with the Nazi Atlantic Terror Organization, committed an unprecedented shoah against the heroic Yugoslav people. As we all know, some very evil self-hating JINOs, such as Madeline Albright and Richard Perle, had lead roles in this. The truth, of course, is that they really would have preferred to launch a blitzkrieg against their own brothers and sisters in Israel, but since public opinion wouldn't have stood for that at that point, they chose an easier target (the Serbs who saved thousands of them in World War II). Evil "Jews" like them, Nellie the Weasel (who supports giving half of Israel to the Arabs but hates the Serbs), Olmert, Barak, and Tzipi Hitler, and of course Barbra Streisand, are even lower than the Arabs, Tamils, and Albanians, and G-d will judge them much more harshly in the afterlife.You gonna have to teach me some of the curse words in Hebrew.
Oy, just what we need... More goyim using hebrew curses... Doesn't anyone here see the problem which is being created? And from where do you learn how Hashem will judge people in the afterlife? Do you know how Gehennom works? I doubt it...
What does goyim means?SerbChicago, it is rapidly coming up on ten years (March 24) since the Nazi Clinton Administration, along with the Nazi Atlantic Terror Organization, committed an unprecedented shoah against the heroic Yugoslav people. As we all know, some very evil self-hating JINOs, such as Madeline Albright and Richard Perle, had lead roles in this. The truth, of course, is that they really would have preferred to launch a blitzkrieg against their own brothers and sisters in Israel, but since public opinion wouldn't have stood for that at that point, they chose an easier target (the Serbs who saved thousands of them in World War II). Evil "Jews" like them, Nellie the Weasel (who supports giving half of Israel to the Arabs but hates the Serbs), Olmert, Barak, and Tzipi Hitler, and of course Barbra Streisand, are even lower than the Arabs, Tamils, and Albanians, and G-d will judge them much more harshly in the afterlife.You gonna have to teach me some of the curse words in Hebrew.
Oy, just what we need... More goyim using hebrew curses... Doesn't anyone here see the problem which is being created? And from where do you learn how Hashem will judge people in the afterlife? Do you know how Gehennom works? I doubt it...
I don't know what is your problem but i was just trying to be sympathetic with you all and if you don't understand that then i can't help you.SerbChicago, it is rapidly coming up on ten years (March 24) since the Nazi Clinton Administration, along with the Nazi Atlantic Terror Organization, committed an unprecedented shoah against the heroic Yugoslav people. As we all know, some very evil self-hating JINOs, such as Madeline Albright and Richard Perle, had lead roles in this. The truth, of course, is that they really would have preferred to launch a blitzkrieg against their own brothers and sisters in Israel, but since public opinion wouldn't have stood for that at that point, they chose an easier target (the Serbs who saved thousands of them in World War II). Evil "Jews" like them, Nellie the Weasel (who supports giving half of Israel to the Arabs but hates the Serbs), Olmert, Barak, and Tzipi Hitler, and of course Barbra Streisand, are even lower than the Arabs, Tamils, and Albanians, and G-d will judge them much more harshly in the afterlife.You gonna have to teach me some of the curse words in Hebrew.
Oy, just what we need... More goyim using hebrew curses... Doesn't anyone here see the problem which is being created? And from where do you learn how Hashem will judge people in the afterlife? Do you know how Gehennom works? I doubt it...
I don't know what is your problem but i was just trying to be sympathetic with you all and if you don't understand that then i can't help you.SerbChicago, it is rapidly coming up on ten years (March 24) since the Nazi Clinton Administration, along with the Nazi Atlantic Terror Organization, committed an unprecedented shoah against the heroic Yugoslav people. As we all know, some very evil self-hating JINOs, such as Madeline Albright and Richard Perle, had lead roles in this. The truth, of course, is that they really would have preferred to launch a blitzkrieg against their own brothers and sisters in Israel, but since public opinion wouldn't have stood for that at that point, they chose an easier target (the Serbs who saved thousands of them in World War II). Evil "Jews" like them, Nellie the Weasel (who supports giving half of Israel to the Arabs but hates the Serbs), Olmert, Barak, and Tzipi Hitler, and of course Barbra Streisand, are even lower than the Arabs, Tamils, and Albanians, and G-d will judge them much more harshly in the afterlife.You gonna have to teach me some of the curse words in Hebrew.
Oy, just what we need... More goyim using hebrew curses... Doesn't anyone here see the problem which is being created? And from where do you learn how Hashem will judge people in the afterlife? Do you know how Gehennom works? I doubt it...
OkI don't know what is your problem but i was just trying to be sympathetic with you all and if you don't understand that then i can't help you.SerbChicago, it is rapidly coming up on ten years (March 24) since the Nazi Clinton Administration, along with the Nazi Atlantic Terror Organization, committed an unprecedented shoah against the heroic Yugoslav people. As we all know, some very evil self-hating JINOs, such as Madeline Albright and Richard Perle, had lead roles in this. The truth, of course, is that they really would have preferred to launch a blitzkrieg against their own brothers and sisters in Israel, but since public opinion wouldn't have stood for that at that point, they chose an easier target (the Serbs who saved thousands of them in World War II). Evil "Jews" like them, Nellie the Weasel (who supports giving half of Israel to the Arabs but hates the Serbs), Olmert, Barak, and Tzipi Hitler, and of course Barbra Streisand, are even lower than the Arabs, Tamils, and Albanians, and G-d will judge them much more harshly in the afterlife.You gonna have to teach me some of the curse words in Hebrew.
Oy, just what we need... More goyim using hebrew curses... Doesn't anyone here see the problem which is being created? And from where do you learn how Hashem will judge people in the afterlife? Do you know how Gehennom works? I doubt it...
There has been much discussion that Hebrew curses are intended to be used by Jews, not non-Jews. When non-Jews use them it removes the effectiveness of the curses. The Jewish people were not created in the world to curse it, but to bless it.
There has been much discussion that Hebrew curses are intended to be used by Jews, not non-Jews. When non-Jews use them it removes the effectiveness of the curses. The Jewish people were not created in the world to curse it, but to bless it.Muman, that's your opinion, not JTF's. Please don't distort what Chaim's position is. His OP in this thread makes it clear. It's fine that you disagree with him, but please don't put words in his mouth to try to validate your stance.
http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/2895/jewish/24000-Plus-One.htmIt's just that i like you guys,that's why...
"
The Thirteenth Year
But there was one disciple of Rabbi Akiva who learned to overcome the pitfalls of uncompromising love and uncompromising truth, as exemplified by the following incident in the life of Rabbi Shimon bar Yochai:
The Talmud relates that when the Roman rulers of the Holy Land placed a price on the heads of Rabbi Shimon and his son Rabbi Elazar, they hid in a cave for twelve years. During this time, they spent every minute of their day studying Torah. When they emerged from the cave, they were shocked to discover people plowing and sowing: how could people set aside the eternal life that is Torah and occupy their days with the transitory life of the material? So intense was their wrath at such folly that whatever met with their burning glance went up in flames. Proclaimed a voice from heaven: "Have you come out to destroy My world? Return to your cave!" Rabbi Shimon's thirteenth year of study, while increasing his knowledge and appreciation of the truth of Torah, also taught him the value of endeavors other than his own. Now, wherever he went, his look would heal rather than destroy.
The 4,000-year history of Jewish learning has known many great and diligent students of Torah; yet none epitomized the absolute devotion to the pursuit of the divine truth to the extent exemplified by Rabbi Shimon bar Yochai. Throughout the writings of our sages, his example is cited as the ultimate case of torato um'nato, "one whose study of Torah is his sole vocation."
Certainly, then, Rabbi Shimon's commitment to truth was no less absolute than that of Rabbi Akiva's other disciples. Yet his truth was true enough to love. In his thirteenth year in the cave, he attained a dimension of the divine truth that tolerates, indeed embraces, the many and diverse avenues of connection to G-d which the Creator has provided to a humanity whose minds, characters and temperaments are as diverse as their number. In his thirteenth year in the cave, Rabbi Shimon attained a level of truth in which he could utterly devote himself to the eternal life that is Torah, and advocate such devotion for everyone else, and at the same time appreciate and respect the path of those who serve G-d via the temporal life of material endeavors.
So the very same day that celebrates the end of the plague amongst Rabbi Akiva's disciples also celebrates the passing of Rabbi Shimon bar Yochai. The Chassidic masters explain that the passing of a righteous person marks the point at which "all his deeds, teachings and works" attain the pinnacle of fulfillment and realization and the point of their most powerful influence upon our lives. And the deeds, teaching and works of Rabbi Shimon bar Yochai are the ultimate rectification of Rabbi Akiva's disciples' tragic failure to achieve the proper synthesis of love and truth that would make their love true and their truth loving.
"
I am not saying that what Chaim is doing is wrong. But it is not right that non-Jews learn to use hebrew curses like this. This has been discussed countless times. Needless to say that the truly evil should be cursed. But everyone should curse in their native tongue.
<snip>
It's just that i like you guys,that's why...
SerbChicago, Muman disapproves of Gentiles cursing evil Jews, and believes very few people should be cursed in general. That's his opinion. There's nothing wrong with you wanting to curse the evil so-called Jews who destroyed Serbia.O it's not just them it's my people too.I got the list but it's too long...
Give me some examples of self-hating Serb traitors. I don't know much about Serbia so it's all new to me.President Boris Tadic,Premier of Republic of Serbs Milorad Dodik and so on...
בס''דSo isn't it time to do some "cleaning" on JTF?
a. I started this thread because several members have been asserting that it is forbidden to curse fellow Jews.
My intention is not to insult those who have made these comments. I know that there are even rabbis who have been preaching this type of "feel good" message: "rabbis" from the Yesha Council were shouting at the soldiers and police who came to expel Jews from Gush Katif "חייל, אני אוהב אותך! שוטר, אני אוהב אותך!" ("Soldier, I love you! Policeman, I love you!"). These "rabbis" hugged and kissed the expelling soldiers and police and danced with them. These "rabbis" publicly blessed the expelling soldiers and police.
Let me state quite bluntly that the soldiers and police who came to remove Jews from their homeland in order to hand it over to the Amalekite Arabs should be cursed, not blessed. And the Judenrat "rabbis" of the Yesha Council who deliberately undermined and destroyed the opposition to the expulsion are evil traitors. My views on this subject are shared by MANY Jews in the religious nationalist camp. I do NOT love Jewish soldiers or police or politicians that commit unforgivable crimes against the Jewish people. Not only do I not love them, I despise them. And I despise the cowardly prostitute "rabbis" of the Yesha Council who willingly collaborate with these traitors.
Moreover, to those who say that we cannot curse fellow Jews - you are not disagreeing with Chaim Ben Pesach, you are disagreeing with Chazal, who instituted a MANDATORY curse in the Shmone Esre that every Jew must recite three times every week day, four times every Shabbat, and five times every Yom Kippur.
Here is what Chazal commanded us to say about evil Jewish traitors:
וְלַמַּלְשִׁינִים אַל תְּהִי תִקְוָה. וְכָל הַמִּינִים כְּרֶגַע יאבֵדוּ. וְכָל אויְבֵי עַמְּךָ מְהֵרָה יִכָּרֵתוּ. וְהַזֵדִים מְהֵרָה תְעַקֵּר וּתְשַׁבֵּר וּתְמַגֵּר וּתְכַלֵּם וְתַשְׁפִּילֵם וְתַכְנִיעֵם בִּמְהֵרָה בְיָמֵינוּ:
בָּרוּךְ אַתָּה ה'. שׁובֵר אויְבִים וּמַכְנִיעַ זֵדִים
Translation: "And for the informers may there be no hope, and all heretics in a moment should disappear and all enemies of Your people should be destroyed, and all intentional evildoers You should quickly uproot and smash and obliterate and shame and humiliate and defeat quickly in our days. Blessed are You Hashem, Who smashes enemies and defeats evildoers."
To me, that sounds like some heavy duty cursing! And this was not composed by Chaim Ben Pesach. It was composed by Chazal. If you reject this, you are rejecting Judaism.
b. Tzvi, you are opposed to cursing Jews? Wow, that surprises me. Because for years you have been a member of the splinter forums where they have compared me to Hitler, they have accused me of every possible crime, they have condemned what I did to save Soviet Jewry as terrorism, they have praised and defended informers and traitors like Irv Rubin ys"v, they have alllowed Nazis like Tina Greco to openly brag on their forum that she would post pictures of JTF members on StørmFrønt and other Nazi web sites, etc. etc. etc.
Did you ever utter a word of criticism over this vile behavior? On the contrary, when your friends on the splinter forum refused to ban the Nazi Tina Greco after she openly bragged that she posts JTF pictures on StørmFrønt, you wrote about it as if it's no big deal.
Where was your concern about goyim cursing Jews when Tina Greco posted my former address on StørmFrønt, while Mike Guzofsky and "Doom" refused to ban her or remove her posts for several days?
Where was your concern about goyim cursing Jews when Archie was slandering me on the splinter forum, and he eventually uploaded a video on youtube saying that he wanted Hitler to come back to life to murder Chaim Ben Pesach?
Where was your concern about goyim cursing Jews when Jesus Rivera cursed and slandered me and other JTF Jews on the splinter forum?
During all of these incidents, your silence has been deafening.
c. CF and DWI do indeed get carried away with many of their posts.
We are not allowed to curse Torah scholars, chas vechalilah (G-d forbid). We can criticize their rulings if other Torah scholars have also criticized them, but there is a difference between criticism and cursing.
What I wrote above against the Yesha Council "rabbis" (like the Shabak snitch Shlomo Aviner) is not something that can be written about HaRav Ovadia. HaRav Ovadia is a real Torah scholar who has written dozens of books on major Torah issues. The Yesha Council "rabbis" are not in his league. While HaRav Ovadia has made some terrible rulings that have led to the murder of many Jews, to curse him is forbidden because it can lead to the belittling of the Torah itself, G-d forbid. So with HaRav Ovadia, we can criticize and disagree, but we cannot curse. BTW, at least 90% of Israel's rabbis disagree with HaRav Ovadia's leftwing rulings on surrendering Jewish land.
The use of obscene language and sexual innuendo is also inappropriate.
Most of all, the inordinate amount of attention which CF and DWI devote to a "forum" that has only 4 or 5 members, and whose leader Guzofsky never even posts there because even he is bored with the "forum" - this waste of time and energy simply makes no sense. Why squander valuable time arguing with a handful of jealous, uneducated people?
However, CF is a righteous Gentile and DWI is a wonderful Jew. They are both genuinely loyal to the cause. I just wish they would spend their time more wisely. I appeal to them to think before they post: How does what I am posting make JTF look? How will this advance or harm the cause?
Couldn't you just call us gentiles. It seems that you use goyim with a negative connotation. As I understand it goy or goyim can be used as a derogatory term to describe someone who is not Jewish. Why are you a member of JTF if you have such disdain for gentiles. There are quite a few of us here.SerbChicago, it is rapidly coming up on ten years (March 24) since the Nazi Clinton Administration, along with the Nazi Atlantic Terror Organization, committed an unprecedented shoah against the heroic Yugoslav people. As we all know, some very evil self-hating JINOs, such as Madeline Albright and Richard Perle, had lead roles in this. The truth, of course, is that they really would have preferred to launch a blitzkrieg against their own brothers and sisters in Israel, but since public opinion wouldn't have stood for that at that point, they chose an easier target (the Serbs who saved thousands of them in World War II). Evil "Jews" like them, Nellie the Weasel (who supports giving half of Israel to the Arabs but hates the Serbs), Olmert, Barak, and Tzipi Hitler, and of course Barbra Streisand, are even lower than the Arabs, Tamils, and Albanians, and G-d will judge them much more harshly in the afterlife.You gonna have to teach me some of the curse words in Hebrew.
Oy, just what we need... More goyim using hebrew curses... Doesn't anyone here see the problem which is being created? And from where do you learn how Hashem will judge people in the afterlife? Do you know how Gehennom works? I doubt it...
Couldn't you just call us gentiles. It seems that you use goyim with a negative connotation. As I understand it goy or goyim can be used as a derogatory term to describe someone who is not Jewish. Why are you a member of JTF if you have such disdain for gentiles. There are quite a few of us here.SerbChicago, it is rapidly coming up on ten years (March 24) since the Nazi Clinton Administration, along with the Nazi Atlantic Terror Organization, committed an unprecedented shoah against the heroic Yugoslav people. As we all know, some very evil self-hating JINOs, such as Madeline Albright and Richard Perle, had lead roles in this. The truth, of course, is that they really would have preferred to launch a blitzkrieg against their own brothers and sisters in Israel, but since public opinion wouldn't have stood for that at that point, they chose an easier target (the Serbs who saved thousands of them in World War II). Evil "Jews" like them, Nellie the Weasel (who supports giving half of Israel to the Arabs but hates the Serbs), Olmert, Barak, and Tzipi Hitler, and of course Barbra Streisand, are even lower than the Arabs, Tamils, and Albanians, and G-d will judge them much more harshly in the afterlife.You gonna have to teach me some of the curse words in Hebrew.
Oy, just what we need... More goyim using hebrew curses... Doesn't anyone here see the problem which is being created? And from where do you learn how Hashem will judge people in the afterlife? Do you know how Gehennom works? I doubt it...
Chaim, I understand the point you are making about Muman's feelings. I do believe that he is a sincere person.Couldn't you just call us gentiles. It seems that you use goyim with a negative connotation. As I understand it goy or goyim can be used as a derogatory term to describe someone who is not Jewish. Why are you a member of JTF if you have such disdain for gentiles. There are quite a few of us here.SerbChicago, it is rapidly coming up on ten years (March 24) since the Nazi Clinton Administration, along with the Nazi Atlantic Terror Organization, committed an unprecedented shoah against the heroic Yugoslav people. As we all know, some very evil self-hating JINOs, such as Madeline Albright and Richard Perle, had lead roles in this. The truth, of course, is that they really would have preferred to launch a blitzkrieg against their own brothers and sisters in Israel, but since public opinion wouldn't have stood for that at that point, they chose an easier target (the Serbs who saved thousands of them in World War II). Evil "Jews" like them, Nellie the Weasel (who supports giving half of Israel to the Arabs but hates the Serbs), Olmert, Barak, and Tzipi Hitler, and of course Barbra Streisand, are even lower than the Arabs, Tamils, and Albanians, and G-d will judge them much more harshly in the afterlife.You gonna have to teach me some of the curse words in Hebrew.
Oy, just what we need... More goyim using hebrew curses... Doesn't anyone here see the problem which is being created? And from where do you learn how Hashem will judge people in the afterlife? Do you know how Gehennom works? I doubt it...
Bullcat, even if I have differences of opinion with Muman, I don't think he has disdain for gentiles. He just feels uncomfortable with Gentiles cursing Jews. He thinks that that is almost a form of anti-Semitism.
Also, I have to add that I respect Muman and consider him to be a very honest Jew. Even if we have differences of opinion, I think he is a sincere person.
Chaim, I have defended you in the past.
Now I dont get involved becuase I did not and do not wish to be involved in the fight between you and Yekutiel. It goes both ways. I havn't even accused you of anything, nor have I held that you are responsible for the actions of cf and dwi.
You calling them "rightious" in my opinion is a joke.
If you wish to ban me, then go ahead, but I havn't done wrong to you, nor broken the rules.
Chaim, I understand the point you are making about Muman's feelings. I do believe that he is a sincere person.Couldn't you just call us gentiles. It seems that you use goyim with a negative connotation. As I understand it goy or goyim can be used as a derogatory term to describe someone who is not Jewish. Why are you a member of JTF if you have such disdain for gentiles. There are quite a few of us here.SerbChicago, it is rapidly coming up on ten years (March 24) since the Nazi Clinton Administration, along with the Nazi Atlantic Terror Organization, committed an unprecedented shoah against the heroic Yugoslav people. As we all know, some very evil self-hating JINOs, such as Madeline Albright and Richard Perle, had lead roles in this. The truth, of course, is that they really would have preferred to launch a blitzkrieg against their own brothers and sisters in Israel, but since public opinion wouldn't have stood for that at that point, they chose an easier target (the Serbs who saved thousands of them in World War II). Evil "Jews" like them, Nellie the Weasel (who supports giving half of Israel to the Arabs but hates the Serbs), Olmert, Barak, and Tzipi Hitler, and of course Barbra Streisand, are even lower than the Arabs, Tamils, and Albanians, and G-d will judge them much more harshly in the afterlife.You gonna have to teach me some of the curse words in Hebrew.
Oy, just what we need... More goyim using hebrew curses... Doesn't anyone here see the problem which is being created? And from where do you learn how Hashem will judge people in the afterlife? Do you know how Gehennom works? I doubt it...
Bullcat, even if I have differences of opinion with Muman, I don't think he has disdain for gentiles. He just feels uncomfortable with Gentiles cursing Jews. He thinks that that is almost a form of anti-Semitism.
Also, I have to add that I respect Muman and consider him to be a very honest Jew. Even if we have differences of opinion, I think he is a sincere person.
If Gentile members need some 'curse' words for evil people, the Italians have plenty they can share with them. 8;)
However, CF is a righteous Gentile and DWI is a wonderful Jew. They are both genuinely loyal to the cause. I just wish they would spend their time more wisely. I appeal to them to think before they post: How does what I am posting make JTF look? How will this advance or harm the cause?That's perfectly fair to say, Chaim, but I did not go about attacking anybody in this thread. One poster got very angry and started making attacks. I also have not discussed the splinter people at all since you told me to stop in the Doom thread last night.
"You get hysterical when CF says something about evil Jews"Give me a break. You're not fooling anybody. You made a long post on the splinter, that I have reposted here many times, where in your own words you stated "I dont see the reason why the JTF ppl got all bent out of shape about tina grinko, they are the ones who put their pics on myspace/yourface". Give it up already.
Rav Ovadia Yosef Shlita is evil? The many other Jews he regularly insults are evil? And you call him righteous after that?
"You actually posted that we in JTF were the guilty party. "
No I didn't. I basically said that people shouldn't post their pics on myspace and then complain (I was referring about 1 hysterical member from this forum). You should not accept the lashon hara agains't me that I know is constantly sent to you by cf and dwi.
" Tina Greco"
I said she was a nazi. I think she is banned, I dont know or see her.
"Kelly Scott"
The only thing I know about her is that she is some blond lady. I don't know who she is really.
"If that is true, then a fellow Jew wrote something to you in confidence and you are betraying his confidence. What an ugly thing to do! I can guarantee you that what you are doing is a very serious sin. You are someone who can never be trusted."
He gave me permission, and publicly dared me to post it, and so I did. It was all with his permission and his big mouth.
"As a fellow Jew, I urge you to consider your actions and to do tshuva. And the only real tshuva is to request forgiveness from the people you have wronged."
From those that I truly have wronged, I will ask for forgiveness.
"You get hysterical when CF says something about evil Jews"Give me a break. You're not fooling anybody. You made a long post on the splinter, that I have reposted here many times, where in your own words you stated "I dont see the reason why the JTF ppl got all bent out of shape about tina grinko, they are the ones who put their pics on myspace/yourface". Give it up already.
Rav Ovadia Yosef Shlita is evil? The many other Jews he regularly insults are evil? And you call him righteous after that?
"You actually posted that we in JTF were the guilty party. "
No I didn't. I basically said that people shouldn't post their pics on myspace and then complain (I was referring about 1 hysterical member from this forum). You should not accept the lashon hara agains't me that I know is constantly sent to you by cf and dwi.
" Tina Greco"
I said she was a nazi. I think she is banned, I dont know or see her.
"Kelly Scott"
The only thing I know about her is that she is some blond lady. I don't know who she is really.
"If that is true, then a fellow Jew wrote something to you in confidence and you are betraying his confidence. What an ugly thing to do! I can guarantee you that what you are doing is a very serious sin. You are someone who can never be trusted."
He gave me permission, and publicly dared me to post it, and so I did. It was all with his permission and his big mouth.
"As a fellow Jew, I urge you to consider your actions and to do tshuva. And the only real tshuva is to request forgiveness from the people you have wronged."
From those that I truly have wronged, I will ask for forgiveness.
Also, you claim that DWI wrote something to you in private. You claim he wrote something that was critical of Christianity. I don't know what he wrote and frankly I don't care. I assume he's telling the truth when he denies that he wrote it, because DWI has never lied to me. But let's assume just for the sake of argument that what you are saying is true - let's assume that DWI did write it.Chaim, Tzvi claimed today that an "unnamed moderator" sent me a copy of what DownwithIslam PMd him. This never happened. I told Tzvi that he must have been indulging in some strong mind-altering substances because such an event was a hallucination that never took place.
And Kelly Scott, who gave Tina Greco some of the information that she posted on the Nazi web site, is still a member of the splinter forum as is Newman.
"You get hysterical when CF says something about evil Jews"
Rav Ovadia Yosef Shlita is evil? The many other Jews he regularly insults are evil? And you call him righteous after that?
"You actually posted that we in JTF were the guilty party. "
No I didn't. I basically said that people shouldn't post their pics on myspace and then complain (I was referring about 1 hysterical member from this forum). You should not accept the lashon hara agains't me that I know is constantly sent to you by cf and dwi.
" Tina Greco"
I said she was a nazi. I think she is banned, I dont know or see her.
"Kelly Scott"
The only thing I know about her is that she is some blond lady. I don't know who she is really.
"If that is true, then a fellow Jew wrote something to you in confidence and you are betraying his confidence. What an ugly thing to do! I can guarantee you that what you are doing is a very serious sin. You are someone who can never be trusted."
He gave me permission, and publicly dared me to post it, and so I did. It was all with his permission and his big mouth.
"As a fellow Jew, I urge you to consider your actions and to do tshuva. And the only real tshuva is to request forgiveness from the people you have wronged."
From those that I truly have wronged, I will ask for forgiveness.
Cursing should be reserved for those who are truly deserving of it. MOSLEMS, NAZIS and Radical LIBERALS who are creating a mess Worldwide.
Might I make a suggestion...let us use the word DEMON or DEMONS. That is what we are dealing with after all.
WW3 in my opinion has started already, and since Satan is behind this, we should describe those who help Satan with the proper term
of Demons.
I don't want to see anyone fighting on this forum, our enemies enjoy that.
P.S. I hope no one uses the word kike or goy again.
Shalom & G-d bless - Dox
The so-called "devil vs. G-d" approach is an anathema to Judaism because of the whiff of dualism inherent in it. G-d is One, and only One. He acts in many different ways, but there are no "two" armies in the full sense of the word.
Judaism does speak of the "Satan/devil," but it sees Satan as an agent of G-d, testing the sincerity of man's deeds, the strength of his convictions, and the stamina of his moral fiber. Although this so-called devil seems to entice man to do wrong, he is not inherently an evil being. Rather, he is conducting a "sting" operation; overtly enticing to bad, but in reality working for G-d. A cursory reading of the beginning of Job conveys that message: G-d sends out Satan to test Job's righteousness.
Just as a dentist or doctor tests the firmness of a bone or flesh by probing it, just as the army tests the integrity and trustworthiness of its intelligence agents by tempting them, so too does G-d test man. A test reveals the inner worthiness of a person's deeds, demonstrating what they are really made of.
So, if magic and occult do exist, why are they so evil?
Is the World in a Conflict Between
Good and Evil?
(This article should be read after my article Does Judaism Believe in Satan?)
In Judaism we do not see it as there being a conflict between good and evil. Some ancient religions believed that there are two forces in the universe, one good and one evil, and that they are constantly warring with each other. This was common to Mithraism, Zoroastrianism, Christianity, and later to Manichaeism. Christianity, however, made the devil less powerful than G-d, but still made him a rebel against G-d.
Judaism sees it differently, and we have always seen it differently. Satan is not a rebellious angel. G-d created both good and evil. The Bible says so, in Isaiah 45:7.
What is evil? Not fulfilling G-d's will.
G-d created the universe because G-d wanted to do good. So there had to be people to receive that good.
But G-d does not want to just give away good as a present. G-d wants people to appreciate it. Something you get for free you do not appreciate. And in fact, if you got something amazingly good for free, and you were allowed to enjoy it for all eternity, you would be embarrassed by it. You didn't work for it, you don't deserve it.
So G-d decided that people would have to work for it, and receive the ultimate goodness as a reward for work.
What is that work? Well, G-d created the Evil Inclination, the angel called Satan, whose job it is to tempt us to do evil. If we ignore the Evil Inclination, then we get closer to G-d, and become more holy. By doing so, we merit the reward of the ultimate goodness. G-d also gave us Commandments, and the Tempting Angel tempts us to find reasons not to keep those Commandments. By ignoring the temptations, and fulfilling G-d's Commandments, we become more spiritual, and our souls gain more power over ourselves.
So we see our lives in this world as an opportunity. We have been granted the glorious opportunity to attain holiness and ultimate goodness.
So, in the future there will come a time when the universe as we know it will come to an end, and the World To Come will begin. Then we will begin to get our eternal reward -- the ultimate goodness!
This world is here merely for us to do good things in, and the Next World is for the reward. And in that world we will continue to grow in holiness.
So it is not that there is an ultimate struggle of good versus evil. Within each of us there are many struggles. We want to do the right thing, but we desire to do the wrong thing. We have the free choice to choose. We can do either the right thing or the wrong thing. It is completely up to us.
When we let our Good Inclination prevail about one thing, we become stronger in that thing. The more we continue to let the good prevail, the more it becomes easier to do the right thing in that area.
Say, for example, we have a desire to tell harmful gossip about someone. If we hold ourselves back from doing it, and continue to hold ourselves back whenever we feel the temptation, it becomes easier and easier to stop gossiping. Conversely, the more we gossip, the harder it is to stop. And that's the way it is with every individual characteristic trait.
But when we perfect one characteristic trait, it does not always help with another. For example, if we work on becoming humble, sometimes that will help us in other areas. A humble person will be less likely to get angry at someone else. A humble person might not tell gossip either. But a humble person might still lie, or sleep late when he or she knows that there is a chore or other responsibility to deal with. Someone who has learned never to gossip might still steal, for example. So each trait usually has to be worked on by itself, but something like humility helps with most of the others.
And possibly the greatest temptation is in the area of having faith in G-d. Developing our faith helps us in many areas.
So, there is no ultimate struggle of good versus evil. There is only the struggle within each of us. The Evil Inclination, also known as Satan, is doing what G-d has commanded him to do. He is giving us temptations, because by fighting against our wrong desires we are working to gain the ultimate goodness, and that is what G-d wants us to do.
Cursing should be reserved for those who are truly deserving of it. MOSLEMS, NAZIS and Radical LIBERALS who are creating a mess Worldwide.
Might I make a suggestion...let us use the word DEMON or DEMONS. That is what we are dealing with after all.
WW3 in my opinion has started already, and since Satan is behind this, we should describe those who help Satan with the proper term
of Demons.
I don't want to see anyone fighting on this forum, our enemies enjoy that.
P.S. I hope no one uses the word kike or goy again.
Shalom & G-d bless - Dox
dox,
Please tell me you don't believe in the devil! Jews do not believe that Satan is a fallen angel or anything like that. Satan is the hand of Hashem set against the Jewish people because of their iniquity. Whenever something evil happens it is Hashem sending us a message to return to Torah. This is the pure Jewish belief in the Prosecutor in heaven. The Devil is a non-Jewish idea...
SHEMA YISRAEL HASHEM ELOKAYNU,HASHEM ECHAD!
There is only ONE force in the universe and all other forces are subservient to Hashem. No Devil can destroy Hashems plan, EVER!
<snip>
Muman, you are misinterperting what I mean to say, honestly. What happend in the Holocaust? Can you honestly tell me that Satan was not involved in the brutal torture and murder of our Six Million people? Can you honestly say that Satan is not ruling Islam and it's followers? What kind of human beings can commit such autrocities? Satan does exist, the Chistians call him the Devil, I refer to him as Satan. G-d created Satan and for the likes of me I don't know why nor am I supposed to know. G-d has his reasons for doing things, and of course we are not suppose to question that.
In my opinion, a normal human cannot commit such crimes as they did in the Holocaust, and the types of crimes the Moslems are commiting today.
Satan is evil and that you would not dispute.... so is it so hard for you to understand that Satan can influence people? If Satan influences people I do refer to them as demons because they are following him. I am Jewish like you Muman, a born Jew and I do not have the level, or even close to it in Jewish education that you have. I hope you did not assume I knew as much about Judaism as you, to the contrary you may consider me an uneducated Jew because I have not studied like you. My life is different, much different than yours, but the fact remains I was born Jewish and will die Jewish.
You mentioned that Satan cannot destroy Hashem, I have know this my entire life. Why was it necessary for you to point that out to me? Unless you were just making a comment unrelated to anything I said.
Back to Satan, like I said before I don't know why G-d created it, but I do firmly believe that Satan does influence people therefore I intend to use the term Demons to describe Nazis, Moslems and radical Liberals who do evil acts. If I was Orthodox, perhaps I may words things differently as you do.
I have always respected your opinions, even if they differ from mine, I expect the same consideration back. Remember, not all of us have had the same upbringing in regards to the level of Observance and Torah knowledge. Not everyone is as educated as you so therefore do not make assumptions about what one thinks due to the words used to describe a certain subject. If people are evil, I would like to be able to call them Demons.
Shalom & G-d bless - Dox
Muman, Satan definitely does exist. The book of Job clearly attests to Lucifer's activity in the world. It is true that he only can do what G-d allows him to, but he definitely is present among us.
בס''ד
There is something that has bothered me for a long time: We have some members who are under the impression that we are forbidden to curse even self-hating Jewish traitors because they are "our fellow Jews".
Not only are we obligated to curse them, we are actually obligated to kill them. But we in JTF are so moderate and so law-abiding that we do not kill these traitors even though under Torah law, that is our obligation. We JTFers are simply too moderate and too law-abiding to do such a thing........
Jews who seek to harm their own people bezadon (intentionally), or who support their people's enemies, or who endanger Jewish lives (rodfim) - these Jews are supposed to be cursed, and are supposed to be killed. We JTFers happen to be too moderate to do this, but this is Torah law.......
Until Jewish traitors fear for their lives, the Jewish people will always face grave perils.
<snip>
I really don't want to get involved in the in-fighting going on here. However, I would like to discuss Chaim's original post, parts of which are quoted above.
In his original post Chaim makes it clear we are obligated to curse Jewish traitors. More than that, according to Torah law we are obligated to kill them. It is only our moderation and being law abiding that prevents us from doing so.
After reading the original post, I asked Chaim what he was suggesting and then added it might be prudent to clarify that, of course, he isn't advocating JTF members kill Jewish traitors.
Although Chaim didn't directly respond to me, I notice there is no longer any talk of an obligation to kill Jewish traitors in this thread.
What I would like to know is where in the Torah are we commanded to kill Jewish traitors. If I'm reading the portion of the Shmona Esrai that Chaim sited correctly, we pray to G-d to smash and obliterate our traitors and informers. We don't do it ourselves. Chaim also gave examples where Moses ordered the death of those who built the golden calf, and also the killing of someone who had an affair with a woman from an enemy nation. Does this mean we, today, are obligated to kill such people ? My guess is probably not. After all, the members of this forum (Jew and non-Jew alike) live in nations and societies where Torah law is superceded by national laws where killing is concerned. But what about an Israel that was strictly Torah observant ??
As a secular Jew this concerns me. Could I be killed for eating a bacon sandwich or driving on Shabbat or having sex with a Gentile woman ? Who or what determines what behaviors are over the line traitorous and worthy of the death penalty ?
Perhaps Chaim and some of the more educated members of this forum can answer these questions and concerns.
"You get hysterical when CF says something about evil Jews"
Rav Ovadia Yosef Shlita is evil? The many other Jews he regularly insults are evil? And you call him righteous after that?
"You actually posted that we in JTF were the guilty party. "
No I didn't. I basically said that people shouldn't post their pics on myspace and then complain (I was referring about 1 hysterical member from this forum). You should not accept the lashon hara agains't me that I know is constantly sent to you by cf and dwi.
" Tina Greco"
I said she was a nazi. I think she is banned, I dont know or see her.
"Kelly Scott"
The only thing I know about her is that she is some blond lady. I don't know who she is really.
"If that is true, then a fellow Jew wrote something to you in confidence and you are betraying his confidence. What an ugly thing to do! I can guarantee you that what you are doing is a very serious sin. You are someone who can never be trusted."
He gave me permission, and publicly dared me to post it, and so I did. It was all with his permission and his big mouth.
"As a fellow Jew, I urge you to consider your actions and to do tshuva. And the only real tshuva is to request forgiveness from the people you have wronged."
From those that I truly have wronged, I will ask for forgiveness.
Tzvi, you can fool other people and you can even fool yourself, but you can't fool Hashem. If you truly have yirat shamayim, think about how the yetzer harah has gotten you to do bad things.
You publicly threatened DWI. Only after your public threat, when his back was against the wall did he say, "go ahead and reveal it". Do you think Hashem approves of this type of public betrayal of a fellow Jew?
As for HaRav Ovadia, CF was not brought up with Jewish concepts. He was not raised to understand that it is forbidden to curse a Torah scholar, G-d forbid. CF sincerely loves and cares about Israel and he understands that the future of the whole world is tied to the future of Israel. So he feels angered and betrayed when HaRav Ovadia orders Shas to support surrendering Jewish land. Or when HaRav Ovadia ordered Shas to support the Oslo government of Rabin and Peres ys''v. Or when HaRav Ovadia ordered Shas to support the horrific government of Ehud Smolmert. Or when HaRav Ovadia's Shas party supported inviting the Arab Hitler Yasser Arafat and 80,000 armed PLO-Fatah terrorists into the Land of Israel while they were expelling me (I was expelled by the Shas Interior Minister Eli Suissa). To CF, these decisions are evil.
I also consider these decisions to be evil, but we cannot permit the cursing of Torah scholars. Because that will lead to contempt for the Torah itself, G-d forbid. CF (and DWI) have stopped doing this after I explained to them that we are a Torah movement, and in a Torah movement, there can be legitimate disagreement and criticism but no cursing of Torah scholars.
CF and DWI are righteous because they genuinely love the Jewish people and the Land of Israel. They genuinely want to help. That desire makes them righteous.
<snip>
Muman, you are misinterperting what I mean to say, honestly. What happend in the Holocaust? Can you honestly tell me that Satan was not involved in the brutal torture and murder of our Six Million people? Can you honestly say that Satan is not ruling Islam and it's followers? What kind of human beings can commit such autrocities? Satan does exist, the Chistians call him the Devil, I refer to him as Satan. G-d created Satan and for the likes of me I don't know why nor am I supposed to know. G-d has his reasons for doing things, and of course we are not suppose to question that.
In my opinion, a normal human cannot commit such crimes as they did in the Holocaust, and the types of crimes the Moslems are commiting today.
Satan is evil and that you would not dispute.... so is it so hard for you to understand that Satan can influence people? If Satan influences people I do refer to them as demons because they are following him. I am Jewish like you Muman, a born Jew and I do not have the level, or even close to it in Jewish education that you have. I hope you did not assume I knew as much about Judaism as you, to the contrary you may consider me an uneducated Jew because I have not studied like you. My life is different, much different than yours, but the fact remains I was born Jewish and will die Jewish.
You mentioned that Satan cannot destroy Hashem, I have know this my entire life. Why was it necessary for you to point that out to me? Unless you were just making a comment unrelated to anything I said.
Back to Satan, like I said before I don't know why G-d created it, but I do firmly believe that Satan does influence people therefore I intend to use the term Demons to describe Nazis, Moslems and radical Liberals who do evil acts. If I was Orthodox, perhaps I may words things differently as you do.
I have always respected your opinions, even if they differ from mine, I expect the same consideration back. Remember, not all of us have had the same upbringing in regards to the level of Observance and Torah knowledge. Not everyone is as educated as you so therefore do not make assumptions about what one thinks due to the words used to describe a certain subject. If people are evil, I would like to be able to call them Demons.
Shalom & G-d bless - Dox
I understand what you are saying... I am just writing this because I see many people think that Hashem is fighting against the force of darkness. I have long tried to explain that Satan is a creation of Hashems and is doing its job.
Why did Hashem create the Egyptian people who would use Jewish babies as mortar in their buildings? Why would Hashem allow the king of Persia to put a decree out that he would kill all the Jews in the world? The reason in each case is because the Satan is working for Hashem to bring the Jews back {through Teshuva}. This is how I see this struggle.
My brother was killed by the forces of evil in the world. I even am OK with knowing that Hashem did it to wake me up, and in doing so he has inspired me to learn, and to teach. I hope that we can bring more light into the world because the only thing which evil cannot stand up to is the light of Hashem.
I do not judge you, and I dont feel above you... We are all seekers of truth and I would like to share what I have learned, with sources, with everyone.
PS: I hope that every Jew has a mitzvah laden Purim this week... I am expecting to go to a Schlock Rock concert in San Francisco Sunday night... Megillah reading Monday night, I am taking all Tuesday off so I can hear the Megillah again on Tuesday... Also remember that Monday is the Fast of Esther.
<snip>
Muman, you are misinterperting what I mean to say, honestly. What happend in the Holocaust? Can you honestly tell me that Satan was not involved in the brutal torture and murder of our Six Million people? Can you honestly say that Satan is not ruling Islam and it's followers? What kind of human beings can commit such autrocities? Satan does exist, the Chistians call him the Devil, I refer to him as Satan. G-d created Satan and for the likes of me I don't know why nor am I supposed to know. G-d has his reasons for doing things, and of course we are not suppose to question that.
In my opinion, a normal human cannot commit such crimes as they did in the Holocaust, and the types of crimes the Moslems are commiting today.
Satan is evil and that you would not dispute.... so is it so hard for you to understand that Satan can influence people? If Satan influences people I do refer to them as demons because they are following him. I am Jewish like you Muman, a born Jew and I do not have the level, or even close to it in Jewish education that you have. I hope you did not assume I knew as much about Judaism as you, to the contrary you may consider me an uneducated Jew because I have not studied like you. My life is different, much different than yours, but the fact remains I was born Jewish and will die Jewish.
You mentioned that Satan cannot destroy Hashem, I have know this my entire life. Why was it necessary for you to point that out to me? Unless you were just making a comment unrelated to anything I said.
Back to Satan, like I said before I don't know why G-d created it, but I do firmly believe that Satan does influence people therefore I intend to use the term Demons to describe Nazis, Moslems and radical Liberals who do evil acts. If I was Orthodox, perhaps I may words things differently as you do.
I have always respected your opinions, even if they differ from mine, I expect the same consideration back. Remember, not all of us have had the same upbringing in regards to the level of Observance and Torah knowledge. Not everyone is as educated as you so therefore do not make assumptions about what one thinks due to the words used to describe a certain subject. If people are evil, I would like to be able to call them Demons.
Shalom & G-d bless - Dox
I understand what you are saying... I am just writing this because I see many people think that Hashem is fighting against the force of darkness. I have long tried to explain that Satan is a creation of Hashems and is doing its job.
Why did Hashem create the Egyptian people who would use Jewish babies as mortar in their buildings? Why would Hashem allow the king of Persia to put a decree out that he would kill all the Jews in the world? The reason in each case is because the Satan is working for Hashem to bring the Jews back {through Teshuva}. This is how I see this struggle.
My brother was killed by the forces of evil in the world. I even am OK with knowing that Hashem did it to wake me up, and in doing so he has inspired me to learn, and to teach. I hope that we can bring more light into the world because the only thing which evil cannot stand up to is the light of Hashem.
I do not judge you, and I dont feel above you... We are all seekers of truth and I would like to share what I have learned, with sources, with everyone.
PS: I hope that every Jew has a mitzvah laden Purim this week... I am expecting to go to a Schlock Rock concert in San Francisco Sunday night... Megillah reading Monday night, I am taking all Tuesday off so I can hear the Megillah again on Tuesday... Also remember that Monday is the Fast of Esther.
Ok that is fine. Now back to the Satan theory, I have to disagree even though your are far more observant than I and your knowledge of Judaism is much greater than mine. I love G-d and I think G-d is perfect but I disagree about G-d wanting satan to do these things. My opinion is this; G-d told Satan he could have those that follow him. Just because G-d gave permission to Satan to keep those that follow him, does not necessarily mean G-d is punishing
the innocent. The innocent are victims of Satan and his followers. G-d is perfect therefore torturing and killing innocent people is not G-d's cup of tea..so to speak. I hope you understand my idea. Again, G-d loves the innocents of this world, Jewish or not. G-d did give man free will and any sufferings of the innocents ( in my opinion ) are a direct result of Satan and those who follow his ways. Satan is extremely jealous of G-d, therefore he tries to upset G-d by harming the innocent.
P.S. You type fast reply's.
Muman, regardless of the differences in our theology we do share the same Tanach. Please interpret Job 1:6-12 for me. Yes the Christian understanding of Satan differs from the Jewish, but we both believe he exists.
Christianity believes Satan is in a struggle with Hashem to control the world.
Muman, neither Elizabeth nor Christians believe that the devil is a force of equal and opposite power as G-d. I don't know exactly what Dox believes, but the Christian understanding is that since G-d gave all intelligent beings the gift of free will, all intelligent beings are free to choose good and evil. Satan, or Lucifer, chose evil. Yes, it is ultimately true that he only does what G-d permits him to, and that he has no ultimate power whatsoever in the universe besides to tempt people (which they can choose to reject), but he thinks, in his supreme arrogance, that he can take on his creator. G-d allows sin to reign in this world at present because he would rather that beings choose of their own free will to worship and serve him, even if it is just a few, rather have seven billion human robots who have no choice but to do those things--and also because he is a longsuffering, merciful L-rd who gives his creation countless chances to repent.
I know that is not the Jewish view of Satan but I had to demonstrate to you that we aren't dualists.
<snip>
Muman, you are misinterperting what I mean to say, honestly. What happend in the Holocaust? Can you honestly tell me that Satan was not involved in the brutal torture and murder of our Six Million people? Can you honestly say that Satan is not ruling Islam and it's followers? What kind of human beings can commit such autrocities? Satan does exist, the Chistians call him the Devil, I refer to him as Satan. G-d created Satan and for the likes of me I don't know why nor am I supposed to know. G-d has his reasons for doing things, and of course we are not suppose to question that.
In my opinion, a normal human cannot commit such crimes as they did in the Holocaust, and the types of crimes the Moslems are commiting today.
Satan is evil and that you would not dispute.... so is it so hard for you to understand that Satan can influence people? If Satan influences people I do refer to them as demons because they are following him. I am Jewish like you Muman, a born Jew and I do not have the level, or even close to it in Jewish education that you have. I hope you did not assume I knew as much about Judaism as you, to the contrary you may consider me an uneducated Jew because I have not studied like you. My life is different, much different than yours, but the fact remains I was born Jewish and will die Jewish.
You mentioned that Satan cannot destroy Hashem, I have know this my entire life. Why was it necessary for you to point that out to me? Unless you were just making a comment unrelated to anything I said.
Back to Satan, like I said before I don't know why G-d created it, but I do firmly believe that Satan does influence people therefore I intend to use the term Demons to describe Nazis, Moslems and radical Liberals who do evil acts. If I was Orthodox, perhaps I may words things differently as you do.
I have always respected your opinions, even if they differ from mine, I expect the same consideration back. Remember, not all of us have had the same upbringing in regards to the level of Observance and Torah knowledge. Not everyone is as educated as you so therefore do not make assumptions about what one thinks due to the words used to describe a certain subject. If people are evil, I would like to be able to call them Demons.
Shalom & G-d bless - Dox
I understand what you are saying... I am just writing this because I see many people think that Hashem is fighting against the force of darkness. I have long tried to explain that Satan is a creation of Hashems and is doing its job.
Why did Hashem create the Egyptian people who would use Jewish babies as mortar in their buildings? Why would Hashem allow the king of Persia to put a decree out that he would kill all the Jews in the world? The reason in each case is because the Satan is working for Hashem to bring the Jews back {through Teshuva}. This is how I see this struggle.
My brother was killed by the forces of evil in the world. I even am OK with knowing that Hashem did it to wake me up, and in doing so he has inspired me to learn, and to teach. I hope that we can bring more light into the world because the only thing which evil cannot stand up to is the light of Hashem.
I do not judge you, and I dont feel above you... We are all seekers of truth and I would like to share what I have learned, with sources, with everyone.
PS: I hope that every Jew has a mitzvah laden Purim this week... I am expecting to go to a Schlock Rock concert in San Francisco Sunday night... Megillah reading Monday night, I am taking all Tuesday off so I can hear the Megillah again on Tuesday... Also remember that Monday is the Fast of Esther.
Ok that is fine. Now back to the Satan theory, I have to disagree even though your are far more observant than I and your knowledge of Judaism is much greater than mine. I love G-d and I think G-d is perfect but I disagree about G-d wanting satan to do these things. My opinion is this; G-d told Satan he could have those that follow him. Just because G-d gave permission to Satan to keep those that follow him, does not necessarily mean G-d is punishing
the innocent. The innocent are victims of Satan and his followers. G-d is perfect therefore torturing and killing innocent people is not G-d's cup of tea..so to speak. I hope you understand my idea. Again, G-d loves the innocents of this world, Jewish or not. G-d did give man free will and any sufferings of the innocents ( in my opinion ) are a direct result of Satan and those who follow his ways. Satan is extremely jealous of G-d, therefore he tries to upset G-d by harming the innocent.
P.S. You type fast reply's.
Im sorry but this sounds like Dualism to me...
By the way, I think it's very clear to everyone that the animal tzvi ben roshel fabricated what I said simply to harm gentile-jewish relations on this forum. Chaim supporting me here has confirmed this.I have no reason not to believe you. The Satmar Tzvi (and I say this because he has never convincingly stated that he is a Zionist, and refused to answer me when in this thread I asked him if he would prefer the Jewish state not exist until the Maschiach) certainly lied when he claimed that a moderator sent me a "copy" of what you supposedly said.
To what extent is hatred forbidden? One should not say, “Love scholars
but hate students, love students but hate ignoramuses.” One must love
everyone, hating only heretics, inciters to heresy, and informers. As King
David said (Ps. 139:21-22), “O L-rd, do I not hate those who hate you? Do
I not strive with those who rise up against You? I hate them with the utmost
hatred. I count them among my enemies.”
Does it not say, “Love your neighbor as yourself. I am the L-rd” [i.e how
can one hate these when it says we must love our neighbor]? The answer is
that G-d said, “ I am the L-rd Who created him.” If he conducts himself
in way required of our people, you must love him. Otherwise you must
not. - (Avot DeRabbi Natan)
“If your brother incites you….. Do not accept him or listen to him. Have
no pity on him…. You shall surely kill him” (Deut. 13:7,9-10): Since it
says, “Love your neighbor as yourself,” I might think one should love this
Person too. It therefore says, “Do not accept him.” (Sifri, Re’eh 89)
We are actually obligated to kill them. But we in JTF are so moderate and so law-abiding that we do not kill these traitors even though under Torah law, that is our obligation. We JTFers are simply too moderate and too law abiding to do such a thing.”
Question: Is violence between and among Jews legitimate?
Kahane: It depends on the circumstances. For example, if we begin a
a program to move the Arabs out, and there were Jews who
opposed this program, even though it was government law,
then we would have to use force against them. That’s sad. But
they would have to obey. (Israel’s Ayatollahs, Raphael Merqui)
Question: And what do you think about murders among Jews, for example
the killing of Emil Grunzweig, one of the Peace Now activists?
Kahane: Terrible……If he really was murdered. But nobody knows, nobody
knows yet; there have been a lot of rumors….But if he was really
killed by a Jew, it would be a terrible, tragic incident; this Jew
should be brought to trial and sentenced. You don’t do that to a Jew.
Question: In other words, you’d never resort to violence against a Jew? Not
even a communist Jew?
Kahane: If a Jew used violence against me, I’m not sure I wouldn’t retaliate.
But we certainly wouldn’t be the ones to start using violence
against Jews. (Israel’s Ayatollahs, Raphael Merqui)
The second is the non-Jew who was created in G-d’s image,
yet who is not dear and special to G-d and not classed as
“adam.” After all, Adam’s mission in the world passed on to
Israel. Although we are forbidden to hate or denigrate such a
non-Jew as long as he does not become an enemy of G-d and
as long as keeps the seven Noahide laws, there is no mitzvah
to love and respect him. (Kahane, Or’ Hara’ayon)
On the other hand, if a non-Jew hates and torments a Jew, even
if he is doing so for personal reasons, the very fact that he is
unafraid to provoke a Jew, G-d’s firstborn, is itself a provocation
of G-d and a profanation of His name. How much more so that
When non-Jews seek to harm the Jewish People, this constitutes
Profanation of G-d’s name and war against G-d, and not a personal
Matter. (Kahane, Or’ Hara’ayon)
It was in the sixth hour of the day that when Moses did not
come back down from the Mount, the then vocal minority,
the erev rav, called out to Aharon and the rest of the Jews to
build the golden calf. (Vilna Goan, Kol HaTor)
The Children of Israel journeyed from Rameses to Succoth,
about six hundred thousand men on foot, aside from children.
Also a mixed multitude (erev rav) went up with them, and flock
and cattle, very much livestock. (Exodus12:37-38)
What self-sacrifice! What acceptance of the yoke of Heaven!
only a person with an exalted soul, who is full of love of G-d
and of G-d’s righteousness, full of hatred of the wicked and of
wickedness, is capable of reaching such heights. Levi and Simeon
Combined within them zealotry and fierce love of G-d, coupled with
revenge against evildoers and evil. After G-d refined them through
such tribulations and diminished their arrogance and hatred, they
emerged as leaders and saints of the Jewish people. Indeed, “where
Revenge is necessary, it is great thing.”(Kahane, Or’ Hara’ayon)
Elizabeth, your view of Satan comes closest to the Christian view, which is not dualism. At least that's what it seems like.
Elizabeth, your view of Satan comes closest to the Christian view, which is not dualism. At least that's what it seems like.
Hi CF. I am not a Christian, if it sounds like I am using their idea it is not intentional, honest. This is my own idea and not anyone elses.
I just know Satan is evil and wants to create death, destruction and chaos.I believe Satan will use people to accomplish this.
I wish people would not think that I am taking ideas from other people's religion, it really is my own personal idea and from what I see
happening in the World, I came to that conclusion.
Shalom - Dox
To Chaim Ben Pesach:
First of all I would like to note that this topic should have been in the Torah and Jewish Idea section where perhaps people would take such a topic more seriously. Regardless, I would like to thank Chaim once again for stepping in to give his insight on the matter. If any of my responses sound harsh, blunt, sarcastic, or anything of the sort please it was not my intention at all, and I did not mean to do so. I don’t have to give Chaim this warning because he is a grown man and grown men can have disagreements especially when it comes to interpretations of Torah. Rather, this is leveled at a small minority here in this forum whose maturity level cannot grasp these kinds of debates.
Chaim you mentioned we are obligated to curse ‘self-hating’ Jews and even kill them. First of all, you and many forum members here use the term self-hating quite liberally. It’s been thrown at everyone and everything. To many of you self-hating simply means a secular Jew who goes against what you view politically. This is clearly not the case. These Jews could be very well evil, but self hating is not the correct term. The word has been bastardized beyond belief and many people in this forum are guilty of it. A self-hating Jew is a Jew who hates the Jewish nation. People like Noam Chomsky, Norman Finkelstein, Dan Burros, morons of this sort. These are clear cut examples of self hating Jews. People like for example Ariel Sharon and Yitzhak Rabin were viciously evil Jews, but they had a thing called “secular Jewish pride.” Like what seems rampant of many people here in the forum, which I find absurd because it’s Jewish pride with no Torah. It doesn’t make sense to me. So you see the term self hating cannot apply to them.
Indeed we are commanded to hate evil Jews:QuoteTo what extent is hatred forbidden? One should not say, “Love scholars
but hate students, love students but hate ignoramuses.” One must love
everyone, hating only heretics, inciters to heresy, and informers. As King
David said (Ps. 139:21-22), “O L-rd, do I not hate those who hate you? Do
I not strive with those who rise up against You? I hate them with the utmost
hatred. I count them among my enemies.”
Does it not say, “Love your neighbor as yourself. I am the L-rd” [i.e how
can one hate these when it says we must love our neighbor]? The answer is
that G-d said, “ I am the L-rd Who created him.” If he conducts himself
in way required of our people, you must love him. Otherwise you must
not. - (Avot DeRabbi Natan)
Our sages further said:Quote“If your brother incites you….. Do not accept him or listen to him. Have
no pity on him…. You shall surely kill him” (Deut. 13:7,9-10): Since it
says, “Love your neighbor as yourself,” I might think one should love this
Person too. It therefore says, “Do not accept him.” (Sifri, Re’eh 89)
So indeed we are not only obligated to hate evil Jews but to kill them as well. But you have misled people here to a certain extent with this statement:We are actually obligated to kill them. But we in JTF are so moderate and so law-abiding that we do not kill these traitors even though under Torah law, that is our obligation. We JTFers are simply too moderate and too law abiding to do such a thing.”
Too moderate? Too law abiding? Are you forgetting biblical punishments such as the death penalty are only applicable if there is a Sanhedrin? Without one, Halacha does not allow capital punishment. We are not mafiosos giving people street justice. It doesn’t work like that. Now I feel rather disappointed in you for your casual talk and in my opinion glee towards violence against a fellow Jew. Let’s look at what Rav Kahane HY"D had to say about this:QuoteQuestion: Is violence between and among Jews legitimate?
Kahane: It depends on the circumstances. For example, if we begin a
a program to move the Arabs out, and there were Jews who
opposed this program, even though it was government law,
then we would have to use force against them. That’s sad. But
they would have to obey. (Israel’s Ayatollahs, Raphael Merqui)
Rav Kahane HY"D clearly is leaving violence as the absolute last option. And if you still are not convinced, here is more:QuoteQuestion: And what do you think about murders among Jews, for example
the killing of Emil Grunzweig, one of the Peace Now activists?
Kahane: Terrible……If he really was murdered. But nobody knows, nobody
knows yet; there have been a lot of rumors….But if he was really
killed by a Jew, it would be a terrible, tragic incident; this Jew
should be brought to trial and sentenced. You don’t do that to a Jew.
Question: In other words, you’d never resort to violence against a Jew? Not
even a communist Jew?
Kahane: If a Jew used violence against me, I’m not sure I wouldn’t retaliate.
But we certainly wouldn’t be the ones to start using violence
against Jews. (Israel’s Ayatollahs, Raphael Merqui)
So indeed the Rav Kahane HY"D has ‘spoken’ on this matter. I agree with him 100%
To further this point on hating ‘evil’ Jews, unfortunately some non-Jewish members of this forum (of which several Jews joined in) have attacked Jews like Chandra Levy. I can’t even look back into that thread I was so disgusted. Levy is just one example, there has been plenty, too much to name. First of all, are we really in a position to say this is an evil Jew? Let alone a gentile tell us this is an evil Jew? Let alone a gentile who I won’t even write his name, tell us Jews she was a, “self-hating, leftist, Arab-loving whore.” Who does this guy think he is? We need to make it clear where gentiles stand with us, unfortunately I think there is great confusion to role of a Jew and Gentile to some our Gentile forum members. Let’s use the words our great sage to expand on this:
QuoteThe second is the non-Jew who was created in G-d’s image,
yet who is not dear and special to G-d and not classed as
“adam.” After all, Adam’s mission in the world passed on to
Israel. Although we are forbidden to hate or denigrate such a
non-Jew as long as he does not become an enemy of G-d and
as long as keeps the seven Noahide laws, there is no mitzvah
to love and respect him. (Kahane, Or’ Hara’ayon)
To the gentile that provokes a Jew[any Jew]:QuoteOn the other hand, if a non-Jew hates and torments a Jew, even
if he is doing so for personal reasons, the very fact that he is
unafraid to provoke a Jew, G-d’s firstborn, is itself a provocation
of G-d and a profanation of His name. How much more so that
When non-Jews seek to harm the Jewish People, this constitutes
Profanation of G-d’s name and war against G-d, and not a personal
Matter. (Kahane, Or’ Hara’ayon)
If this is what the Rav said about a gentile who torments a Jew, I can just imagine what the Rav would of said about the gentile who provokes the memory of a dead Jew. But let's move on.........
Hashem works in mysterious ways. I don’t think it’s a coincidence that you mentioned the event of Moses & the golden calf and the current state we find ourselves in this forum with a particular small group of members.
Let me explain what I mean; first of all, let us reveal who exactly were these people who incited the worshiping of the calf. Our sages have said:QuoteIt was in the sixth hour of the day that when Moses did not
come back down from the Mount, the then vocal minority,
the erev rav, called out to Aharon and the rest of the Jews to
build the golden calf. (Vilna Goan, Kol HaTor)
Who exactly are these people? The so called erev rav? Erev rav means the mixed multitude of nations that came out of Egypt with the Jewish people.QuoteThe Children of Israel journeyed from Rameses to Succoth,
about six hundred thousand men on foot, aside from children.
Also a mixed multitude (erev rav) went up with them, and flock
and cattle, very much livestock. (Exodus12:37-38)
They were clearly not apart of the Jewish nation. These people were the sorcerers and magicians and the outright pagans of Egypt. Even though Hashem warned Moses not to take them, he ended up accepting them. What great tragedy this brought. Moses saw what
these people were capable of and the subsequent idol worship so he gathered the Levites. They slaughtered everyone of them. Here’s what Rav Kahane HY"D said:
QuoteWhat self-sacrifice! What acceptance of the yoke of Heaven!
only a person with an exalted soul, who is full of love of G-d
and of G-d’s righteousness, full of hatred of the wicked and of
wickedness, is capable of reaching such heights. Levi and Simeon
Combined within them zealotry and fierce love of G-d, coupled with
revenge against evildoers and evil. After G-d refined them through
such tribulations and diminished their arrogance and hatred, they
emerged as leaders and saints of the Jewish people. Indeed, “where
Revenge is necessary, it is great thing.”(Kahane, Or’ Hara’ayon)
Zeal is a divine trait and they certainly showed it. But again, it was at the right time, and the right place. The Rav stressed this time and time again.
Chaim, I’d like to thank you for protecting the honor of our sages. Indeed we cannot curse our Torah scholars. I hope this message of yours gets through to some of the moderators who seem to ignore these posts.
Sorry for the long reply. I couldn’t even get to what I wanted to say about Pinchas. I’ll leave it for later.
- Nadav
Hi CF. I am not a Christian, if it sounds like I am using their idea it is not intentional, honest. This is my own idea and not anyone elses.No, no, no, that's not what I was saying at all! :) I wasn't at all being critical. I know that you are Jewish. I was just characterizing your view of Satan after you went into more detail about it. That's my own understanding of Satan, and how could I disagree with myself? :laugh:
I just know Satan is evil and wants to create death, destruction and chaos.I believe Satan will use people to accomplish this.
I wish people would not think that I am taking ideas from other people's religion, it really is my own personal idea and from what I see
happening in the World, I came to that conclusion.
Elizabeth, your view of Satan comes closest to the Christian view, which is not dualism. At least that's what it seems like.
Hi CF. I am not a Christian, if it sounds like I am using their idea it is not intentional, honest. This is my own idea and not anyone elses.
I just know Satan is evil and wants to create death, destruction and chaos.I believe Satan will use people to accomplish this.
I wish people would not think that I am taking ideas from other people's religion, it really is my own personal idea and from what I see
happening in the World, I came to that conclusion.
Shalom - Dox
Dox,
I am not knocking or judging your view of this. If this understanding explains the world for you then it will have to do. But maybe someday you might investigate the Talmud and the Tanach to discover what the sages of Judaism had to say on the subject.
Each person is only expected to reach the level which they can reach. I have changed much in seven years since I came back and I learn every day.
Ok, here I go again. I believe that Satan is using people to harm other people. Satan is jealous of G-d and he wants to annoy G-d by using people who can do his evil deeds. Satan cannot do things like a normal person would, so Satan has to find individuals to do his work for him.
Does that make any sense?
To DWI,
Well these are all things from the teachings of Rabbi Kahane HY"D. If you consider it to be moderate, I'm a moderate then. So be it.
To DWI,
Well these are all things from the teachings of Rabbi Kahane HY"D. If you consider it to be moderate, I'm a moderate then. So be it.
Nadav, I have seen numerous videos of rabbi kahane speaking and in action. I have to admit that he might of been even a little more moderate than me but he certainly wasn't moderate. I would just kill all the muzzies in Israel but Rabbi kahane was willing to pay them to leave.
Well these are all things from the teachings of Rabbi Kahane HY"D. If you consider it to be moderate, I'm a moderate then. So be it.Taken 100% out of context. Yes, HaRav Kahane (zt"l) hated Gentiles, even though around half of JDL members in New York were Irish and Italian at one time. Nice try. Prepare to be humiliated when Chim responds to you.
Where in any of the quotes do you see Kahane saying that?Well these are all things from the teachings of Rabbi Kahane HY"D. If you consider it to be moderate, I'm a moderate then. So be it.Taken 100% out of context. Yes, HaRav Kahane (zt"l) hated Gentiles, even though around half of JDL members in New York were Irish and Italian at one time. Nice try. Prepare to be humiliated when Chim responds to you.
The second is the non-Jew who was created in G-d’s image,
yet who is not dear and special to G-d and not classed as
“adam.” After all, Adam’s mission in the world passed on to
Israel. Although we are forbidden to hate or denigrate such a
non-Jew as long as he does not become an enemy of G-d and
as long as keeps the seven Noahide laws, there is no mitzvah
to love and respect him. (Kahane, Or’ Hara’ayon)
Oh and for the record, I wish every goy/gentile/non-jew/ whatever they want to be called (excuse my ignorance) in the world was more like CF. YouAww gee thanks *blushes*. You can call me whatever you like--you can call me a Martian as far as I'm concerned. The only reason the term "goy" was ever an issue was because certain numbskulls over on the AKC "forum", led of course by one learning-disabled Asperger's patient who talks about his employment problems on that "forum", love to throw around "goy" and "goyim" as some kind of racial slur. But I know that was not the original meaning of it.
have
BALLS!
Oh and for the record, I wish every goy/gentile/non-jew/ whatever they want to be called (excuse my ignorance) in the world was more like CF. YouAww gee thanks *blushes*. You can call me whatever you like--you can call me a Martian as far as I'm concerned. The only reason the term "goy" was ever an issue was because certain numbskulls over on the AKC "forum", led of course by one learning-disabled Asperger's patient who talks about his employment problems on that "forum", love to throw around "goy" and "goyim" as some kind of racial slur. But I know that was not the original meaning of it.
have
BALLS!
Oh and for the record, I wish every goy/gentile/non-jew/ whatever they want to be called (excuse my ignorance) in the world was more like CF. YouAww gee thanks *blushes*. You can call me whatever you like--you can call me a Martian as far as I'm concerned. The only reason the term "goy" was ever an issue was because certain numbskulls over on the AKC "forum", led of course by one learning-disabled Asperger's patient who talks about his employment problems on that "forum", love to throw around "goy" and "goyim" as some kind of racial slur. But I know that was not the original meaning of it.
have
BALLS!
Nadav, my big disadvantage here is that I do not have time to respond repeatedly to long threads.
a. You agree that we are obligated to hate and even kill Jewish traitors. But you claim that such death sentences cannot be carried out when there is no Sanhedrin.
Wrong! The vast majority of death sentences carried out in ancient Israel were done without the Sanhedrin.
When the Sanhedrin existed, death sentences were very rarely imposed. The standard of proof is so high when bringing someone before the Sanhedrin, it is extremely difficult to get a conviction and a death sentence.
"A Sanhedrin that puts a man to death once in seven years is called destructive. Rabbi Eliezer ben Azariah says: a Sanhedrin that puts a man to death even once in seventy years. Rabbi Akiba and Rabbi Tarfon say: Had we been in the Sanhedrin none would ever have been put to death. Rabban Simeon ben Gamaliel says: they would have multiplied shedders of blood in Israel." (Mishnah, Makkot 1:10).
As you see from this Mishnah, the Sanhedrin often did not execute anyone for 70 years.
But Rabban Gamaliel warns in the Mishnah that this extreme caution multiples the "shedders of blood in Israel". Because if you do not execute murderers, there is no deterrence and there is no justice.
However, kings of Israel can order that someone be executed. This was done frequently. So Israel's political leadership is permitted to execute without a Sanhedrin.
In fact, modern Israel has the death penalty. The extreme leftwing courts never impose it, but the death penalty exists for murder, treason, espionage and a host of other offenses. The religious parties in Israel voted in the Knesset in favor of the death penalty, and they often demand that Arab terrorists be executed. How could all of these rabbis and religious Knesset members call for the death penalty when there is no Sanhedrin?
Obviously, the claim that we cannot kill people without a Sanhedrin is a myth.
b. Your quotes of Rabbi Kahane are also distortions of reality. I knew and worked closely with the rabbi for decades.
If the rabbi had said that he approves of the killing of the Peace Now traitor, the rabbi would have been convicted of incitement and placed in Israeli prison for years. His movement would have been instantly banned. Although his movement was eventually banned anyway and the rabbi was eventually murdered, the rabbi did try to prevent the banning and did want to be able to run until he could actually be elected prime minister. So the rabbi did not make blatantly illegal statements that would have immediately ended his attempts to achieve power. He said what Israeli law required him to say. Let me clarify that in Israel, it is illegal to praise the killing of leftist traitors or of Arabs. But if you praise the murder of Jews by Arab terrorists, as Arab Knesset members do all the time, it is perfectly acceptable.
c. I do want to clarify that we in JTF will not kill Jewish traitors or break any laws. For the same reason that the rabbi had: it is not worth it for us to go to prison over this. But under Torah law, self-hating Jews do deserve death. We in JTF will not do anything to the traitors and we urge our fellow Jews not to risk imprisonment because it is not worth it.
d. You claim that we JTFers call too many Jews self-hating. How sad that someone who calls himself a "Kahanist" has such minimal understanding of these concepts.
You cite the case of Chandra Levy ys"v sr"y. This beast had an affair with one of the most notorious Jew-haters in Washington. The Congressman that this traitor slept with, Gary Condit, voted against Israel even on the most routine matters that passed almost unanimously. Chandra Levy and her self-hating mother enjoyed dressing like Arabs while visiting Arab Muslim Nazi countries. When she came back to America, she found the most vicious married anti-Semite to sleep with.
Nadav, I have to be honest: your lack of Jewish self-respect is appalling to me. If a Serb woman had slept with and supported enemies of the Serbs, don't you think every self-respecting Serb would be delighted to see such a traitor killed? And the Serbs would be right! Why is it that we have Jews, who actually call themselves "Kahanists", who do not want the traitors among their people to be eliminated? This is just sick! Like we have "Kahanists" who praise the traitor Irv Rubin ys"v even after he called for the death of the Jewish hero Jonathan Pollard in front of 30 million people on national television. The rabbi would turn over in his grave if he saw this. The only solace the rabbi would get is that JTF is representing his true legacy.
You also tell us that Yitzchak Rabin and Arik Sharon were not self-hating. They had "secular Jewish pride". Unbelievable! Tell me which Gentile leaders who have nationalist pride would knowingly volunteer to surrender the most sacred parts of their homeland to an enemy that vows to exterminate them? This is your definition of "pride", secular or otherwise? You will not find a single nation on the face of the earth that has leaders that behave with such repulsive self-hatred. But you are upset that we call them "self-hating"!
Chaim, as usual you have put your opponent in his place and force-fed them crow. Nadav must certainly be humiliated now. But there is little need to keep responding to his absurd claims. I know you have warned me about jumping to conclusions, but there is almost no reason at this point to doubt that Nadav is a troll. We can continue this over PM if you like.
By the way, I think it's very clear to everyone that the edited tzvi ben roshel fabricated what I said simply to harm gentile-jewish relations on this forum. Chaim supporting me here has confirmed this.
By the way, I think it's very clear to everyone that the edited tzvi ben roshel fabricated what I said simply to harm gentile-jewish relations on this forum. Chaim supporting me here has confirmed this.
Why do you insist to bring this up you will only harm yourself. Just for the record, I did NOT fabricate anything and you know it. I will swear on it, will you swear that you are saying the truth? and like I said before if I am lying let one of the admins who can check P.M.s (And I already gave my permission before and now), go and check the PM's you sent me and publicly say who is lying and who is telling the truth.
And about cf finding out, I thought that becuase it is what you told me. (Maybe he did or maybe he didn't I dont know).
It use to be a great show. I use to watch it when I was a kid.Oh and for the record, I wish every goy/gentile/non-jew/ whatever they want to be called (excuse my ignorance) in the world was more like CF. YouAww gee thanks *blushes*. You can call me whatever you like--you can call me a Martian as far as I'm concerned. The only reason the term "goy" was ever an issue was because certain numbskulls over on the AKC "forum", led of course by one learning-disabled Asperger's patient who talks about his employment problems on that "forum", love to throw around "goy" and "goyim" as some kind of racial slur. But I know that was not the original meaning of it.
have
BALLS!
There used to be a show called " My Favorite Martian " :robot:
It use to be a great show. I use to watch it when I was a kid.Oh and for the record, I wish every goy/gentile/non-jew/ whatever they want to be called (excuse my ignorance) in the world was more like CF. YouAww gee thanks *blushes*. You can call me whatever you like--you can call me a Martian as far as I'm concerned. The only reason the term "goy" was ever an issue was because certain numbskulls over on the AKC "forum", led of course by one learning-disabled Asperger's patient who talks about his employment problems on that "forum", love to throw around "goy" and "goyim" as some kind of racial slur. But I know that was not the original meaning of it.
have
BALLS!
There used to be a show called " My Favorite Martian " :robot:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=khj3drDYeL0
What I would like to know is where in the Torah are we commanded to kill Jewish traitors. If I'm reading the portion of the Shmona Esrai that Chaim sited correctly, we pray to G-d to smash and obliterate our traitors and informers. We don't do it ourselves. Chaim also gave examples where Moses ordered the death of those who built the golden calf, and also the killing of someone who had an affair with a woman from an enemy nation. Does this mean we, today, are obligated to kill such people ? My guess is probably not. After all, the members of this forum (Jew and non-Jew alike) live in nations and societies where Torah law is superceded by national laws where killing is concerned. But what about an Israel that was strictly Torah observant ??
As a secular Jew this concerns me. Could I be killed for eating a bacon sandwich or driving on Shabbat or
A self-hating Jew is a Jew who hates the Jewish nation. People like Noam Chomsky, Norman Finkelstein, Dan Burros, morons of this sort. These are clear cut examples of self hating Jews. People like for example Ariel Sharon and Yitzhak Rabin were viciously evil Jews, but they had a thing called “secular Jewish pride.”
And about cf finding out, I thought that becuase it is what you told me. (Maybe he did or maybe he didn't I dont know).Can't even decide on how your lie went, eh?
By the way, I think it's very clear to everyone that the edited tzvi ben roshel fabricated what I said simply to harm gentile-jewish relations on this forum. Chaim supporting me here has confirmed this.
Why do you insist to bring this up you will only harm yourself. Just for the record, I did NOT fabricate anything and you know it. I will swear on it, will you swear that you are saying the truth? and like I said before if I am lying let one of the admins who can check P.M.s (And I already gave my permission before and now), go and check the PM's you sent me and publicly say who is lying and who is telling the truth. Page- 21, 22, and 30.
And about cf finding out, I thought that becuase it is what you told me. (Maybe he did or maybe he didn't I dont know).
My regist was not accept on the www.zsido.hu's forum its the largest Jewish Community on the internet in Hungary, the case was that I chose "JewishTaskForce" username.Interesting. That is very sad, but not surprising. There are self-haters all over. What are average Jews like in Hungary though, ProudZionist? I was always under the impression that very few Jews survived the Holocaust in Hungary.
I know some Jewish guys there, and they said "Kahane was lunatic, nazi" and etc...Shame. In the USA and in Israel there are also many self-haters?
My regist was not accept on the www.zsido.hu's forum its the largest Jewish Community on the internet in Hungary, the case was that I chose "JewishTaskForce" username.Interesting. That is very sad, but not surprising. There are self-haters all over. What are average Jews like in Hungary though, ProudZionist? I was always under the impression that very few Jews survived the Holocaust in Hungary.
I know some Jewish guys there, and they said "Kahane was lunatic, nazi" and etc...Shame. In the USA and in Israel there are also many self-haters?
By the way, I think it's very clear to everyone that the edited tzvi ben roshel fabricated what I said simply to harm gentile-jewish relations on this forum. Chaim supporting me here has confirmed this.
Why do you insist to bring this up you will only harm yourself. Just for the record, I did NOT fabricate anything and you know it. I will swear on it, will you swear that you are saying the truth? and like I said before if I am lying let one of the admins who can check P.M.s (And I already gave my permission before and now), go and check the PM's you sent me and publicly say who is lying and who is telling the truth. Page- 21, 22, and 30.
And about cf finding out, I thought that becuase it is what you told me. (Maybe he did or maybe he didn't I dont know).
Tzvi, I do not write this to hurt you. You are a Jew, and I truly want you to behave in a manner that will bring Hashem's blessings upon you.
But you are again committing a terrible sin.
Your first sin was when you publicly threatened to reveal something which you claim that DWI wrote to you in confidence. (Whether DWI wrote it or not is irrelevant to me. I have not "investigated" it nor do I intend to waste my time on something that is so petty. I can only state that DWI has told me many things during the past 2 years, and he has never lied to me.) But as I explained in the earlier posts, even if for the sake of argument we assume that what Tzvi is saying is true, to publicly threaten to reveal what another Jew wrote in confidence is an ugly act of backstabbing. And for a "religious" Jew to do this is even more appalling in my opinion.
Now you are compounding the sin. Instead of publicly apologizing and requesting forgiveness from DWI, you are asking him to swear? Let us again assume that you Tzvi are telling the truth. What if DWI decided to swear falsely, G-d forbid, in order to get himself out of an embarrassing situation? Then you Tzvi would be responsible for convincing another Jew to swear falsely. Are you aware of how serious it is to convince a fellow Jew to sin, G-d forbid? Do you know that there is no tshuva for the offense of convincing a fellow Jew to sin? Because you can do tshuva for your own sins, but you can't do tshuva for someone else's sins.
Yetzer harah (the evil inclination) is controlling your actions now, Tzvi. Yetzer harah is telling you that you have to defend HaRav Ovadia and that the ends justify the means. You can argue with DWI and CF and you can disagree with them. And you are right that cursing Torah scholars is absolutely forbidden. But you cannot tempt another Jew to sin. Ask your rabbi if I am right.