JTF.ORG Forum
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Trumpeldor on May 18, 2007, 05:40:16 PM
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I think Chaimfan is getting a raw deal. Besides the rape comment and defense, what has he done in the past that warrants such a drastic action such as a temporary ban?
Has he been warned repeatedly? Please provide evidence that you did so.
On this issue, it would have been better if you gave him a clear warning before you did this. You should have said, in no uncertain terms, that you would ban him if he pressed the issue.
Instead, you wrote very ambiguously "This is disturbing to me and I am questioning your position here."
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Personal attacks? :P
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Personal attacks? :P
Attacks on who? Where was the clear warning of a forthcoming ban? Or does Chaimfan's history of quality posts not enable him to deserve the benefit of the doubt?
I understand the banning of FOTL, whether or not I personally agree with it. However, the burden of proof is on you to show that Chaimfan ought to receive the same treatment.
As of right now, I am highly skeptical that putting a ban on Chaimfan was the right move.
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I would like to add that Jeffguy has made me aware of a problem with Chaimfan since about 2 weeks ago. Though I haven't personally gone over the postings in question.
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I think Chaimfan is getting a raw deal.
Hello Trumpeldor, and good day to you.
Chaim fan has over a 1000 posts on this forum, and you're free to review as many of them as you like to get an indication of the theme of his most of his posts. I have personally witnessed his implacability, distrust of other members, sewing of discord, and vicious statements first hand.
This organization does attract "extreme" individuals for lack of a better word, but I've personally questioned how legitimate a member Chaimfan is judging by the frequency of these types of posts.
Jeffguy has shown keen judgment in my opinion on issues like these since being promoted to moderator, and I stand by his decision. Chaimfan has been temporarily banned and issued a warning, and based on his suggestion of rape and murder as a solution to the Arab problem, I think that Jeffguy's actions were more than fair.
Chaim has already clearly stated that he has no tolerance for that type of speech, and the moderators on the JTF forum shouldn't tolerate it either. You can state your piece here, but when you go over the top as Chaimfan did there are consequences.
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I think Chaimfan is getting a raw deal.
Chaim fan has over a 1000 posts on this forum, and you're free to review as many of them as you like to get an indication of the theme of his most of his posts.
I know what type of posts Chaimfan typically makes. I actually find myself agreeing with a lot of what he says and I have actually posted in support of many of his positions.
I have personally witnessed his implacability, distrust of other members, sewing of discord, and vicious statements first hand.
Is implacability a bannable offense? Is distrust of other members a bannable offense, given the inordinate amount of trolls we seem to attract? You may interpret it as "sewing of discord" but I view it as vigilance with the best interests of the forum in mind. You seem to think that Chaimfan has ulterior motives? Where is the proof?
This organization does attract "extreme" individuals for lack of a better word, but I've personally questioned how legitimate a member Chaimfan is judging by the frequency of these types of posts.
You're entitled to that view. But so is Chaimfan with respect to his views on other posters.
based on his suggestion of rape and murder as a solution to the Arab problem, I think that Jeffguy's action were more than fair.
If you think he is mistaken in his beliefs, why not have a rational discussion with him? Why not educate him? Why ban him? Sure his comments were extreme, but to be fair, a lot of extreme views are being propagated here. Where do we draw the line? If the line has been drawn here, Chaimfan at least deserved a fair warning-something he did not get.
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I would like to add that Jeffguy has made me aware of a problem with Chaimfan since about 2 weeks ago. Though I haven't personally gone over the postings in question.
Sounds like a personal feud. I feel I speak for most posters when I say that Chaimfan was loved!
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When was he banned? I didn't see it. Where is the post?
In the past, Chaim has said that Chaimfan SHOULD NOT be banned.
http://jtf.org/forum_english/index.php?topic=4751.30
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I dont' think he is banned yet. I don't think he should be banned but if he has any personal beefs with any other members both of those member should have it out privately on their emails instead of on the forum for all others to see. Perhaps Yacov might email the two of these fellows and find some sort of aimable outcome... We cannot go banning everyone whom we disagree with. Bannings should only be used for the most blatant anti-semites and other sub-human filth...
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I dont' think he is banned yet. I don't think he should be banned but if he has any personal beefs with any other members both of those member should have it out privately on their emails instead of on the forum for all others to see. Perhaps Yacov might email the two of these fellows and find some sort of aimable outcome... We cannot go banning everyone whom we disagree with. Bannings should only be used for the most blatant anti-semites and other sub-human filth...
I agree. If given the choice of repudiating his statement or facing a ban, I have no doubt that Chaimfan would have seen the wisdom in letting it go. Rather, I believe he was setup by not being given a clear, specific warning.
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Agreed. Trump... Oh by the way nice choice of name... very good...
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While I do not know that Chaimfan should have been banned. I do understand it. Jeffguy and I both were disgusted with comments Chaimfan made regarding hanging men in the streets, raping women and then executing them, and killing little kids.
It was the comments about raping women and then executing them that were entirely disturbing.
If this kind of speech is allowed here, then I will resign as a moderator immediately and JTF will lose me for sure. This is supposed to be a religious organization, and while I am not Orthodox I cannot fathom how anything in Chaimfan's posting remotely would be pleasing to HaShem.
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While I do not know that Chaimfan should have been banned. I do understand it. Jeffguy and I both were disgusted with comments Chaimfan made regarding hanging men in the streets, raping women and then executing them, and killing little kids.
It was the comments about raping women and then executing them that were entirely disturbing.
If this kind of speech is allowed here, then I will resign as a moderator immediately and JTF will lose me for sure. This is supposed to be a religious organization, and while I am not Orthodox I cannot fathom how anything in Chaimfan's posting remotely would be pleasing to HaShem.
He really said this? Doesn't he claim to be a christian?
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While I do not know that Chaimfan should have been banned. I do understand it. Jeffguy and I both were disgusted with comments Chaimfan made regarding hanging men in the streets, raping women and then executing them, and killing little kids.
It was the comments about raping women and then executing them that were entirely disturbing.
If this kind of speech is allowed here, then I will resign as a moderator immediately and JTF will lose me for sure. This is supposed to be a religious organization, and while I am not Orthodox I cannot fathom how anything in Chaimfan's posting remotely would be pleasing to HaShem.
This is all new to me and quite logical and moral thinking. Perhaps a warning by Yacov would be acceptable. Enough on this topic from Ol-MZ... You fellows will sort it out morally and logically I'm sure..
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He currently has a temporary ban, he is banned for one week, and he has been warned, it is not permanent yet.
The following are the reasons why he has been warned and temporarily banned:
http://jtf.org/forum_english/index.php?topic=4751.msg35909#msg35909
http://jtf.org/forum_english/index.php?topic=4751.msg35981#msg35981
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While I do not know that Chaimfan should have been banned. I do understand it. Jeffguy and I both were disgusted with comments Chaimfan made regarding hanging men in the streets, raping women and then executing them, and killing little kids.
It was the comments about raping women and then executing them that were entirely disturbing.
If this kind of speech is allowed here, then I will resign as a moderator immediately and JTF will lose me for sure. This is supposed to be a religious organization, and while I am not Orthodox I cannot fathom how anything in Chaimfan's posting remotely would be pleasing to HaShem.
You just blatantly contradicted yourself. You claim you don't know that Chaimfan should have been banned and then you go on to say that this type of speech is unacceptable to you.
In any case, you and Jeffguy do not speak for me, nor do you speak for the majority of the posters on this forum.
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He currently has a temporary ban, he is banned for one week, and he has been warned, it is not permanent yet.
http://jtf.org/forum_english/index.php?topic=4751.msg35909#msg35909
http://jtf.org/forum_english/index.php?topic=4751.msg35981#msg35981
BOLLOCKS! (I know you're British)
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While I do not know that Chaimfan should have been banned. I do understand it. Jeffguy and I both were disgusted with comments Chaimfan made regarding hanging men in the streets, raping women and then executing them, and killing little kids.
It was the comments about raping women and then executing them that were entirely disturbing.
If this kind of speech is allowed here, then I will resign as a moderator immediately and JTF will lose me for sure. This is supposed to be a religious organization, and while I am not Orthodox I cannot fathom how anything in Chaimfan's posting remotely would be pleasing to HaShem.
You just blatantly contradicted yourself. You claim you don't know that Chaimfan should have been banned and then you go on to say that this type of speech is unacceptable to you.
In any case, you and Jeffguy do not speak for me, nor do you speak for the majority of the posters on this forum.
That's not a contradiction, it simply seems to me to question whether the punishment fit the crime.
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You just blatantly contradicted yourself. You claim you don't know that Chaimfan should have been banned and then you go on to say that this type of speech is unacceptable to you.
In any case, you and Jeffguy do not speak for me, nor do you speak for the majority of the posters on this forum.
I actually did not contradict myself. Chaimfan could have been warned, and he could curtail some of the more extreme things he says in the future.
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While I do not know that Chaimfan should have been banned. I do understand it. Jeffguy and I both were disgusted with comments Chaimfan made regarding hanging men in the streets, raping women and then executing them, and killing little kids.
It was the comments about raping women and then executing them that were entirely disturbing.
If this kind of speech is allowed here, then I will resign as a moderator immediately and JTF will lose me for sure. This is supposed to be a religious organization, and while I am not Orthodox I cannot fathom how anything in Chaimfan's posting remotely would be pleasing to HaShem.
You just blatantly contradicted yourself. You claim you don't know that Chaimfan should have been banned and then you go on to say that this type of speech is unacceptable to you.
In any case, you and Jeffguy do not speak for me, nor do you speak for the majority of the posters on this forum.
That's not a contradiction, it simply seems to me to question whether the punishment fit the crime.
If you question whether the punishment fits the crime, then you do not fully 'understand' the banning as Dawntreader claimed he did.
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He currently has a temporary ban, he is banned for one week, and he has been warned, it is not permanent yet.
http://jtf.org/forum_english/index.php?topic=4751.msg35909#msg35909
http://jtf.org/forum_english/index.php?topic=4751.msg35981#msg35981
BOLLOCKS! (I know you're British)
Ok, what are you trying to say here? I'm just stating that facts of the matter, what does my being british have to do with it at all?
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He currently has a temporary ban, he is banned for one week, and he has been warned, it is not permanent yet.
http://jtf.org/forum_english/index.php?topic=4751.msg35909#msg35909
http://jtf.org/forum_english/index.php?topic=4751.msg35981#msg35981
BOLLOCKS! (I know you're British)
Ok, what are you trying to say here? I'm just stating that facts of the matter, what does my being british have to do with it at all?
That just symbolizes how I feel about it and you being British is simply a coincidence.
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He currently has a temporary ban, he is banned for one week, and he has been warned, it is not permanent yet.
http://jtf.org/forum_english/index.php?topic=4751.msg35909#msg35909
http://jtf.org/forum_english/index.php?topic=4751.msg35981#msg35981
BOLLOCKS! (I know you're British)
Ok, what are you trying to say here? I'm just stating that facts of the matter, what does my being british have to do with it at all?
Yeah, my grandfather is British!! :-*
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You just blatantly contradicted yourself. You claim you don't know that Chaimfan should have been banned and then you go on to say that this type of speech is unacceptable to you.
In any case, you and Jeffguy do not speak for me, nor do you speak for the majority of the posters on this forum.
I actually did not contradict myself. Chaimfan could have been warned, and he could curtail some of the more extreme things he says in the future.
Get off the fence. You clearly support the banning and are playing good cop/bad cop to enhance your appeal .
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I know what type of posts Chaimfan typically makes. I actually find myself agreeing with a lot of what he says and I have actually posted in support of many of his positions.
I have personally witnessed his implacability, distrust of other members, sewing of discord, and vicious statements first hand.
Is implacability a bannable offense? Is distrust of other members a bannable offense, given the inordinate amount of trolls we seem to attract? You may interpret it as "sewing of discord" but I view it as vigilance with the best interests of the forum in mind. You seem to think that Chaimfan has ulterior motives? Where is the proof?
Hello Trumpeldor, and good day.
I answered the question in my next sentence. Quoting, and replying to every statement destroys context, and is more appropriate for an argumentative exchange than a discussion.
It's context Trumpeldor.
None of these offenses are bannable offenses in and of themselves. But taking Chaimfan's history of posts in the context of his deplorable call for rape and murder is more than enough for a temporary ban in my opinion. And I don't believe that every act by a moderator here should be challenged by the forum members, which seems to be the case with the recent actions against FOTL, and Chaimfan.
This is clearly one of the most tolerant boards on the Internet, and it takes a lot to warrant disciplinary actions here. We shouldn't create the impression that there's a rift between the moderators and the users here, and I'm afraid threads like these do precisely that
This organization does attract "extreme" individuals for lack of a better word, but I've personally questioned how legitimate a member Chaimfan is judging by the frequency of these types of posts.
You're entitled to that view. But so is Chaimfan with respect to his views on other posters.
Context.
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It's context Trumpeldor.
None of these offenses are bannable offenses in and of themselves. But taking Chaimfan's history of posts in the context of his deplorable call for rape and murder is more than enough for a temporary ban in my opinion. And I don't believe that every act by a moderator here should be challenged by the forum members, which seems to be the case with the recent actions against FOTL, and Chaimfan.
This is clearly one of the most tolerant boards on the Internet, and it takes a lot to warrant disciplinary actions here. We shouldn't create the impression that there's a rift between the moderators and the users here, and I'm afraid threads like these do precisely that
Why are we using Chaimfan's history of posts against him? You seem to be a big fan of context. Shouldn't each offense be considered in context?
I believe that forum members should challenge every action by a moderator that they disapprove of. That is how we dialogue with each other. Since JTF is a civil rights organization, we are all about having a dialogue.
Personally, this is the only time I have taken issue with a decision by the moderators (or in this case, a single moderator). So it is not as if I am guilty of habitually causing a stir. On the Fruit situation, I felt conflicted, so I did not challenge anyone's decision.
It does not bother me if people get the impression of a rift. I am willing to forget about all of this if Chaimfan is duly reinstated. I would rather our future JTF'ers know that it is ok to challenge authority and let your voice be heard when confronted with injustice.
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He is only banned for a week, in a weeks time he will be back, if he wants to be.
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He is only banned for a week, in a weeks time he will be back, if he wants to be.
I will see to it that he is back by Sunday night.
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Last I knew, Allen-T and Yacov were the administrators on this forum, not Trumpeldor.
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Why are we using Chaimfan's history of posts against him? You seem to be a big fan of context. Shouldn't each offense be considered in context?
That's precisely what Jeffguy did. He took Chaimfan's post calling for rape and murder in the context of his other contributions here, and felt a week long ban was warranted.
I believe that forum members should challenge every action by a moderator that they disapprove of.
Feel free to post this destructive statement in the ASK JTF forum as well, and again, let Chaim Ben Pesach -- who seems to be the only voice you respect -- tell you what he thinks of that.
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Last I knew, Allen-T and Yacov were the administrators on this forum, not Trumpeldor.
Yacov does not support the decision, ftf.
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Why are we using Chaimfan's history of posts against him? You seem to be a big fan of context. Shouldn't each offense be considered in context?
That's precisely what Jeffguy did. He took Chaimfan's post calling for rape and murder in the context of his other contributions here, and felt a week long ban was warranted.
I believe that forum members should challenge every action by a moderator that they disapprove of.
Feel free to post this destructive statement in the ASK JTF forum as well, and again, let Chaim Ben Pesach -- who seems to be the only voice you respect -- tell you what he thinks of that.
You are distorting the meaning of context. If he was to have truly taken Chaimfan's statement in context, he would have realized that Chaimfan was merely attempting to be argumentative instead of evil. His use of 'context' was merely personal bias.
Again, I've already posted my unfiltered thoughts on the matter on the Ask JTF thread.
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You are distorting the meaning of context.
Trumpeldor,
Quite the contrary, it is you who hasn't not understood the real implications of context.
Regarding the harsh measure of banning, context does not mean taking a particular statement in the context of a particular thread; that, my friend, would be stepping over the line, and unfair. You don't seem to grasp that.
Context for such an extreme measure means taking a statement in the framework of someone's overall contributions, and jeffguy can more than easily make that case himself.
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You are distorting the meaning of context.
Trumpeldor,
Quite the contrary, it is you who hasn't not understood the real implications of context.
Regarding the harsh measure of banning, context does not mean taking a particular statement in the context of a particular thread; that, my friend, would be stepping over the line, and unfair. You don't seem to grasp that.
Context for such an extreme measure means taking a statement in the framework of someone's overall contributions, and jeffguy can more than easily make that case himself.
If one was taking in the "framework of someone's overall contributions", as you propose, there is even less justification for banning Chaimfan. If you recall even a single Ask JTF program, I think that you would concede that Chaim ben Pesach has characterized Chaimfan as astute, expressive, and a significant poster.
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I think what Chaimfan said was inappropriate. However, I don't think he should be banned.
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If one was taking in the "framework of someone's overall contributions", as you propose, there is even less justification for banning Chaimfan. If you recall even a single Ask JTF program, I think that you would concede that Chaim ben Pesach has characterized Chaimfan as astute, expressive, and a significant poster.
Indeed, and ChaimFan is worthy of those compliments. FOTL was also an extremely intelligent, and expressive poster who Chaim had remarked positively about, yet still he agreed that his banishment was warranted.
Chaim has the ability to see things in their proper context, and I believe he'll agree with the week-long banning of Chaimfan. I'm still waiting on you to put your money where your mouth is, and tell Chaim in the ASK JTF forum the same degrading things you've said about the moderators on this board.
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If one was taking in the "framework of someone's overall contributions", as you propose, there is even less justification for banning Chaimfan. If you recall even a single Ask JTF program, I think that you would concede that Chaim ben Pesach has characterized Chaimfan as astute, expressive, and a significant poster.
Indeed, and ChaimFan is worthy of those compliments. FOTL was also an extremely intelligent, and expressive poster who Chaim had remarked positively about, yet still he agreed that his banishment was warranted.
Chaim has the ability to see things in their proper context, and I believe he'll agree with the week-long banning of Chaimfan. I'm still waiting on you to put your money where your mouth is, and tell Chaim in the ASK JTF forum the same degrading things you've said about the moderators on this board.
I have nothing against you or any of the moderators as a person, UntilShilohComes. If people who have responsibility cannot take criticism, they should reconsider their job as a moderator or grow some thicker skin.
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Trumpeldor,
As for myself I'm not personally offended, or angry over your remarks, and we at JTF always invite criticism. I see you as a friend, and as long as you support JTF, which I honestly believe you do, I'll always view you as a brother. But it you can't take rebuttals and challenges to your criticism, I suggest you take heed to your own advice. You've leveled some very harsh criticisms, and I'd like those sentiments to be posted, uncut, in the ASK JTF Forum.
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Trumpeldor,
As for myself I'm not personally offended, or angry over your remarks, and we at JTF always invite criticism. I see you as a friend, and as long as you support JTF, which I honestly believe you do, I'll always view you as a brother. But it you can't take rebuttals and challenges to your criticism, I suggest you take heed to your own advice. You've leveled some very harsh criticisms, and I'd like those sentiments to be posted, uncut, in the ASK JTF Forum.
I don't want to make it seem that I am pushing those exact sentiments beyond what is required to meet the ends of my argument. I have made myself clear this afternoon. It is my hope that Chaimfan will be reinstated ASAP and that future episodes like this will not occur, due to a new framework for moderator decision-making.
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I get the feeling Chaim is going to spend about 20-30 minutes expressing his grievances on the forum before he even gets to our questions. I hope I'm wrong, but we'll see.
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I get the feeling Chaim is going to spend about 20-30 minutes expressing his grievances on the forum before he even gets to our questions. I hope I'm wrong, but we'll see.
What grievances should he have? Aren't the moderators supposed to be making his job easier?
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I get the feeling Chaim is going to spend about 20-30 minutes expressing his grievances on the forum before he even gets to our questions. I hope I'm wrong, but we'll see.
What grievances should he have? Aren't the moderators supposed to be making his job easier?
Yes, excellent point! I hope you're right.
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Being banned for a week is not the end of the world!
Maybe he can get a reduced ban - he should look up Paris Hilton's attorney. ;)
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Ok, this is Chaim Ben Pesachs forum, don't forget that. He himself said that he respects Chaimfan alot and said that he is a supporter of him on an ask jtf show about a month back. Why the hell has Chaimfan been banned if Chaim himself wants him here. I think certain moderators are trying to flex their muscles in the same manner as shvartzas when they are made managers over whites do. Quite shameful and I think only Yaacov and Jimmy should have the final say on who is banned.
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Ok, this is Chaim Ben Pesachs forum, don't forget that. He himself said that he respects Chaimfan alot and said that he is a supporter of him on an ask jtf show about a month back. Why the hell has Chaimfan been banned if Chaim himself wants him here. I think certain moderators are trying to flex their muscles in the same manner shvartzas when they are made mangers over whites do. Quite shameful and I think only Yaacov and Jimmy should have the final say on who is banned.
DownWithIslam, I commend you.
It has been a very lonely afternoon/evening on this forum for me, trying to defend our one and only Chaimfan. I pray that he is back by Sunday night for Ask JTF.
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Trumpledor, I don't think every moderator should be given authority to ban members. Many of the moderators are banning people based on their own beliefs when we are dealing with an organization here. Yacov menashe who started this forum and Jimmy should be the only ones banning people. I actually think Chaimfan is too moderate. He never made any death threats or anything, and he certainly hasn't jeaporadized this movement.
His posts are always interesting and he is never afraid to expose kappos and other beasts. If someone is not right wing enough, he should not be a moderator. If I were in control, the only sure ban would be if a Muslim comes on here.
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Trumpledor, I don't think every moderator should be given authority to ban members. Many of the moderators are banning people based on their own beliefs when we are dealing with an organization here.
I think many of the moderators truly believe they have the best interests of JTF at heart, but as we saw in the Fruit situation, it can polarizing fiasco and it appears that we have not learned our lesson.
Yacov menashe who started this forum and Jimmy should be the only ones banning people. I actually think Chaimfan is too moderate. He never made any death threats or anything, and he certainly hasn't jeaporadized this movement.
This would work. Or a new policy can be implemented for a centralized command, cooperation, and consensus. We are not even that big yet but it is needed!
His posts are always interesting and he is never afraid to expose kappos and other beasts.
You're right. He is a fearless and eloquent defender of JTF's ideals. Anyone who would argue the opposite is a fool.
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I always like Chaimfan questions. Why do you want to ban him!? ???
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Only administrators have the power to ban. Moderators cannot ban people. What do you suppose should be the correct way to deal with someone that advocates raping women and killing children? I am all for a second chance but people who believe that this behavior is acceptable, whether stated or not, are not people I for one want any association with, ESPECIALLY if they call themselves Christians.
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Only administrators have the power to ban. Moderators cannot ban people. What do you suppose should be the correct way to deal with someone that advocates raping women and killing children? I am all for a second chance but people who believe that this behavior is acceptable, whether stated or not, are not people I for one want any association with, ESPECIALLY if they call themselves Christians.
Exactly!!! If we condone that type of talk by forum members we bring ourselves down to the level of the very people we despise.
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Making comments like "kill all arabs/blacks", "Rape their women", etc, etc are NOT helpful. They make us all look bad and prevent the movement from growing. The average person looks at posts like Chaimfan's and thinks we're all nuts. Calling for mass killings is a breakdown of reasoning and shows an extreme lack of maturity. Especially about killing children and women. Why do you think Rabbi Kahane never once said things like this? He knew that they only harmed his ability to grow his movement. His harshest words meant only to send the muslim arabs out of Israel, not massacre them.
On a side note about Chaimfan, I detested the way he labelled virtually everyone who disagreed with his views a member of Revava or StørmFrønt. This was seemingly done only to cause problems and divisions. It showed weak reasoning his part.
I fully support Jeffguy's decision.
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Making comments like "kill all arabs/blacks", "Rape their women", etc, etc are NOT helpful. They make us all look bad and prevent the movement from growing. The average person looks at posts like Chaimfan's and thinks we're all nuts. Calling for mass killings is a breakdown of reasoning and shows an extreme lack of maturity. Especially about killing children and women. Why do you think Rabbi Kahane never once said things like this? He knew that they only harmed his ability to grow his movement. His harshest words meant only to send the muslim arabs out of Israel, not massacre them.
On a side note about Chaimfan, I detested the way he labelled virtually everyone who disagreed with his views a member of Revava or StørmFrønt. This was seemingly done only to cause problems and divisions. It showed weak reasoning his part.
I fully support Jeffguy's decision.
I have to agree with thunderbolt here. I also fully support jeffguys decision. As for now I understand the banning is temporary however if total banning is decided so be it. I was trying not to say much on this issue but when I read some of the posts referring to Chaimfan many of the things that bothered me about his posts are being said piecemeal by other members . This tells me that I am not alone in my opinion of Chaimfan's actions on the forum. I think that jeffguy is handling it exactly right in fact he is being lenient in the handling in my opinion. Not that it bothers me in the least but the way the new moderators are being ridiculed by some members is not right. They are all trying to do the job Jimmy and Chaim put them there to do. Just to put it on record this moderator is not here for popularity my responsibility is to JTF.
Lets let the ***ADMINISTRATORS*** put their heads together and come up with the right solution here and lets not argue among ourselves. As I said before Chaimfans ban is only temporary as of now.
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Last I knew, Allen-T and Yacov were the administrators on this forum, not Trumpeldor.
Surely Yacov Menashe Ben Rachamim, jsullivan, jeffguy and TorahZionist are the admins ???
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I don't know why, but I wrote Allen-T when I meant Jeffguy, I must have been half or more than half asleep...
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:laugh: LOL
and Yoel... don't forget Yoel...
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The comments Chaimfan made were violent and i found them disgusting BUT he should not be banned. However he should be clearly warned that those comments are unnesccery.
Look at the state of this Forum, theres a lingering atmosphere of tension due to people being banned recently...and the number of people that have been banned is quite a lot. However there are substantial reasons for all of these situations, they just need to be thought out more logically.
Regarding the banning of Fruit, i didn't want him to be banned and argued a bit with Allen-T about other things, i'm sorry if i annoyed you.
Chaimfan is extreme......but we also have ftf who isn't....Its all about the balance. Its what JTF needs. :)
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I always felt that Chaimfan was insencere.
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He has two sides. An extreme ruthless twist to his personality and a comical, polite and kind hearted side that changes throughout the day.
He is VERY christian.
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He has two sides. An extreme ruthless twist to his personality and a comical, polite and kind hearted side that changes throughout the day.
He is VERY christian.
Sarah, where do you get the idea you make such an assessment? I know I sound like I am attacking you sometimes, but I am not. It's just that you make really outrageous statements sometimes.
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Being two sided is quite unchristian...
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Being two sided is quite unchristian...
Can we cut the guy a break? We ban him and now we attack him?
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Sarah was saying that he is two sided and very christian, I was just pointing out that those two things are opposites. According to the Christian scriptures we should say what we mean and mean what we say, I think that precludes the idea of being two sided.
My comment was aimed at Sarah not Chaimfan.
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I want to make it clear about my statement to Sarah. I am not judging Chaimfan one way or another. I am simply saying Sarah is in no way qualified to make judgements about whether or not someone may or may not be a serious Christian.
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Sarah was saying that he is two sided and very christian, I was just pointing out that those two things are opposites. According to the Christian scriptures we should say what we mean and mean what we say, I think that precludes the idea of being two sided.
How about the fact that we are all fallible, flawed beings?
Chaimfan's flaw is that he pushes everything to an extreme and knows no boundaries. Should we help him or scorn him?
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I say that we should help him, but I believe that a short term ban is a way of helping him, we have to make him realise that some things are unacceptable, punishments are a way of doing that.
The fact that we are all fallable and flawed is central to the Christian mesage...
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One has to assume that if someone advocates raping women, they would probably really do it. This is not the thoughts/behavior of a "flawed Christian". It's the thoughts/behavior of someone evil. I get the impression there are alot of single men/boys around here. What is tolerated here in regards to women is really starting to trouble me.
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I say that we should help him, but I believe that a short term ban is a way of helping him, we have to make him realise that some things are unacceptable, punishments are a way of doing that.
The fact that we are all fallable and flawed is central to the Christian mesage...
A short term ban would have been ok had it been agreed upon the admins. Who am I to question Yacov and Jimmy? The fact of the matter is that the decision was unilateral. There was no consensus.
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One has to assume that if someone advocates raping women, they would probably really do it. This is not the thoughts/behavior of a "flawed Christian". It's the thoughts/behavior of someone evil. I get the impression there are alot of single men/boys around here. What is tolerated here in regards to women is really starting to trouble me.
Chaimfan is an evil person who wants to rape women?
C'mon.
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OR, for a softer stance, jail the whole immediate family and they would go under the category as prisoner as I had mentioned above.
I don't think supporting large hordes of Arabs (considering their "families" consist of nine or ten creatures per woman) at the largesse of the state in country-club prisons (because that's how Israeli prisons for Arab terrorists are) is much of a deterrent.
--Hang the men in the streets
--Rape the women and then shoot them
--Shoot the kids, because from about the age of 1 up they want to murder Jews too
I believe the above statements made by Chaimfan are completely normal for a person who is sick of Islam to say. Any if we don't heed Chaimfans warnings, we are going to be beheaded by the muslims. Wake up you fools, Chaimfan is telling you exactly what you need to hear. If you don't like this type of talk then I don't know why you ever came to this forum. Chaim Ben Pesach has clearly said what would happen to the Muslims when a Kahanist govt would be in power. I personally would never allow Jewish men to rape the muslim harlots because that is beastiality. I agree with everything else Chaimfan said. Notice, when Imerica came on here all you brave "Moderators" cowered before her. When you are kind to the cruel you will be cruel to the kind.
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Jeffguy PM'ed me a "warning" saying that he should ban me for being a "White Supremacist".
I am a Christian European nationalist and my political positions aren't going to change. The question whether a natural racial hierarchy exists is a matter of science, not faith. Everyone who has observed the behavior of the Negro race should know that it is at the bottom of that hierarchy.
I can't see how anybody could morally condemn racialist views as they have been shared by countless historical Christian and Jewish leaders, both religious and secular.
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I think pretty soon only jeffguy will be left on here if he has it his way. I know he will try and ban me if I say something to "Extreme" for him. If he does ban me I will just reregister under a similar username. Blocking my Ip address will be of no help as most of the time I log on with a sprint mobile broadband EVDO card which assigns a new ip with each login. Plus I will go to queens and personally tell Chaim to get rid of overaggressive moderators. Please lets go back to the system with only Yacov and Jimmy in charge. It is really bothering me that Chaimfan was kicked off here. Carlyle if all you did was make fun of blacks then Jeffguy had no business threatening you with a ban.
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I think pretty soon only jeffguy will be left on here if he has it his way. I know he will try and ban me if I say something to "Extreme" for him. If he does ban me I will just reregister under a similar username. Blocking my Ip address will be of no help as most of the time I log on with a sprint mobile broadband EVDO card which assigns a new ip with each login. Plus I will go to queens and personally tell Chaim to get rid of overaggressive moderators. Please lets go back to the system with only Yacov and Jimmy in charge. It is really bothering me that Chaimfan was kicked off here. Carlyle if all you did was make fun of blacks then Jeffguy had no business threatening you with a ban.
Yeah, I just posted a quote by 19th Century British PM Disraeli and argued a little about racial issues with babylonianjew.
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Chaimfan is a valued poster. He contributed a lot to this forum. However, I do support a temporary ban to calm him down a little bit since he has been making troubled statements for quite some time.
1. He is primarily the one responsible for dividing this forum a couple of weeks ago by personally attacking R' Ovadia Yosef that caused us to lose support of several religious members.
2. He actively tried to missionize one of our members to Christianity in a personal message.
3. In my memory (correct me if I am wrong) the guy likes to attack people and say things that turn people off from our movement. The comment about raping women was unacceptable and turns people away from our movement. The truth is, he actually believes in what he says. I think if he doesn't cool down he has the potential to be a very dangerous individual. It reminds me of Mordechai Levy. My father knew the guy as far back as the early 70's when Levy liked my father and tried to be his friend. He was clearly insane so my father would try to avoid the nut. Later on he got more insane and actually acted on his insanity by doing crazy things.
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Sarah was saying that he is two sided and very christian, I was just pointing out that those two things are opposites. According to the Christian scriptures we should say what we mean and mean what we say, I think that precludes the idea of being two sided.
How about the fact that we are all fallible, flawed beings?
Chaimfan's flaw is that he pushes everything to an extreme and knows no boundaries. Should we help him or scorn him?
The way I see it, Chaimfan is merely emulating the behavior of Chaim. So I don't know about that one.
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Sarah was saying that he is two sided and very christian, I was just pointing out that those two things are opposites. According to the Christian scriptures we should say what we mean and mean what we say, I think that precludes the idea of being two sided.
How about the fact that we are all fallible, flawed beings?
Chaimfan's flaw is that he pushes everything to an extreme and knows no boundaries. Should we help him or scorn him?
The way I see it, Chaimfan is merely emulating the behavior of Chaim. So I don't know about that one.
What are you talking about? Only Chaimfan's moniker emulates Chaim.
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OR, for a softer stance, jail the whole immediate family and they would go under the category as prisoner as I had mentioned above.
I don't think supporting large hordes of Arabs (considering their "families" consist of nine or ten creatures per woman) at the largesse of the state in country-club prisons (because that's how Israeli prisons for Arab terrorists are) is much of a deterrent.
--Hang the men in the streets
--Rape the women and then shoot them
--Shoot the kids, because from about the age of 1 up they want to murder Jews too
I believe the above statements made by Chaimfan are completely normal for a person who is sick of Islam to say. Any if we don't heed Chaimfans warnings, we are going to be beheaded by the muslims. Wake up you fools, Chaimfan is telling you exactly what you need to hear. If you don't like this type of talk then I don't know why you ever came to this forum. Chaim Ben Pesach has clearly said what would happen to the Muslims when a Kahanist govt would be in power. I personally would never allow Jewish men to rape the muslim harlots because that is beastiality. I agree with everything else Chaimfan said. Notice, when Imerica came on here all you brave "Moderators" cowered before her. When you are kind to the cruel you will be cruel to the kind.
Does the Bible teach making decisions based on feelings or Gods commandments? There is no shortage of verses that state that decisions and statements based on emotions are foolish and exemplify unbelief. How did I personally "cower" to Imerica? You said "ALL" moderators. Do you consider giving people a chance cowering?
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There is a story in the Bible, I believe it's in the Torah, where one of the Jewish leaders is about to go to war. God tells the leader to cut the troops in half. Then after this the leader is told to reduce the troops again by half. The reason is because God wants the Jewish people to lean on him, NOT THEIR OWN rage,numbers,anger,macho-wacho BS. God also does this so all observerers know that it is God who wins the battles, not man alone. You can be certain that if the Jewish leader in question was all full of rage and daydreaming about raping women he would have never heeded or even heard Gods commands and the Jews would have been defeated.
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Gideon I think.
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Shoftim.
To clear everything up, I'm just a moderator and I don't have the power to ban anyone.
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He wasn't banned permanently and calling for and then defending rape (even after a public warning) and the murder of children is definitely against the rules of the forum.
Let's not forget, he has also been pressuring Jewish members with Christianity in private messages, saying that Presbyterians are not Christians, arguing about the banning of FOTL insistently, calling posters curse words, dropping the f-bomb, using sexual connotations (like telling people to "sit on your cucumber"), AND I sent him warnings privately.
If I had to do it all over again, I would. I'm not here for a popularity contest. I'm here to make the right decisions for JTF and our future... and that's what I did.
Trumpeldor... you, obviously, like Chaimfan a great deal. You are a terrific poster but a little respect for the moderators would go a long way.
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jeffguy, I am also against missionizing. I don't think Chaimfan deserved to be banned as he always made pro Israel comments. he never supported arabs or anything. The killing of Muslim children is wonderful. They hate jews even when they are little. Chaim himself called them little cubs awhile back. There is nothing wrong with advocating the killing of little muslims, raping the women is not something I am in favor of.
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I know that and he should be let back on. Yacov, can't you reinstate his account?
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Do you know for a fact that Chaim and Jimmy are in favor of the ban. You are the creator of this forum so those two are the only people who you should even listen to. You are much higher on the totem pole than Jeffguy. You know that Chaim clearly supported Chaimfan before.
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I can but I don't want to get in trouble with Chaim, Jimmy, and Jeffguy. We saw what happened last time with Fruit.
Yacov. It is better to wait until you know what Chaim thinks. You can certainly tell him how you feel about it. I don't want you getting in trouble.
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I wonder why my account was deleted yesterday?
Was it because I was arguing with Jeffguy or because I was supporting JTF?
Judge for yourself: http://jtf.org/forum_english/index.php?topic=3837.75 (http://jtf.org/forum_english/index.php?topic=3837.75)
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P.S. I was not even warned. I did not think of myself as being so dangerous.
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Jeffguy is correct and an informed person. I trust his judgement.
Saint, after our interactions on the other thread I asked the Admin to keep an eye on you, as per a number of your posts which indicated, as I felt that you might have been one of those Stormfronters coming on here to create trouble by disguising oneself as a Jew.
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I want to make it clear about my statement to Sarah. I am not judging Chaimfan one way or another. I am simply saying Sarah is in no way qualified to make judgements about whether or not someone may or may not be a serious Christian.
Quite a while ago Chaimfan was telling me about christianity, what he believes to be the truth and what he seemingly practices, he positively spoke about christianity with belief its the truth. He has also explained he abides religiously to rules on relationships etc...
I'm not qualified to make judgments but from what i gather and assume he is a strong christian, so i correct what i said..
I assume Chaimfan is a strong christian.
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I want to make it clear about my statement to Sarah. I am not judging Chaimfan one way or another. I am simply saying Sarah is in no way qualified to make judgements about whether or not someone may or may not be a serious Christian.
Quite a while ago Chaimfan was telling me about christianity, what he believes to be the truth and what he seemingly practices, he positively spoke about christianity with belief its the truth. He has also explained he abides religiously to rules on relationships etc...
I'm not qualified to make judgments but from what i gather and assume he is a strong christian, so i correct what i said..
I assume Chaimfan is a strong christian.
There was a time long ago when I was involved with a "christian" church called Word Of Life. They preached the basic Christian message of salvation which I accepted. I was on fire, attended three services every Sunday, prayer meetings and their Bible school. I was preaching to everyone. Small problem though. Most of what they taught was wrong. The fact is some of what they taught was down right heresy. There is a promise in the Tanach that God will never leave his people in with false prophets. The true believers God will draw away from false prophets. I believe God allowed me to be among them for a season because I later used what I learned about them to counter-attack them while living in Europe. The whole time I was involved with this borderline cult I was also attending a Baptist church as well semi regularly. It was only after years of study of God's Word that I eventually came to understand how to rightly divide the Word. My point is that emotionalism isn't any indication that someone is truly committed to truth. Only that they are emotional about "something". God's Word is the deciding factor alone, regarding who is truly with him.
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Guys, I think we need to calm down.
Whether or not you agree with Chaimfan's banning is one thing. One thing we have to be careful about here is getting sued, or bullied by organizations like CAIR (Council on American Islamic Relations). These groups have deep pockets. If they ever see what Chaimfan wrote about raping Muslim women, you can be sure that JFT would either get sued, or that they would pressure our hosting company to shut us down. This happened to a friend of mine with his blog. My friend is right wing to the core, and he wrote a post about killing Muslim kids, where he linked to a sattire post on another blog on the same topic. Anyway, CAIR wrote to his hosting company, and my friend was promptly shut down.
So being that you all feel strongly about this situation, why not post a question to Chaim about this for the next Ask JTF show? Let's see what he has to say.
Meanwhile, that whole "rape the women and shoot them" thread needs to be removed, promptly.
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Of course and that goes from every human, simply because only God knows your intentions however when someone is emotional or passionate about something, its safe to say that are a strong believer because thats what they come over as, if they aren't then God will know. We have to make judgments in life. Its what allows us to make decisions.
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Lisa is right in calling for calm.
This all just makes the forum look foolish.
It is a one week ban - big deal!
Obviously Chaimfan said somethings which are considered over the line by the administrators.
It's a time out in which Chaimfan can think about the impact of what he posts on the forum.
I think we have to have faith in the administrators - Chaim has put his trust in their judgement.
Obviously he supports them 100% but is not afraid to let them know if and when he thinks they have made a wrong call.
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I propose that this topic be deleted, I really think that this discussion should never have taken place and should now be forgotten.
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I propose that this topic be deleted, I really think that this discussion should never have taken place and should now be forgotten.
ftf, you are a moderator after my own heart!
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I would delete it myself, but I'm not meant to moderate the general discussion board, and I don't want to be accused of power abuse.
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Yeah, a thread would only be started called "ftf" ::)
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Yeah, a thread would only be started called "ftf" ::)
;D ;D ;D
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Jeffguy is correct and an informed person. I trust his judgement.
Saint, after our interactions on the other thread I asked the Admin to keep an eye on you, as per a number of your posts which indicated, as I felt that you might have been one of those Stormfronters coming on here to create trouble by disguising oneself as a Jew.
Ah, MarZutra, MarZutra, you know that this is not enough to ban a member. This rather looked like someone could not argue honestly and used their authority to shut me up.
Whoever am I, how does it change the content of my words?
Plus, at the end, you literally agreed with almost everything I said. Now, who should be kept an eye on here?
You know why I did not reveal my being Jewish from the start? I wanted to see the cnahge in behaviour. And guess what, it worked.
Don't you think it is sad when your fellow Jews ban you?
Dont' you think that people that are fighting for truth should be able at least to face it?
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Ah, MarZutra, MarZutra, you know that this is not enough to ban a member. This rather looked like someone could not argue honestly and used their authority to shut me up.
Whoever am I, how does it change the content of my words?
Plus, at the end, you literally agreed with almost everything I said. Now, who should be kept an eye on here?
You know why I did not reveal my being Jewish from the start? I wanted to see the cnahge in behaviour. And guess what, it worked.
Don't you think it is sad when your fellow Jews ban you?
Dont' you think that people that are fighting for truth should be able at least to face it?
Dude are you for real? You make absolutely no sense whatsoever. I agreed with SOME of your postions NOT all. Your postions on some of the topics were that of an illinformed stormfronter which is why I logically asked for you to be watched. Your logic is ill based...
I still don't believe you are Jewish, because your ill handle on Torah and "progressive" understanding of Jewish History is that of an uninformed, Liberally educated child. I believe in banning fellow Jews as I feel it was proper for Yahuda haMaccabbi to kill the Jewish Hellenists that were ruining Eretz, so your logic does not hold any water whatsoever.
I most certainly feel that your last statement is severly valid but applies to the commentor not this commentee. I have supplied you logic, reason and even facts to many of your posts to which you either negated, insulted or switch topics. On other topics I happened to semi to largely agree with you...
Enough from me as I feel my IQ actually falling by delving in such talk...