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Save Western Civilization => Save Serbia => Topic started by: Serbian_Radical_Party on November 08, 2009, 02:59:08 AM
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REPUBLIC OF SERBIAN KRAJINA GOVERNMENT IN EXILE
11.080 Земун, Магистратски трг бр. 3
Тел. 3077-028, факс: 3077-247, [email protected]
Number: 1112/09 – 02. 10. 2009.
Muslim Serbs of Turkey against the assimilation of Catholic and Muslim Serbs in new nations, [the Croatian and Bosniak].
The president of the Serbian-Turkish friendship association ‘’Inat’’, sir Dragoslav Milosavljevic, surprised the media by stating that 9 million Islamic Serbs currently live in Turkey. This statement can easily be verified upon visiting many of the local stores and markets in Turkey where many of the owners can be heard speaking in Serbian. "We are not dealing with Turks who learned Serbian language, we are dealing with Serbs who still speak their native language" – says the Serbian-Turkish friendship association ‘’Inat’’.
When the genocide against the Serbs and the disintegration of Yugoslavia occurred in the former Yugoslav federal units of Slovenia, Croatia and Bosnia and Herzegovina, as well as during NATO’s terror campaign against Serbian territories (1994, 1995 and 1999), the Islamic Serbs of Turkey took the side of their relatives from the Balkans. Their forefathers arrived from Bosnia and Herzegovina to Turkey in 1878 after the Austro-Hungarian empire began their occupation of Bosnia and Herzegovina. But they also arrived from other former Yugoslav areas after the Balkan wars and World wars. Islamic Serbs from Turkey are well aware of the fact that the Vatican and the western-European countries did everything to divide Serbs by religion and to assimilate some Serbs into the new nations.
The fact that Serb Catholics are now Croatians and Serbian Muslims Bosniaks attests to this assimilation of Serbs. The representatives of the so called Bosniak nation [form Sarajevo and Novi Pazar] responded to the statements made by the Muslim Serbs from Turkey by reiterating to them that the Serbs of Turkey are actually ethnically Bosniaks. The Serbs from Turkey rejected this claim and responded by saying that they are of Serbian heritage.
Government RS Krajina
Ratko Licina, minister
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Are there really 9 million of Serbs in Turkey? Is it officially confirmed? Do they have an organization of their own?
Why didn't they assimilate among the Turks?
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Are there really 9 million of Serbs in Turkey? Is it officially confirmed? Do they have an organization of their own?
Its of course confirmed. This has been known since 1918.
http://www.srpskadijaspora.info/vest.asp?id=11585
Do they have an organization of their own?
It is writting in the above text.. Please read it in the text.
Why didn't they assimilate among the Turks?
Why did not the luzicki Serbs [who still live in Germany]
assimilate among Germans? The same counts for the Serbs in Turkey.
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Are there really 9 million of Serbs in Turkey? Is it officially confirmed? Do they have an organization of their own?
Its of course confirmed. This has been known since 1918.
http://www.srpskadijaspora.info/vest.asp?id=11585
I didn't see where this article says about it. Still this is a very interesting article that also says Serbian was one of four official languages of the Ottoman Empire and there were many Serbian high-ranking political and military officials.
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Do they have an organization of their own?
It is writting in the above text.. Please read it in the text.
Do you mean Inat? Inat is the Association of Serbian-Turkish friendship based in Belgrade. It is not the organization of Turkish Serbs.
http://www.inat.org.rs/Engleski/Index_s.html
http://www.inat.org.rs/Engleski/Kontakt.html
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I didn't see where this article says about it. Still this is a very interesting article that also says Serbian was one of four official languages of the Ottoman Empire and there were many Serbian high-ranking political and military officials.
I will ask the author of the text about the sources.
It seems that you know to read Serbian very well :)
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Why did not the luzicki Serbs [who still live in Germany]
assimilate among Germans? The same counts for the Serbs in Turkey.
I think the difference is that while Luzice Serbs have always lived in their own land (even though it is inside Germany for many centuries), Muslim Serbs emigrated to Turkey because they viewed it as a better place than Serbia proper, besides Turkey offered better conditions to practice their Muslim religion.
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I think the difference is that while Luzice Serbs have always lived in their own land (even though it is inside Germany for many centuries),
Many Germans of Eastern-Germany are germanized Serbs.
1000 years ago the population of Luzicki Serbs was much higher as it is today.
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It seems that you know to read Serbian very well :)
Thank you. It is not my merit. It is because Russian was highly influenced with South Slavic lexics and grammar in medieval times. In some aspects, Russian is more similar to Bulgarian and Serbian than to Ukrainian and Belarussian.
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SRP, what do you think about one of the comments to the article by Dejan:
Kakva je razlika izmedju Srba u Srbiji i Srba u Turskoj.DRASTICNA.Srbi koji zive u Turskoj imaju turska imena i prezimena i vise ne govore Srpski.Oni su identicni sa Turcima. U proslosti su se borili za ropstvo Srbije pod Turskom vlascu,a ne za oslobadjanje od Turske vlasti.
What is the difference between Serbs in Serbia and Serbs in Turkey? Drastic one. Serbs who live in Turkey have Turkish first and last names and don't speak Serbian anymore. They are identical to Turks. In past, they struggled for Serbian slavery to Turks, not for liberation from Turkish rule.
;D
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Dejan is looking at this all from an other (hostile) perspective.
That kind of perspective is not understadable in this case. This because the article is stating that we are dealing with Serbs who emigrated to Turkey; that happend because of certain factors. Their emigration to Turkey is explained and understandable.
Of course many Serbs who were converted into Muslims and Catholics became extremely hostile towards their original relatives, Orthodox Serbs.
Those ex-Serbs have their own names and identity. This does not count for all Serbs of the Muslim religion, what is clearly confirmed by the article.
The Muslim Serbs who became loyal to Turks and fought for Turkish interest against Serbia, integrated [assimilated] a long time ago into other nations, Croatian and Bosniak. The Muslim Serbs who have been aware of their Serbian heritage, still identify them selves with Serbs..
So I reject Dejan's statement that all Muslim Serbs are to be compared with those Muslim Serbs who accepted a new nationality. Muslim Serbs of Turkey openly declared that they are Serbs and not Bosniaks! We must respect that!
We must be strictly aware of the fact that there are also Serbian Muslims who did not want to assimilate into new nations.
Dejan is not right when he claims that Serbs in Turkey are not speaking Serbian.
Somebody who is informed about facts, facts claim that Serbs of Turkey speak Serbian, will reject Dejan's claim.
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There is no serbs in Turkey at all,never existed.
This is lie.
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Mehmetce :)
What about those people who still speak Serbian in Turkey and still maintain Serbian tradition in a certain degree?
What about the Serbian-Turkish organization of Enat, who maintains friendly ties between Serbs and Turks?
What about the Muslim Serbs who emigrated to Turkey during the collapse of the Ottomanic Empire and the occupation Austro-Hungary?
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"Serbs in Turkey", if there really are any, are NOT our brothers. I don't care if their blood is pure and their genes perfect, they are MUSLIMS.
Their ancestors left Bosnia in 1878 and Serbia in 1912, because they considered Turkey to be their country. As the matter of fact, we expelled a lot of them. They can't be our brothers, they sold their faith for a piece of bread, they sided with the occupier, they helped the Turks to keep is in chains for 400 years. If there still is some sense of serbian nationality in them, it is a serbian muslim nationality. They would like Serbia to become a muslim country. Now, if you are not really religious, that would be ok with you. But, if you really believe in God, you would do anything to not let that happen. This means we must send the remaining muslims out of Serbia and Bosnia, or they must convert, like Kusturica.
Now, go read some epic serbian poetry, and learn who is your brother, and who isn't.
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Brother,
They were forced to accept Islam under extreme circumstances.
Not all of them accepted voluntarily Islam. Some of them did that in order to survive, others did it in order to gain career. So you can not generalize them like that..
Its better that they are aware of their Serbian heritage.
If you condemn them like that, than they may assimilate in Bosniaks, for example.
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I don't care where they assimilate. We don't accept muslims.
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It must be a great tragedy of Serbian people that so many Serbs were forced to abandon their nationality and/or religion.
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Well ok,as far as I know there is no Serbs because I don't see them.
There are some Albanians,Bosnaks,Macedonians,Bulgarians,Greeks and all the others.
You may describe muslim serbs (bosnaks) as serbs but I don't.If they are not chrsitian,they are not serbs.
But no Serbs,This is maybe becuase of the war and violent acts which took place in 1990s and Turkish media showed the Serbs as evil.
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It must be a great tragedy of Serbian people that so many Serbs were forced to abandon their nationality and/or religion.
It's similar to Jewish fate, I think. How many of them are now muslim Arabs, or Catholics?
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I don't care where they assimilate. We don't accept muslims.
Come on Vojoo.
Please brother.
If for example Serbs who emigrated to America, after 1945, became protestants or atheists. They may lost their Serbian religion, but genetically they are Serbs, our own flesh and blood. So if we tolerate Serbian atheists of America and Serbian Catholics of Germany, why can not we also tolerate Serbian Muslims, who live in Turkey and are aware of their Serbian roots?
Serbian people who assimilated into Croats and Roman-Catholics have placed Orthodox Serbs in extermination camps during WW2. But still we do not condemn all Catholics. We do not do that. Why hating Muslim Serbs of Turkey who were victims of colonial powers, which converted them, and who are aware of their Serbian heritage?
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Well ok,as far as I know there is no Serbs because I don't see them.
There are some Albanians,Bosnaks,Macedonians,Bulgarians,Greeks and all the others.
You may describe muslim serbs (bosnaks) as serbs but I don't.If they are not chrsitian,they are not serbs.
But no Serbs,This is maybe becuase of the war and violent acts which took place in 1990s and Turkish media showed the Serbs as evil.
Exactly! You're a Turk, right?
Those Turks of serbian origin will never say they are of serbian origin. They will always say they are Bosnians, Bosniaks etc.
It's because we feel great hostility towards them, and they to us. We fought bitterly between each other for hundreds of years, unlike Greeks, Bulgarians and other Balkan nations.
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It must be a great tragedy of Serbian people that so many Serbs were forced to abandon their nationality and/or religion.
It's similar to Jewish fate, I think. How many of them are now muslim Arabs, or Catholics?
Yes, Jews have lost millions of people because of forced or voluntary assimilation. There we many such Jews in Ancient Assyria (only 2 tribes remained while 10 were taken captive and disappeared), Roman Empire, in Spain, later in Eastern Europe and Russia and now in US.
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Well OK,as far as I know there is no Serbs because I don't see them.
There are some Albanians,Bosnaks,Macedonians,Bulgarians,Greeks and all the others.
You may describe Muslim Serbs (bosnaks) as Serbs but I don't.If they are not chrsitian,they are not Serbs.
But no Serbs,This is maybe because of the war and violent acts which took place in 1990s and Turkish media showed the Serbs as evil.
So you are ignoring the existence of the Serbian-Turkish friendship organization [Enat], which is also active on Turkish soil? You are not informed enough. You can go to Istanbul and encouter these Muslim Serbs.
Serbs are originally Christians, but on Serbian occupied territories colonial powers forced local Serbs to accept the religion of the occupying forces.
Do you really think that during the 500-year long Turkish occupation, Turkish authorities were not able to convert Serbs into Muslims? Of course they were able to conduct that. Where are those Muslim Serbs today? Most of them assimilated into new nations. They call them selves Bosniaks today. But they still speak Serbian. This confirms the assimilation of some Serbs.
On the other side, Catholic Empires ruled 1000 years long with Serbian territories and converted many Serbs into Catholics, who were later convinced to assimilate into Croatians.
So you have besides Orthodox Serbs, also Muslim and Catholic Serbs.
Muslim and Catholic Serbs from the Balkans were assimilated into new nations [Croatian and Bosniak]. Muslim Serbs from Turkey, condemn that and their representatives state that that is an immoral action.
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If for example Serbs who emigrated to America, after 1945, became protestants or atheists.
I don't need to cut them off, they cut themselves off, and won't be returning here.
So if we tolerate Serbian atheists
They are bad Serbs, but still Serbs.
Serbian Catholics of Germany
Never heard of such a case.
why can not we also tolerate Serbian Muslims, who live in Turkey and are aware of their Serbian roots?
They are not bad Serbs, they are good Turks.
Serbian people who assimilated into Croats and Roman-Catholics have placed Orthodox Serbs in extermination camps during WW2. But still we do not condemn all Catholics. We do not do that.
My opinion on them is the same, if not worse.
Why hating Muslim Serbs of Turkey who were victims of colonial powers, who converted them, and who are aware of their Serbian heritage?
Don't make me laugh. They willingly accepted Islam, and to this day they didn't convert back.
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Don't make me laugh. They willingly accepted Islam, and to this day they didn't convert back.
If we hate them than they will not return to their original roots.
We who remained Orthodox Serbs must be an example. Problem is that current Orthodox Serbs are not behaving like real Orthodox Christians and that's why converted Serbs can not take example from us.
Serbian Catholics of Germany
Never heard of such a case.
They are called luziciki Serbs and were Catholized during the establishment of the Vatican in 1054.
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Don't make me laugh. They willingly accepted Islam, and to this day they didn't convert back.
If we hate them than they will not return to their original roots.
We who remained Orthodox Serbs must be an example. Problem is that current Orthodox Serbs are not behaving like real Orthodox Christians and that's why converted Serbs can not take example from us.
Serbian Catholics of Germany
Never heard of such a case.
They are called luziciki Serbs and were Catholized during the establishment of the Vatican in 1054.
Look, I've already told you. I'm willing to accept brothers, if they are also willing to change. I simply don't trust "Serbs" who bow before the Pope, or love Turkey and Saudi Arabia.
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They are bad Serbs, but still Serbs.
If Serbian atheists and Catholic Serbs are bad.
Than Serbs who became members of the Jewish religion are also bad?
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Look, I've already told you. I'm willing to accept brothers, if they are also willing to change. I simply don't trust "Serbs" who bow before the Pope, or love Turkey and Saudi Arabia.
I agree but those Serbs do not identify them selves with Serbs.
This topic is about unorthodox Serbs who are aware of their Serbian heritage.
That's better than to assimilate in hostile nations, who are used like cannonmeat by US to destroy us.
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They are bad Serbs, but still Serbs.
If Serbian atheists and Catholic Serbs are bad.
Than Serbs who became members of the Jewish religion are also bad?
That's a complicated theological question and I don't know if I can discuss it with you. If a Serb converts to orthodox Judaism he becomes a Jew, and will regard himself as a Jew. On the other hand, one who believes that Jesus was a Messiah, also accepts Jewish religion from our point of view.
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They are bad Serbs, but still Serbs.
If Serbian atheists and Catholic Serbs are bad.
Than Serbs who became members of the Jewish religion are also bad?
Serbs who became "members of Jewish religion" are not Serbs anymore. They are Jews, even if they speak Serbian and still support Serbia. The one who wants to join Jewish people must accept Jewish worldview and Jewish cause. Otherwise it is impossible to become Jew.
But the Jews don't seek converts. There is no concept of mission in Judaism. Jews respect the freedom of will and don't impose their religion on the others.
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Brother Spectator,
You are now mentioning that from the Jewish perspective.
You understand the Serbs who become Jews are in our eyes genetically Serbs.
The difference between them is that they are spiritually not Serbs, only genetically.
I think that we must not all hate all Serbs who left Orthodoxy.
Many of them were forced to do that. Some of them did it voluntarily but many were forced by the knife to abandon Orthodoxy.
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Look, I've already told you. I'm willing to accept brothers, if they are also willing to change. I simply don't trust "Serbs" who bow before the Pope, or love Turkey and Saudi Arabia.
I agree but those Serbs do not identify them selves with Serbs.
This topic is about unorthodox Serbs who are aware of their Serbian heritage.
That's better than to assimilate in hostile nations, who are used like cannonmeat by US to destroy us.
I don't see your point here. If they want to be Serbs, they MUST reject Islam and Catholicism. The Pope cannot be their master anymore.
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Well ok,as far as I know there is no Serbs because I don't see them.
There are some Albanians,Bosnaks,Macedonians,Bulgarians,Greeks and all the others.
You may describe muslim serbs (bosnaks) as serbs but I don't.If they are not chrsitian,they are not serbs.
But no Serbs,This is maybe becuase of the war and violent acts which took place in 1990s and Turkish media showed the Serbs as evil.
Exactly! You're a Turk, right?
Those Turks of serbian origin will never say they are of serbian origin. They will always say they are Bosnians, Bosniaks etc.
It's because we feel great hostility towards them, and they to us. We fought bitterly between each other for hundreds of years, unlike Greeks, Bulgarians and other Balkan nations.
Well OK,as far as I know there is no Serbs because I don't see them.
There are some Albanians,Bosnaks,Macedonians,Bulgarians,Greeks and all the others.
You may describe Muslim Serbs (bosnaks) as Serbs but I don't.If they are not chrsitian,they are not Serbs.
But no Serbs,This is maybe because of the war and violent acts which took place in 1990s and Turkish media showed the Serbs as evil.
So you are ignoring the existence of the Serbian-Turkish friendship organization [Enat], which is also active on Turkish soil? You are not informed enough. You can go to Istanbul and encouter these Muslim Serbs.
Serbs are originally Christians, but on Serbian occupied territories colonial powers forced local Serbs to accept the religion of the occupying forces.
Do you really think that during the 500-year long Turkish occupation, Turkish authorities were not able to convert Serbs into Muslims? Of course they were able to conduct that. Where are those Muslim Serbs today? Most of them assimilated into new nations. They call them selves Bosniaks today. But they still speak Serbian. This confirms the assimilation of some Serbs.
On the other side, Catholic Empires ruled 1000 years long with Serbian territories and converted many Serbs into Catholics, who were later convinced to assimilate into Croatians.
So you have besides Orthodox Serbs, also Muslim and Catholic Serbs.
Muslim and Catholic Serbs from the Balkans were assimilated into new nations [Croatian and Bosniak]. Muslim Serbs from Turkey, condemn that and their representatives state that that is an immoral action.
Serbian Radical Party I am not trying to ignore anything,just trying to say what I see.
I already live in Istanbul since my birth,I had friends of all balkanic nations in Istanbul including Jewish friends also.But I never saw any Serbs who says he is serb.
This is maybe becuase of the war in 1990s as I told you.So many turks don't like serbs so maybe they try to hide it.
So I am agree with voo-yo on this.
While I respect to peace efforts of Enat,btw I heard it for the first time form you,I would definitely say that this is immposible.I know how serbs are feeling so much angry about Turkish occupation of 500 years,I am not going to discuss wheter or not this is legitimate.But I wanna say this is the situation.You've mass murdered your own people only because they are muslims.You've took revenge of your 500 years Turkish occupation from your own muslims.These people you slayed were etnically,culturally,historically,and even the langually were same with you.By the way don't get it wrong,I am not blaming you or anybody.Becuase of all these incidents I don't think turkey and serbia would have a certain and parmanent peace.
If a war breaks out which Turkey involves,I would not give a [censored] and run away to Hawaii,because I like to live life more than my nationality or country.
These terms are not describing anything to me.
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Look, I've already told you. I'm willing to accept brothers, if they are also willing to change. I simply don't trust "Serbs" who bow before the Pope, or love Turkey and Saudi Arabia.
I agree but those Serbs do not identify them selves with Serbs.
This topic is about unorthodox Serbs who are aware of their Serbian heritage.
That's better than to assimilate in hostile nations, who are used like cannonmeat by US to destroy us.
I don't see your point here. If they want to be Serbs, they MUST reject Islam and Catholicism. The Pope cannot be their master anymore.
They can to return to their Serbian roots, if they get inspiration and an example. Orthodox Serbs must be the example. Currently the majority of Orthodox Serbs is weak and is not the example to anybody. Croatians [catholic Serbs] go to church every sonday and respect their religion. Majority of Orthodox is not interested in Orthodoxy. Why would Croats want to become something like that?
It is also the responsibility of Orthodox Serbs! Orthodox Serbs have more responsibility than assimilated Serbs. This because the Orthodox Serbs represent Orthodoxy. Problem is Orthodox Serbs are not being a good example currently.
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Look, I've already told you. I'm willing to accept brothers, if they are also willing to change. I simply don't trust "Serbs" who bow before the Pope, or love Turkey and Saudi Arabia.
I agree but those Serbs do not identify them selves with Serbs.
This topic is about unorthodox Serbs who are aware of their Serbian heritage.
That's better than to assimilate in hostile nations, who are used like cannonmeat by US to destroy us.
I don't see your point here. If they want to be Serbs, they MUST reject Islam and Catholicism. The Pope cannot be their master anymore.
They can to return to their Serbian roots, if they get inspiration and an example. Orthodox Serbs must be the example. Currently the majority of Orthodox Serbs is weak and is not the example to anybody. Croatians [catholic Serbs] go to church every sonday and respect their religion. Majority of Orthodox is not interested in Orthodoxy. Why would Croats want to become something like that?
It is also the responsibility of Orthodox Serbs! Orthodox have more responsibility than assimilated Serbs. This because the Orthodox Serbs represent Orthodoxy. Problem is Orthodox are not being a good example currently.
I agree we are not good example. Serbs must be much, much better.
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.You've took revenge of your 500 years Turkish occupation from your own Muslims.These people you slayed were ethnically,culturally,historically,and even the langually were same with you.By the way don't get it wrong,I am not blaming you or anybody.Becuase of all these incidents I don't think turkey and serbia would have a certain and parmanent peace.
What? Slow down man..
First of all assimilated Catholic Serbs and Muslim Serbs organized together with German Nazis extermination camps where they exterminated 1 million Orthodox Serbs, oke!
The Serbs did not have concentration camps for Muslims or Catholics!
Serbs did not organized exterminations like Bosnian Muslims and Croatians did against Serbs in 1941, so please get your facts straight!
Serbs organized Yugoslavia where Catholics, Muslims and Orthodox Serbs lived in peace. Serbs wanted badly to integrate into the multi ethnic Yugoslavia.
Bosnian Muslims and Croatians did not want to integrate in Yugoslavia and aimed for Independence and did not want to live in one state with the Serbs...
Serbs are not problem.
They, the Croats and Bosnian Muslims, wanted the disintegration of Yugoslavia and ethnic clean states. They accepted the US offer of the disintegration of Yugoslavia.
Serbs rejected the disintergration of Yugoslavia and the Western-world punished them for that.
Do not blame the Serbs friend!
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Brother Spectator,
You are now mentioning that from the Jewish perspective.
You understand the Serbs who become Jews are in our eyes genetically Serbs.
The difference between them is that they are spiritually not Serbs, only genetically.
I think that we must not all hate all Serbs who left Orthodoxy.
Many of them were forced to do that. Some of them did it voluntarily but many were forced by the knife to abandon Orthodoxy.
I understand your point. But this is only a theoretical situation. I don't think there were many Serbs who converted to Judaism, personally I never heard about it.
As for the attitude to the Serbs who converted to the other religions, this is your internal Serbian issue. But it is one of the most interesting topics in this section for a long time.
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As for the attitude to the Serbs who converted to the other religions, this is your internal Serbian issue. But it is one of the most interesting topics in this section for a long time.
You will never hear this on the Western-media, which is flagrant anti-Serbian.
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.You've took revenge of your 500 years Turkish occupation from your own Muslims.These people you slayed were ethnically,culturally,historically,and even the langually were same with you.By the way don't get it wrong,I am not blaming you or anybody.Becuase of all these incidents I don't think turkey and serbia would have a certain and parmanent peace.
What? Slow down man..
First of all Catholic Serbs and Muslim Serbs organized together with German Nazis extermination camps where they exterminated 1 million Serbs, oke!
The Serbs did not have concentration camps for Muslims or Catholics!
Serbs did not organized exterminations like Bosnian Muslims and Croatians did against Serbs in 1941, so please get your facts straight!
Serbs organized Yugoslavia where Catholics, Muslims and Orthodox Serbs lived in peace. Serbs wanted badly to integrate into the multi ethnic Yugoslavia.
Bosnian Muslims and Croatians did not want to integrate in Yugoslavia and aimed for Independence and did not want to live in one state with the Serbs...
Serbs are not problem.
They, the Croats and Bosnian Muslims, wanted the disintegration of Yugoslavia and ethnic clean states. They accepted the US offer of the disintegration of Yugoslavia.
Serbs rejected the disintergration of Yugoslavia and the Western-world punished them for that.
Do not blame the Serbs friend!
Well of course I do know these incidents and also what did bosnians and others did to the serbs in the past and just after the bosnia war.
I am not blaming serbs for everything,see?I am just trying to expose the hate you feel each other,of course this is just a genelirzation not talking about you.Almost all sides did the most terrible things to each other.Therefore I don't see a parmenant peace in the future.
Your problem with croats is because they are catholic and you're othodox is that right?
By the way I know this is a an ironic question,but,why Serbs are the cause of each World War I and World War II ?Or if isn't why so many people claim that?
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By the way I know this is a an ironic question,but,why Serbs are the cause of each World War I and World War II ?Or if isn't why so many people claim that?
I know why people relate Serbs to WW1, but what they say is just an excuse, a casus belli. The war was between great powers to redivide the world. Serbs have nothing to do with that.
As for WW2, you definitely confuse Serbs with somebody else. There are no connection between Serbs and causing WW2.
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Well ok,as far as I know there is no Serbs because I don't see them.
There are some Albanians,Bosnaks,Macedonians,Bulgarians,Greeks and all the others.
You may describe muslim serbs (bosnaks) as serbs but I don't.If they are not chrsitian,they are not serbs.
But no Serbs,This is maybe becuase of the war and violent acts which took place in 1990s and Turkish media showed the Serbs as evil.
Exactly! You're a Turk, right?
Those Turks of serbian origin will never say they are of serbian origin. They will always say they are Bosnians, Bosniaks etc.
It's because we feel great hostility towards them, and they to us. We fought bitterly between each other for hundreds of years, unlike Greeks, Bulgarians and other Balkan nations.
Well OK,as far as I know there is no Serbs because I don't see them.
There are some Albanians,Bosnaks,Macedonians,Bulgarians,Greeks and all the others.
You may describe Muslim Serbs (bosnaks) as Serbs but I don't.If they are not chrsitian,they are not Serbs.
But no Serbs,This is maybe because of the war and violent acts which took place in 1990s and Turkish media showed the Serbs as evil.
So you are ignoring the existence of the Serbian-Turkish friendship organization [Enat], which is also active on Turkish soil? You are not informed enough. You can go to Istanbul and encouter these Muslim Serbs.
Serbs are originally Christians, but on Serbian occupied territories colonial powers forced local Serbs to accept the religion of the occupying forces.
Do you really think that during the 500-year long Turkish occupation, Turkish authorities were not able to convert Serbs into Muslims? Of course they were able to conduct that. Where are those Muslim Serbs today? Most of them assimilated into new nations. They call them selves Bosniaks today. But they still speak Serbian. This confirms the assimilation of some Serbs.
On the other side, Catholic Empires ruled 1000 years long with Serbian territories and converted many Serbs into Catholics, who were later convinced to assimilate into Croatians.
So you have besides Orthodox Serbs, also Muslim and Catholic Serbs.
Muslim and Catholic Serbs from the Balkans were assimilated into new nations [Croatian and Bosniak]. Muslim Serbs from Turkey, condemn that and their representatives state that that is an immoral action.
Serbian Radical Party I am not trying to ignore anything,just trying to say what I see.
I already live in Istanbul since my birth,I had friends of all balkanic nations in Istanbul including Jewish friends also.But I never saw any Serbs who says he is serb.
This is maybe becuase of the war in 1990s as I told you.So many turks don't like serbs so maybe they try to hide it.
So I am agree with voo-yo on this.
While I respect to peace efforts of Enat,btw I heard it for the first time form you,I would definitely say that this is immposible.I know how serbs are feeling so much angry about Turkish occupation of 500 years,I am not going to discuss wheter or not this is legitimate.But I wanna say this is the situation.You've mass murdered your own people only because they are muslims.You've took revenge of your 500 years Turkish occupation from your own muslims.These people you slayed were etnically,culturally,historically,and even the langually were same with you.By the way don't get it wrong,I am not blaming you or anybody.Becuase of all these incidents I don't think turkey and serbia would have a certain and parmanent peace.
If a war breaks out which Turkey involves,I would not give a deleted and run away to Hawaii,because I like to live life more than my nationality or country.
These terms are not describing anything to me.
First, let me ask you, if I can, why did you join JTF? Are you a fanatical secularist or something?
We see from your post a great example of Turkish viewpoint on our situation. And it shows, that you can't really understand it. The truth is, there are many Turks of serbian origin in Istanbul, for example, a lot of your basketball players have serbian ancestry, like Hedo Turkoglu and Mirsad Turkcan. But, their ancestors were calling themselves Turks from the point of conversion. There were not many "real" Turks in Serbia and Bosnia, we were ruled by our muslim "brothers". That's where the hate comes from. They are of serbian blood, language... but their god is different, and that difference was crucial. I can't explain it, that wasn't the situation with other nations in the Balkans, especially with Albanians. To them, religion was never important, they were converting for pragmatic reasons, and christians and muslims there are still being considered one people.
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If a war breaks out which Turkey involves,I would not give a deleted and run away to Hawaii,because I like to live life more than my nationality or country.
Hawaii looks nice but the people are not friendly N.Y., California or Pennsylvania would be a better place to move to if you wanted to move
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Well of course I do know these incidents and also what did bosnians and others did to the serbs in the past and just after the bosnia war.
I am not blaming serbs for everything,see?I am just trying to expose the hate you feel each other,of course this is just a genelirzation not talking about you.Almost all sides did the most terrible things to each other.Therefore I don't see a parmenant peace in the future.
Your problem with croats is because they are catholic and you're othodox is that right?
By the way I know this is a an ironic question,but,why Serbs are the cause of each World War I and World War II ?Or if isn't why so many people claim that?
My Turkish friend. Sometimes I react explosively. I get irritated when I see people using western-media lies against Serbs. Do not take it personally friend! I am glad that you want to hear our story as well.
First of all Orthodox Serbs did not tried to biological exterminate Croatians and Bosnian Muslims. Croatians and Bosnians Muslims were Nazis during 1941 and tried to biologically exterminate Orthodox Serbs living on the western side of the rivers of Drina and Dunau. Orthodox Serbs did not intent to exterminate anybody. Please examine WW2 and the real context of the last Balkan war.
So you can not say that Orthodox Serbs committed the same atrocities against anyone, as Croats and Bosnian Muslims did against Serbs.
By the way I know this is a an ironic question,but,why Serbs are the cause of each World War I and World War II ?Or if isn't why so many people claim that?
No !
WW1 was a trap.
The Austrian Emperor, Frans Ferdinand, represented the occupying forces of Bosnia and Herzegovina. He was killed by Serbs when he was visiting Sarajevo, because local population of Bosnia was oppressed by Austria and considered Austrians as occupying forces.
If today Bush would visit Bagdad, than Iraqi people will also kill him. Nobody likes occupying forces! So its not a surprise the Serbs killed the Emperor of an Empire that occupied Serbian territories and demonstrated force. The Austro-Hungarian authorities orchested the visiting of their emperor, Frans Ferdinand, on purpose, in order to get him killed by the Serbs. The murdering of him was used as an excuse to occupy Serbia and to amplify the Austrian military presence in Bosnia.
Austria wanted war with Serbia since Serbia liberated its self from the Turkish occupation. As soon as the Turks left the Balkans, Austrians wanted to occupy the Balkans.
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Brother Spectator,
You are now mentioning that from the Jewish perspective.
You understand the Serbs who become Jews are in our eyes genetically Serbs.
The difference between them is that they are spiritually not Serbs, only genetically.
I think that we must not all hate all Serbs who left Orthodoxy.
Many of them were forced to do that. Some of them did it voluntarily but many were forced by the knife to abandon Orthodoxy.
I understand your point. But this is only a theoretical situation. I don't think there were many Serbs who converted to Judaism, personally I never heard about it.
As for the attitude to the Serbs who converted to the other religions, this is your internal Serbian issue. But it is one of the most interesting topics in this section for a long time.
I believe Belgrade rabbi was born a Serb.
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Well ok,as far as I know there is no Serbs because I don't see them.
There are some Albanians,Bosnaks,Macedonians,Bulgarians,Greeks and all the others.
You may describe muslim serbs (bosnaks) as serbs but I don't.If they are not chrsitian,they are not serbs.
But no Serbs,This is maybe becuase of the war and violent acts which took place in 1990s and Turkish media showed the Serbs as evil.
Exactly! You're a Turk, right?
Those Turks of serbian origin will never say they are of serbian origin. They will always say they are Bosnians, Bosniaks etc.
It's because we feel great hostility towards them, and they to us. We fought bitterly between each other for hundreds of years, unlike Greeks, Bulgarians and other Balkan nations.
Well OK,as far as I know there is no Serbs because I don't see them.
There are some Albanians,Bosnaks,Macedonians,Bulgarians,Greeks and all the others.
You may describe Muslim Serbs (bosnaks) as Serbs but I don't.If they are not chrsitian,they are not Serbs.
But no Serbs,This is maybe because of the war and violent acts which took place in 1990s and Turkish media showed the Serbs as evil.
So you are ignoring the existence of the Serbian-Turkish friendship organization [Enat], which is also active on Turkish soil? You are not informed enough. You can go to Istanbul and encouter these Muslim Serbs.
Serbs are originally Christians, but on Serbian occupied territories colonial powers forced local Serbs to accept the religion of the occupying forces.
Do you really think that during the 500-year long Turkish occupation, Turkish authorities were not able to convert Serbs into Muslims? Of course they were able to conduct that. Where are those Muslim Serbs today? Most of them assimilated into new nations. They call them selves Bosniaks today. But they still speak Serbian. This confirms the assimilation of some Serbs.
On the other side, Catholic Empires ruled 1000 years long with Serbian territories and converted many Serbs into Catholics, who were later convinced to assimilate into Croatians.
So you have besides Orthodox Serbs, also Muslim and Catholic Serbs.
Muslim and Catholic Serbs from the Balkans were assimilated into new nations [Croatian and Bosniak]. Muslim Serbs from Turkey, condemn that and their representatives state that that is an immoral action.
Serbian Radical Party I am not trying to ignore anything,just trying to say what I see.
I already live in Istanbul since my birth,I had friends of all balkanic nations in Istanbul including Jewish friends also.But I never saw any Serbs who says he is serb.
This is maybe becuase of the war in 1990s as I told you.So many turks don't like serbs so maybe they try to hide it.
So I am agree with voo-yo on this.
While I respect to peace efforts of Enat,btw I heard it for the first time form you,I would definitely say that this is immposible.I know how serbs are feeling so much angry about Turkish occupation of 500 years,I am not going to discuss wheter or not this is legitimate.But I wanna say this is the situation.You've mass murdered your own people only because they are muslims.You've took revenge of your 500 years Turkish occupation from your own muslims.These people you slayed were etnically,culturally,historically,and even the langually were same with you.By the way don't get it wrong,I am not blaming you or anybody.Becuase of all these incidents I don't think turkey and serbia would have a certain and parmanent peace.
If a war breaks out which Turkey involves,I would not give a deleted and run away to Hawaii,because I like to live life more than my nationality or country.
These terms are not describing anything to me.
First, let me ask you, if I can, why did you join JTF? Are you a fanatical secularist or something?
We see from your post a great example of Turkish viewpoint on our situation. And it shows, that you can't really understand it. The truth is, there are many Turks of serbian origin in Istanbul, for example, a lot of your basketball players have serbian ancestry, like Hedo Turkoglu and Mirsad Turkcan. But, their ancestors were calling themselves Turks from the point of conversion. There were not many "real" Turks in Serbia and Bosnia, we were ruled by our muslim "brothers". That's where the hate comes from. They are of serbian blood, language... but their G-d is different, and that difference was crucial. I can't explain it, that wasn't the situation with other nations in the Balkans, especially with Albanians. To them, religion was never important, they were converting for pragmatic reasons, and christians and muslims there are still being considered one people.
Some journalists asked Hidayet Turkoglu wheter or not he is a Serb.He replied back and said he is relgiously and with his flesh and bone a Turk.He doesn't accept to be Serb.
Mirsad Turkcan did the same after a match between Serbia-Turkey.He said some of serbian players insulted him during the play and asked him why he plays for the turks while he is serbian,he said he was never serbian to the players.Well obviously it's unreasonable for him to say he is not serb while he could speak and understand the serbian with the players in the match.I dunno how many times should I tell it?
EVEN THERE ARE SOME SERBS IN TURKEY CURRENTLY THEY DON'T SAY THIS .IT IS PROBABLY THEY ARE ASHAMED OF THE WAR İN 1990S AND THE TURKISH MEDIA WHO SHOWED SERBS AS THE EVIL.
I don't have to explain why joined to JTF while It can easily be understood.
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Some journalists asked Hidayet Turkoglu wheter or not he is a Serb.He replied back and said he is relgiously and with his flesh and bone a Turk.He doesn't accept to be Serb.
Mirsad Turkcan did the same after a match between Serbia-Turkey.He said some of serbian players insulted him during the play and asked him why he plays for the turks while he is serbian,he said he was never serbian to the players.Well obviously it's unreasonable for him to say he is not serb while he could speak and understand the serbian with the players in the match.I dunno how many times should I tell it?
EVEN THERE ARE SOME SERBS IN TURKEY CURRENTLY THEY DON'T SAY THIS .IT IS PROBABLY THEY ARE ASHAMED OF THE WAR İN 1990S AND THE TURKISH MEDIA WHO SHOWED SERBS AS THE EVIL.
I don't have to explain why joined to JTF while It can easily be understood.
You summed it up well. Turkoglu and Turkcan are genetically Serbs, but not spiritually, and therefore they cannot be Serbs. That's something SRP refuses to accept.
They are not ashamed of their ancestry because of the wars in the '90s. They haven't been Serbs for the last 400 years.
And if you're not Turkish Jew, I don't understand why you would want to be here, sorry.
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Voojoo
Do not make me upset.
I am tolerant, but do not spread lies about me. Even you must have your limitations.
I already confirmed on this topic that Serbs who abandoned Orthodoxy are not spiritually Serbs, but only genetically.
I will repeat my quote...
Brother Spectator,
You are now mentioning that from the Jewish perspective.
You understand the Serbs who become Jews are in our eyes genetically Serbs.
The difference between them is that they are spiritually not Serbs, only genetically.
I think that we must not all hate all Serbs who left Orthodoxy.
Many of them were forced to do that. Some of them did it voluntarily but many were forced by the knife to abandon Orthodoxy.
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Voojoo
Do not make me angry.
I am tolerant, but do not spread lies about me. Even you must have your limitations.
I already confirmed on this topic that Serbs who abandoned Orthodoxy are not spiritually Serbs, but only genetically.
Spading lies against me, can make me extremely angry!
I will repeat my quote...
Brother Spectator,
You are now mentioning that from the Jewish perspective.
You understand the Serbs who become Jews are in our eyes genetically Serbs.
The difference between them is that they are spiritually not Serbs, only genetically.
I think that we must not all hate all Serbs who left Orthodoxy.
Many of them were forced to do that. Some of them did it voluntarily but many were forced by the knife to abandon Orthodoxy.
And I said
and therefore they cannot be Serbs. That's something SRP refuses to accept.
You said they can be Serbs regardless of their religion. Spirit is more important than genes.
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And there fore they can not be Serbs?
This way of thinking contributed to the assimilation of Catholic and Muslim Serbs, who became weapons of the Turkish Empire and the Austro-Hungarian Empires - after they finally abandoned the Serbian religion and nation. The Orthodox Serbs did not do everything in order to stop the assimilation of other Serbs.
We did not have a good strategy.
I completely understand that it is not good to accept the religion of your conquerors. I condemn that, but we can at least recognize the fact that these people are genetically Serbs. You are right that Serbs belong in the Orthodox church and that Orthodoxy is the only place for Serbs. I agree, but it is not in the interest of the Serbian nation to assimilate some Serbs in new nations.
Of course Serbs should be genetically and spiritually Serbian, but it is also the responsibility of Orthodox Serbs to prevent the alienation of Catholic and Muslim Serbs from their Orthodox relatives.
If we managed to keep Muslim and Catholic Serbs in the Serbian name, than many of them would be convinced that other powers have forced them to stop being Serbs.
I agree that Orthodoxy is the place where Serbs belong, but I do not agree that Catholic and Muslim Serbs must be banned from the Serbian name.
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Make love not war... :-*
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why Serbs are the cause of each World War I and World War II ?Or if isn't why so many people claim that?
Who says the Serbs caused WW2? I think you might have confused Serbs with Germans.
Also, if you've ever taken a history course or actually bothered to do some actual research, you'd realize that the assissination of the Duke triggered the series of events which led up to the start of WWI but there are many reasons which explain why the war broke out and why it turned into a large scale war. If you say that the Serbs or Gavrilo Princip are the reasons for WWI, most historians will tell you you're wrong.
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And there fore they can not be Serbs?
This way of thinking contributed to the assimilation of Catholic and Muslim Serbs, who became weapons of the Turkish Empire and the Austro-Hungarian Empires - after they finally abandoned the Serbian religion and nation. The Orthodox Serbs did not do everything in order to stop the assimilation of other Serbs.
We did not have a good strategy.
I completely understand that it is not good to accept the religion of your conquerors. I condemn that, but we can at least recognize the fact that these people are genetically Serbs. You are right that Serbs belong in the Orthodox church and that Orthodoxy is the only place for Serbs. I agree, but it is not in the interest of the Serbian nation to assimilate some Serbs in new nations.
Of course Serbs should be genetically and spiritually Serbian, but it is also the responsibility of Orthodox Serbs to prevent the alienation of Catholic and Muslim Serbs from their Orthodox relatives.
If we managed to keep Muslim and Catholic Serbs in the Serbian name, than many of them would be convinced that other powers have forced them to stop being Serbs.
I agree that Orthodoxy is the place where Serbs belong, but I do not agree that Catholic and Muslim Serbs must be banned from the Serbian name.
You make it sound like we are to blame for them not being Serbs anymore. That's twisting of our entire history upside down. They deserted their own people, and they must ask to return. Like Kusturica. It took a great deal of courage for him to become a Serb again, and it has to be respected.
I've said it before, stop reading Seselj's books, and start reading beautiful epic serbian poetry.
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The truth is, there are many Turks of serbian origin in Istanbul, for example, a lot of your basketball players have serbian ancestry, like Hedo Turkoglu and Mirsad Turkcan. But, their ancestors were calling themselves Turks from the point of conversion.
I thought Turkoglu was a pure Turk who grew up in Serbia.
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You make it sound like we are to blame for them not being Serbs anymore. That's twisting of our entire history upside down. They deserted their own people, and they must ask to return. Like Kusturica. It took a great deal of courage for him to become a Serb again, and it has to be respected.
I've said it before, stop reading Seselj's books, and start reading beautiful epic serbian poetry.
What? Do not twist my words to your advantage.
Secondly you are not going to dictate what I must read or not.
Being Orthodox does not mean that you are automatically saved.
As long as you live, you can fall from the truth. It is for you easy to judge people!
According to you Orthodox Serbs have no responsibility? Being arrogant and judging people like that, is not Orthodox behavior! Not at all. Please look first at your self.
Look at Fikret Abdic he is Muslim, but he was loyal to Serbs. Whole Western-Bosnia was pro-Serbian. Open your eyes and do not judge other people like that!
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SRP, what is the official attitude of Seselj's party to the fact that Muslim and Catholic Serbs have a religion other than Serbian Orthodox? Do Radicals want to return them to the Orthodoxy or they agree to view Serbian people as multi-religional?
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SRP, what is the official attitude of Seselj's party to the fact that Muslim and Catholic Serbs have a religion other than Serbian Orthodox? Do Radicals want to return them to the Orthodoxy or they agree to view Serbian people as multi-religional?
Seselj says that we must not allow the abandoning of Serbian Muslims, Serbian Catholics, Serbian Atheists and other Serbs from Serbian name. If they leave the Serbian name, than foreign powers will assimilate them in new nations. These new nations [who live among us] we be weapons of foreign powers who attempt to invade our territories.
Seselj claims that we must convince them others forced them to abandon the Serbian name and religion.
This is to me the most responsible attitude.
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You make it sound like we are to blame for them not being Serbs anymore. That's twisting of our entire history upside down. They deserted their own people, and they must ask to return. Like Kusturica. It took a great deal of courage for him to become a Serb again, and it has to be respected.
I've said it before, stop reading Seselj's books, and start reading beautiful epic serbian poetry.
What? Do not twist my words to your advantage.
Secondly you are not going to dictate what I must read or not.
Being Orthodox does not mean that you are automatically saved.
As long as you live, you can fall from the truth. It is for you easy to judge people!
According to you Orthodox Serbs have no responsibility? Being arrogant and judging people like that, is not Orthodox behavior! Not at all. Please look first at your self.
Look at Fikret Abdic he is Muslim, but he was loyal to Serbs. Whole Western-Bosnia was pro-Serbian. Open your eyes and do not judge other people like that!
Look brother, this is simply not a forum for you. We don't like muslims here and they are not our brothers.
Ферат Зачир, кавазбаша
Јок, сердаре, не угађеш путом!
Вјера турска поднијет не може
да се хаба докле глава скочи.
Иако је земља поузана,
двије вјере могу се сложити,
ка у сахан што се чорбе слажу.
Ми живимо као досад братски,
па љубови више не требује.
Кнез Јанко
Бисмо, Турци, али се не може!
Смијешна је ова наша љубав.
Грдно нам се очи сусретају,
не могу се братски погледати,
но крвнички и некако дивље:
очи зборе што им вели срце.
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Look brother, this is simply not a forum for you. We don't like muslims here and they are not our brothers.
Only you think like that.
Other participators do not support this? Do they?
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SRP, what is the official attitude of Seselj's party to the fact that Muslim and Catholic Serbs have a religion other than Serbian Orthodox? Do Radicals want to return them to the Orthodoxy or they agree to view Serbian people as multi-religional?
Seselj says that we must not allow the abandoning of Serbian Muslims, Serbian Catholics, Serbian Atheists and other Serbs from Serbian name. If they get banned from the Serbian name, than foreign powers will assimilate them in new nations. These new nations [who live among us] we be weapons of foreign powers who attempt to invade our territories.
Seselj claims that we must convince them others forced them to abandon the Serbian name and religion.
This is to me the most responsible attitude.
Only an idiot can believe in this. They've been in another nations for hundreds of years and committed terrible genocides against us.
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Look brother, this is simply not a forum for you. We don't like muslims here and they are not our brothers.
Only you think like that.
Other participators do not support this? Do they?
Yes, they do. If you can read english, you'll see that nobody here accepts Islam.
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The truth is, there are many Turks of serbian origin in Istanbul, for example, a lot of your basketball players have serbian ancestry, like Hedo Turkoglu and Mirsad Turkcan. But, their ancestors were calling themselves Turks from the point of conversion.
I thought Turkoglu was a pure Turk who grew up in Serbia.
No, he was born in Istanbul. He learned some Serbian(or maybe Bosnian) from his grandparents. His real last name is Turkovic, I think.
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They do not want to accept Islam. Of course I know that they do not want to become Muslims. The fact that they do not want to become Muslims, does not mean that they hate all Muslims?
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SRP, what is the official attitude of Seselj's party to the fact that Muslim and Catholic Serbs have a religion other than Serbian Orthodox? Do Radicals want to return them to the Orthodoxy or they agree to view Serbian people as multi-religional?
Seselj says that we must not allow the abandoning of Serbian Muslims, Serbian Catholics, Serbian Atheists and other Serbs from Serbian name. If they leave the Serbian name, than foreign powers will assimilate them in new nations. These new nations [who live among us] we be weapons of foreign powers who attempt to invade our territories.
Seselj claims that we must convince them others forced them to abandon the Serbian name and religion.
This is to me the most responsible attitude.
I understand but how is he going to do that? They will certainly reject his claims as propaganda against their nation-states. They already have their rewritten versions of history which surely states they always existed as unique nations. Moreover, their sense of national difference from Serbs is amplified by their religions (Catholicism and Islam). Is he going to have religious and historical disputes with them?
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They do not want to accept Islam. Of course I know that they do not want to become Muslims. The fact that they do not want to become Muslims, does not mean that they hate all Muslims?
Hate and non-acceptance are two different things. I don't have hate for them, but I would still wipe out Islam from my country.
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They do not want to accept Islam. Of course I know that they do not want to become Muslims. The fact that they do not want to become Muslims, does not mean that they hate all Muslims?
Hate and non-acceptance are two different things. I don't have hate for them, but I would still wipe out Islam from my country.
So do I. I don't care if they choose to practice Islam in their states but they should not be allowed to impose Islam on the others.
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It seems that you think to have the right to ethnically cleanse certain people..
Vojoo you are right, this place is indeed nothing for me..
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Look brother, this is simply not a forum for you. We don't like muslims here and they are not our brothers.
Only you think like that.
Other participators do not support this? Do they?
SRP, you are an intelligent man but I don't understand your way of thinking. You really believe that Bosnian Muslims are our brothers? They hate us. They want nothing to do with Serbs. They honor Islam. The reason why I'm in Canada right now is because the Muslims drove us out of our own country, burned down our villages and killed our people. Why do you have this compassionate attitude towards them?
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It seems that you think to have the right to ethnically cleanse certain people..
Vojoo you are right, this place is indeed nothing for me..
Goodbye brother, I hope you'll come to your senses one day.
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SRP, you are an intelligent man but I don't understand your way of thinking. You really believe that Bosnian Muslims are our brothers? They hate us. They want nothing to do with Serbs. They honor Islam. The reason why I'm in Canada right now is because the Muslims drove us out of our own country, burned down our villages and killed our people. Why do you have this compassionate attitude towards them?
Look this makes me very upset!
I never SAID BOSNIAN MUSLIMS ARE OUR BROTHERS!
WHERE DID I SAY THAT?
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It seems that you think to have the right to ethnically cleanse certain people..
Vojoo you are right, this place is indeed nothing for me..
Goodbye brother, I hope you'll come to your senses one day.
I do not want to talk with people who support ethnic cleansing.
I was victim of ethnic cleansing and I do not want to talk with people who have this kind of ideas!
Please do not twists my words and do not say that I claim that Croats and Bosnians Muslims are our brothers..
If I claim that it is positive to see that Serbian Muslims of Turkey do not support assimilation of ex-Serbs, than you can not SAY THAT I THINK THAT BOSNIAN MUSLIMS ARE OUR BROTHERS!
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It seems that you think to have the right to ethnically cleanse certain people..
Vojoo you are right, this place is indeed nothing for me..
Goodbye brother, I hope you'll come to your senses one day.
I do not want to talk with people who support ethnic cleansing.
I was victim of ethnic cleansing and I do not want to talk with people who have this kind of ideas!
Please do not twists my words and do not say that I claim that Croats and Bosnians Muslims are our brothers..
If I claim that it is positive to see that Serbian Muslims of Turkey do not support assimilation of ex-Serbs, than you can not SAY THAT I THINK THAT BOSNIAN MUSLIMS ARE OUR BROTHERS!
But you are doing the same thing you accuse your opponents in: you twist their words to your advantage!
Vujo said "wipe out Islam" which does not necessarily mean expel all Muslims. You are jumping to conclusions too fast.
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You're right, you never said that but I was quoting voo-yoo when he said "they are not our brothers". You replied "only you think that".
I'm not accusing you of anything.
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Spectator
I am not doing that. It seems that you are not being honnest to your self.
You think expelling Muslims is solution, than you must have the courage to express that opinion.
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If I claim that it is positive to see that Serbian Muslims of Turkey do not support assimilation of ex-Serbs, than you can not SAY THAT I THINK THAT BOSNIAN MUSLIMS ARE OUR BROTHERS!
What is the point of this sentence?
Spectator
I am not doing that. It seems that you are not being honnest to your self.
You think expelling Muslims is solution, than you must have the courage to express that opinion.
Of course. This is a kahanist forum. Kahanist Jews want to expel muslims from Israel. You're the only one who doesn't understand this.
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Than he must have the courage to admit that like you..
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Spectator
I am not doing that. It seems that you are not being honnest to your self.
You think expelling Muslims is solution, than you must have the courage to express that opinion.
This means you don't understand me. The fact that I don't believe in Islam does not means that I will hate all people who were born under its influence. I don't have anything against people who don't challenge the customs of my country.
Another thing is when some group of people propagates hatred against my people and country and declares that they want to impose their way of life on me. And not only declares, but also wages war to reach these goals. The people who is involved in this must be expelled.
This does not mean that all the people Islamists govern share their views. They might have to agree with them publicly, because otherwise they can be killed, but this does not say they really share this view. Therefore, there is no need to expel ALL people of some national (Arab) or religious group (Islam as personal belief).
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Than he must have the courage to admit that like you..
He doesn't need courage. Just common sense. Only an idiot would allow muslims and hostile people to take over his country.
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On the other hand, SRP, Russians have expelled 3 million Germans from East Prussia in 1945, and divided their territory between themselves and Poland. Would you accuse Russians in ethnic cleansing? I won't.
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Yes if there are no arguments left, blame it on the Russians... ;D
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Yes if there are no arguments left, blame it on the Russians... ;D
I put my arguments before you. And I mentioned Russians not to blame them but to praise them because I think they did the right thing.
But you don't seem to have any valid arguments against mine.
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I personally won't take USSR as an example..
You think that that kind of politic will succeed, I have a different opinion. We will see what the future will bring.
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I personally won't take USSR as an example..
You think that that kind of politic will succeed, I have a different opinion. We will see what the future will bring.
Regardless of our opinions of this historical event, this is not my main point.
The main point is whether you are going to tolerate people who are involved in real or propaganda war against my country, and call the measures against them ethnic cleansing.
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For SRS,
You are falling into something that is called "ethno-filetism",putting the ethnic background before everything else.If those Serbs are Muslims and not Biblicallly religious(which affects on practical everyday life and more important on long-term periods meaning on coexisting with non believers),that fact is more important than just Serbian genetic pool that they have.If you are Biblically religious(may be Orthodox),than you should know that G-d look at men not by their ethnicity,but their character,soul,deeds,are they on the side of G-d,the side of life,or not.
Those ideas of "ethno-filetism" are also proposed from the people who are not religious,and dr Seselj is one of them as he is the biggest promoter of "national awakening" for Bosniaks and Crotas.They are good by its character,but in the same time very,very naive and impossible.But,that's the case when man is not Biblically religious,than he can fall into trap that common ethnic background is more important than spiritual.That can be deadly mistake and that mistake is happening to Serbia for almost 20 years,where we have a situation that our country is led by people who also have Serbian ethnicity,but they do not have common "system of values",as they are NOT Biblically religious.So,their Serbianhood you can throw into water...they're bad people.
It's more important what man is by his character/spirit/soul(which religion creates almost completely) than ethnic background and genetic pool from centuries ago.I would rather prefer Biblically religious Bulgarian or Romanian or Jewish man,than islamised Serbs.
And the number of the "official" Serbs in Turkey isn't that high.The number of 9.000.000 is probably accurate enough ,but not for those who remained Serbs.That number counts for those who had Serbian ethnicity,but today they call themselves "Bosnikas" living in Turkey or they accepted Turkish nationality and got assimilated.And by that fact all those of Serbian ethnic background who rejected its ethnic heritage can't be count as "official" Serbs,although we know and we can say what their background is.
So,from that number of 9.000.000 people with Serbian background,maybe there is 1% that count themselves as Serbian.Of course,we can inform other people what their ethnicity is,but that's all we can do and we shouldn't insist that much on their "national awakening" as we could face the fact that large number of Muslim population would like to return to Serbia.
Personally,I would never want something like that to happen...
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For SRS,
You are falling into something that is called "ethno-filetism",putting the ethnic background before everything else.If those Serbs are Muslims and not Biblicallly religious(which affects on practical everyday life and more important on long-term periods meaning on coexisting with non believers),that fact is more important than just Serbian genetic pool that they have.If you are Biblically religious(may be Orthodox),than you should know that G-d look at men not by their ethnicity,but their character,soul,deeds,are they on the side of G-d,the side of life,or not.
Ethno-filetism? I see we have a scholar type on this forum :)
In your last post you talk about a lot of not relevant things.
Brother, please try to understand this subject.
We are talking about simple facts, about Serbs who were converted into something else. You are thinking to difficult. I never said that ethnicity is more important or equal to spirituality, so please do not give unnecessary lections, which I already know.
I do not understand why you guys are being so difficult? Please think simply and logically. If ex-Serbs become aware of the fact that their ancestors were Orthodox Serbs, than the chance that they may return back to their original roots will increase. If these genetic Serbs of Turkey are aware of their Serbian heritage, than the claim of us, Orthodox Serbs, that Croatians and Bosniaks are assimilated Serbs will make more sense. These people want to support our side and you are naively condemning them. This behavior is against Serbian interests!
With this behavior you will send those Serbs to members of the Bosniak lobby, which is supported by the US and EU.
It surprises me that you people do not understand this.
I see that as soon as you hear the word ''Muslim'' you start to loose your logic.
Your prejudices are making you guys sometimes blind.
You also are not able to separate Bosnian Muslims from other Muslims.
Not every Muslim is a Bosnian Muslims or a Albanian.
You must think about that.
Your prejudices are making you very blind sometimes.
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For SRS,
You are falling into something that is called "ethno-filetism",putting the ethnic background before everything else.If those Serbs are Muslims and not Biblicallly religious(which affects on practical everyday life and more important on long-term periods meaning on coexisting with non believers),that fact is more important than just Serbian genetic pool that they have.If you are Biblically religious(may be Orthodox),than you should know that G-d look at men not by their ethnicity,but their character,soul,deeds,are they on the side of G-d,the side of life,or not.
Ethno-filetism? I see we have a scholar type on this forum :)
In your last post you talk about a lot of not relevant things.
Brother, please try to understand this subject.
...
Your prejudices are making you very blind sometimes.
SRP, you accuse people of being "blind", "talking about irrelevant things", "giving unnecessary lessons you already know" ..
You are not free of pejudices and you don't have any authority over anyone here.
Learn to respect your opponents. What is irrelevant to you might be very relevant to the others.
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Ethno-filetism? I see we have a scholar type on this forum :)
No,just an ordinary man.
In your last post you talk about a lot of not relevant things.
Everything I mentioned is relevant,but the question is have you got the point.
You should say what was irrelevant.
Brother, please try to understand this subject.
We are talking about simple facts, about Serbs who were converted into something else. You are thinking to difficult. I never said that ethnicity is more important or equal to spirituality, so please do not give unnecessary lections, which I already know.
They know that their ancestors were converted.And they know it better than you and me or any other Serb.Trust me on that.They even know who was the first to convert and when and they celebrate him as a "founding father" of their new Muslim family and someone who "connected them with G-d through Islam".
I do not understand why you guys are being so difficult? Please think simply and logically. If ex-Serbs become aware of the fact that their ancestors were Orthodox Serbs, than the chance that they may return back to their original roots will increase.
As I said ,that view is very naive.I know that in Radical Party this idea is one of the main ideas considering dr Seselj's concept of "Serbian nationalism",but again- it's naive.They know who they are...for centuries they know it.If they didn't "come back" to its roots - changed their religious views till now,where you can find justification for the statement that they are going to do that tomorrow?
Evey traitor hates the most those who were betrayed,and the history teaches us so,especially here on the Balkans.You can see it also in the case of Nikolic and Vucic against Seselj.After the treason,very soon betrayed Seselj became the main target for newly created pro-EU party and not the Government as it was till yesterday.The same case is with islamised Serbs in Bosnia and you can't change it just like that.It's naive.
If these genetic Serbs of Turkey are aware of their Serbian heritage, than the claim of us, Orthodox Serbs, that Croatians and Bosniaks are assimilated Serbs will make more sense.
OK,and what with that?Suppose that a certain small number become aware of that(which I would like),what do we get in the case of "Bosniaks"?Nothing..."Serbian propaganda and lobby caught in the net some stupid Bosniaks in Turkey and made them believe in a lie to use them against us,real descenders of Bogumils",etc...You could here those things from Bosnian Muslims as always in order to defend themselves from the truth.
These people want to support our side and you are naively condemning them. This behavior is against Serbian interests!
I'm NOT condemning them!That's not the truth.But,I'm telling that it is not possible to reconvert someone who lives in a different country ,grown in that country,made its character and the way of thinking as it is common in the country's society just with presenting them tha facts that their ancestors were Serbs.We can't do almost anything with those who KNOW who they are ,HERE in Serbia or Bosnia,in our neighborhood,so you can't expect that islamised Serbs in middle of the Islamic Turkey are going to start to reconvert to Orthodoxy after who knows how many years in Islam.That's ridiculous.Don't be naive.
Of course,I welcome the fact that there are such a people who are aware of their background and are on our side,although I'm not very familiarized what that means in practical and political way considering their views on our problems.
With this behavior you will send those Serbs to members of the Bosniak lobby, which is supported by the US and EU.
Yes,that's true.That thing is important and let's say the only thing that matters.Because,as I previously said ,you can't expect from them to return to their roots in fully.Not religiously.And that's very important,because if those start to move to Serbia and start to have a kids,tomorrow we could face with large percentage of Muslim population in Serbia and a very big chance of creating another internal conflict which could again split the nation.And we had such a situations with current Serbian Muslims in Bosnia,so let's not make the mistake twice.
It surprises me that you people do not understand this.
I see that as soon as you hear the word ''Muslim'' you start to loose your logic.
Your prejudices are making you guys sometimes blind.
I don't hate Muslims and that's not the case - starting loose my logic with the word "Muslim".But,you can't expect that majority of Serbs are going to rejoice if they think of the possibility that huge number of Muslims could come to Serbia.We do not live on Greenland and we are not Eskimos not to know what Muslim people can bring.We have a very painful history of meeting with Muslim nations,so I don't know what's so surprising to you.
I don't know how much are you aware of a certain teachings in Islamic concept,but they are not so good toward non-believers,Christians and Jews.Those certain teachings led to wars.
You also are not able to separate Bosnian Muslims from other Muslims.
Not every Muslim is a Bosnian Muslims or a Albanian.
You must think about that.
Your prejudices are making you very blind sometimes.
I don't hate any Serbian in Turkey,on the contrary.I'm really glad that they preserved the knowledge who they are and I'm even more glad if they want to help in the areas where they can do it.But,if they are not willing to fully return to its roots than I also like them but only in Turkey,not in Serbia.
And once again,if you think that majority of Serbs in Turkey are going to fully return to its roots,that's naive.That's not going to happen.Those islamised Serbs in Turkey who remained Serbian only by nationality should stay in Turkey and not removing to Serbia if they do not reject the conversion that the occupier did to them.Everything else except removing is acceptable for me.
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Kerber
I agree with your last post! You said a lot of logic thinks!
It's true that converts are the most obsessed and greatest extremists.
Even among them you have exceptions.
Look at Western-Bosnia! The Muslim inhabits of Western-Bosnia cooperated with Radovan Karadzic, they were Serbian allies. They fought against Muslim extremists and did not attack Serbs. Do you know how much courage you must have to do something like that? They openly stoop up against the Bosnian Muslim Neo-Nazi regime of Sarajevo and were allies of Radovan Karadzic. Because of the Western-Bosnian Muslims the US and the EU can not claim that Radovan Karadzic attempted to exterminate Bosnian Muslims. Please think about that. The Muslims of Western-Bosnia, who wanted to remain in Yugoslavia, are the living prove that the Muslim separatists, who were supproted by the EU and US, destroyed a multyethnic society, Yugoslavia.
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Kerber
I agree with your last post! You said a lot of logic thinks!
It's true that converts are the most obsessed and greatest extremists.
Even among them you have exceptions.
Look at Western-Bosnia! The Muslim inhabits of Western-Bosnia cooperated with Radovan Karadzic, they were Serbian allies. They fought against Muslim extremists and did not attack Serbs. Do you know how much courage you must have to do something like that? They openly stoop up against the Bosnian Muslim Neo-Nazi regime of Sarajevo and were allies of Radovan Karadzic. Because of the Western-Bosnian Muslims the US and the EU can not claim that Radovan Karadzic attempted to exterminate Bosnian Muslims. Please think about that. The Muslims of Western-Bosnia, who wanted to remain in Yugoslavia, are the living prove that the Muslim separatists, who were supproted by the EU and US, destroyed a multyethnic society, Yugoslavia.
What does this prove? That they wanted to be Serbs? Or just that they were surrounded by Serbs and had enough of the war? In any case, they were a huge minority and were beaten by Izetbegovic's army.
In present situation, I would agree to give such muslims a piece of Bosnia as their own state, but they still wouldn't be able to live in a Serbian state, and that's what Karadzic and Mladic also wanted to achieve.
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What does this prove? That they wanted to be Serbs?
What kind of question are you asking now brother?
It proves that they did not want to joint the anti-Serb coalition. You know that.
You know how many Orthodox-Serbs have been traitors to their own nation.
These ex-Serbs of Western-Bosnia can be an example to many so called Orthodo-Serb, traitors who spread US propaganda, accusing Radovan Karadzic for everything.
So this proves my point.
Serbs who are born in the Orthodox religion can become traitors and evil.
Ex-Serbs who are raised as Muslims can be much better than so called Orthodox-Serbs, who are traitors.
For example who is better for the Serbs Fikret Abdic or Boris Tadic?
Answer is Fikret Abdic. But Fikret Abdic is Muslim, so you can not say that Muslim Serbs can not be good to Serbia. Fikret Abdic said during the war that so called Serbian concentration camps are Wester-media lies, while today many so called Orthodox Serbs claim that Radovan Karadzic tried to exterminate Muslims, what is a flagrant lies.
Fikret Abdic was raised as a Muslim, but he proved to be better for Serbia than many ''Orthodox Serbs''. So it is not true that Muslim Serbs can not be good for Serbia!
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What does this prove? That they wanted to be Serbs?
What kind of question are you asking now brother?
It proves that they did not want to joint the anti-Serb coalition. You know that.
You know how many Orthodox-Serbs have been traitors to their own nation.
These ex-Serbs of Western-Bosnia can be an example to many so called Orthodo-Serb, traitors who spread US propaganda, accusing Radovan Karadzic for everything.
So if this proves my point.
Serbs who are born in the Orthodox religion can become traitors and evil.
Ex-Serbs who are raised as Muslims can be much better than so called Orthodox-Serbs, who are traitors.
For example who is better for the Serbs Fikret Abdic or Boris Tadic?
Answer is Fikret Abdic. But Fikret Abdic is Muslim, so you can not say that Muslim Serbs can not be good to Serbia. Fikret Abdic said during the war the so called Serbian concentration camps are Wester-media lies, while today many so called Orthodox Serbs claim that Radovan Karadzic tried to exterminate Muslims, what is a flagrant lies.
Fikret Abdic was raised as a Muslim, but he proved to be better for Serbia than many ''Orthodox Serbs''. So it is not true that Muslim Serbs can not be good for Serbia!
This doesn't prove your point.
The fact of the matter is that they cannot be Serbs if they are muslims. I think they cannot even be friends of Serbs. Look at Cazinska Krajina now, they are against us as any other muslim in Bosnia.
I'll say it again, if they want to live with us, they must reject Islam. That's because the basic concept of Islam is in contradiction with our way of life, the Biblical truth. They mustn't be influenced by it.
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Vojoo
That's nonsense!
You are really blind and you do not know what your are saying brother.
You claim that it is bad that Muslims of Fikret Abdic were pro-Serbian.
I told you something simple. It is a fact that Western-Bosnian Muslims had an alliance with Karadzic and fought against the Croatian-Muslim coalition.
You refuse to recognize that as something good. You do not want to recognize that assimilated Serbian Muslims of Western-Bosnia helped and supported Orthodox Serbs against other assimilated Serbs [Croats and Bosnian Muslims]? You are really unbelievable!
You are now talking about some hostile Muslims from Cazin, but you do not want to admit and recognize the fact that the majority of the Western-Bosnian Muslims was good and was pro-Serbian? Is it good that Muslims of Cazin are anti-Serb? No that is not good! Is it good that Abdic's Muslims are pro-Serbs. Yes that is good and you do not want to recognize that! That is not good of you!
How can you allow to be like that?
You are talking about Biblical truth? You are being a hypocrite now brother!
Lets take a look at the Bible: Luke 6:42
How can you say to your brother, 'Brother, let me take that splinter out of your eye,' when all the while you yourself do not see the beam in your own eye? Vain pretender! take the beam out of your own eye first, and then you will see clearly to take the splinter out of your brother's eye.
You see you are not Biblical at all.
The Bible condemns your behavior.
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Vojoo
That's nonsense!
You are really blind and you do not know what your are saying brother.
You claim that it is bad that Muslims of Fikret Abdic were pro-Serbian.
I told you something simple. It is a fact that Western-Bosnian Muslims had an alliance with Karadzic and fought against the Croatian-Muslim coalition.
You refuse to recognize that as something good. You do not want to recognize that assimilated Serbian Muslims of Western-Bosnia helped and supported Orthodox Serbs against other assimilated Serbs [Croats and Bosnian Muslims]? You are really unbelievable!
You are now talking about some hostile Muslims from Cazin, but you do not want to admit and recognize the fact that the majority of the Western-Bosnian Muslims was good and was pro-Serbian? Is it good that Muslims of Cazin are anti-Serb? No that is not good! Is it good that Abdic's Muslims are pro-Serbs. Yes that is good and you do not want to recognize that! That is not good of you!
How can you allow to be like that?
You are talking about Biblical truth? You are being a hypocrite now brother!
Lets take a look at the Bible: Luke 6:42
How can you say to your brother, 'Brother, let me take that splinter out of your eye,' when all the while you yourself do not see the beam in your own eye? Vain pretender! take the beam out of your own eye first, and then you will see clearly to take the splinter out of your brother's eye.
You see you are not Biblical at all.
The Bible condemns your behavior.
How stubborn and stupid can you be? Talking to you is like talking to a tree.
And that verse from the Bible refers to your brothers in faith, not to your enemies. I have another, better verse for you.
2 Corinthians 6:14-17 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness? And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel? And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you,
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How stubborn and stupid can you be? Talking to you is like talking to a tree.
And that verse from the Bible refers to your brothers in faith, not to your enemies. I have another, better verse for you.
I do not think that an Orthodox-Serb is able to use protestant interpretation of the bible ;D
You are using typical protestant false interpretation of the Bible.
This rule absolutely does not only refer to brothers in faith, it refers to mankind! You my brother are using a wrong interpretation of the Bible, which is not practised by the Orthodox Church.
The commandments count for all people!
The commandments You shall not kill, you shall not lie!
Does this only count for brothers in faith, or for all man kind?
It refers to whole mankind, not only brothers in faith!
You are not allowed to kill or to lie against people who are not practising your faith!
An Orthodox Serb is not allowed to lie to anyone! You are not allowed to lie against Serbs, ex-Serbs, Jews, Blacks, Muslims or other people. lying is a sin!
It does not matter to whom you are Lying! Lying is a sin!
So these commandments count not only for your own people, but also for other people. Orthodox Christianity is universal. It counts for everybody.
God does not separate people. All people are equal in Gods eyes!
Gods wants to save all people, yes even Muslims ;D
Please bother understand this.
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How stubborn and stupid can you be? Talking to you is like talking to a tree.
And that verse from the Bible refers to your brothers in faith, not to your enemies. I have another, better verse for you.
I do not think that an Orthodox-Serb is able to use protestant interpretation of the bible ;D
You are using typical protestant false interpretation of the Bible.
This rule absolutely does not only refer to brothers in faith, it refers to mankind! You my brother are using a wrong interpretation of the Bible, which is not practised by the Orthodox Church.
The commandments count for all people!
The commandments You shall not kill, you shall not lie!
Does this only count for brothers in faith, or for all man kind?
It refers to whole mankind, not only brothers in faith!
You are not allowed to kill or to lie against people who are not practising your faith!
An Orthodox Serb is not allowed to lie to anyone! You are not allowed to lie against Serbs, ex-Serbs, Jews, Blacks, Muslims or other people. lying is a sin!
It does not matter to whom you are Lying! Lying is a sin!
So these commandments count not only for your own people, but also for other people. Orthodox Christianity is universal. It counts for everybody.
G-d does not separate people. All people are equal in Gods eyes!
Gods wants to save all people, yes even Muslims ;D
Please bother understand this.
Whatever SRP. I don't have time to answer to all your ridiculous posts anymore. You've compromised yourself enough for everyone to see.
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Your obsession with Muslims is very dangerous!
You even twist the Bible in order to justify your hate towards people who are not like you want them to be..
This is scary!
PS according to your way of thinking I am allow to kill all non-Serbs ? ? ?
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You are dangerously close to fall into the category of troll.
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:o
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You are dangerously close to fall into the category of troll.
Come now. There's no need for name calling.
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And that verse from the Bible refers to your brothers in faith, not to your enemies. I have another, better verse for you.
You are using typical protestant false interpretation of the Bible.
This rule absolutely does not only refer to brothers in faith, it refers to mankind! You my brother are using a wrong interpretation of the Bible, which is not practised by the Orthodox Church.
...
The commandments count for all people!
The commandments You shall not kill, you shall not lie!
...
PS according to your way of thinking I am allow to kill all non-Serbs ? ? ?
SRP, why do you suppose Vujo says Bible allows to kill the non-Orthodox or lie to them? He only said "THAT VERSE from Bible refers to the brothers in faith", not "ALL the commandments are only for the Orthodox". I am a Jew and I am not going to judge what is right and what is wrong according to Orthodox Bible, but I think common human logic is not condemned by it.
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SRP, if Alija Izetbegovic and his supporters had started war with only weapons supply from Western powers (without political and military pressure on Serbia), what should Serbian leaders in Bosnia have done to them?
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And that verse from the Bible refers to your brothers in faith, not to your enemies. I have another, better verse for you.
You are using typical protestant false interpretation of the Bible.
This rule absolutely does not only refer to brothers in faith, it refers to mankind! You my brother are using a wrong interpretation of the Bible, which is not practised by the Orthodox Church.
...
The commandments count for all people!
The commandments You shall not kill, you shall not lie!
...
PS according to your way of thinking I am allow to kill all non-Serbs ? ? ?
SRP, why do you suppose Vujo says Bible allows to kill the non-Orthodox or lie to them? He only said "THAT VERSE from Bible refers to the brothers in faith", not "ALL the commandments are only for the Orthodox". I am a Jew and I am not going to judge what is right and what is wrong according to Orthodox Bible, but I think common human logic is not condemned by it.
Of course that verse doesn't have anything to do with killing, it says "don't be a hypocrite". So, you're not suppose to tell your brother that he's a liar or blind, if you're a liar and blind yourself.
But I'm not going to discuss religion with him, because he doesn't know anything about it.
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SRP, why do you suppose Vujo says Bible allows to kill the non-Orthodox or lie to them? He only said "THAT VERSE from Bible refers to the brothers in faith", not "ALL the commandments are only for the Orthodox". I am a Jew and I am not going to judge what is right and what is wrong according to Orthodox Bible, but I think common human logic is not condemned by it.
Sorry but your are not being logic at all. You are saying now something to your advantage. We do not need interpretations of outsiders to understand the Bible.
You support Vojoo automatically, because you agree with him on many subjects.
You are not being objective at all, not at all.
If he twists one verse, than he will twist also others to his atvantage.
That is logic.
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We do not need interpretations of outsiders to understand the Bible.
I don't interprent Bible. I question your personal assessment of Vujo. It has nothing to do with Bible.
Actually, you imply that he supports killing the non-Orthodox or lying to them. This is called demonization.
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I was not ascertaining that.
I only asked if he also thinks that other rules also only count for brothers in fait?
I left room for his eventual responce on that.
I did not ascertain anything..
He advocates ethnic cleaning, is not he demonizing his self?
He seems to did that. It seems that you agree with that.
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I was not ascertaining that.
I only asked if he also thinks that other rules also only count for brothers in fait?
I left room for his eventual responce on that.
I did not ascertain anything..
He advocates ethnic cleaning, is not he demonizing his self?
He seems to did that. It seems that you agree with that.
Even if you don't state it directly but write a long emotional post implying that it is true, this is already demonization. Try to understand, incitement to murder is a very serious crime and even an implication to it can make a person look bad in the eyes of the others, no matter what the truth is. This is a known method of western yellow press.
The same is true when you accuse me in supporting ethinic cleansing. Where did I say that I support it? I said that I support expulsion of those who want to destroy my country and murder and/or expel my people. Where did I say that this applies to ALL co-nationals or co-believers of these people? Also Vujo said "In present situation, I would agree to give such muslims a piece of Bosnia as their own state". Is this supporting of ethnic cleansing?
But it seems you want to win the debate at any cost :)
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I was not ascertaining that.
I only asked if he also thinks that other rules also only count for brothers in fait?
I left room for his eventual responce on that.
I did not ascertain anything..
He advocates ethnic cleaning, is not he demonizing his self?
He seems to did that. It seems that you agree with that.
What do you think we did in Bosnia, you imbecile? You think those Muslims and Croats left Republika Srpska voluntarily? It had to be done, they were hostile to us. If we didn't do it, sooner or later, WW2 would repeat, and we would be exterminated.
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What do you think we did in Bosnia, you imbecile?
Its easy for you to talk like that on the internet. Very, very brave!
You are making yourself looking miserable.
You are not a normal person. You claim that Serbs organized ethnic cleansing in Bosnia against non-Serbs? ? ? ? ? ? ?
What is wrong with you? I mean what kind of Serbs will talk like this? You sound like somebody who does not have a pro-Serbian agenda.
You really sound like some representative of the Hague tribunal.
I guess that everythings is clear. You described your self pretty good.
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You're either an imbecile or a brainwashed zombie employed by your party to spread its ideology here.
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Even if you don't state it directly but write a long emotional post implying that it is true, this is already demonization. Try to understand, incitement to murder is a very serious crime and even an implication to it can make a person look bad in the eyes of the others, no matter what the truth is. This is a known method of western yellow press.
I simpley do not agree. This is not the context which I wrote.
I did not state anything like that and I did not attemp to demonize anybody.
You probably misunderstood me. If you twist the rules, that may result into criminal activities. If somebody says that a certain rule only counts for a certain group of people, than that's discrimination. G-d's rules count for every human equally. People are equal but some people have a higer responsibility than others. People who have much information are more responsible than primitive people who are not civilized.
I did not mean to demonize anybody? I mean this sounds like a accusation?
I reject that and I explained that I did not attempt to demonize anybody.
Did I call anybody a murderer? No! I simply said that playing with conmandments can resulted inot criminal behavior.
You have people who use the Bible to justify hatred towards certain people.
Its sad but it exists. I tried to warm people not to aviod like that.
Actually I gave someone advice and that is not demonizing.
The same is true when you accuse me in supporting ethinic cleansing. Where did I say that I support it? I said that I support expulsion of those who want to destroy my country and murder and/or expel my people.
Ok. We did not finish that discusion. Maybe I thought that you said something else. Maybe I missinterpreted your message like you did not correctly understand my messages.
That disscusion was not over. If I insulted you, my appologies.
But you also do not understand me correctly somethimes.
I think that maybe we both pulled conclussions to fast.
Also Vujo said "In present situation, I would agree to give such muslims a piece of Bosnia as their own state". Is this supporting of ethnic cleansing?
He does not know what he is saying.
He even says Bosnian Serbs organized ethnic cleansing in Bosnia.
Please do not believe that. Even Hague tribunal did not prove that, but it seems that Voojoo has?
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You're either an imbecile or a brainwashed zombie employed by your party to spread its ideology here.
I think that you are not serious at all.
You do not even know me. You really enjoy spreading fantasies? Grow up!
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Is there a moderator here? Why do you let this imbecilic troll spread his pro-muslim propaganda here?
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I think we should understand we are not enemies here. Anyone of us is not perfect. It is important that our disagreements does not transform to personal hostility.
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But it seems you want to win the debate at any cost :)
No? I am just conducting a debate? I do not understand the meaning of this sentence? Is not a forum desinged for debating?
What are you exactly trying to say? What do you mean with at any cost?
It sounds pretty odd.
I guess that you are not use to debate people who are thinking differenty than you.
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I think we should understand we are not enemies here. Anyone of us is not perfect. It is important that our disagreements does not transform to personal hostility.
I agree 100%!
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But it seems you want to win the debate at any cost :)
No? I am just conducting a debate? I do not understand the meaning of this sentence? Is not a forum desinged for debating?
What are you exactly trying to say? What do you mean with at any cost?
It sounds pretty odd.
I guess that you are not use to debate people who are thinking differenty than you.
You're not debating with anyone. You're just repeating your ramblings over and over again, without any arguments. Like a broken record. That is called trolling.
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But it seems you want to win the debate at any cost :)
No? I am just conducting a debate? I do not understand the meaning of this sentence? Is not a forum desinged for debating?
Debate which is being conducted for the debate itself is a useless waste of time. The only kind of debate that can bring anything good is when the sides are ready to listen to the opponent and answer his questions. If the sides can't agree on something, they can at least better understand each other and define what exactly are points of disagreement.
I guess that you are not use to debate people who are thinking differenty than you.
Nothing of the kind. I indeed disagree with you on many issues but I also ask questions about your views. I realize that you may know something I don't know. The question is if you do the same.
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I think we should understand we are not enemies here. Anyone of us is not perfect. It is important that our disagreements does not transform to personal hostility.
Sorry friend, but would you feel the same if a "Peace Now" activist came here and arrogantly spread his ignorance like SRP does?
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I think we should understand we are not enemies here. Anyone of us is not perfect. It is important that our disagreements does not transform to personal hostility.
Sorry friend, but would you feel the same if a "Peace Now" activist came here and arrogantly spread his ignorance like SRP does?
To be honsest, I am disgusted with these people. If such a person would come and started to pour the propaganda without addressing my counter-arguments, I would be outraged. I said the above thing only because I suppose both you and SRP are Serbian nationalists and the gap between you is not very great. But I may be mistaken.
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I think we should understand we are not enemies here. Anyone of us is not perfect. It is important that our disagreements does not transform to personal hostility.
Sorry friend, but would you feel the same if a "Peace Now" activist came here and arrogantly spread his ignorance like SRP does?
To be honsest, I am disgusted with these people. If such a person would come and started to pour the propaganda without addressing my counter-arguments, I would be outraged. I said the above thing only because I suppose both you and SRP are Serbian nationalists and the gap between you is not very great. But I may be mistaken.
Of course Levi, that's the whole point here. How can a nationalist be someone who wants to live in a "multiethnic paradise" and has no problems whatsoever if muslims claim the right on his land? We have more volatile regions in Serbia, like Raska, where muslims have the majority. If we start listening to ignoramuses like SRP, that will go too.
It's the same story with Peace Now: "We mustn't do this to Arabs, it's their land too..."
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You are right, Vujo. Muslim separatism threatens both Serbia and Israel, and many other countries.
Peace Now are lousy traitors. The overwhelming majority of the Jews in Israel despises them but they don't care. They exist on EU money and simply perform their orders aimed at the destruction of the Jewish state. So I think they cannot be compared to SRP. SRP, as all of us agree, is just mistaken but they are proud traitors. I think they can be compared to LDP or some even more liberal and pro-EU non-governmental organization.
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I am sorry but this topic is being ruined. In the beginning it was a great topic but gradually it is transforming in to something else. By opening this topic I intended to raise an interesting discussion. I thought that you would be surprised with these kind of facts, which are obviously concealed in the West. It’s to bad that name-calling seems to be more important to certain people, than trying to pull some intelligent conclusions.
I noticed that people want to be notified about these subjects.
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You are right, Vujo. Muslim separatism threatens both Serbia and Israel, and many other countries.
Peace Now are lousy traitors. The overwhelming majority of the Jews in Israel despises them but they don't care. They exist on EU money and simply perform their orders aimed at the destruction of the Jewish state. So I think they cannot be compared to SRP. SRP, as all of us agree, is just mistaken but they are proud traitors. I think they can be compared to LDP or some even more liberal and pro-EU non-governmental organization.
He's not a traitor, just dangerously ignorant. Can he explain the fact that he shares the same view on this subject with LDP?
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Voojoo,
You only complain and you are very negative. Since the first day I arrive here, you had this kind of attitude. You are only ruining things! This topic was very intresting. Unfortunately you needed to start with name-calling and other childish stuff.
If you think that you are so wise, well open other topic and share arguments.
You do not do that. You constantly act like a little child, who gets angry if someone disagrees with it. You are being contraproductive and always looking for reasons to disagree with me.
I mean now you are saying that I share the same view on this subject with LDP?
This is what I mean. You have nothing normal to say and that's way you start to write nonsense, like this one. You never come with something interesting.
First of all LDP's ideology is the opposite to what I write here. If you had any knowledge, than you would not say something like that.
To be honnest you sound like LDP far more than I do! You talk about Russia and Russians exactly from the LDP perspective. You better be quite about that.
What's wrong with you? Why being so negative and arrogant?
Is everything oke with you?
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Voojoo,
You only complain and you are very negative. Since the first day I arrive here, you had this kind of attitude. You are only ruining things! This topic was very intresting. Unfortunately you needed to start with name-calling and other childish stuff.
If you think that you are so wise, well open other topic and share arguments.
You do not do that. You constantly act like a little child, who gets angry if someone disagrees with it. You are being contraproductive and always looking for reasons to disagree with me.
I mean now you are saying that I share the same view on this subject with LDP?
This is what I mean. You have nothing normal to say and that's way you start to write nonsense, like this one. You never come with something interesting.
First of all LDP's ideology is the opposite to what I write here. If you had any knowledge, than you would not say something like that.
To be honnest you sound like LDP far more than I do! You talk about Russia and Russians exactly from the LDP perspective. You better be quite about that.
What's wrong with you? Why being so negative and arrogant?
Is everything oke with you?
False and dangerous ideology gets on my nerves. With such "nationalism", who needs enemies? You can't expect me to be silent while you talk fairy tales about muslims who support Serbia, can you? With threads like this, you are twisting our entire history upside down.
You say I'm not normal and a real Serb because I support expelling hostile intruders from our land. Let me tell you something, in 1878. during the II Serbo-Turkish war, our army and Chetnik units drove out more than 70000 Albanians and muslims from southern Serbia which we liberated. In those days, the European powers complained about it, and also our "bleeding hearts" in Serbia like yourself. They said it's not civilized and moral, just like you told me.
But what would have happened today if those brave and wise Serbs didn't do it? Nish would probably be the capital of Greater Kosova. So, I thank God who gave the strength to my ancestors to do the right thing, and also to Bosnian Serbs. Karadzic, Mladic, and the Serbian people in Bosnia were normal and they also did what had to be done. And now, thanks to them, Republika Srpska can exist.
So, everything is ok with me, but you have to ask yourself the same question.
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False and dangerous ideology gets on my nerves. With such "nationalism", who needs enemies? You can't expect me to be silent while you talk fairy tales about muslims who support Serbia, can you?
That's not the problem. The problem is you are getting unnecessary upset al the time. You are only complaning, twisting things, making your self nerves and ruining a great debate for other participants. You do not do any thing else.
You twist things and as soon as I respond on that, than you refuse to continue debating and start name-calling, calling me brain washed? This kind of name-calling says more about you as it says about me.
This article which I published is pro-Serbian. The subject of the article is fake nations, who are being exposed by statements made by some converted Serbs. If I raise this kind of subjects, than you can not say that I am pro-Muslim or something like that. I as a participant of this forum have right to share facts with others people who seems to be intrested in what I have to say. If you can not handle that, it is not my problem. I can also open topics about Serbs who were assimilated into Catholic Hungarian, that will not mean that I am suddenly pro-Hungarian. If I open a topic about assimilated Muslim Serbs who are aware of their heritage, than you can not say I am pro-Muslim. If I separate those Muslim Serbs from Bosnian Muslims who are extremely hostile towards Serbia, than I am not being pro-Muslim.
Actually I do not see any problem here? I do not understand why you are insulting me and name-calling?
I guess you must have something personally against me? I do not see any other normal reason for you to explain your hostility towards me? I kindly ask you to keep your personal issues away from the forum.
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SRP, I always enjoy reading your posts, even if I don't agree with them. I only want to ask you one thing. Please not only put forward facts and your opinions but also try to answer the counter arguments posted by the other members. I notice that you always avoid hard questions. If you want that the others consider you seriously and not as a propaganda machine, you must at least try to answer them.
Vujo told you:
Let me tell you something, in 1878. during the II Serbo-Turkish war, our army and Chetnik units drove out more than 70000 Albanians and muslims from southern Serbia which we liberated. In those days, the European powers complained about it, and also our "bleeding hearts" in Serbia like yourself. They said it's not civilized and moral, just like you told me.
What is your opinion on that? Is it true? Are there other facts that should be mentioned in relation to it? Was it justified? Can it be called "ethnic cleansing"? You cannot continue your point about Serbian-Muslim alliance without answering these questions.
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Spectator
If somebody calles me this and that, than I will aviod such person.
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Spectator
If somebody calles me this and that, than I will aviod such person.
Well maybe he exaggerated a bit. You used to call him names too in the past. I hope you both will make peace.
But now I ask you the same question, about those events of 1878. What is your opinion?
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Spectator,
Is not that I am advocating a some kind of Serbian-Islamic alliance.
I want to have normal relations with Muslims, who do not have anything against Serbs. Just like I want to have normal relations with Jews who support Serbia, the same counts for others. If Jews or Muslims reject Serbophobia, than I am prepared to talk to them. The same counts for Croats and others.
If Croats condemn Serbophobia, than we can have a conversation.
I want to convince people to reject Serbophobia.
What is your opinion on that? Is it true? Are there other facts that should be mentioned in relation to it? Was it justified? Can it be called "ethnic cleansing"? You cannot continue your point about Serbian-Muslim alliance without answering these questions.
It is true that after the collapse of the Ottomanic Empire which also occupied Serbian territories, many Muslims left the Balkans. That is a fact and I recognize that. I do not agree with Voojoo who spreads Western-propaganda, calming that Serbs are guilty for the fact that also many civilian Muslims left the Balkans after the Balkan wars.
Everybody knows that the Turkish authorities were the occupying forces of the Balkans. Turks arrived to the Balkans, by using violence and aggression.
The Serbs did not arrive to Turkish territory, but Turks arrived to Serbian national territory. The Serbs fought on their own territories and they were fighting against Turkish occupying forces and not against some kind of civilians.
When the Serbs overpowered, with help from Russia, the Turkish occupying forces, the Turkish authorities started to withdraw towards the lands of origin.
The Serbian rebellion caused the withdraw of Turks from the Balkan towards their land of origin, but that was a consequence of the Turkish oppression and occupation over Serbian territories.
This does not prove that Serbs cleansed Muslim civilians during the Serbian rebellion against the occupying forces. The Turkish army and authorities started to withdraw to their land of origin, after the Serbs liberated their territories.
The families of the occupying forces did not want to stay on the Balkans after the collapse of the Ottomanic Empire. The Serbs could not force the families of the Turkish authorities to remain in Serbia, during the withdrawing of the Turskih army.
Those Muslims who did not want to leave Serbia, after the liberation, were not cleansed by Serbs. These Muslims still live in Serbia and their human rights have always been guaranteed by Serbian authorities.
Serbs are not responsible for the fact that some Muslim families did not want to live on the Balkans after the Turkish authorities have been expelled.
It is logical that Turkish/Muslim families of the members of the Turkish authorities did not want to stay in Serba, after the expelling of the Turkish authorities [occupying forces].
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I want to have normal relations with Muslims, who do not have anything against Serbs. Just like I want to have normal relations with Jews who support Serbia, the same counts for others. If Jews or Muslims reject Serbophobia, than I am prepared to talk to them. The same counts for Croats and others.
If Croats condemn Serbophobia, than we can have a conversation.
I want to convince people to reject Serbophobio.
This is a normal nationalistic approach. I understand it.
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Serbs are not responsible for the fact that some Muslim families did not want to live on the Balkans after the Turkish authorities have been expelled.
It is logical that Turkish/Muslim families of the members of the Turkish authorities did not want to stay in Serba, after the expelling of the Turkish authorities [occupying forces].
In other words you want to say that the overwhelming majority of Muslims who left Serbia together with the Turks were not expelled by force but left because they didn't want to tolerate the fact that the Serbs restored their rights in Serbia? And those who agreed with it stayed and their personal rights are respected? Did I understand you right?
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In other words you want to say that the overwhelming majority of Muslims who left Serbia together with the Turks were not expelled by force but left because they didn't want to tolerate the fact that the Serbs restored their rights in Serbia? And those who agreed with it stayed and their personal rights are respected? Did I understand you right?
Correct.
The overwhelming majority of the Turkish Muslims decided to leave Serbia and Bosnia, because they wanted to live in Turkey and not in Serbia. That's correct.
Among those Turkish Muslims you had also converted ex-Serbs who also left Serbia, together with the Turks. But some Muslim Serbs [converts] accepted the Serbian authority and they remained in Serbia, after the withdraw of the Turkish occupying forces.
Who wanted to say in liberated Serbia was not not prosecuted by the Serbian authorities. The Muslims who wanted to stay in Serbia were respected and not prosecuted. Those who did not want to accept the collapse of the Turkish Empire, which was a colonial Empire, left Serbia and went to Turkey.
The Serbs did not use ethnic cleansing or genocide in order to liberate Serbia and end the Turkish oppression. That's is Western-propaganda.
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Ok. Vujo also said: "In those days, the European powers complained about it, and also our "bleeding hearts" in Serbia".
I can believe that European powers probably lied about Serbs, as they did before and after that. But why there were Serbs whose hearts "bled" about the departure of the Muslims? If the Muslims left by their own will, why worry?
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I can believe that European powers probably lied about Serbs, as they did before and after that.
Voojoo said that our forefather carried out ethnic cleansing during liberation of Serbia. That is a Wester lie!
But why there were Serbs whose hearts "bled" about the departure of the Muslims? If the Muslims left by their own will, why worry?
Who said that the Serbs hearts bled? ? ? ? :)
Serbs wanted to liberate Serbia, that's all!
Serbs were happy that the Turkish oppressors left the Balkans!
It was a legitimate action.
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Who said that the Serbs hearts bled? ? ? ? :)
Serbs wanted to liberate Serbia, that's all!
Serbs were happy that the Turkish oppressors left the Balkans!
It was a legitimate action.
Don't worry, I certainly understand the liberation of Serbia was legitimate. The Serbs liberated their land from foreign rule, that is legitimate. Any normal person will rejoice when his land is liberated.
But Vujo said that there were some Serbs who complained about the way how the Muslims had to leave, and they called it "immoral and uncivilized".
Let me tell you something, in 1878. during the II Serbo-Turkish war, our army and Chetnik units drove out more than 70000 Albanians and muslims from southern Serbia which we liberated. In those days, the European powers complained about it, and also our "bleeding hearts" in Serbia like yourself. They said it's not civilized and moral, just like you told me.
Who were these people? And why did they say so?
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Who were these people? And why did they say so?
I do not think that these people existed. Vojoo is propably making something up.
I never heard that ridiculous claim before, which Vojoo is claiming !!
This is the first time that I hear something funny like that.
Muslims wo accepted the new Serbian rule were not forced to leave.
Why would Serbs cry for the departure of Turks and others who did not want to recognize the fall of the Turkish colonial Empire?
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Who were these people? And why did they say so?
I do not think that these people existed. Vojoo is propably making something up.
I never heard that ridiculous claim before, which Vojoo is claiming !!
This is the first time that I hear something funny like that.
Muslims wo accepted the new Serbian rule were not forced to leave.
Why would Serbs cry for the departure of Turks and others who did not want to recognize the fall of the Turkish colonial Empire?
I don't think Vujo would make something up, he is a serious person and Serbian patriot. I suppose you and he have different interpretation of the same historical event. Well, I have to go, thank you for explanations :)
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Serbs will agree that libaration of Serbia was achived with ethnic cleansing.
I reject that interpretation of Vojoo. Thats a false interpretation.
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Hello Levi. Another day of educating ignoramuses like SRP, huh?
So I see his latest "brilliant" theory is that they left voluntarily. They couldn't look at Serbs as equals, and they yearned for the splendid architecture of Turkey, so they left. Levi, if you're not laughing, I congratulate you. I would like SRP to explain why haven't then muslims and Albanians left Serbia after the 1912. war.
Well, here is the list of those bleeding hearts:
General Jovan Belimarkovic opposed the deportation and offered his resignation to the government over this issue and
journalist Manojlo Djordjevic also condemned these policies and argued that Serbia should have pursued a policy of peaceful reconciliation towards the Albanians:
In Toplica the Albanians were encountered, and we had nothing more important to do but to expel these warlike, but hard-working people from
their homes. Instead of making a peace with them as the defeated side – they were without any good reason pushed across the border – so that they’ll settle on the other side as the enemies of everything Serbian, to become the avengers towards those who pushed them from their homes.
Despite some voices of dissent, the Serbian regime ‘encouraged’ about 71,000 Muslims, including 49,000 Albanians, ‘to leave’. The regime then gradually settled Serbs and Montenegrins in these territories. Prior to 1878, the Serbs comprised not more than one half of the population of Nis, the largest city in the region; by 1884 the Serbian share rose to 80 per cent. According to Ottoman sources, Serbian forces also destroyed mosques in Leskovac, Prokuplje, and Vranje.
The ‘cleansing’ of Toplica and Kosanica would have long-term negative effects on Serbian-Albanian relations. The Albanians expelled from these regions moved over the new border to Kosovo, where the Ottoman authorities forced the Serb population out of the border region and settled the refugees there. Janjicije Popovic, a Kosovo Serb community leader in the period prior to the Balkan Wars, noted that after the 1876–8 wars, the hatred of the Turks and Albanians towards the Serbs ‘tripled’.A number of Albanian refugees from Toplica region, radicalized by their experience, engaged in retaliatory violence against the Serbian minority in Kosovo.In 1900 Zivojin Peric´, a Belgrade Professor of Law, noted that in retrospect, ‘this unbearable situation probably would not have occurred had the Serbian government allowed Albanians to stay in Serbia’. He also argued that conciliatory treatment towards Albanians in Serbia could have helped the Serbian government to gain the sympathies of Albanians of the Ottoman Empire.
You can also read on the internet about social-democratic traitors like Dimitrije Tucovic, Svetozar Markovic and what they were saying about Serbian-Albanian relations.
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I would also like to add, that our government had a plan of expelling the Albanians from Kosovo to Turkey (see Vaso Cubrilovic), but unfortunately the II Second World War stoped it. For example, our Nobel prize winner, Ivo Andric was also working on that.
The plan was very much like Rav Kahane's plan, with compensation and all that.
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SRP,the fact that you don't understand,people who are at this forum are extremely muslim haters and don't refer to them as human beings.
Even if you say the bible tells to people to not kill or lie to other people without considering if he/she is your religious brother but generally all mankind,then they would say ; Muslims are not even human beings.So what's the point of not killing,slaying,raping or nuking them?
You think you've come to a democratic forum,yes you did.This is a democtratic place but you can't change anybody's mind here regarding muslims or Islam.They even get excited or enjoyed when a muslim family's underage baby killed by somehow,saying ; One less muslim from this world :S
Therefore I don't think this is a forum for you.
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Mehmetce
Komsi, Komsi :)
Are you my komsi or not? You know what komsi means?
I just want to convince these people, that Serbian nationalism does not support hate towards people of the Islamic religion. If people of the Islamic religion do not support Serbophobia, than these Muslims have my honnest respect!
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Mehmetce
Komsi, Komsi :)
Are you my komsi or not? You know what komsi means?
I just want to convince these people, that Serbian nationalism does not support hate towards people of the Islamic religion. If people of the Islamic religion do not support Serbophobia, than these Muslims have my honnest respect!
You mean Komşu ? Neighbour ?
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Vujo, thank you for educating me of these very interesting facts. I wonder, what SRP will reply to them. I suppose he will say you made it all up, including names
:-X ??? ;D
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Yes Komsija: neighbour!
We are komsijas, are not we :)
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SRP,the fact that you don't understand,people who are at this forum are extremely muslim haters and don't refer to them as human beings.
Even if you say the bible tells to people to not kill or lie to other people without considering if he/she is your religious brother but generally all mankind,then they would say ; Muslims are not even human beings.So what's the point of not killing,slaying,raping or nuking them?
You think you've come to a democratic forum,yes you did.This is a democtratic place but you can't change anybody's mind here regarding muslims or Islam.They even get excited or enjoyed when a muslim family's underage baby killed by somehow,saying ; One less muslim from this world :S
Therefore I don't think this is a forum for you.
This is what your people did to mine. Don't twist the facts, it wasn't Serbia which invaded Turkey, it was the other way round. We have every right to remove your spawn from our land, who uses every opportunity to try subjecting us to another 500 years of slavery and darkness.
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SRP,the fact that you don't understand,people who are at this forum are extremely muslim haters and don't refer to them as human beings.
There is no need to generalize. Even if somebody says extreme and untrue things, there is no need to transfer such views to everybody here. If you don't hate me, I don't hate you. If you refer to me as human being, I will refer to you so too. We condemn people here not for what they are but for what they do. So don't spread lies, please.
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Vujo, thank you for educating me of these very interesting facts. I wonder, what SRP will reply to them. I suppose he will say you made it all up, including names
:-X ??? ;D
Why would I say that? What are you trying to prove now? I do not get your piont.
I think that it is not relevant to discuss about some people who though this or though that. It does not bother me. I am glad that the Serbs are liberated from the Ottoman rule. That is relevant :)
Serbs were occupied 500 years long and they aimed for liberation.
You have always people who want to interpret this as something alse.
I know that real Serbs will not say that Serbs cleanse people in order to create Serbia. Voojoo even says that Karadzic was cleansing so you can expect everything from that kind of people.
Serbian historians and other regular sources will not claim like Voojoo, that Serbs used ethnic cleansing to libarete Serbia. Serbs liberate their territories in order to prevent ethnic cleansing! You must always have that in mind.
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SRP,the fact that you don't understand,people who are at this forum are extremely muslim haters and don't refer to them as human beings.
There is no need to generalize. Even if somebody says extreme and untrue things, there is no need to transfer such views to everybody here. If you don't hate me, I don't hate you. If you refer to me as human being, I will refer to you so too. We condemn people here not for what they are but for what they do. So don't spread lies, please.
I am not lieying,
If I do,We'll see how many people will oppose to my statement.
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Vujo, thank you for educating me of these very interesting facts. I wonder, what SRP will reply to them. I suppose he will say you made it all up, including names
:-X ??? ;D
Why would I say that? What are you trying to prove now? I do not get your piont.
I think that it is not relevant to discuss about some people who though this or though that. It does not bother me. I am glad that the Serbs are liberated from the Ottoman rule. That is relevant :)
Serbs were occupied 500 years long and they aimed for liberation.
You have always people who want to interpret this as something alse.
I know that real Serbs will not say that Serbs cleanse people in order to create Serbia. Voojoo even says that Karadzic was cleansing so you can expect everything from that kind of people.
Serbian historians and other regular sources will not claim like Voojoo, that Serbs used ethnic cleansing to libarete Serbia. Serbs liberate their territories in order to prevent ethnic cleansing! You must always have that in mind.
What else can I say. You're thick as a brick, and blind as a bat.
Karadzic and Mladic were cleansing, and they were cleansing good. Serbian people is forever grateful to them.
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Yes Komsija: neighbour!
We are komsijas, are not we :)
Yes we are,
SRP I see some love towards turks and muslims in you.
Why ?I really can't understand that.
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Yes Komsija: neighbour!
We are komsijas, are not we :)
Yes we are,
SRP I see some love towards turks and muslims in you.
Why ?I really can't understand that.
:::D No one can.
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SRP,the fact that you don't understand,people who are at this forum are extremely muslim haters and don't refer to them as human beings.
There is no need to generalize. Even if somebody says extreme and untrue things, there is no need to transfer such views to everybody here. If you don't hate me, I don't hate you. If you refer to me as human being, I will refer to you so too. We condemn people here not for what they are but for what they do. So don't spread lies, please.
I am not lieying,
If I do,We'll see how many people will oppose to my statement.
If you really want to see, post a poll in the general section. Not many people will see your question here.
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SRP,the fact that you don't understand,people who are at this forum are extremely muslim haters and don't refer to them as human beings.
There is no need to generalize. Even if somebody says extreme and untrue things, there is no need to transfer such views to everybody here. If you don't hate me, I don't hate you. If you refer to me as human being, I will refer to you so too. We condemn people here not for what they are but for what they do. So don't spread lies, please.
I am not lieying,
If I do,We'll see how many people will oppose to my statement.
If you really want to see, post a poll in the general section. Not many people will see your question here.
Never mind,people who are at this topic enough I think :
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Yes we are,
SRP I see some love towards turks and muslims in you.
Why ?I really can't understand that.
I do not even hate all Catholics, some Catholcis were the greatest murders of the Serbian nation. Catholics placed my people in extermination camps, including very young children. That policy was supported by Bosnian Muslims.
Turks carried out crimes againsts Serbs, but the Catholic crimes were far more worse. Look if you do not want to invade Serbia and harm Serbian people, than there is no problem.
You do not understand this because you are raised up believing that Serbs are monsters who killed and slaughter people. Please do not believe Serbophobic Western media lies.
I have Jewish and Muslim friends with whom I cooperate in order to expose Serbophobia and Western media lies.
Do not believe lies about Serbs, Jews or Muslim.
You have in every nation bad execptions, but regular Serbs do not hate Muslim or others.
I am a supporter of the Serbian Radical Party, the most nationalistic party of Serbia and I can garantee to you that we do not hate anybody! We only want the liberation of our territories, which are occupied by NATO-forces.
Mehmetce if you ever visit Serbia, come to at my place and we will drink Raki [Rakija]?
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Yes we are,
SRP I see some love towards turks and muslims in you.
Why ?I really can't understand that.
I do not even hate all Catholics, some Catholcis were the greatest murders of the Serbian nation. Catholics placed my people in extermination camps, including very young children. That policy was supported by Bosnian Muslims.
Turks carried out crimes againsts Serbs, but the Catholic crimes were far more worse. Look if you do not want to invade Serbia and harm Serbian people, than there is no problem.
You do not understand this because you are raised up believing that Serbs are monsters who killed and slaughter people. Please do not believe Serbophobic Western media lies.
I have Jewish and Muslim friends with whom I cooperate in order to expose Serbophobia and Western media lies.
Do not believe lies about Serbs, Jews or Muslim.
You have in every nation bad execptions, but regular Serbs do not hate Muslim or others.
I am a supporter of the Serbian Radical Party, the most nationalistic party of Serbia and I can garantee to you that we do not hate anybody! We only want the liberation of our territories, which are occupied by NATO-forces.
Mehmetce if you ever visit Serbia, come to at my place and we will drink Raki [Rakija]?
I see your point,during the fall of istanbul 1453,some greeks also told that they would prefer Turkish sword instead of catholic cruelty.
So why catholics hate or hated in the past from orthodox that much?
In our history books it tells,serbs are accepted Turkish ruling in their own territory just after the falling of constaninopolis without fighting.,as a small nation and surrended by catholics and all other their enemies they had no chance but accept turkish rule.
But they were doing enemy acts all the time to ottoman empire untill they gained their freedom back.
Is this right?
I would love to do that but I fear people like voo-yo could cut my head off only because I am turkish,so I don't think I would ever visit Serbia :SI don't think it's a safe country for Turks.
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Yes we are,
SRP I see some love towards turks and muslims in you.
Why ?I really can't understand that.
I do not even hate all Catholics, some Catholcis were the greatest murders of the Serbian nation. Catholics placed my people in extermination camps, including very young children. That policy was supported by Bosnian Muslims.
Turks carried out crimes againsts Serbs, but the Catholic crimes were far more worse. Look if you do not want to invade Serbia and harm Serbian people, than there is no problem.
You do not understand this because you are raised up believing that Serbs are monsters who killed and slaughter people. Please do not believe Serbophobic Western media lies.
I have Jewish and Muslim friends with whom I cooperate in order to expose Serbophobia and Western media lies.
Do not believe lies about Serbs, Jews or Muslim.
You have in every nation bad execptions, but regular Serbs do not hate Muslim or others.
I am a supporter of the Serbian Radical Party, the most nationalistic party of Serbia and I can garantee to you that we do not hate anybody! We only want the liberation of our territories, which are occupied by NATO-forces.
Mehmetce if you ever visit Serbia, come to at my place and we will drink Raki [Rakija]?
I see your point,during the fall of istanbul 1453,some greeks also told that they would prefer Turkish sword instead of catholic cruelty.
So why catholics hate or hated in the past from orthodox that much?
This is true, we suffered the same from both Catholics and Muslims. They only used different tactics.
In our history books it tells,serbs are accepted Turkish ruling in their own territory just after the falling of constaninopolis without fighting.,as a small nation and surrended by catholics and all other their enemies they had no chance but accept turkish rule.
But they were doing enemy acts all the time to ottoman empire untill they gained their freedom back.
Is this right?
What a perversion of history. So we were doing war crimes against our Turkish liberators? Luckily for us, Hague tribunal didn't exist at that time.
I would love to do that but I fear people like voo-yo could cut my head off only because I am turkish,so I don't think I would ever visit Serbia :SI don't think it's a safe country for Turks.
If I had a saying in this, you could come as a tourist, but first you would have to sign a statement on the border that you are sorry for what your ancestors did to us, and that you disagree in everything with them.
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I would love to do that but I fear people like voo-yo could cut my head off only because I am turkish,so I don't think I would ever visit Serbia :SI don't think it's a safe country for Turks.
Friend I know many, many Turks who travel through Serbia towards Turkey!
In Serbian town of Nis, you even have a Hotel near the road which designed by Serbs only for Turkish tourists. Turkish people are being there served with their food and things like that.
In Serbia you have more than 25 national minorities whose rights are garenteed like in other civilized countries.
Voo-yoo is angry, but I do not think that he will harm civilians! I do not think that he would do that. He is not that stupied.
You must understand voo-yo's anger, NATO-pact bombed his country and the whole world was against Serbia.
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You must understand voo-yo's anger, NATO-pact bombed his country and the whole world was against Serbia.
Oh yeah, I forgot about that one. Turkish NATO planes bombarded Serbia in 1999. and Turkey recognized independent Kosovo. What do you say about that Mehmetce?
But I don't have anything against them leaving money on Serbian highways.
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You must understand voo-yo's anger, NATO-pact bombed his country and the whole world was against Serbia.
Oh yeah, I forgot about that one. Turkish NATO planes bombarded Serbia in 1999. and Turkey recognized independent Kosovo. What do you say about that Mehmetce?
But I don't have anything against them leaving money on Serbian highways.
I heard for the first time about Turkish planes bombing Serbia in 1999 from you.
Do you want me to tell you honestly my opionion about kosovo?
I don't care..and no one cares in Turkey.Why should I care?It's not my country,it's not even close to me.So if Turkey recognize kosovo or not,no difference for me.
"But I don't have anything against them leaving money on Serbian highways." what does this mean?
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Yes we are,
SRP I see some love towards turks and muslims in you.
Why ?I really can't understand that.
I do not even hate all Catholics, some Catholcis were the greatest murders of the Serbian nation. Catholics placed my people in extermination camps, including very young children. That policy was supported by Bosnian Muslims.
Turks carried out crimes againsts Serbs, but the Catholic crimes were far more worse. Look if you do not want to invade Serbia and harm Serbian people, than there is no problem.
You do not understand this because you are raised up believing that Serbs are monsters who killed and slaughter people. Please do not believe Serbophobic Western media lies.
I have Jewish and Muslim friends with whom I cooperate in order to expose Serbophobia and Western media lies.
Do not believe lies about Serbs, Jews or Muslim.
You have in every nation bad execptions, but regular Serbs do not hate Muslim or others.
I am a supporter of the Serbian Radical Party, the most nationalistic party of Serbia and I can garantee to you that we do not hate anybody! We only want the liberation of our territories, which are occupied by NATO-forces.
Mehmetce if you ever visit Serbia, come to at my place and we will drink Raki [Rakija]?
I see your point,during the fall of istanbul 1453,some greeks also told that they would prefer Turkish sword instead of catholic cruelty.
So why catholics hate or hated in the past from orthodox that much?
This is true, we suffered the same from both Catholics and Muslims. They only used different tactics.
In our history books it tells,serbs are accepted Turkish ruling in their own territory just after the falling of constaninopolis without fighting.,as a small nation and surrended by catholics and all other their enemies they had no chance but accept turkish rule.
But they were doing enemy acts all the time to ottoman empire untill they gained their freedom back.
Is this right?
What a perversion of history. So we were doing war crimes against our Turkish liberators? Luckily for us, Hague tribunal didn't exist at that time.
I would love to do that but I fear people like voo-yo could cut my head off only because I am turkish,so I don't think I would ever visit Serbia :SI don't think it's a safe country for Turks.
If I had a saying in this, you could come as a tourist, but first you would have to sign a statement on the border that you are sorry for what your ancestors did to us, and that you disagree in everything with them.
So,this agrrement would protect me from beheading in Serbia?
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I would love to do that but I fear people like voo-yo could cut my head off only because I am turkish,so I don't think I would ever visit Serbia :SI don't think it's a safe country for Turks.
Friend I know many, many Turks who travel through Serbia towards Turkey!
In Serbian town of Nis, you even have a Hotel near the road which designed by Serbs only for Turkish tourists. Turkish people are being there served with their food and things like that.
In Serbia you have more than 25 national minorities whose rights are garenteed like in other civilized countries.
Voo-yoo is angry, but I do not think that he will harm civilians! I do not think that he would do that. He is not that stupied.
You must understand voo-yo's anger, NATO-pact bombed his country and the whole world was against Serbia.
I know Voo-yo would not do something like that,but as I said,"people like him" could do.How could he find me find me in serbia even if I go there anyway.You or no one could guarantee me that there is no danger in Serbia whatsoever as I can't guarantee you that you guys would be totally safe in Turkey.There is always a potential.
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Serbia is not Turkey...
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I heard for the first time about Turkish planes bombing Serbia in 1999 from you.
Well, now you know. But, you probably don't care, right?
Do you want me to tell you honestly my opionion about kosovo?
I don't care..and no one cares in Turkey.Why should I care?It's not my country,it's not even close to me.So if Turkey recognize kosovo or not,no difference for me.
You don't care, and that's ok. But, how can you be our friend then? What do you care about?
"But I don't have anything against them leaving money on Serbian highways." what does this mean?
Many Turks pass trough Serbia every summer when they drive from Germany to Turkey and back. To use the highway, you pay a certain amount of money. I don't know the english term for that.
So,this agrrement would protect me from beheading in Serbia?
It wouldn't be wise or safe for anyone to glorify the Turkish rule in Serbia.
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I heard for the first time about Turkish planes bombing Serbia in 1999 from you.
Well, now you know. But, you probably don't care, right?
Do you want me to tell you honestly my opionion about kosovo?
I don't care..and no one cares in Turkey.Why should I care?It's not my country,it's not even close to me.So if Turkey recognize kosovo or not,no difference for me.
You don't care, and that's ok. But, how can you be our friend then? What do you care about?
"But I don't have anything against them leaving money on Serbian highways." what does this mean?
Many Turks pass trough Serbia every summer when they drive from Germany to Turkey and back. To use the highway, you pay a certain amount of money. I don't know the english term for that.
So,this agrrement would protect me from beheading in Serbia?
It wouldn't be wise or safe for anyone to glorify the Turkish rule in Serbia.
I didn't say I don't care about Turkey bombings in Serbia,I just don't know and got nothing to say about it.When Ido,I ll say my ideas.Kosovo's situation is something only you and kosovo have to solve each other.If you have enough power politically or militarily then prevent it from being happened.Reason why I say I don't care is simply I don't support any sides here.I wouldn't gain anything wheter kosovo becomes a state or not so personally I don't care.I am not tryig to be anybody's friend or enemy here,but only say my opinions correctly.I can't alter my ideas by considering your and anybody else's wishes.
Who glorifies Turkish rule in Serbia?
Me? :S
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Yes we are,
SRP I see some love towards turks and muslims in you.
Why ?I really can't understand that.
I do not even hate all Catholics, some Catholcis were the greatest murders of the Serbian nation. Catholics placed my people in extermination camps, including very young children. That policy was supported by Bosnian Muslims.
Turks carried out crimes againsts Serbs, but the Catholic crimes were far more worse. Look if you do not want to invade Serbia and harm Serbian people, than there is no problem.
You do not understand this because you are raised up believing that Serbs are monsters who killed and slaughter people. Please do not believe Serbophobic Western media lies.
I have Jewish and Muslim friends with whom I cooperate in order to expose Serbophobia and Western media lies.
Do not believe lies about Serbs, Jews or Muslim.
You have in every nation bad execptions, but regular Serbs do not hate Muslim or others.
I am a supporter of the Serbian Radical Party, the most nationalistic party of Serbia and I can garantee to you that we do not hate anybody! We only want the liberation of our territories, which are occupied by NATO-forces.
Mehmetce if you ever visit Serbia, come to at my place and we will drink Raki [Rakija]?
I see your point,during the fall of istanbul 1453,some greeks also told that they would prefer Turkish sword instead of catholic cruelty.
So why catholics hate or hated in the past from orthodox that much?
This is true, we suffered the same from both Catholics and Muslims. They only used different tactics.
In our history books it tells,serbs are accepted Turkish ruling in their own territory just after the falling of constaninopolis without fighting.,as a small nation and surrended by catholics and all other their enemies they had no chance but accept turkish rule.
But they were doing enemy acts all the time to ottoman empire untill they gained their freedom back.
Is this right?
What a perversion of history. So we were doing war crimes against our Turkish liberators? Luckily for us, Hague tribunal didn't exist at that time.
I would love to do that but I fear people like voo-yo could cut my head off only because I am turkish,so I don't think I would ever visit Serbia :SI don't think it's a safe country for Turks.
If I had a saying in this, you could come as a tourist, but first you would have to sign a statement on the border that you are sorry for what your ancestors did to us, and that you disagree in everything with them.
So,this agrrement would protect me from beheading in Serbia?
Please stop talking about beheading. Serbs don't practice ritual beheadings. We are not that cruel of a people. We murder if we have to we don't kill people and cut their heads off for fun like Muslims do. Beheadings is something Turks, Albanian Muslims, Bosnian Muslims, Mujahadeen and Ustashe Croats are known for, not Serbs.
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Each day is like another boxing match between voo-yo and SRP. The irony is that they don't realize that they have a lot more in common with each other than they think they have.
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Each day is like another boxing match between voo-yo and SRP. The irony is that they don't realize that they have a lot more in common with each other than they think they have.
Yeah, he's like Rocky:) Just keeps getting devastating punches, but refuses to back down.
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Each day is like another boxing match between voo-yo and SRP. The irony is that they don't realize that they have a lot more in common with each other than they think they have.
Ej bro..
Well I did not start with name-calling and thinks like that.
I said that I disagree with his statements, but I never insulted him personally or something like that. I did not call him an imbecile or stupid or something like that.
He is going to far. He even compares me to LDP?
I am not doing that. I am actually only trying to convince him that some of his statements can harm the Serbian cause.
Calming that Serbs conducted ethnic cleansing during the liberation of Serbia from Turkish oppression, harms enormously the Serbian cause. During the Balkan wars Serbs took advantage of the situation to restore their kingdom. They did not go to other territories and did not conquer anythink. The Muslims who wanted to accept the Serbian rule, were allowed to stay in Serbia. Their descantants still live in Serbia.
I also totally reject his claim that Radovan Karadzic carried our ethnic cleansing in Bosnia. During these hard circumstances when Karadzic is being sentenced in the Hague, that kind of claims enormously harm the Serbian cause.
The West claims that Karadzic conducted ethnic cleansing, but it has not been proved. Even Slobodan Milosevic was not declared guilty for something like that, so why saying something like that? Karadzic policy never intended to cleanse Muslim people and why saying something like that?
I guess Voojoo wants to attack and insult be at any cost, even by harming the Serbian cause.
I mean I am suppose to get mad on Voojoo and not contrary.
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Calming that Serbs conducted ethnic cleansing during the liberation of Serbia from Turkish oppression, harms enormously the Serbian cause. During the Balkan wars Serbs took advantage of the situation to restore their kingdom. They did not go to other territories and did not conquer anythink. The Muslims who wanted to accept the Serbian rule, were allowed to stay in Serbia. Their descantants still live in Serbia.
Start using your brain, you tool. I gave you all the arguments, you gave nothing to counter them.
The balded part is true, unfortunately. This is the consequence of that
(http://img683.imageshack.us/img683/8766/novipazar.jpg)
Islam will rule the world
Muslims supporters of Novi Pazar(Serbia) with the banner which says "Stadium Acif Effendi"
Acif Effendi was a Nazi helper in that part of Serbia, he killed a lot of Serbs.
(http://www.sandzaknews.com/slikao.php?image=slike/vijest-2380.jpg)
This is all happening in the area of Raska which we liberated in 1912. and allowed "loyal" Muslims to stay, as SRP says. We also liberated Kosovo in 1912. and allowed "loyal" Albanians to stay. We all know how that ended.
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http://serbianna.com/analysis/?p=117
The attempted satelization of FYROM by Turkey