JTF.ORG Forum
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: tron77 on August 18, 2009, 09:55:49 PM
-
Just curious if Judaism is the same as Christianity, in that if someone who is gay wants to give up his or her lifestyle they can?
-
Just curious if Judaism is the same as Christianity, in that if someone who is gay wants to give up his or her lifestyle they can?
LOL. Judaism is against homosexuality. If somebody decides they are done with men and want women, then that's a GOOD THING!!! Dix belong in CHIX!!
-
ROTFLMAO :::D :::D :::D
-
so only islam throws them off buildings. but doing a goat is ok so long as you dont eat its meat.... swear i didnt make this up
-
Just curious if Judaism is the same as Christianity, in that if someone who is gay wants to give up his or her lifestyle they can?
LOL. Judaism is against homosexuality. If somebody decides they are done with men and want women, then that's a GOOD THING!!! Dix belong in CHIX!!
I'm going to rephrase what you said since it is not ok for a faggot to start sleeping around with women just because he stopped sleeping with men. If a faggot decides to stop sleeping around with men and to pursue finding an appropriate wife they have taken the first step towards betshuva. I won't go far enough to say that they should have children after commiting such horrible sins, but if they are truly repentant and change to the point where the can be responsible parents, that might be possible.
-
Just curious if Judaism is the same as Christianity, in that if someone who is gay wants to give up his or her lifestyle they can?
LOL. Judaism is against homosexuality. If somebody decides they are done with men and want women, then that's a GOOD THING!!! Dix belong in CHIX!!
I'm going to rephrase what you said since it is not ok for a faggot to start sleeping around with women just because he stopped sleeping with men. If a faggot decides to stop sleeping around with men and to pursue finding an appropriate wife they have taken the first step towards betshuva. I won't go far enough to say that they should have children after commiting such horrible sins, but if they are truly repentant and change to the point where the can be responsible parents, that might be possible.
Thanks. I meant that :soldier:
-
Torah doesn't say anything about being 'gay'... Torah expressly forbids the male-male sexual intercourse... But there is nothing about being 'gay' in Torah...
Here is the information from jewfaq.org
http://www.jewfaq.org/sex.htm
Homosexuality
Sexual relations between men are clearly forbidden by the Torah. (Lev. 18:22). Such acts are condemned in the strongest possible terms, as abhorrent. The only other sexual sin that is described in such strong terms is the sin of remarrying a woman you had divorced after she had been married to another man. (See Deut. 24:4). The sin of sexual relations between men is punishable by death (Lev. 20:13), as are the sins of adultery and incest.
It is important to note, however, that it is homosexual acts that are forbidden, not homosexual orientation. Judaism focuses on a person's actions rather than a person's desires. A man's desire to have sex with another man is not a sin, so long as he does not act upon that desire. In fact, it could be said that a man who feels such desires but does not act upon them is worthy of more merit in that regard than a man who does not feel such desires at all, just as one who refrains from pork because it is forbidden deserves more merit than one who refrains from pork because he doesn't like the taste.
I have seen some modern Orthodox sources suggest that if homosexuality is truly something hardwired in the brain, as most gay activists suggest, then a man who acts upon that desire is not morally responsible for his actions, but I am not sure how wide-spread that opinion is. In any case, it is not quite as liberal a position as some would have you believe: essentially, it is equivalent to saying that a kleptomaniac would not be held morally responsible for stealing.
Interestingly, female homosexual relations are not forbidden by the Torah. There is very little discussion of female homosexuality in the Talmud. The few sources that mention lesbian relations say that they do not disqualify a woman from certain privileges of the priesthood, because it is "merely licentiousness." There is a surprising lack of discussion of such issues as whether lesbianism would be grounds for divorcing a woman without her consent or without ketubah. Rambam asserted that lesbian practices are forbidden because it was a "practice of Egypt" and because it constituted rebelliousness.
Leviticus 18
20 And thou shalt not lie carnally with thy neighbour's wife, to defile thyself with her.
21 And thou shalt not give any of thy seed to set them apart to Molech, neither shalt thou profane the name of thy God: I am the LORD.
22 Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind; it is abomination.
23 And thou shalt not lie with any beast to defile thyself therewith; neither shall any woman stand before a beast, to lie down thereto; it is perversion.
24 Defile not ye yourselves in any of these things; for in all these the nations are defiled, which I cast out from before you.
-
I agree with you to a point on this issue, Muman. Somebody who refrains from a sin they are not tempted by is not really struggling and resisting anything. In one married couple I know, the husband has a much greater sex drive than his wife, and has at times stumbled into sexual sin such as pornography. His wife, who has a vastly lower libido and is not visually tempted like he is, has at times bragged about "controlling herself". BS. She has never been sexually tempted.
-
I agree with you to a point on this issue, Muman. Somebody who refrains from a sin they are not tempted by is not really struggling and resisting anything. In one married couple I know, the husband has a much greater sex drive than his wife, and has at times stumbled into sexual sin such as pornography. His wife, who has a vastly lower libido and is not visually tempted like he is, has at times bragged about "controlling herself". BS. She has never been sexually tempted.
So you understand where Mo and I were coming from in the thread about Kosher food... We both have a desire for Cheeseburgers, or bacon cheeseburgers, and we have overcome that desire... We don't eat it because Hashem commanded it, not because we don't like the food...
-
Yes, of course I give you credit for that. But I did not start any of the cheeseburger topics.
-
Torah doesn't say anything about being 'gay'... Torah expressly forbids the male-male sexual intercourse... But there is nothing about being 'gay' in Torah...
Here is the information from jewfaq.org
http://www.jewfaq.org/sex.htm
Homosexuality
Sexual relations between men are clearly forbidden by the Torah. (Lev. 18:22). Such acts are condemned in the strongest possible terms, as abhorrent. The only other sexual sin that is described in such strong terms is the sin of remarrying a woman you had divorced after she had been married to another man. (See Deut. 24:4). The sin of sexual relations between men is punishable by death (Lev. 20:13), as are the sins of adultery and incest.
It is important to note, however, that it is homosexual acts that are forbidden, not homosexual orientation. Judaism focuses on a person's actions rather than a person's desires. A man's desire to have sex with another man is not a sin, so long as he does not act upon that desire. In fact, it could be said that a man who feels such desires but does not act upon them is worthy of more merit in that regard than a man who does not feel such desires at all, just as one who refrains from pork because it is forbidden deserves more merit than one who refrains from pork because he doesn't like the taste.
I have seen some modern Orthodox sources suggest that if homosexuality is truly something hardwired in the brain, as most gay activists suggest, then a man who acts upon that desire is not morally responsible for his actions, but I am not sure how wide-spread that opinion is. In any case, it is not quite as liberal a position as some would have you believe: essentially, it is equivalent to saying that a kleptomaniac would not be held morally responsible for stealing.
Interestingly, female homosexual relations are not forbidden by the Torah. There is very little discussion of female homosexuality in the Talmud. The few sources that mention lesbian relations say that they do not disqualify a woman from certain privileges of the priesthood, because it is "merely licentiousness." There is a surprising lack of discussion of such issues as whether lesbianism would be grounds for divorcing a woman without her consent or without ketubah. Rambam asserted that lesbian practices are forbidden because it was a "practice of Egypt" and because it constituted rebelliousness.
Leviticus 18
20 And thou shalt not lie carnally with thy neighbour's wife, to defile thyself with her.
21 And thou shalt not give any of thy seed to set them apart to Molech, neither shalt thou profane the name of thy G-d: I am the LORD.
22 Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind; it is abomination.
23 And thou shalt not lie with any beast to defile thyself therewith; neither shall any woman stand before a beast, to lie down thereto; it is perversion.
24 Defile not ye yourselves in any of these things; for in all these the nations are defiled, which I cast out from before you.
When I was much younger in Yeshiva day school and we learned that "a man shouldn't lie with another man as he lies with a woman" I always wondered what that meant. The only (kosher) way for a man and woman to have intercourse is with a body part that only a woman has. So therefore it is impossible for a man to lie with another man the same way a man lies with a woman. Is it 'lies' or 'lays'?
-
<snip>
When I was much younger in Yeshiva day school and we learned that "a man shouldn't lie with another man as he lies with a woman" I always wondered what that meant. The only (kosher) way for a man and woman to have intercourse is with a body part that only a woman has. So therefore it is impossible for a man to lie with another man the same way a man lies with a woman. Is it 'lies' or 'lays'?
I am not an authority on homosexual sex, but from what I understand the Torah is talking about one person being the penetrator, and the other being the penetrated. When a man lies with a woman the man is obviously the one who must penetrate, while the woman is penetrated. In a Kabbalistic sense this is related to the concept of the giver, and the receiver. The man is usually the giver, the giver of seed and of making a living. The woman is the receiver, who nurtures the seed till it blooms as a baby human being. In the unnatural case of homosexual sex, the seed is wasted, the receiver and the giver are not fufilling the command of being fruitful, the completion {Shalem} of unifying the male and female souls is prevented because a man and another man cannot be complete souls.
There are many reasons this act is an abomination to Hashem. I have only briefly touched on some of those issues...
-
Just curious if Judaism is the same as Christianity, in that if someone who is gay wants to give up his or her lifestyle they can?
LOL. Judaism is against homosexuality. If somebody decides they are done with men and want women, then that's a GOOD THING!!! Dix belong in CHIX!!
ROFL your funny Mo :::D :::D :::D :::D :::D :::D :::D :::D
-
Maybe in Islam. All bestiality is forbidden in Judaism, and although there may be punishments by a Torah state for homosexuals caught in the act, I doubt that "throwing them off a building" would be the form of execution used.
How on earth do you catch a homosexual in the act? I don't think I want to know.
-
<snip>
When I was much younger in Yeshiva day school and we learned that "a man shouldn't lie with another man as he lies with a woman" I always wondered what that meant. The only (kosher) way for a man and woman to have intercourse is with a body part that only a woman has. So therefore it is impossible for a man to lie with another man the same way a man lies with a woman. Is it 'lies' or 'lays'?
I am not an authority on homosexual sex, but from what I understand the Torah is talking about one person being the penetrator, and the other being the penetrated. When a man lies with a woman the man is obviously the one who must penetrate, while the woman is penetrated. In a Kabbalistic sense this is related to the concept of the giver, and the receiver. The man is usually the giver, the giver of seed and of making a living. The woman is the receiver, who nurtures the seed till it blooms as a baby human being. In the unnatural case of homosexual sex, the seed is wasted, the receiver and the giver are not fufilling the command of being fruitful, the completion {Shalem} of unifying the male and female souls is prevented because a man and another man cannot be complete souls.
There are many reasons this act is an abomination to Hashem. I have only briefly touched on some of those issues...
Is Judaism against condom use?
-
<snip>
Is Judaism against condom use?
I believe so...
From that site I quoted before on Sex...
http://www.jewfaq.org/sex.htm
Birth Control
In principle, birth control is permitted, so long as the couple is committed to eventually fulfilling the mitzvah to be fruitful and multiply (which, at a minimum, consists of having two children, one of each gender). The issue in birth control is not whether it is permitted, but what method is permitted, and under what circumstances.
Birth control is rather clearly permitted in circumstances where pregnancy would pose a medical risk to the mother or her other children. For example, the Talmud recognizes the use of birth control by very young women, pregnant women or nursing women. However, there is some variance of opinion as to what other circumstances might permit birth control. If this is an issue for you, you should consult a competent rabbinic authority.
It is well-established that methods that destroy the seed or block the passage of the seed are not permitted, thus condoms are not permitted for birth control. However, the pill is well-recognized as an acceptable form of birth control under Jewish law. I have also heard some say that a condom would be permitted under Jewish law to prevent the transmission of AIDS or similar diseases, because preserving the life of the uninfected spouse takes priority; however, I am not certain how authoritative this view is. If this is an issue for you, you should consult a competent rabbinic authority.
-
<snip>
When I was much younger in Yeshiva day school and we learned that "a man shouldn't lie with another man as he lies with a woman" I always wondered what that meant. The only (kosher) way for a man and woman to have intercourse is with a body part that only a woman has. So therefore it is impossible for a man to lie with another man the same way a man lies with a woman. Is it 'lies' or 'lays'?
I am not an authority on homosexual sex, but from what I understand the Torah is talking about one person being the penetrator, and the other being the penetrated. When a man lies with a woman the man is obviously the one who must penetrate, while the woman is penetrated. In a Kabbalistic sense this is related to the concept of the giver, and the receiver. The man is usually the giver, the giver of seed and of making a living. The woman is the receiver, who nurtures the seed till it blooms as a baby human being. In the unnatural case of homosexual sex, the seed is wasted, the receiver and the giver are not fufilling the command of being fruitful, the completion {Shalem} of unifying the male and female souls is prevented because a man and another man cannot be complete souls.
There are many reasons this act is an abomination to Hashem. I have only briefly touched on some of those issues...
Is Judaism against condom use?
Unless you get permission from a Rabbi.
-
Muman,
I am curious as to why "be fruitful and increase in number" is not part of the Noahide laws. G-d spoke this to Adam and Eve, who were the first humans on earth and obviously predated the Jews.
Personally I don't believe everyone needs to reproduce, but that is just my own opinion and I know Torah Judaism disagrees.
-
How on earth do you catch a homosexual in the act? I don't think I want to know.
Lurk on StørmFrønt long enough. :laugh:
-
Muman,
I am curious as to why "be fruitful and increase in number" is not part of the Noahide laws. G-d spoke this to Adam and Eve, who were the first humans on earth and obviously predated the Jews.
Personally I don't believe everyone needs to reproduce, but that is just my own opinion and I know Torah Judaism disagrees.
Because G-d knew how many shvartze chalariyas there would be and did NOT want THEM multiplying.
-
I thought the Noahide Laws were for righteous people.
-
Thanks for the insight Muman. I don't really think a few lost sperm are that important, considering the fact that most of them will not fertilize an egg anyway, and most sexual encounters between a man and a wife will not result in pregnancy anyway. I'm not sure why this is considered to be of such importance.
-
Thanks for the insight Muman. I don't really think a few lost sperm are that important, considering the fact that most of them will not fertilize an egg anyway, and most sexual encounters between a man and a wife will not result in pregnancy anyway. I'm not sure why this is considered to be of such importance.
I think this is just an area where Torah Judaism and other religions differ. We'll just have to leave it at that.
Edit: Catholicism believes something similar--even stricter actually.
-
Thanks for the insight Muman. I don't really think a few lost sperm are that important, considering the fact that most of them will not fertilize an egg anyway, and most sexual encounters between a man and a wife will not result in pregnancy anyway. I'm not sure why this is considered to be of such importance.
I think this is just an area where Torah Judaism and other religions differ. We'll just have to leave it at that.
Torah Judaism is a shtickl redundant no? I mean what other Judaism is there? NON-TORAH Judaism? :::D :::D :::D :::D
-
Well, there is Deform "Judaism" of course, which is the worship of the almighty negro.
-
Muman,
I am curious as to why "be fruitful and increase in number" is not part of the Noahide laws. G-d spoke this to Adam and Eve, who were the first humans on earth and obviously predated the Jews.
Personally I don't believe everyone needs to reproduce, but that is just my own opinion and I know Torah Judaism disagrees.
Because G-d knew how many shvartze chalariyas there would be and did NOT want THEM multiplying.
Very eloquently put, and actually correct.. The Noachide laws were given to Noah after the world had become foul with theft and immorality. Many things changed at that time as Hashem wanted to start over again... But Noah was a disappointment. It is interesting that he was considered the most righteous of his generation, yet he was lowered in stature by the end of his story. The nations got the seven Noachide laws in order to maintain order in the world. The mitzvah of procreation was a gift given by Hashem to the Jewish nation at mount Sinai along with the 612 others.
If the nations were to have this mitzvah then the world may once again be overflowing with theft and immorality.
-
Well, there is Deform "Judaism" of course, which is the worship of the almighty negro.
And everything in between that and Orthodoxy. When did the term "Orthodox Judaism" get coined, anyway?
-
Well, there is Deform "Judaism" of course, which is the worship of the almighty negro.
And everything in between that and Orthodoxy. When did the term "Orthodox Judaism" get coined, anyway?
When Reform was 'invented'
-
What happened to all the other posts in this thread?
-
What happened to all the other posts in this thread?
I moved them to a new thread...
-
Back to the subject of being homosexual--what explanation do the Sages give for why gayness exists in the world?
-
Back to the subject of being homosexual--what explanation do the Sages give for why gayness exists in the world?
That is something I really have no idea about at this time...
Let me see if there is anything said about 'why' it exists...
Well, I found something which makes an attempt to explain this issue:
http://www.simpletoremember.com/articles/a/homosexuality-and-judaism/
Judaism, Nature and Homosexuality
A primary function and overall goal of the commandments is nothing less than the transformation of the individual. Judaism addresses the human being as it finds him — in his “natural” state — seething with animal passions, ridden with negative character traits. Through the agency of those Divine tools of refinement that are the commandments, the Torah beckons man to exchange his obsession with sensuality, his pettiness, self-centeredness and worse for a world of spiritual grandeur and ultimate meaning.
The implacable foe with which Judaism’s battle is forever pitched, then, is not so much secularism or even non-belief as it is “nature,” that is, the human being’s intense desire to eschew growth and change, to remain static in the face of God’s summons to greatness. No one perceived — and furiously opposed — this overarching Judaic objective more than the modern-day manifestation of evil incarnate, Adolf Hitler. He wrote in “Mein Kampf,” “a man must…understand the fundamental necessity of Nature’s rule…. Then he will feel that in a universe where…force alone forever masters weakness ... there can be no special laws for man.”
The nature of the challenge posed by the Torah will, of course, vary with the individual, based on proclivities both inborn and acquired. For some, that challenge will be the struggle to control anger and aggressiveness, while for others, it will be the attempt to rein in arrogance and reach out in acknowledgement of the other. Yet others’ particularly daunting charge will be combating powerful sensual drives, with their potential to reduce the unlimited human potential to nothing more than the pursuit of shallow, momentary fleshy pleasures. This is no less true for the individual who claims to have been “born gay” than for anyone else. …
When the Torah decreed that all sexual activity should be channeled into marriage, writes Dennis Prager, it ensured that sex no longer dominated society, heightened male-female love and sexuality, and began the arduous task of elevating the status of women. The ban on homosexuality desexualized religion[1], gave boundaries and controls to the strongest of man’s sensual urges which until then had been expressed in every which way[2]When Judaism demanded that all sexual activity be channeled into marriage, it changed the world. The subsequent dominance of the Western world, says Dennis Prager, can largely be attributed to the sexual revolution initiated by Judaism, and later carried forward by Christianity.
The revolutionary nature of Judaism’s prohibiting all forms of non-marital sex was nowhere more radical, more challenging to the prevailing assumptions of mankind, than with regard to homosexuality.
Indeed, Judaism may be said to have invented the notion of homosexuality, for in the ancient world sexuality was not divided between heterosexuality and homosexuality. That division was the Bible’s doing. Before the Bible, the world divided sexuality between … active and passive roles[3].
As Martha Nussbaum, professor of philosophy at Brown University, recently wrote, the ancients were no more concerned with people’s gender preference than people today are with others’ eating preferences:
Boys and women were very often treated interchangeably as objects of (male) desire. What was socially important is to penetrate rather than to be penetrated. Sex is understood fundamentally not as interaction, but as a doing of something to someone. In this environment, homosexuality was rampant[4].
Judaism changed all this. It rendered the “gender of the object” very “morally problematic”; it declared that no one is “interchangeable” sexually. And as a result, it ensured that sex would in fact be “fundamentally interaction” and not simply “a doing of something to someone.”
It is the Hebrew Bible that gave humanity such ideas as a universal, moral, loving God; ethical obligations to this God; the need for history to move forward to moral and spiritual redemption; the belief that history has meaning; and the notion that human freedom and social justice are the divinely desired states for all people. It gave the world the Ten Commandments, ethical monotheism, and the concept of holiness (the goal of raising human beings from the animal-like to the Godlike).
Judaism cannot make peace with homosexuality because homosexuality denies many of Judaism’s most fundamental principles. It denies life, it denies God’s expressed desire that men and women cohabit, and it denies the root structure that Judaism wishes for all mankind, the family[5].
-
Back to the subject of being homosexual--what explanation do the Sages give for why gayness exists in the world?
It's like any sickness I guess. The same way those things exist, so does homosexuality. The brain is a funny organ.
-
My orthodox friend told me about how girl on girl was not written against exactly. Am I allowed to say thats hot? But I guess the point of my question was just to ask that if something is forbidden, and it does not hurt other people in the context of rape murder etc, then if a person wishes to change they then are given that chance. It then would come down to exact laws in that someone mentioned having to be caught in a act, and so since that is most likley not going to happen, then it has to be more about the idea of correction, or change? And now that we are on these subjects what about drug use in the Torah? anything?
-
Lesbianism is also forbidden in Judaism. G-d told Jews not to imitate the ways of the other nations. Apparently, lesbianism was quite the fashion in ancient Egypt. (This is according to Chaim in one of the past Ask JTF shows.)
-
Muman,
I am curious as to why "be fruitful and increase in number" is not part of the Noahide laws. G-d spoke this to Adam and Eve, who were the first humans on earth and obviously predated the Jews.
Personally I don't believe everyone needs to reproduce, but that is just my own opinion and I know Torah Judaism disagrees.
I believe this mitza is actually given to all living things.
-
My orthodox friend told me about how girl on girl was not written against exactly. Am I allowed to say thats hot? But I guess the point of my question was just to ask that if something is forbidden, and it does not hurt other people in the context of rape murder etc, then if a person wishes to change they then are given that chance. It then would come down to exact laws in that someone mentioned having to be caught in a act, and so since that is most likley not going to happen, then it has to be more about the idea of correction, or change? And now that we are on these subjects what about drug use in the Torah? anything?
Ask JTF for a good answer.
-
Muman,
I am curious as to why "be fruitful and increase in number" is not part of the Noahide laws. G-d spoke this to Adam and Eve, who were the first humans on earth and obviously predated the Jews.
Personally I don't believe everyone needs to reproduce, but that is just my own opinion and I know Torah Judaism disagrees.
I believe this mitza is actually given to all living things.
Actually according to Jewish belief it is not...
Please read what I posted yesterday..
http://jtf.org/forum_english/index.php/topic,37224.msg374455.html#msg374455
I reposted it here:
AT&T Bell Laboratories, in Columbus, Ohio asks:
n Parashat Vayishlach, you wrote that "There are only three mitzvot in Sefer Bereishit. The first mitzvah, to be fruitful and multiply, is essential to the survival of all of Mankind..." And yet, on the surface, "p'ru ur'vu" is not one of the commandments for the Bnei Noach. Why not?
Dear AT&T,
There are 7 commandments from Hashem for the Bnei Noach to govern their behavior. They are:
Prohibition against Prohibition against adultery.
idolatry. Prohibition against eating a limb
Prohibition against of a live animal.
blasphemy. The commandment to establish courts
Prohibition against of law.
murder.
Prohibition against
theft.
The Sefer HaChinuch lists the three mitzvot taught in the Book of Bereishit, and writes that they apply only to the Jewish People.
1. "Be fruitful and multiply" in Parashat Bereishit.
2. "Brit mila" in Parashat Lech Lecha.
3. "Don't eat the gid hanashe" in Vayishlach.
Brit mila is a covenant "between Me and you [Avraham] and your seed after you" (Bereishit 17:10). Thus, the Bnei Noach are excluded from this mitzvah.
In Vayishlach, the Torah states "The children of Israel shall not eat the gid hanashe" (Bereishit 31:33). Once again the Bnei Noach are exempted.
The mitzvah to be fruitful and multiply was given to the first Man (Bereishit 1:28) and repeated to Noach (Bereishit 9:1). It would appear equally incumbent upon all Mankind. Yet, this is *not* one of the 7 Noachide Laws.
The Talmud explains that:
"All mitzvot that were given to the Bnei Noach and *repeated* at Sinai, apply to both Jews and non-Jews. Those mitzvot that were given to the Bnei Noach but *not* repeated at Sinai were given only to the Jews."
"P'ru ur'vu" was not repeated at Sinai. So, even though Adam and Noach had been personally commanded to reproduce, the mitzvah did not become one of the 7 Noachide Laws.
It should be noted, however, that there is a special obligation to ensure that the world is fully populated, and that this obligation is equally applicable to Jew and Gentile. It is derived from a verse in the writings of the Prophets which calls upon Mankind inhabit as much of the Creation as possible:
"He [Hashem] did not create the world to be desolate; [rather] to be settled he formed it."
Sources:
* Tractate Sanhedrin, 59a.
* Maimonides, Mishneh Torah, Hilchot Melachim ch. 9.
* Sefer HaChinuch.
* The Path of the Righteous Gentile, by Chaim Clorfene and Yakov Regalsky (Targum Press).
* Isaiah 45.
"All mitzvot that were given to the Bnei Noach and *repeated* at Sinai, apply to both Jews and non-Jews. Those mitzvot that were given to the Bnei Noach but *not* repeated at Sinai were given only to the Jews."
-
My orthodox friend told me about how girl on girl was not written against exactly. Am I allowed to say thats hot?
Girl on girl is disgusting. If you truly think it's hot you have clearly been brainwashed by our culture.
-
My orthodox friend told me about how girl on girl was not written against exactly. Am I allowed to say thats hot?
Girl on girl is disgusting. If you truly think it's hot you have clearly been brainwashed by our culture.
True, it is all sick... When sex is used like this it makes Hashem disgusted at mankind. While Hashem wanted sexual relations to be pleasurable, it was so that we would not become extinct. But the pleasure of sex is being used for simple pleasure, and this is the abomination.
-
Just curious if Judaism is the same as Christianity, in that if someone who is gay wants to give up his or her lifestyle they can?
Yup..but should add that's it's not like changing underwear...i'm sure it's very hard to change from one to the other although it should be encouraged.
-
so only islam throws them off buildings. but doing a goat is ok so long as you dont eat its meat.... swear i didnt make this up
There are actually loopholes where Islam allows homosexuality and pedophilia...
-
Just curious if Judaism is the same as Christianity, in that if someone who is gay wants to give up his or her lifestyle they can?
Yup..but should add that's it's not like changing underwear...i'm sure it's very hard to change from one to the other although it should be encouraged.
The closest I can imagine is the drug addict {which I am familiar with}. Pleasure is an addiction, and when people get sensual input and they enjoy it, then they rationalize every reason why it is not wrong to engage in the activity. It is said that the third time someone makes a sin, it becomes routine for them. I know it is within human capabilities to make radical changes in your reality. I have experiences which really tested the material I am created from.
-
Muman, I posted a more detailed opinion about this issue on the thread that deals with it. Bottome line is it is obvious that God blessed all living things with "pru u'rvu" and again specifically he repeated this blessing to Noah and his Sons. The way I see it, Either The 7 commandments of Noah don't constitute the only commandments that apply to them. From what I understand there is such halachic opinion that explains the 7 commandments are the prohibitive ("don't") laws, but the procreation is a "do" law. Or procreation is considered a mitzvah only for Israel, but it is nonetheless a blessing that applies to all man kind and all living things in general.
-
Well if I have the right notion of the Torah, I would say a gay who never ACTS as homosexual - that means committing intercourse with men, there should not be any punishment. The act itself is punished with death. A gay should then stay at least abstinent from sex to not commit a sin. I think this is also the interpretaion in Christian faith (at least Orthodox and Catholic, I know some Lutheran Churches which don't condemn it. The biggest Lutheran church in my town even has a gay-lesbian choir!!!).
-
"A man should cleave to his wife's skin"...I think that is the quote that indicates that sex between a husband and wife shoudl be as natural as possible. Unless health were an issue, condoms shouldn't be used between husband and wife.
<snip>
When I was much younger in Yeshiva day school and we learned that "a man shouldn't lie with another man as he lies with a woman" I always wondered what that meant. The only (kosher) way for a man and woman to have intercourse is with a body part that only a woman has. So therefore it is impossible for a man to lie with another man the same way a man lies with a woman. Is it 'lies' or 'lays'?
I am not an authority on homosexual sex, but from what I understand the Torah is talking about one person being the penetrator, and the other being the penetrated. When a man lies with a woman the man is obviously the one who must penetrate, while the woman is penetrated. In a Kabbalistic sense this is related to the concept of the giver, and the receiver. The man is usually the giver, the giver of seed and of making a living. The woman is the receiver, who nurtures the seed till it blooms as a baby human being. In the unnatural case of homosexual sex, the seed is wasted, the receiver and the giver are not fufilling the command of being fruitful, the completion {Shalem} of unifying the male and female souls is prevented because a man and another man cannot be complete souls.
There are many reasons this act is an abomination to Hashem. I have only briefly touched on some of those issues...
Is Judaism against condom use?
-
Lev 18:22-29
You shall not lie with a male as with a woman. It is an abomination. 23 Nor shall you mate with any animal, to defile yourself with it. Nor shall any woman stand before an animal to mate with it. It is perversion. 24 Do not defile yourselves with any of these things; for by all these the nations are defiled, which I am casting out before you.
-
Lev 18:22-29
You shall not lie with a male as with a woman. It is an abomination. 23 Nor shall you mate with any animal, to defile yourself with it. Nor shall any woman stand before an animal to mate with it. It is perversion. 24 Do not defile yourselves with any of these things; for by all these the nations are defiled, which I am casting out before you.
That should have been put into the Constitution.
LOL.
-
Maybe in Islam. All bestiality is forbidden in Judaism, and although there may be punishments by a Torah state for homosexuals caught in the act, I doubt that "throwing them off a building" would be the form of execution used.
How on earth do you catch a homosexual in the act? I don't think I want to know.
LOL great question
Maybe one of the participants gets cold feet and then reports his buddy to the beth din....
-
Lesbianism is also forbidden in Judaism. G-d told Jews not to imitate the ways of the other nations. Apparently, lesbianism was quite the fashion in ancient Egypt. (This is according to Chaim in one of the past Ask JTF shows.)
I'm trying to remember who lists that as one of the practices of the Egyptians that it is referring to. I believe it might have been Rambam. With respect to Chaim and of course the Rambam, I think there is a wide array of opinion on this and many hold that it is in a category of 'not necessarily assur but still discouraged.' That sort of thing. There is also the opinion that it's allowed. But even by them, I'm sure that changes once a girl is married.
-
"A man should cleave to his wife's skin"...I think that is the quote that indicates that sex between a husband and wife shoudl be as natural as possible. Unless health were an issue, condoms shouldn't be used between husband and wife.
Thanks Dr. Dan. I have to wonder if preventing children that the couple could not afford to care for would be a valid reason in Judaism. Ideally righteous people should have as many children as they can, but what if they're not able to provide for more than one or two children?
-
I'm trying to remember who lists that as one of the practices of the Egyptians that it is referring to. I believe it might have been Rambam. With respect to Chaim and of course the Rambam, I think there is a wide array of opinion on this and many hold that it is in a category of 'not necessarily assur but still discouraged.' That sort of thing. There is also the opinion that it's allowed. But even by them, I'm sure that changes once a girl is married.
Not to promote Christianity but the apostle Paul, speaking as a Pharisaical Jew, stated that lesbianism is just as abominable as gay male sex, Romans 1:26.
-
Maybe in Islam. All bestiality is forbidden in Judaism, and although there may be punishments by a Torah state for homosexuals caught in the act, I doubt that "throwing them off a building" would be the form of execution used.
How on earth do you catch a homosexual in the act? I don't think I want to know.
LOL great question
Maybe one of the participants gets cold feet and then reports his buddy to the beth din....
Some of these people have a habit of doing "it" in public parks, beaches etc. I believe this type of act may constitute being caught on the act if there are two or more unfortunate witnesses present.
-
I'm not going to be the rabbinic authority on this answer, but I will do my best to answer you question.
In a situation in a home where a young couple cannot even afford a morsel of bread for shabbat, it is permitted to use certain types of birth control as long as the man isn't spilling his seed ( withdrawl) and as long as he is cleaving to his wife when they have sex. Therefore, some rabbis might allow the use of birth control pills in this situation. I have heard of it before for a couple of orthodox Jews I know.
"A man should cleave to his wife's skin"...I think that is the quote that indicates that sex between a husband and wife shoudl be as natural as possible. Unless health were an issue, condoms shouldn't be used between husband and wife.
Thanks Dr. Dan. I have to wonder if preventing children that the couple could not afford to care for would be a valid reason in Judaism. Ideally righteous people should have as many children as they can, but what if they're not able to provide for more than one or two children?
-
I'm not going to be the rabbinic authority on this answer, but I will do my best to answer you question.
In a situation in a home where a young couple cannot even afford a morsel of bread for shabbat, it is permitted to use certain types of birth control as long as the man isn't spilling his seed ( withdrawl) and as long as he is cleaving to his wife when they have sex. Therefore, some rabbis might allow the use of birth control pills in this situation. I have heard of it before for a couple of orthodox Jews I know.
Thank you Dr. Dan.
-
Being gay is a mental sickness/disorder, which can be cured by Yoga. I hope the gay people take to it, and overcome their disorder, and become normal.
-
What exactly is the Hindu position on homosexuality?
I thought that India has a hijra caste of transgendered people, who generally make their living as prostitutes. What does Hinduism say about them?
-
What exactly is the Hindu position on homosexuality?
I thought that India has a hijra caste of transgendered people, who generally make their living as prostitutes. What does Hinduism say about them?
yes the hijras exist, but its not a caste, its third gender.. they live in isolation and hardly come out in general public or society.
about the position of hindus on this,
http://www.merinews.com/article/no-gay-marriages-in-religious-places-vhp/15775714.shtml
btw India's most celebrated gay personality is http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manvendra_Singh_Gohil
He was on Ophra too LOL
Being a prince, he got lot of media coverage. But the day he announced his orientation, his princely family disowned him!
-
How can religious Hindus be against the hijras when traditional Hindu culture believes that a third gender really exists?
-
I have the impression that Hinduism sort of tolerates the hijras, but in a very marginal place of society. Hijras traditionally make their living by demanding ransom money so they don't crash uninvited to celebrations and festivities, and of course also from prostitution.
-
Hijras are certainly the closest thing to "gay" people in the established Western sense, even if they wouldn't define themselves as such.
-
I'm trying to remember who lists that as one of the practices of the Egyptians that it is referring to. I believe it might have been Rambam. With respect to Chaim and of course the Rambam, I think there is a wide array of opinion on this and many hold that it is in a category of 'not necessarily assur but still discouraged.' That sort of thing. There is also the opinion that it's allowed. But even by them, I'm sure that changes once a girl is married.
Not to promote Christianity but the apostle Paul, speaking as a Pharisaical Jew, stated that lesbianism is just as abominable as gay male sex, Romans 1:26.
With all due respect, I meant there is a wider array of opinion within the Jewish sources. Outside of that... you know what they say opinions are like.... everybody's got one....
-
Being gay is a mental sickness/disorder, which can be cured by Yoga. I hope the gay people take to it, and overcome their disorder, and become normal.
Really? Why yoga? How does it fix that?
-
I thought the Jewish consensus is that female gayness is just as detestable as male homosexuality because it is an Egyptian practice. Wouldn't the great Ravs have been familiar with what the Egyptian Nazis did?
-
I thought the Jewish consensus is that female gayness is just as detestable as male homosexuality because it is an Egyptian practice. Wouldn't the great Ravs have been familiar with what the Egyptian Nazis did?
Like I said, I think Chaim was quoting the Rambam, but I don't think every authority agreed on this. (that's not to say Rambam was wrong. Many times many of the great rabbis had different opinions about different verses). It may be that according to them, Rambam saw this practice as contempory evil in Egyptian society and assumed it went back to before when the Jews were in Egypt, AND that that verse refers to it. Or they could agree he is right that this egyptian perversion goes back to when we were in Egypt, but they say that the verse is not referring to that. That verse is very vague. Rambam attached it specifically to this. But halachically speaking, all I will say is, every woman should get a psak from her qualified orthodox rabbi. I don't think it's so clearcut.... But I'm not an expert on this..... I only remember vaguely reading about it.
-
I have a lot of compassion for the Hijras. Some of them were born with ambiguous genitalia, others had surgeries later because of their personal feelings. A lot of families feel like they have to give up a baby that's not clearly a boy or a girl. However they are not given any real compassion by society and are sort of forced into the lifestyle they hold. They're not really allowed to merge into mainstream society and because they are stereotyped, they live out that stereotype and act even MORE flamboyant than they otherwise would. I saw one video on zootube that showed Hijras "begging" by exposing themselves at market stalls until the vendor of the stall gave them money to move on to the next vendor. This is one way they have to make a living. Most also engage in prostitution too but I don't really feel this is necessarily their fault. Maybe they just need some help from society.
-
I have a lot of compassion for the Hijras. Some of them were born with ambiguous genitalia, others had surgeries later because of their personal feelings. A lot of families feel like they have to give up a baby that's not clearly a boy or a girl. However they are not given any real compassion by society and are sort of forced into the lifestyle they hold. They're not really allowed to merge into mainstream society and because they are stereotyped, they live out that stereotype and act even MORE flamboyant than they otherwise would. I saw one video on zootube that showed Hijras "begging" by exposing themselves at market stalls until the vendor of the stall gave them money to move on to the next vendor. This is one way they have to make a living. Most also engage in prostitution too but I don't really feel this is necessarily their fault. Maybe they just need some help from society.
Never thought of it that way, but good point.
-
בס''ד
Tron, you ask if it is possible to change a homosexual. According to our Torah, it is possible and there are many former homosexuals who are now happy and straight.
However, let me give you an example of a homosexual who will not change:
Let's say there is an effeminate 18 year old homosexual who lives in Israel and who spends his time monitoring JTF and HaYamin HaAmiti. He even joins JTF, pretending to be an American Jew who lives in the East Village in New York City. But he's actually an active Israeli queer. He would rather live in New York because he knows that most Israelis do not like effeminate queers like him. He knows that if he tried to kiss another queer in the street of any average Jewish neighborhood in Israel, most Israelis would be very angry to see such a disgusting sight. So he lives a life of self-hatred and shame and fear. Although he desperately tries to find happiness, he is frustrated and miserable. He convinces himself that the religious are ignorant, foolish and backward even though most of the secular Israelis also dislike him.
He could change if he really tried, but he doesn't want to. He could find happiness if he was willing to discover the Torah way of life, but he hates the Torah and hates Judaism.
Sound familiar, Tron?
-
בס''ד
Tron, you ask if it is possible to change a homosexual. According to our Torah, it is possible and there are many former homosexuals who are now happy and straight.
However, let me give you an example of a homosexual who will not change:
Let's say there is an effeminate 18 year old homosexual who lives in Israel and who spends his time monitoring JTF and HaYamin HaAmiti. He even joins JTF, pretending to be an American Jew who lives in the East Village in New York City. But he's actually an active Israeli queer. He would rather live in New York because he knows that most Israelis do not like effeminate queers like him. He knows that if he tried to kiss another queer in the street of any average Jewish neighborhood in Israel, most Israelis would be very angry to see such a disgusting sight. So he lives a life of self-hatred and shame and fear. Although he desperately tries to find happiness, he is frustrated and miserable. He convinces himself that the religious are ignorant, foolish and backward even though most of the secular Israelis also dislike him.
He could change if he really tried, but he doesn't want to. He could find happiness if he was willing to discover the Torah way of life, but he hates the Torah and hates Judaism.
Sound familiar, Tron?
Burned!
-
בס''ד
Tron, you ask if it is possible to change a homosexual. According to our Torah, it is possible and there are many former homosexuals who are now happy and straight.
However, let me give you an example of a homosexual who will not change:
Let's say there is an effeminate 18 year old homosexual who lives in Israel and who spends his time monitoring JTF and HaYamin HaAmiti. He even joins JTF, pretending to be an American Jew who lives in the East Village in New York City. But he's actually an active Israeli queer. He would rather live in New York because he knows that most Israelis do not like effeminate queers like him. He knows that if he tried to kiss another queer in the street of any average Jewish neighborhood in Israel, most Israelis would be very angry to see such a disgusting sight. So he lives a life of self-hatred and shame and fear. Although he desperately tries to find happiness, he is frustrated and miserable. He convinces himself that the religious are ignorant, foolish and backward even though most of the secular Israelis also dislike him.
He could change if he really tried, but he doesn't want to. He could find happiness if he was willing to discover the Torah way of life, but he hates the Torah and hates Judaism.
Sound familiar, Tron?
Pwned.
-
I don't understand... Why is he being dealt with like this? I have looked at his postings and nothing seems to indicate what is being said.
Is there something I am missing?
-
I am a little confused either! ???
-
I don't understand... Why is he being dealt with like this? I have looked at his postings and nothing seems to indicate what is being said.
Is there something I am missing?
We had a homosexual user in Haymin's forum who supposedly is 18 years old before military service. I suppose Chaim has a good reason to think Tron is the same user. That man claimed that he came to converse and try to reach understanding but not so long after he turned very vicious especially towards Chaim. It seems like his true intention was just to insight and create division in the forum.
-
I don't understand... Why is he being dealt with like this? I have looked at his postings and nothing seems to indicate what is being said.
Is there something I am missing?
We had a homosexual user in Haymin's forum who supposedly is 18 years old before military service. I suppose Chaim has a good reason to think Tron is the same user. That man claimed that he came to converse and try to reach understanding but not so long after he turned very vicious especially towards Chaim. It seems like his true intention was just to insight and create division in the forum.
Zelhar, this is not לא משנה or ראש פתוח. This is a different homosexual who joined our Hebrew forum earlier.
He kept spamming our forum with pictures of the homosexual parade. So I had to ban him. If he had not spammed our forum with the pictures, I would have allowed him to argue with us. But like the other homosexuals, he couldn't control himself. He also wrote that 96% of the homosexuals and lesbians serve in the Israeli army. That's absurd. He just made up ridiculous "statistics". And as you recall, Zelhar, these people only want to speak about homosexuality. They began to take over most of the discussions and would focus only on this one issue. Frankly, we have other issues that we also want to speak about.
On the English forum, he decided to speak about a number of issues so as not to arouse suspicion. I will not ban him as long as he behaves himself and doesn't spam us with homosexual parade pictures and with links to evil sites. If he just argues honestly and acts like a civilized human being, I will not ban him.
-
My orthodox friend told me about how girl on girl was not written against exactly. Am I allowed to say thats hot?
Girl on girl is disgusting. If you truly think it's hot you have clearly been brainwashed by our culture.
True, it is all sick... When sex is used like this it makes Hashem disgusted at mankind. While Hashem wanted sexual relations to be pleasurable, it was so that we would not become extinct. But the pleasure of sex is being used for simple pleasure, and this is the abomination.
OK, now that Tron has been exposed, ahem, 'outted', I'd like to ask a question.
From Muman's quote above, it seems that we shouldn't have sex for simple pleasure. Rather, the act of having sex seems to be one that should be undertaken mainly for the purpose of procreation.
Now, I've got to tell you, this seems pretty strange to me. Does this mean a man and wife should refrain from having sex unless they're trying to have children ?
I'm of the opinion that sex is healthy and important for a good, lasting, loving relationship between a man and woman - even when they're not trying to build a family or have children.
In the framework of marriage I see absolutely nothing wrong with having sex for pleasure. What better way to express love for each other than to provide each other with sexual pleasure ?
Also this whole idea about not using a condom because it 'wastes' male seed seems crazy to me. Condoms are not OK, but birth control pills are ? Sorry, I just can't accept this stuff. I think if a married couple wants to have sex and not have children as a result, the use of condoms is appropriate. What if the woman doesn't want to take birth control pills because of potential health risks ? Should the couple abstain from having sex rather than use condoms ? Should they only have sex for the purpose of having kids ?
Maybe I'm perverted but I think having a healthy, enjoyable sex life is important to a couple, even if they're not trying to have children.
-
My orthodox friend told me about how girl on girl was not written against exactly. Am I allowed to say thats hot?
Girl on girl is disgusting. If you truly think it's hot you have clearly been brainwashed by our culture.
True, it is all sick... When sex is used like this it makes Hashem disgusted at mankind. While Hashem wanted sexual relations to be pleasurable, it was so that we would not become extinct. But the pleasure of sex is being used for simple pleasure, and this is the abomination.
OK, now that Tron has been exposed, ahem, 'outted', I'd like to ask a question.
From Muman's quote above, it seems that we shouldn't have sex for simple pleasure. Rather, the act of having sex seems to be one that should be undertaken mainly for the purpose of procreation.
Now, I've got to tell you, this seems pretty strange to me. Does this mean a man and wife should refrain from having sex unless they're trying to have children ?
I'm of the opinion that sex is healthy and important for a good, lasting, loving relationship between a man and woman - even when they're not trying to build a family or have children.
In the framework of marriage I see absolutely nothing wrong with having sex for pleasure. What better way to express love for each other than to provide each other with sexual pleasure ?
Also this whole idea about not using a condom because it 'wastes' male seed seems crazy to me. Condoms are not OK, but birth control pills are ? Sorry, I just can't accept this stuff. I think if a married couple wants to have sex and not have children as a result, the use of condoms is appropriate. What if the woman doesn't want to take birth control pills because of potential health risks ? Should the couple abstain from having sex rather than use condoms ? Should they only have sex for the purpose of having kids ?
Maybe I'm perverted but I think having a healthy, enjoyable sex life is important to a couple, even if they're not trying to have children.
In practice Judaism allows use of birth control and to my knowledge this may includes condoms. But the decision is particular and not general. A couple ask their Rabbi for a permission and explain him their reasoning. The Rabbi gives them the proper guidance and in most case, a "heter", a permission to use contraceptions. A heter is essentially a permission to violate a mizvah due to particular circumstances.
-
MDF, you don't have to worry.
According to Judaism, sex is not only for procreation. Jewish faith states that intimate relationship between husband and wife is very important.
Moreover, when a man marries a woman, he is obliged to provide her food, clothing and sex. This is written in every ketubah - Jewish marriage contract.
-
I remember tron from the Hebrew forum. I was convinced that this guy is someone else since his posts covered issues other than homosexuality. I guess I was wrong.
-
MDF, you don't have to worry.
According to Judaism, sex is not only for procreation. Jewish faith states that intimate relationship between husband and wife is very important.
Moreover, when a man marries a woman, he is obliged to provide her food, clothing and sex. This is written in every ketubah - Jewish marriage contract.
I would agree with this all (and actually, the Christian Bible also specifically states that both husband and wife are supposed to provide the other with sex), but I'm coming from a Christian perspective here and we don't (universally) believe that there is a requirement to procreate (some of us do, but not all).
-
My orthodox friend told me about how girl on girl was not written against exactly. Am I allowed to say thats hot?
Girl on girl is disgusting. If you truly think it's hot you have clearly been brainwashed by our culture.
True, it is all sick... When sex is used like this it makes Hashem disgusted at mankind. While Hashem wanted sexual relations to be pleasurable, it was so that we would not become extinct. But the pleasure of sex is being used for simple pleasure, and this is the abomination.
OK, now that Tron has been exposed, ahem, 'outted', I'd like to ask a question.
From Muman's quote above, it seems that we shouldn't have sex for simple pleasure. Rather, the act of having sex seems to be one that should be undertaken mainly for the purpose of procreation.
Now, I've got to tell you, this seems pretty strange to me. Does this mean a man and wife should refrain from having sex unless they're trying to have children ?
I'm of the opinion that sex is healthy and important for a good, lasting, loving relationship between a man and woman - even when they're not trying to build a family or have children.
In the framework of marriage I see absolutely nothing wrong with having sex for pleasure. What better way to express love for each other than to provide each other with sexual pleasure ?
Also this whole idea about not using a condom because it 'wastes' male seed seems crazy to me. Condoms are not OK, but birth control pills are ? Sorry, I just can't accept this stuff. I think if a married couple wants to have sex and not have children as a result, the use of condoms is appropriate. What if the woman doesn't want to take birth control pills because of potential health risks ? Should the couple abstain from having sex rather than use condoms ? Should they only have sex for the purpose of having kids ?
Maybe I'm perverted but I think having a healthy, enjoyable sex life is important to a couple, even if they're not trying to have children.
It's not as black and white as you make it out to be.
-
My orthodox friend told me about how girl on girl was not written against exactly. Am I allowed to say thats hot?
Girl on girl is disgusting. If you truly think it's hot you have clearly been brainwashed by our culture.
True, it is all sick... When sex is used like this it makes Hashem disgusted at mankind. While Hashem wanted sexual relations to be pleasurable, it was so that we would not become extinct. But the pleasure of sex is being used for simple pleasure, and this is the abomination.
OK, now that Tron has been exposed, ahem, 'outted', I'd like to ask a question.
From Muman's quote above, it seems that we shouldn't have sex for simple pleasure. Rather, the act of having sex seems to be one that should be undertaken mainly for the purpose of procreation.
I don't agree that Judaism requires there to not be pleasure in sexual relations between man and wife. If that is what muman meant, I disagree with him. I think he meant to say that it shouldn't be for the sake of selfish pleasure. It should be based on love and wanting to have a shared experience with one's spouse. A give and take, not just take. If that's what he meant, I agree with him. That is the ideal, but even if one doesn't reach it always, (or even when you do reach it) it doesn't mean there can't or won't be any pleasure felt and enjoyment in relations.
Maybe I'm perverted but I think having a healthy, enjoyable sex life is important to a couple, even if they're not trying to have children.
I agree 100%, I don't know of anything in judaism that says otherwise. The "sex only for sake of procreation" was a catholic thing, but even catholics enjoy sex. Because they're human.
-
My orthodox friend told me about how girl on girl was not written against exactly. Am I allowed to say thats hot?
Girl on girl is disgusting. If you truly think it's hot you have clearly been brainwashed by our culture.
True, it is all sick... When sex is used like this it makes Hashem disgusted at mankind. While Hashem wanted sexual relations to be pleasurable, it was so that we would not become extinct. But the pleasure of sex is being used for simple pleasure, and this is the abomination.
OK, now that Tron has been exposed, ahem, 'outted', I'd like to ask a question.
From Muman's quote above, it seems that we shouldn't have sex for simple pleasure. Rather, the act of having sex seems to be one that should be undertaken mainly for the purpose of procreation.
I don't agree that Judaism requires there to not be pleasure in sexual relations between man and wife. If that is what muman meant, I disagree with him. I think he meant to say that it shouldn't be for the sake of selfish pleasure. It should be based on love and wanting to have a shared experience with one's spouse. A give and take, not just take. If that's what he meant, I agree with him. That is the ideal, but even if one doesn't reach it always, (or even when you do reach it) it doesn't mean there can't or won't be any pleasure felt and enjoyment in relations.
Maybe I'm perverted but I think having a healthy, enjoyable sex life is important to a couple, even if they're not trying to have children.
I agree 100%, I don't know of anything in judaism that says otherwise. The "sex only for sake of procreation" was a catholic thing, but even catholics enjoy sex. Because they're human.
KWRBT,
You are correct that I intended to say that sex for the sake of selfish pleasure was against the Jewish belief. Sex is a beautiful thing and Hashem made it pleasurable for a reason. To deny this pleasure is just insane but it should be conducted within the framework of Kiddushin {Holy Marriage}.
When the act becomes an act of using the other person it loses its holiness and becomes an act of desecration...