JTF.ORG Forum
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Chaim Ben Pesach on December 25, 2011, 05:38:47 PM
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בס''ד
In some Orthodox Jewish sections of Israel, men and women were travelling separately on buses in order to avoid the temptation to think about or commit sinful acts. This has led to a campaign of anti-Torah hysteria and persecution by the self-hating Israeli Bolshevik news media. Now Bibi Netanyahu and the government are joining the anti-religious feminist lynch mob. This video explains that the real sexists are the media and the Erev Rav establishment who promote pornography, prostitution and immorality, and who exploit Jewish women who are treated like cheap pieces of flesh. The ultimate hypocrite Netanyahu speaks about defending women's rights when he cheated on his first wife and abandoned her for another woman. Torah Judaism honors, respects, loves and reveres Jewish women whose bodies and souls are sacred. It is Torah Judaism that truly treats women with the respect that they deserve.
Please "like", favorite and comment. It will only take a minute. Thank you.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wO2f-2jilbE
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I hope that the dotee Jews join our ranks. They will eventuality outnumber the secular self hating left.
Even as we speak those left wing kapos are attempting to change the ultra orthodox Jews and even tempt them away from their ways.
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Actually some of the "modesty police" are actually making things against Judaism and are trying to make extreme things. I don't agree with the secular on this, but more "religious" does not mean more correct as well.
Some of these extremists are actually fighting what they call "immodesty" and target Religious girls schools! http://www.rationalistjudaism.com/2011/09/terrorism-in-bet-shemesh.html
Soo definitly their is a war on extremism of both sides (Hilonim and some Haredim)
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i disagree, the ultra religious are making women feel uncomfortable by a man she doesn't know telling her what to do. These modesty police in my opinion should mind there own business and stop their religious coercion.
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Mingling of Men and Women: an Issue of Social Norms
Does the Torah mandate separate seating on buses or at weddings? Separate hours at supermarkets? Clearly not. Men and women sat mixed at the wedding of Rav Moshe Feinstein's daughter. A mehissa is, however, required during prayer.
http://machonshilo.org/en/eng/list-audio-shiurim/41-audiohalakha/322-mingling-of-men-and-women-an-issue-of-social-norms
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Mingling of Men and Women: an Issue of Social Norms
Does the Torah mandate separate seating on buses or at weddings? Separate hours at supermarkets? Clearly not. Men and women sat mixed at the wedding of Rav Moshe Feinstein's daughter. A mehissa is, however, required during prayer.
http://machonshilo.org/en/eng/list-audio-shiurim/41-audiohalakha/322-mingling-of-men-and-women-an-issue-of-social-norms
absolutely correct, the only time we need a mechiza is during prayers.hashem is giving these jews a challenge to concur their own impure thoughts and desires. We cant run away from tests that hashem brings to us. We must confront it.
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absolutely correct, the only time we need a mechiza is during prayers.hashem is giving these jews a challenge to concur their own impure thoughts and desires. We cant run away from tests that hashem brings to us. We must confront it.
Not exactly. The point is that people just socializing is normal and legit by Halacha (or according to Rav Bar-Hayim in this case, as well as Rav Moshe Feinstein and others) in places like weddings when people are sitting having a meal. Or just shopping in stores, this is NOT a green card for sins or anything like that (or tests). Everything has to be normal and not extreme (not to the left nor the right as the Torah says) that is what is taught.
Also this is talking about things like sitting and eating together, or just traveling in a bus together, obviously not going to clubs, or dancing together, or having women dress completely open with tank tops or things like that.
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These are the jackbooted stormtroopers that rape dissident Jewish girls when they are arresting them.
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im in the "mind your own business" crowd
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im in the "mind your own business" crowd
I agree. How i view modesty, is that their is a place for everything at the appropriate places and times. Tag mechir, who are we as jews to tell jewish women how to dress? Isnt that their own decission?
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These communists aren't bothered by women in Sh*tlamic nations being forced to wear burqas.
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I agree. How i view modesty, is that their is a place for everything at the appropriate places and times. Tag mechir, who are we as jews to tell jewish women how to dress? Isnt that their own decission?
Like I said and posted, the middle ground is the correct path. Their are extremists on one side and the other as well. I didnt suggest this with my post, but since you bring this up, yes their is always a standard in society. For example the same can be asked- who are the police to arrest people walking nude on the streets? This is just a lower standard. I'm not saying nor advocating the extreme or strictest enforced standard in society, but never the less Jewish women should know that wearing things like tight jeans and tank-tops is inappropriate. If they feel a little uncomfortable, then soo be it, they are supposed to.
And about telling- the main job should be left to the educators (Rabbis, teachers, parents etc.) but they should be telling them these things and not shy away.
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Not exactly. The point is that people just socializing is normal and legit by Halacha (or according to Rav Bar-Hayim in this case, as well as Rav Moshe Feinstein and others) in places like weddings when people are sitting having a meal. Or just shopping in stores, this is NOT a green card for sins or anything like that (or tests). Everything has to be normal and not extreme (not to the left nor the right as the Torah says) that is what is taught.
Also this is talking about things like sitting and eating together, or just traveling in a bus together, obviously not going to clubs, or dancing together, or having women dress completely open with tank tops or things like that.
Great points, tag. You are 100% right.
Somebody told me this was initiated because a young religious Jew spit at a woman sitting in the front if the public bus when the religious required that she sit in the back with the other women.
If this were true, I don't think the spitting was out of sexism. It would wrong and a type of assault. This being labeled as a sexist issue is inaccurate.
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Like I said and posted, the middle ground is the correct path. Their are extremists on one side and the other as well. I didnt suggest this with my post, but since you bring this up, yes their is always a standard in society. For example the same can be asked- who are the police to arrest people walking nude on the streets? This is just a lower standard. I'm not saying nor advocating the extreme or strictest enforced standard in society, but never the less Jewish women should know that wearing things like tight jeans and tank-tops is inappropriate. If they feel a little uncomfortable, then soo be it, they are supposed to.
And about telling- the main job should be left to the educators (Rabbis, teachers, parents etc.) but they should be telling them these things and not shy away.
You are correct in your theisis that telling is the job up for the parents rabbi's etc, end of the day she still has free will to do whatever she wants, thats how hashem created us to be. There is a definite need to maintain a sense of society standard, but thats up to society and majority rule in general. Personally I have no problem with women wearing not modest clothing{thats if hashem gave her beauty} lol.
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Like I said and posted, the middle ground is the correct path. Their are extremists on one side and the other as well. I didnt suggest this with my post, but since you bring this up, yes their is always a standard in society. For example the same can be asked- who are the police to arrest people walking nude on the streets? This is just a lower standard. I'm not saying nor advocating the extreme or strictest enforced standard in society, but never the less Jewish women should know that wearing things like tight jeans and tank-tops is inappropriate. If they feel a little uncomfortable, then soo be it, they are supposed to.
And about telling- the main job should be left to the educators (Rabbis, teachers, parents etc.) but they should be telling them these things and not shy away.
you are spot on correct, im probably gonna quote this on the hebrew forum.
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Great points, tag. You are 100% right.
Somebody told me this was initiated because a young religious Jew spit at a woman sitting in the front if the public bus when the religious required that she sit in the back with the other women.
If this were true, I don't think the spitting was out of sexism. It would wrong and a type of assault. This being labeled as a sexist issue is inaccurate.
thanks. Their is a problem with some "siccarim" who are doing things in the name of Halacha or Judaism, but what they represent and do is the antithesis of Judaism and Halacha.
Examples of these include like you said spitt at people (women) for not going to the back of the bus. Harass little Jewish girls for supposedly not being "modest", (and these are religious girls) with screaming of names such as "shiksa" and other vulgar words. The harassment and intimidation of Jewish owned stores, with them also breaking glass and damaging property.
These are sick people who do not represent Torah Judaism, but are using the word "Judaism" as if its representing them. and most of their targets are religious Jews and Haredim as well.
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I remember hearing a story of a group of the type of people you're describing spitting on an 8yo girl.
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I remember hearing a story of a group of the type of people you're describing spitting on an 8yo girl.
Maybe I'll make a new thread with these types of things, soo perhaps people can see what is NOT correct and not according to Halacha. Also something by the way that the leftist use to bash all religious Jews with. Exposing these types of things is good to get ride of in society as a whole and to show and contrast how we are against these type of things and what Judaism actually promotes and does not.
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בס''ד
1. If religious Jews in Israel want to have separate buses in their neighborhoods, that should be their right. The government, the news media and the secularists have no right to dictate to them how to run buses in their communities.
2. The sole purpose of this giant media story in Israel is to attack the Torah and to attack religious Jews. This is pure propaganda. The thousands of Jewish girls and women who are raped and sexually assaulted every year by Arab Muslim Nazis don't get any attention from the evil media and the corrupt politicians. But separate seating on a bus is turned into a national scandal.
3. The fact that one Jew spit on one Jewish girl has been made into a national scandal. While it obviously is wrong to spit on a Jewish girl, to blame all religious Jews for this one act by one person is absurd. This is the only physical incident the media could find. There is a saying in Hebrew: the exception proves the rule. The fact that this is the only incident they could find proves how extremely rare it is for religious Jews to do anything even remotely physical to Jewish women - unlike the Arabs who brutally attack Jewish women every day without any media condemnation.
4. The same self-hating traitors in the media who are responsible for the mass murder of thousands of Jews by Arab terrorists are the ones who are demagogically screaming the loudest about this one incident. Meanwhile these same traitors are deliberately encouraging Jewish girls to go with Arab Nazis through movies and television programs that glorify such disgusting relationships.
5. The goal of the media is to destroy all Torah Jewish values and morals. I am amazed at how quickly people fall for this. If the media succeeds, Israel will face a catastrophe, G-d forbid.
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It seems to me that this is another case of religion vs. state. The state is a hypocrite because religion is the sole reason for its existence; that is, everything we know about Israel comes straight from the Torah.
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I have noticed a rash of stories like these in the media recently. It seems like an all out attack on Torah values similar to the Greeks attempting to outlaw Torah during the story of Chanukah. When we light our Chanukakiahs we should remember to stand strong against these Hellenistic edicts. These too will pass...
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They are just like the leftists and feminazis in America that call asking a woman out on a date "sexual harassment" and opposing abortion "patriarchal", but worship the schvartzes who are responsible for 98% of rapes.
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2. The sole purpose of this giant media story in Israel is to attack the Torah and to attack religious Jews. This is pure propaganda. The thousands of Jewish girls and women who are raped and sexually assaulted every year by Arab Muslim Nazis don't get any attention from the evil media and the corrupt politicians. But separate seating on a bus is turned into a national scandal.
Also don't forget that women are more likely to be pro-Arab than men, as insane as it is.
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I wish they had separate seating for women in the USA, it would be a much safer environment. Maybe some one way and some another way, depending on people's preferences.
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I wish they had separate seating for women in the USA, it would be a much safer environment. Maybe some one way and some another way, depending on people's preferences.
Only if there were no negroes in the general vicinity.
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The so called "zealots" are mostly parasitic leftist anti-zionist charedim. I don't agree with what they are trying to do and I don't see why should we try to defend them considering they do nothing to defend Eretz Israel.
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i disagree, the ultra religious are making women feel uncomfortable by a man she doesn't know telling her what to do. These modesty police in my opinion should mind there own business and stop their religious coercion.
I agree. And the victims are not just seculars or religious zionists. Other haredim are also attacked by the modesty mobsters. They want to control everyone's life. They don't have the authority to tell people where to sit on a bus.
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As a secular Jew, I respect the Jewish tradition and religion, but some of thr Charedim treat their women like garbagr, I have seen it with my own eyes..
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As a secular Jew, I respect the Jewish tradition and religion, but some of thr Charedim treat their women like garbagr, I have seen it with my own eyes..
And some seculars treat "their women" like garbage. A general statement like that doesn't really get us anywhere.
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It is hard for me to believe that is very common. Throughout history Judaism has valued women more and treated them much better than just about all other religions.
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As a torah Jew, a fully agree with the concept of Tzniyut. However, how does one define Tzniyut? We must look to our Torah sages. I am by no means a the most learned person but some of what is being implimented seems Taliban like. I am troubled by what is going on.
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As a torah Jew, a fully agree with the concept of Tzniyut. However, how does one define Tzniyut? We must look to our Torah sages. I am by no means a the most learned person but some of what is being implimented seems Taliban like. I am troubled by what is going on.
You are correct. I believe the underlying issue is not "Tzniyut" but this is an excuse they use. In fact those girls were and are very Tzniyut by all standards of Halacha (and had they not been, still these are girls and not like they are protesting a strip club or something like that which is truly problematic).
And your comparison to Taliban like is also correct. Some (again let it be stressed this is a small sect of extremists) actually do wear burkas, or what you would call "Jerkas". these things are not even Halacha, in the case of Jurkas are against Halacha, yett to be more "modest" (But in actually it is not modest at all) they are covering up everything including the face. This is what happens when some people who do not know anything about Judaism come and make up their own rules in the name of Judaism. The solution (partly) is to actually know what is Halacha and what is NOT. When they come and speak in the name of Judaism the best answer is to actually show and follow what Judaism says.
(Jewish) Women weaking burka and strong condemnation by Rabbis of this. "Israel - Strong Ban from Rabbis Against Jewish Women Wearing a Burka "
http://www.vosizneias.com/61128/2010/07/29/israel-strong-ban-from-rabbis-against-jewish-women-wearing-a-burka
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If being Jewish is sexist I'm the fattest, dirtiest sexist pig on earth.
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Also by the way these ppl attack religious Zionists who celebrate and wave Israeli flags on Yom HaatzMaot and other such occasions in Beit Shemesh.
But also the fact that their is an uproar by the media precisely now, also is some what fishy as well as everything done by the leftists are.
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If being Jewish is sexist I'm the fattest, dirtiest sexist pig on earth.
What are you talking about? How are you equating "Being Jewish" with being "sexist"? And why are you giving that impression?
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What are you talking about? How are you equating "Being Jewish" with being "sexist"? And why are you giving that impression?
Feminazi jihadists call Mehadrin buses "sexism"
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Feminazi jihadists call Mehadrin buses "sexism"
Soo? "Mehadrin" buses are not necessarily "Jewish". They are not halahically needed to begin with. If their are those who want them and the buses are privately owned fine, but if those are against them doesn't make them against Judaism necessarily.
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Here are some links which discuss the Halachas and Minhagim of Tzniut:
http://www.yoatzot.org/index.php
http://www.chabad.org/multimedia/media_cdo/aid/1695175/jewish/Modesty-and-Borders.htm
http://www.chabad.org/search/keyword_cdo/kid/1590/jewish/Tzniut-modesty-in-dress-behavior.htm
http://ohr.edu/ask_db/ask_main.php/76/Q1/
http://www.nishma.org/Value.html
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Soo? "Mehadrin" buses are not necessarily "Jewish". They are not halahically needed to begin with. If their are those who want them and the buses are privately owned fine, but if those are against them doesn't make them against Judaism necessarily.
I find feminists who want to break down modesty barriers to be problematic...
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I find feminists who want to break down modesty barriers to be problematic...
Soo do I, but do you find those who supposedly are fighting for "modesty" to be problematic as well especially when they engage in measures that are not even according to Halacha?
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Soo do I, but do you find those who supposedly are fighting for "modesty" to be problematic as well especially when they engage in measures that are not even according to Halacha?
Yes, of course.... It is a chillul Hashem to make Judaism look wrong in the eyes of the Jewish people.
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As a torah Jew, a fully agree with the concept of Tzniyut. However, how does one define Tzniyut? We must look to our Torah sages. I am by no means a the most learned person but some of what is being implimented seems Taliban like. I am troubled by what is going on.
I agree 100%. Tzniyut is really important. But there are "activists" who are trying to expand and create anew the parameters that define it, and they want to impose it on the entire society. There was never any problem with buses mentioned by any great poskim when public transportation first came about. That is the first clue to me that these reformist "innovators" calling themselves ultra orthodox are anything but defenders of tradition or the faith.
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בס''ד
1. If religious Jews in Israel want to have separate buses in their neighborhoods, that should be their right. The government, the news media and the secularists have no right to dictate to them how to run buses in their communities.
But religious Jews don't "run the buses." They are customers like everyone else is. They did not buy ownership of Egged, nor did they create their own buslines that I am aware of. So how can they take the currently existing lines, which have their own policies everyone is used to and now, as customers, force them to change, and force all the customers to behave as they wish them to behave? They can't!
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Here are some links which discuss the Halachas and Minhagim of Tzniut:
Yea, you speak of minhag. But certain askanim are trying to create their own minhagim which never existed before (an oxymoron). They represent a very serious threat within the Orthodox community that desperately needs to be stopped.
Now that the media is highlighting these thugs as an attack on the entire religious world, they are causing a knee-jerk reaction, similar to the one exhibited by Chaim, that plays directly into the media's hands. The media and leftist elite, KNOW what will destroy the religious, orthodox community. They know it is the enemies within (askanim) who are trying to impose modesty, stringencies, bannings, and other dictates through the use of force and mafioso tactics. They, the media and elites, are trying to get the overall religious population to react defensively, by putting us on the defense by attacking us all, so that we will not vigilantly combat our internal problems, but instead point to antisemitism from outside forces and thereby ignore the problems within which will only fester and grow and lead to our destruction, God forbid. That is why the media is using stories like this, but then throwing in extra rhetoric and "analysis" that condemns entire populations and all the religious Jews as well as Judaism itself. So that we take the sides of the thugs within our midst - that is a counterproductive and self-destructive route to take, and it's what they want us to do. But unfortunately it is one that the frum community is all too accustomed to taking because of constant barrage of attacks from the outside and the constant need to defend the religious point of view, religious life, religious individuals, religious communities. This is truly tragic.
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I find feminists who want to break down modesty barriers to be problematic...
But the barrier was never there in the first place? Someone else is trying to install a NEW barrier, and people who don't want it are reacting negatively, as any reasonable person would expect to happen. No one is going to like having such things imposed on them. So how exactly are they "breaking down barriers" which never existed?
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Here is a video example from a few years ago, of askanim trying to manipulate Rav Eliashiv. It is askanim who are the ones that want to create new modesty codes and impose them on people by force. They are not esteemed talmidei chachamim or respected leaders. They are not even known! Here Rav Eliashiv refutes them and tells them plainly he has no authority to issue such a code.
http://www.rationalistjudaism.com/2009/05/rav-elyashiv-on-modesty.html
I post this example because I literally watched the video alongside my Talmud rabbi, when it was first circulated on the internet. He found this video very entertaining, and he told me that this is how they try to convince great rabbis to take action that is not warranted, and that similar things happen all the time. There are probably other videos floating around (maybe the ones about sheitles from india, lol).
So who is it that you agree with? Rabbi Eliashiv? Or some 2-bit "activist" that wants to control every detail of your life? Your choice, of course.
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But the barrier was never there in the first place? Someone else is trying to install a NEW barrier, and people who don't want it are reacting negatively, as any reasonable person would expect to happen. No one is going to like having such things imposed on them. So how exactly are they "breaking down barriers" which never existed?
When women want to dress immodestly and mingle with observant Jews. Are you suggesting there is no requirement for women to keep tzniut? Is this what the Rabbi is claiming? It doesnt take a Talmid Chocham to realize that there are laws of Tzniut, and that it is a commandment of Torah for women to be modest. When women attempt to daven alongside the men at the Kotel this is a form of feminism which is destroying tzniut. When women want to wear the clothes that men wear this is a violation of Torah. Yes, I agree you will find a variety of Rabbis who interpret these commandments with a range of opinions.... But do you think it is OK for a woman to dress immodestly and attempt to seduce a religious man?
What barriers are you suggesting never existed? There are numerous halachic opinions which indicate that modesty is a commandment for women. The Talmud is also filled with evidence that some of the sages never looked at other women {other than his wife}.
I am not justifying what these extremists did... I am just explaining why I feel that feminism is leading to destruction of Torah principles...
Here is a good discussion of tzniut...
http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/1248044/jewish/Who-Decides-What-is-Modest.htm
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Are you suggesting there is no requirement for women to keep tzniut?
I know you asked him and not me, but I will answer for him before he answers and others get the wrong impression of his words-
NO. He did not say nor imply that in any way. He is talking about the extreme measures being imposed by some.
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I know you asked him and not me, but I will answer for him before he answers and others get the wrong impression of his words-
NO. He did not say nor imply that in any way. He is talking about the extreme measures being imposed by some.
Thank you.... I hoped I misunderstood that... I will say again I have not reviewed this incident... But I have a feeling that I will have to in order to speak with any understanding...
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When women want to dress immodestly and mingle with observant Jews.
WHAT?!? This does not happen on an EGGED BUS. Perhaps you should take a trip to Israel and actually ride on a bus to see what goes on there. Sitting next to a man or a woman is not "mingling" and it's not immodest!
Are you suggesting there is no requirement for women to keep tzniut?
:o
No, so why are you putting words in my mouth that I never said?
I actually said THE OPPOSITE somewhere in this thread. I replied to nekama agreeing with him that the laws of tzniut are very important.
Is this what the Rabbi is claiming? It doesnt take a Talmid Chocham to realize that there are laws of Tzniut,
So you are defending his behavior in front of Rav Eliashiv, and you think he knows better than Rav Eliashiv? LOL.
But do you think it is OK for a woman to dress immodestly and attempt to seduce a religious man?
This is like asking me, "do you think it's ok to eat pig?"
What do you think, muman? Come on, get serious here. Please.
What barriers are you suggesting never existed?
Barriers on buses. There aren't any. Go to Israel and ride a few buses, then you will know like I do. The subject in this thread has been about buses. You replied about buses, that some woman is trying to break down barriers there. I replied back to you that no barriers exist on buses. Please do not create smoke and mirrors or create confusion here. Just stick to the points being discussed.
When you reply to a discussion about buses in particular and then state something very vague and general about feminism in general and how evil women are trying to undo traditional customs and traditional societal mores, this is a form of obfuscation. Because your response is not about buses, it's just a general point, set up as a straw man. I'm not disagreeing to some general speculations about feminists. I'm disagreeing with you if you are suggesting that those trying to forcibly separate genders on buses are simply "upholding barriers" (which never existed), and those who refuse to comply are "breaking down barriers." So, are you saying that, or aren't you?
Your reply was to Ron's statement about 'mehadrin buses,' so that implies that you think people who oppose bus segregation are breaking down barriers. Let me know if I am correct or incorrect about what you are saying.
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"do you think it's ok to eat pig?"
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I was not talking about the buses when I said that women are breaking down barriers. Indeed I did bring up the bus issue in another thread because a 'Rosa Parks' made the news recently by not respecting the request on a bus to move.
I do not suggest that all buses require separation but I do respect those who would like to avoid the contact if possible. I thought that there could be a way to satisfy all parties. I believe the Rabbis recently said that it was permissible for private buses to cater to those who want to ride without seeing women.
I want to protect the ability for men to be able to avoid being tempted to think thoughts which lead to sin. I know you don't agree with me on these laws but there exist a lot of Jewish law to prevent contact between the sexes, and a lot of sages whose wisdom indicate that such thoughts are not good for the soul of a Jew. But leaving that all aside I agree that Jews cannot force observance on those who don't know or have not learned the Jewish ways. I do not suggest that everyone can be expected to respect those who want to keep such things from occurring.
As you saw from my response to Tag Mahir I was satisfied with his explanation of what you said. You may have more knowledge of what happened but that doesn't necessarily give you permission to act in such a hostile manner with me. I am not your enemy and I do not seek to discredit your opinion...
I will add that observance of these laws may be a strict interpretation but still I respect that opinion..
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Here is what AskMoses says on the topic of men looking at women:
http://www.askmoses.com/en/article/405,81303/Why-do-very-religious-Jewish-men-avoid-looking-at-women.html
Why do very religious Jewish men avoid looking at women?
by Rabbi Baruch Emanuel Erdstein
Every ism in the world acknowledges the power of sexuality. Every spiritual tradition thus demands of its spiritual masters either complete self-denial or the channeling of one's sexual energy in one way or another. Unlike other cultures, in which a select few remove themselves from the general society in order to attain "perfection," Judaism encourages each one of us to not only aspire to be a spiritual master in our own right, but to do so within a productive worldly context. But because the holy creative potential of sexuality is so great, it is that much more susceptible to perversion and must be carefully guarded.
The root of all aspirations for holiness begin with sanctifying the mind, and more than any other sense, that of sight has the most influence upon one's thoughts.
For a person who has come to develop his spiritual stature, having refined his sexual energies, it is that much more apparent that sights which might distract one's spiritual focus are to be avoided, even at great expense. Especially in modern society, where so few are attuned to the holy creative power of sexuality, often dressing immodestly (or even intentionally provocative!), many choose to protect themselves by not even glancing in the direction of a strange women.
This should not be taken as a sign of arrogance or disdain. However "unfriendly" it may appear to someone less familiar with the importance Judaism stresses upon guarding our sexuality, great respect is due to those who maintain their steadfast commitment to their spiritual path.
It should be noted that Halachah does not require a man to turn away his eyes at the sight of a woman. However, it is forbidden for a man to stare at a woman other than his (prospective) wife.
From the Daf Yomi:
Sanhedrin 75
http://www.dafyomi.co.il/sanhedrin/halachah/sn-hl-075.htm
1) THE ISUR TO LOOK AT WOMEN (a) Gemara
1. Once, a man was eyeing a woman, and he became sick from desire for her. Doctors said that his only cure is if he will have relations with her.
2. Rabanan: It is forbidden, even if he will die.
3. Doctors: Let her stand naked in front of him (perhaps this will help)!
4. Rabanan: It is forbidden, even if he will die.
5. R. Yakov bar Idi or R. Shmuel bar Nachmani said that she was married. The other said that she was Penuyah (single); nevertheless, Chachamim were stringent because it would have been embarrassing to her family, or to preserve the Kedushah of Benos Yisrael.
6. Avodah Zarah 20a (Beraisa): R. Gamliel was in Har ha'Bayis, and he saw a beautiful Nochris. He said "Mah Rabu Ma'asecha Hash-m."
7. Question (Beraisa): "V'Nishmarta mi'Kol Davar Ra" - one may not look at a beautiful woman, even a Penuyah, or at a married woman, even if she is ugly. One may not look at a woman's colored clothing.
8. Answer: He saw her (suddenly) when he turned a corner.
9. Shabbos 64a (Tana d'vei R. Yishmael): The soldiers who defeated Midyan needed a Korban to atone for pleasure from seeing forbidden women.
10. (Rav Sheshes): The Torah lists external Tachshitim (e.g. rings) with inner Tachshitim (girdles) to teach that one who looks (for pleasure) at a woman's pinky needs atonement like one who looks at her Ervah.
11. Berachos 24a: If two are sleeping on a bed, each may turn his head away to say Keri'as Shema, even if their buttocks touch the other!
12. This supports Rav Huna, who says that buttocks are not Ervah.
13. Support #2 (Mishnah): A woman can sit naked and take Chalah (with a blessing), for she can cover her Ervah (even though her buttocks are exposed).
14. Rejection: The case is, her buttocks are recessed in the ground.
15. (R. Yitzchak): An exposed (square) Tefach of part of a woman's body (that should be covered) is Ervah.
16. He need not forbid looking at it. Even gazing even at a woman's finger is like gazing at her Ervah! Rather, one may not say Keri'as Shema facing his wife if a Tefach is exposed.
17. (Rav Chisda): A woman's thigh is considered Ervah.
18. (Rav Sheshes): A woman's hair is considered Ervah.
(b) Rishonim
1. Rambam (Hilchos Isurei Bi'ah 21:2): One may not gaze at the beauty of a (woman forbidden due to) Ervah. One who does is suspected of Arayos. If he does so for pleasure, he is lashed mid'Rabanan. Looking even at the pinky for pleasure is like looking at the place of Ervah.
2. Rambam (ibid. 21): One may not look at women hanging up laundry. It is even forbidden to look at colored clothing of a woman he recognizes lest he come to have thoughts.
i. Ba'al ha'Ma'or (18a): One may not look at a naked woman, even in a case of mortal danger. If she is married, this is letter of the law. One may transgress Arayos when the Me'anes (one who threatens to kill him if he does not consent) seeks his own pleasure.
ii. Rebuttal (Milchamos Hash-m): Chachamim did not allow the girl to help cure the man, even though he intended for his own benefit!
iii. Hagahas ha'Bach (10): The Ba'al ha'Ma'or forbids when one wants to benefit from the Aveirah itself. Also Chidushei ha'Ran (Pesachim 25b DH v'Hevi'u and Nimukei Yosef (Bava Kama 43b) distinguish like this.
iv. Suggestion: One must forfeit his life rather than benefit from Ervah, e.g. to go to a beach where women are not covered properly.
v. Rebuttal (Igros Moshe EH 1:56): This is unlike the Ba'al ha'Ma'or's case. There, he wanted to benefit from Ervah to cure his lust for sin. This is worse than one who seeks to save himself from a Me'anes. One may not look at her naked to cure himself, even though it is not a concrete Isur, but if he was threatened 'look at her or be killed', perhaps it is permitted, since he need not touch her. The Ramban could admit, for it is not a concrete Isur. Without intent for pleasure, it is a light Isur; even touching, hugging and kissing have no Lav or lashes then Shach (YD 157:11). Also, the Isur Arayos of looking is like the case in Sanhedrin, when she is brought for him to look at her naked. When he goes to where women are naked, this is a different Isur of bringing himself to Hirhur, which could lead to a seminal emission. (One must forfeit his life only for Arayos.)
3. Rashba (Berachos 24a DH v'Ha d'Omar): The Rif did not mention an exposed Tefach, thigh, or hair (regarding Kri'as Shema). The Ra'avad says that the Rif holds that since we said that buttocks are not Ervah, all the more so these. The Ra'avad himself says that we are not concerned for buttocks because they do not distract a man.
i. Beis Yosef (OC 75 DH Kosav ha'Rashba): The Rambam does not mention these regarding Kri'as Shema. It seems that he holds that they are forbidden to hear or see; the Isur was not said regarding Shema. L'Halachah, we hold like the Rambam, but l'Chatchilah one should be careful at the time of Shema.
4. Yere'im (45): Chachamim warned not to look at Arayos; an Asmachta is "guard yourself from every evil matter." The soldiers needed Kaparah for Hirhurim.
5. Yad Ramah (Bava Basra 164:52): The Aveirah of Hirhurim is even concerning a Penuyah.
6. Kolbo (64 DH ha'Megale'ach): One who transgressed Arayos or spilled his seed must be extra careful to avoid anything that causes Hirhurim, e.g. looking at a women's face, or the areas near the Ervah or breasts, or her clothing even on the wall, or have any thoughts of women other than his wife.
(c) Poskim
1. Shulchan Aruch (EH 21:1): One must distance himself very very much from women. One may not look at an Ervah's beauty. Looking even at the pinky for pleasure is like looking at the place of Ervah. It is forbidden even to see her hair. One who does any of these is lashed mid'Rabanan.
i. Beis Yosef (DH Kasuv b'Orchos, citing R. Yonah): The Torah forbids looking at a married woman - "v'Lo Sasuru... v'Acharei Eineichem". Kesuvim forbid looking at a Penuyah - "Bris Korati l'Einai u'Mah Esbonen Al Besulah." One who withholds his eyes from looking will merit to behold the Shechinah, Midah k'Neged Midah - "v'Otzem Einav me'R'os b'Ra; ...Melech b'Yafyo Techezenah Einecha" (Vayikra Rabah 23:13). The Torah forbids thinking even about a Penuyah - "V'Nishmarta mi'Kol Davar Ra" - do not have thoughts during the day, for they lead to Tum'ah at night.
ii. Beis Shmuel (2): The Rambam forbids looking at a married woman only mid'Rabanan. All agree that looking at a Penuyah is forbidden from Kesuvim, and that the Torah forbids Hirhur even about a Penuyah.
2. Shulchan Aruch (ibid. 4): One may look at Ishto (his wife) Nidah, even if it is pleasurable. Since she will be permitted later, he will not sin.
i. Source (Beis Yosef DH v'Chen): Shabbos 64b permits a Nidah to adorn himself lest she become repulsive to her husband. We infer that he may look at her.
3. Shulchan Aruch (OC 75:1): One who faces an exposed (square) Tefach (in a place that is normally covered) of a woman may not say Shma.
i. Question: At all times it is forbidden to look even at the pinky!
ii. Answer (Bach DH Tefach): At other times it is forbidden only if he intends to look, for then he gets pleasure.
iii. Question: This implies that one may see areas normally exposed without intent for pleasure. If so, why didn't the Gemara answer that R. Gamliel did not intend for pleasure?
iv. Answer (Igros Moshe OC 1:40): R. Gamliel blessed 'how great are Your works', i.e. he got pleasure. Therefore, we needed to answer that he turned a corner and had no time to close his eyes. One must always strive to avoid looking at women, lest it be pleasurable. When walking in the street one should try to look down unless this would make him prone to injury.
4. Shulchan Aruch (YD 195:7): When one's wife is Nidah, he may not look at her heel or parts that are normally covered. He may look at places that are normally exposed even if it is pleasurable.
See also Baba Basra:
http://www.dafyomi.co.il/bbasra/halachah/bb-hl-016.htm
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I want to protect the ability for men to be able to avoid being tempted to think thoughts which lead to sin. I know you don't agree with me on these laws but there exist a lot of Jewish law to prevent contact between the sexes, and a lot of sages whose wisdom indicate that such thoughts are not good for the soul of a Jew. But leaving that all aside I agree that Jews cannot force observance on those who don't know or have not learned the Jewish ways. I do not suggest that everyone can be expected to respect those who want to keep such things from occurring.
As you saw from my response to Tag Mahir I was satisfied with his explanation of what you said. You may have more knowledge of what happened but that doesn't necessarily give you permission to act in such a hostile manner with me. I am not your enemy and I do not seek to discredit your opinion...
Muman, no offense dude but there have been many times that you have appeared hostile on this forum, both to Jews and to Gentiles and on occasion even Chaim himself. You have tried to discredit other peoples' opinions. I really don't need to provide examples. Maybe sometimes you have been legitimately upset but at other times, antagonizing has almost appeared to be a game for you. Tag and KWRBT are very religious Jews and I'm sure that they are a whole lot like you, so I'm not sure why there would be a conflict with them. I don't see anybody here defending immodesty in any way, certainly not them. I think you need a fresh start with them.
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Muman, no offense dude but there have been many times that you have appeared hostile on this forum, both to Jews and to Gentiles and on occasion even Chaim himself. You have tried to discredit other peoples' opinions. I really don't need to provide examples. Maybe sometimes you have been legitimately upset but at other times, antagonizing has almost appeared to be a game for you. Tag and KWRBT are very religious Jews and I'm sure that they are a whole lot like you, so I'm not sure why there would be a conflict with them. I don't see anybody here defending immodesty in any way, certainly not them. I think you need a fresh start with them.
Thank you for the opinion but I am sure that we are all on the same page. Having a debate as to what extent tznuit goes and the wisdom of the Talmud is just something I like to do. I hope it is not seen as antagonism against them.
To each of you I extend apology if Axl is correct that it appears I am contradicting what you say.
I have said, and I'll say again, that extremism is a problem. And there have to be a normal found among the Jewish people as to where we are all holding. I do not expect everyone to understand the level which I aspire to reach. I just present the material which I have learned after asking questions about this issue.
As I said personally I had problems with 'looking at women' which apparently my ex-wife had problems with. I did not keep many of these laws and I saw the destruction which occurred as a result.
The problem is not the womens fault at all and I hope my opinion is not called 'misogynist' as I am sure some are thinking. I fully respect the strong Jewish woman, as we describe the perfect woman in the traditional song Eishah Chayil...
I am not seeking conflict. I respect both KWRBT and Tag and I hope that they respect me also...
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I also must admit that since I am a recent Baal Teshuva I have had experiences where I shared hotel rooms with more than one woman {friends} but we did not share beds.... I am not the most pure when it comes to keeping the laws of separation but I do try to keep what I can. As I said I try to avoid being in a room alone with a woman behind closed doors... This is a basic law of Yichud...
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I am not seeking conflict. I respect both KWRBT and Tag and I hope that they respect me also...
I do, and don't worry I don't get offended debating.
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do not suggest that all buses require separation but I do respect those who would like to avoid the contact if possible.
contact?
I thought that there could be a way to satisfy all parties. I believe the Rabbis recently said that it was permissible for private buses to cater to those who want to ride without seeing women.
What private buses are there? The incidents are taking place on public buses. There are also some rabbis who thought egged buses should be switched to separate seating, but egged does not agree to that.
I want to protect the ability for men to be able to avoid being tempted to think thoughts which lead to sin. I know you don't agree with me on these laws
Wrong. I agree on the actual laws. Not new made-up stringencies which have nothing to do w the subject.
but there exist a lot of Jewish law to prevent contact between the sexes,
bus seating was never one of them. Are you a reformist? CONTACT does not happen from mixed bus seating, and in fact the issue proponents of separate seating are pushing is not CONTACT but actually that they will be tempted to LOOK at women.
Did you know that if women sit in the back of the bus, men can still be tempted to look at them from a little bit in front? Did you know men could stare at women who are at the bus stop while the bus pulls up? Did you know men could still watch the women as they get on the bus?
You cannot ban temptation or ban improper men. If one cannot control himself, then do not go out and do not walk on the street - don't try to abuse everyone else.
and a lot of sages whose wisdom indicate that such thoughts are not good for the soul of a Jew.
what thoughts do you refer to and how do we ban thoughts? How can seating in halves of buses prevent thoughts?
As you saw from my response to Tag Mahir I was satisfied with his explanation of what you said. You may have more knowledge of what happened but that doesn't necessarily give you permission to act in such a hostile manner with me. I am not your enemy and I do not seek to discredit your opinion...
. I know you are not my "enemy" but this is disingenuous. You very often manage to morph what I'm saying into something completely different and then act like I am opposed to basic laws of Judaism by putting words into my mouth that I did not say. How can you not expect a bit of hostility in response to that, especially when it happens so many times. Quite frankly I really tried to limit hostility in my responses and actually I called upon you to get serious rather than to belabor what you were doing, how it was wrong, etc (or to ridicule it God forbid). So what did you find hostile?
I will add that observance of these laws may be a strict interpretation but still I respect that opinion..
I don't respect those who try to force it on others. Religious Jews like you and me are also their victims, not just some chiloni or feminista.
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Just as a btw, I am seeing on facebook that the media is having success because some people are lashing out against all religious Jews due to the actions of the thugs. I got into a long argument with one lady who was mixing up all sorts of issues into one and mixing the thugs up with all haredim (even confusing one issue -women singing to the army- that deals with religious zionists, not haredim) just like the media is using these stories to conflate all religious and defame them all. Very terrible situation
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Just as a btw, I am seeing on facebook that the media is having success because some people are lashing out against all religious Jews due to the actions of the thugs. I got into a long argument with one lady who was mixing up all sorts of issues into one and mixing the thugs up with all haredim (even confusing one issue -women singing to the army- that deals with religious zionists, not haredim) just like the media is using these stories to conflate all religious and defame them all. Very terrible situation
Doesn't this prove that Chaim's assessment is completely correct?
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Soo? "Mehadrin" buses are not necessarily "Jewish". They are not halahically needed to begin with. If their are those who want them and the buses are privately owned fine, but if those are against them doesn't make them against Judaism necessarily.
What? Even Gentiles such as the Japanese have understood that over crowdedness is a real problem and made a seperation between the sexes in their trains. Separation in over-crowded buses is nothing but common sense, to prevent very serious Halachic, social and public problems that can happen in public places.
There's no Halachic difference between separation in buses and separation in public events held both by the Haredim and the religious Zionists. Why don't you wage Jihad against them as well?
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It's the same as saying that being against separation in public bathrooms is not against Judaism. Even Gentiles such as the Japanese have understood that over crowdedness is a real problem and made a seperation between the sexes in their trains. Separation in over-crowded buses is nothing but common sense, to prevent very serious problems Halachically, socially and publically that can happen in public places.
Also, why did you never wage Jihad against separation in most of the public events held both by Haredim and religious nationalists?
:laugh: I don't "wage Jihad" as you put it. And my points were mostly on the subject of the school situation in Beit Shemesh.
( I know Haaretz, but still its from Rav Melamed)
http://www.haaretz.com/news/national/top-israeli-rabbi-gender-segregated-buses-go-against-jewish-law-1.404200
"Melamed also stated that gender segregation is appropriate only during when performing “public acts”, and said that riding the bus is considered a “private act.” "
- Lastly I looked into this issue wayy before this even became a public issue of what it is now, and the Halacha given by Rav Bay-Hayim is that it is not needed.
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בס''ד
I'm really disappointed to see people here join the news media lynch against Charedim. Do you also want to join the mass demonstrations organized by Shimon Peres, the media and the feminazis? Demonstrations against "religious coersion" - as if that is the problem in Israel, when in reality there is constant anti-religious coersion and always has been. You decided to side with the media and the self-hating scum against religious Jews. You joined the anti-religious mob. I tried to warn you that this campaign against religious Jews is an attack on the Torah itself.
Whenever there is a massive organized media campaign in regard to religious faith or almost any other issue, it should be obvious what the objective is. I can't believe that anyone is stupid enough to think that the media is worried about the "rights" of Jewish girls. These Jewish girls should fear the media a million times more than the Charedim. And so should any Jew with an ounce of sanity.
You saw me confront Satmar with a video that has over 2500 views. But when the monstrous media is involved, I will never help these criminals stage a propaganda war against halacha and Torah.
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:laugh: I don't "wage Jihad" as you put it. And my points were mostly on the subject of the school situation in Beit Shemesh.
( I know Haaretz, but still its from Rav Melamed)
http://www.haaretz.com/news/national/top-israeli-rabbi-gender-segregated-buses-go-against-jewish-law-1.404200
"Melamed also stated that gender segregation is appropriate only during when performing “public acts”, and said that riding the bus is considered a “private act.” "
- Lastly I looked into this issue wayy before this even became a public issue of what it is now, and the Halacha given by Rav Bay-Hayim is that it is not needed.
בס''ד
The real issue is not separation on buses. The real issue is the media war against the Torah. Whether you agree or disagree with the Charedim on this issue is irrelevant. The Torah is under massive assault here by a mob of self-hating swine.
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Doesn't this prove that Chaim's assessment is completely correct?
No, because real incidents took place in Ramat Bet Shemesh, which I really hope he isn't trying to deny. It has gone on for months with these "sikrikim" and harrassing little school girls.
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בס''ד
BTW most of the rabbis in Israel will also condemn Tag Mechir and tell you that it is against Jewish law to fight back against the Erev Rav and their Arab Nazi allies.
Most of the rabbis in Israel also are against Kahanism, against resisting expulsions, against condemning Jewish traitors.
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בס''ד
I'm really disappointed to see people here join the news media lynch against Charedim.
Good grief, is this directed at me? Please tell me it isn't!
Chaim, are you denying that sikrikim have been harrassing little school girls in Ramat Bet Shemesh? And also that they took over the school that was being built and damaged the property because they didn't want it built there? Just because the media now jumped on this issue months later and made it into a circus does not make the real problem go away.
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Good grief, is this directed at me? Please tell me it isn't!
Chaim, are you denying that sikrikim have been harrassing little school girls in Ramat Bet Shemesh? And also that they took over the school that was being built and damaged the property because they didn't want it built there? Just because the media now jumped on this issue months later and made it into a circus does not make the real problem go away.
בס''ד
The claim that Charedim are "terrorizing" little girls in Israel is baloney. If there were some minor incidents this is nothing compared to what the media is doing right now. It is the media who is waging a war of terror against good Jews in Israel - literally a war of physical and spiritual terror. This war has been going on in Eretz Yisrael for over 100 years. For the media to become the big defenders of little girls is the worst obscenity imaginable. This is the same Erev Rav establishment that is responsible for the destruction of millions of Jewish souls, and this campaign is the latest chapter in their effort to discredit and ridicule Judaism.
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בס''ד
The claim that Charedim are "terrorizing" little girls in Israel is baloney. If there were some minor incidents this is nothing compared to what the media is doing right now. It is the media who is waging a war of terror against good Jews in Israel - literally a war of physical and spiritual terror. This war has been going on in Eretz Yisrael for over 100 years. For the media to become the big defenders of little girls is the worst obscenity imaginable. This is the same Erev Rav establishment that is responsible for the destruction of millions of Jewish souls, and this campaign is the latest chapter in their effort to discredit and ridicule Judaism.
I didn't claim haredim are. It is a faction of lunatics amidst charedim. It's not baloney! Just ask the traumatized kids and parents who had to escort them. This has gone on for months. You are either in complete denial or you just have no idea what is happening there with regards to the Orot school.
So if the media defends little girls, that now makes the little girls wrong and no longer victims? This is a serious problem and like I said, the media should burn in hell along with the "sikrikim" who are attacking people.
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בס''ד
Most of the rabbis in Israel also are against Kahanism, against resisting expulsions, against condemning Jewish traitors.
Just because they (the sikkarim) happen to be in the extremely small minority, doesn't make them correct in this matter and that we need to defend them.
And this issue is not about the Torah vs. the leftists/media. I don't know if you noticed by me at least, but I have also spoken precisely against the media using this to attack religious Jews, including the victims themselves and what they represent.
By making a clear distinction between these sikkarim and the greater religious community (including the Haredim) the issue is much easier to fight. In fact they want it to be Hiloni vs. Haredi battle in order to paint Torah Jews all in the camp of people who spitt at girls! as if its the Torah encouraging this.
I dont believe you read all my and Kahane-was-right-Bt's posts on this or didn't understand properly.
By not condemning them you-we are falling into the hands of the reformers who would love to get ride of Judaism all together and incite the public against it.
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Meanwhile I guess you are siding with UTJ by saying it's all just a media lynch, so since they agree with you does that make you wrong by default too? It seems there can never be complete disagreement with evil entities because sometimes even evil people report accurate facts. So you cannot say I'm discredited just because the media has come out swinging and exposed some facts and are using it for their own agendas. The facts aren't changed by that.
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Just to add my 2 cent opinion, I think my real concern is what is the motivation of the most fringe elements asserting these new rules. What is their Mesorah (i.e., source in Jewish law)? If there is a genuine Mesorah then so be it. If this is just a frenzy to see who can be "frumer" (more religious) then the next (like the microbes in water which have absolutely no basis in Halachah), then this is Taliban like behavior. If these elements are so concerned, how far away are we from Nazirs? I seem to recall that during the time of the Beit Hamikdash, after the ceremony of the Azazzel where the red string turned white, men and women would meet and there would be many engagements (Keddushin and not Nissuin) resulting from such meetings. If the rules being implemented now were in place then, there would have been a Shidduch crises.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I5HKtaaws-g&feature=player_embedded
LOL watch this video including the guy in his car that gets interviewed where he "explains" why little girls are spit at. To deny this is happening is really delusional, even if the media rhetoric is insane. Go ahead and fast forward to 2:39 and listen to what he says.
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בס''ד
Again the issue is not whether one Charedi spit at someone. The issue is that you are helping the media campaign to discredit Judaism. Instead of condemning the media, you are condemning the Charedim. You are outraged over a Charedi Jew spitting at someone or other (mostly exaggerated) incidents. But you are not outraged over the media manipulating this issue to destroy the soul of the Jewish people. The media is using you.
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KWRBT and others, I think it is obvious that if the NWO is hyping an "incident" that it is likely to be either a complete lie or grossly exaggerated. I already used the example that the NWO is also constantly telling us that "fanatical settlers" are harassing and tormenting Arabs. Is that true? Should we believe that innocent Arabs are being picked on by "radical" Jews?
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I5HKtaaws-g&feature=player_embedded
LOL watch this video including the guy in his car that gets interviewed where he "explains" why little girls are spit at. To deny this is happening is really delusional, even if the media rhetoric is insane. Go ahead and fast forward to 2:39 and listen to what he says.
בס''ד
This is a perfect example of what I'm talking about. The Channel 2 Judenrat found a Charedi Jew who says stupid things. They use his comments to smear religious Jews and you are outraged at the Charedim instead of the media. In other words, you fell for this. This is the oldest trick in the world.
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Whenever there is a massive organized media campaign in regard to religious faith or almost any other issue, it should be obvious what the objective is. I can't believe that anyone is stupid enough to think that the media is worried about the "rights" of Jewish girls. These Jewish girls should fear the media a million times more than the Charedim. And so should any Jew with an ounce of sanity.
In this case it seemed to be one of the parents making the video not the media... I am sure most of our members know what the media in Israel is capable of... In my opinion the situation is one that should not be allowed to continue... Heckling little children coming out of school is a no win situation... Little children grow up to be adults and I am sure that they will remember the treatment they received from some of the Charedim.
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As representatives of Hakadosh Barachu, we will be held to the highest of standards by our enemies. Unfortunately, one rotten apple can spoil the barrel. I have no sympathies for the self-hating jewish media in Israel and pray for their destruction. My main concern here is that we do everything possible to avoid desecrating Hashem's name.
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KWRBT and others, I think it is obvious that if the NWO is hyping an "incident" that it is likely to be either a complete lie or grossly exaggerated. I already used the example that the NWO is also constantly telling us that "fanatical settlers" are harassing and tormenting Arabs. Is that true? Should we believe that innocent Arabs are being picked on by "radical" Jews?
בס''ד
Exactly! You get it. You explained it better than me.
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בס''ד
Again the issue is not whether one Charedi spit at someone. The issue is that you are helping the media campaign to discredit Judaism. Instead of condemning the media, you are condemning the Charedim. You are outraged over a Charedi Jew spitting at someone or other (mostly exaggerated) incidents. But you are not outraged over the media manipulating this issue to destroy the soul of the Jewish people. The media is using you.
You are misrepresenting me and spreading evil slander about me. I am condemning the media. did you even read what I wrote? I said the media can go to hell with the sikrikim.
On facebook I argued with some lady there for hours defending haredim against her attacks because she was trying to pin all of this on all haredim. And then you say this to me?
You unfortunately fail to recognize the seeds of our destruction which are planted right in bet Shemesh. It is a small faction of haredim going to war against the national religious. So you are going to be part of the "silent majority" that allows it to fester for fear of what the goyim will say, or fear of what the media nazis will say? For shame!
And again, you are minimizing the incidents. On a daily basis young girls were harrassed on their way home from school by a faction of sikrikim. There is really nothing to minimize about that.
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Where is Chaim slandering you dude? You assumed that he was talking about you even though he was very general and named nobody. You took it to be a personal attack and confronted him.
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KWRBT and others, I think it is obvious that if the NWO is hyping an "incident" that it is likely to be either a complete lie or grossly exaggerated.
How many times have we been through this?
No, it is not a fabrication. Just because evil people are reporting it and trying to twist it to their ends does not make it untrue if something really happened. In this case, these things really did happen. The little girls from Orot school are harrassed on a regular basis. You can see some people in the video that I just posted who try to justify what is being done to the girls. So it is clear that some people, however small in number they may be, are actively doing it.
What is fabricated by the media is that this is a women's rights story or that this is a big danger to other Israeli cities about to engulf them like a big scary monster. It's not about women's rights at all! The media lies. It's about protecting people from harrassment.
It is truly delusional to think that just because the media picked up on something, it therefore must be a lie.
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בס''ד
This is a perfect example of what I'm talking about. The Channel 2 Judenrat found a Charedi Jew who says stupid things. They use his comments to smear religious Jews and you are outraged at the Charedim instead of the media. In other words, you fell for this. This is the oldest trick in the world.
How is it a smear of haredi Jews? That guy, and his friends who think like him are involved in harrassing little school girls. And they think these girls deserve it because they are dati leumi, rather than haredi. If you defend that, you have a really warped moral compass.
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Where is Chaim slandering you dude? You assumed that he was talking about you even though he was very general and named nobody. You took it to be a personal attack and confronted him.
"you are helping the media campaign to discredit Judaism. Instead of condemning the media, you are condemning the Charedim."
False and evil talk. I am not condemning charedim. And I am not helping any media campaign.
"you are not outraged over the media manipulating this issue to destroy the soul of the Jewish people. "
More false and evil accusations.
What exactly are you reading that you didn't catch that?
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Just to add my 2 cent opinion, I think my real concern is what is the motivation of the most fringe elements asserting these new rules. What is their Mesorah (i.e., source in Jewish law)? If there is a genuine Mesorah then so be it. If this is just a frenzy to see who can be "frumer" (more religious) then the next (like the microbes in water which have absolutely no basis in Halachah), then this is Taliban like behavior. If these elements are so concerned, how far away are we from Nazirs? I seem to recall that during the time of the Beit Hamikdash, after the ceremony of the Azazzel where the red string turned white, men and women would meet and there would be many engagements (Keddushin and not Nissuin) resulting from such meetings. If the rules being implemented now were in place then, there would have been a Shidduch crises.
I suspect you are referring to the celebration known as Tu B'av, the 15th of Av.... Which is a celebration:
http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/53680/jewish/15th-of-Av.htm
The 15th of Av is undoubtedly the most mysterious day of the Jewish calendar. A search of the Shulchan Aruch (“Code of Jewish Law”) reveals no observances or customs for this date, except for the instruction that the tachanun (confession of sins) and similar portions should be omitted from the daily prayers (as is the case with all festive dates), and that beginning on the 15th of Av one should increase one’s study of Torah, since at this time of the year the nights begin to grow longer, and “the night was created for study.” And the Talmud tells us that many years ago the “daughters of Jerusalem would go dance in the vineyards” on the 15th of Av, and “whoever did not have a wife would go there” to find himself a bride.
And this is the day which the Talmud considers the greatest festival of the year, with Yom Kippur (!) a close second!
Indeed, the 15th of Av cannot but be a mystery. As the “full moon” of the tragic month of Av, it is the festival of the Future Redemption, and thus a day whose essence, by definition, is unknowable to our unredeemed selves.
Yet also the unknowable is ours to seek and explore, as we shall in the essays, based on the Lubavitcher Rebbe’s writings and talks, presented here.
See also : http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/53684/jewish/The-Dancing-Maidens-of-Jerusalem.htm
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OK let me use an example from outside of Israel. Does Westboro Baptist Church (Fred Phelps' sick cult) actually exist? Yes. Do they actually protest military funerals and praise terrorists? Yes. Is what they do commonplace? Absolutely not. It is one tiny cult made up of the inbred members of it's sick leader's family. The US branch of the NWO media loves to saturate us with stories of WBC and paints them as representative of fundamentalist evangelical Christianity. Whenever they cover WBC they always frame them as being "extremist Christians" or "fundamentalists" or "fanatical evangelicals". Are they? More than 999 out of a thousand devout evangelicals have and want absolutely nothing to do with any of what WBC stands for, and yet the petromedia is constantly portraying them as a major part of American conservative Christianity.
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Chaim, honestly I thought you would have said and perhaps made a video showing the true side of Torah-Judaism and that instead of rewarding, you would effectively deal with these types of people the proper Jewish way. It would definitely even alleviate the tensions that some mistakenly think of the Torah and Judaism.
Some people are concerned that as Torah and the religious spread their will be a Taliban like culture. Instead of saying this is no big deal, the best thing would be to condemn them and assure Israel's future under the Torah-Religious community would combat all forms of injustices.
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"you are helping the media campaign to discredit Judaism. Instead of condemning the media, you are condemning the Charedim."
False and evil talk. I am not condemning charedim. And I am not helping any media campaign.
"you are not outraged over the media manipulating this issue to destroy the soul of the Jewish people. "
More false and evil accusations.
What exactly are you reading that you didn't catch that?
KWRBT,
I think you are getting too personally involved in this issue. Chaim has a point... You have a point. We need to work together to gain better understanding. I don't think Chaim was intentionally referring to you...
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OK let me use an example from outside of Israel. Does Westboro Baptist Church (Fred Phelps' sick cult) actually exist? Yes. Do they actually protest military funerals and praise terrorists? Yes. Is what they do commonplace? Absolutely not. It is one tiny cult made up of the inbred members of it's sick leader's family. The US branch of the NWO media loves to saturate us with stories of WBC and paints them as representative of fundamentalist evangelical Christianity. Whenever they cover WBC they always frame them as being "extremist Christians" or "fundamentalists" or "fanatical evangelicals". Are they? More than 999 out of a thousand devout evangelicals have and want absolutely nothing to do with any of what WBC stands for, and yet the petromedia is constantly portraying them as a major part of American conservative Christianity.
There is a school called Orot where the little girls are harrassed on a regular basis. It's a real problem, and what is being done to stop it? Denying it happens or encouraging the offenders, does not solve the problem. That does not stop it, that makes it worse. The criminals doing the spitting and cursing would fit in well with westboro baptist church. I never EVER said that the criminals doing this are representative of charedim, in fact I stressed the opposite.
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KWRBT,
I think you are getting too personally involved in this issue. Chaim has a point... You have a point. We need to work together to gain better understanding. I don't think Chaim was intentionally referring to you...
Oh, so the accusations against me which I quoted were not personal? Only my response was personal? How typical.
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This was Chaim's first post here today:
http://jtf.org/forum/index.php/topic,58997.msg530905.html#msg530905
As you can see here he is being exceptionally general and referring to everybody.
Then you took it personally and confronted Chaim:
http://jtf.org/forum/index.php/topic,58997.msg530910.html#msg530910
Right about now I'm really disappointed in you.
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There is a school called Orot where the little girls are harrassed on a regular basis. It's a real problem, and what is being done to stop it? Denying it happens or encouraging the offenders, does not solve the problem. That does not stop it, that makes it worse. The criminals doing the spitting and cursing would fit in well with westboro baptist church. I never EVER said that the criminals doing this are representative of charedim, in fact I stressed the opposite.
You are correct it is wrong for them to do this.... But the issue is that the media has latched onto this as a wedge issue... Who do we support more? Jews who have a wrong understanding, or the media which is trying to pull the rug out from under Judaism? I will fight against the media and work to educate those who believe incorrectly....
Please don't let this issue divide us so badly...
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You are correct it is wrong for them to do this.... But the issue is that the media has latched onto this as a wedge issue... Who do we support more? Jews who have a wrong understanding, or the media which is trying to pull the rug out from under Judaism? I will fight against the media and work to educate those who believe incorrectly....
Please don't let this issue divide us so badly...
Ummm BOTH! (meaning fight against not support).
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This was Chaim's first post here today:
http://jtf.org/forum/index.php/topic,58997.msg530905.html#msg530905
As you can see here he is being exceptionally general and referring to everybody.
Then you took it personally and confronted Chaim:
http://jtf.org/forum/index.php/topic,58997.msg530910.html#msg530910
Right about now I'm really disappointed in you.
Confronted Chaim, by asking him a question? Why am I not allowed to ask Chaim a direct question on the forum? This is news to me.
I asked him directly to address a certain matter and for his opinion. That is not a "confrontation"
Saying that I smear charedim or that I help the media war is certainly confrontational, not to mention inaccurate.
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There is a school called Orot where the little girls are harrassed on a regular basis. It's a real problem, and what is being done to stop it? Denying it happens or encouraging the offenders, does not solve the problem. That does not stop it, that makes it worse. The criminals doing the spitting and cursing would fit in well with westboro baptist church. I never EVER said that the criminals doing this are representative of charedim, in fact I stressed the opposite.
I'm not sure what you expect to be done about it. People have tried to stop the WBC cult in America too and unfortunately they have the legal "right" to do what they do. I assume that the same here applies to this tiny fraction of belligerent Charedim. Do American Christians really need to invest effort into fighting WBC and giving them any more publicity? Is it not obvious that they are a miniscule number of mental patients that the G-d-hating media is attempting to associate all Christians with?
PS you asked Chaim if he was talking to you in a testy manner. You had no reason to do that. He was being very nonspecific.
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Ummm BOTH! (meaning fight against not support).
Is there no room for Ahavat Yisroel... Even though they have done wrong they are still Jews who claim to want to uphold the Torah. I share more in common with them than the leftist anti-religious media which is using this issue... I will push away with my left hand, and pull close with my right...
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Is there no room for Ahavat Yisroel... Even though they have done wrong they are still Jews who claim to want to uphold the Torah. I share more in common with them than the leftist anti-religious media which is using this issue... I will push away with my left hand, and pull close with my right...
You share in common with those who spit on dati school children, gee that makes a lot of sense.
Or are you again obfuscating the issue by speaking about haredim in general, even though it seems like you are speaking about a small group of criminals in bet shemesh who have done some very bad things? Let's start having some ahavat yisrael by not mixing up the issues and by not labelling haredim with what some thugs have done in bet shemesh. How's that for starters.
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I'm not sure what you expect to be done about it. People have tried to stop the WBC cult in America too and unfortunately they have the legal "right" to do what they do. I assume that the same here applies to this tiny fraction of belligerent Charedim. Do American Christians really need to invest effort into fighting WBC and giving them any more publicity? Is it not obvious that they are a miniscule number of mental patients that the G-d-hating media is attempting to associate all Christians with?
PS you asked Chaim if he was talking to you in a testy manner. You had no reason to do that. He was being very nonspecific.
In a testy manner? He made a general statement about "people in the thread" in general, so I simply asked if he's referring to me, and I really hoped he wasn't because I never intended to do what he was describing. That's why I wanted to ask that question because God forbid I would do the things he was saying people are doing in this thread (or to be accused of that). Certainly not a confrontation to ask if he is referring to things I'm saying.
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You share in common with those who spit on dati school children, gee that makes a lot of sense.
Or are you again obfuscating the issue by speaking about haredim in general, even though it seems like you are speaking about a small group of criminals in bet shemesh who have done some very bad things? Let's start having some ahavat yisrael by not mixing up the issues and by not labelling haredim with what some thugs have done in bet shemesh. How's that for starters.
Listen... While the original incident originally involved these 'extremists' the issue has become a generic one of Jewish values versus modern 'values'.... Eventually we will have to take sides. I am with Chaim on this that while we must distance ourselves from those who perpetrated this event, we must clearly say that the Torah is our rock...
Let me ask you this KWRBT.... If you had your way here how would you handle this issue? I am open to listening to solutions to this conflict...
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Chaim never said he sided with spitting on girls. You are imagining that completely. As it stands I don't know exactly what happened (in the original incident) and my guess is that neither do you. I find it very hard to believe that there is an organized group of religious Jews that sets out to spit on girls. Can you show me an impartial and real news source (meaning not Whoretz or Ynet or any international news report) that documents what exactly took place?
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Listen... While the original incident originally involved these 'extremists' the issue has become a generic one of Jewish values versus modern 'values'.... Eventually we will have to take sides. I am with Chaim on this that while we must distance ourselves from those who perpetrated this event, we must clearly say that the Torah is our rock...
Let me ask you this KWRBT.... If you had your way here how would you handle this issue? I am open to listening to solutions to this conflict...
I would make it very clear that people who are doing these things in the name of Torah are wrong, the Torah does not support their behavior, and they should be condemned, and they are giving a bad name to the rest of religious Jews (haredim especially) who are NOT LIKE THEM. It almost sounds like as a way to combat the media, these criminals are being excused for what they did. That makes the smear of charedim even worse IMO and THAT is what plays into the media's hands because it's not stating clearly that haredim are not behind this behavior and are actually against it.
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Chaim never said he sided with spitting on girls. You are imagining that completely. As it stands I don't know exactly what happened (in the original incident) and my guess is that neither do you. I find it very hard to believe that there is an organized group of religious Jews that sets out to spit on girls. Can you show me an impartial and real news source (meaning not Whoretz or Ynet or any international news report) that documents what exactly took place?
There is no such thing as an "impartial and real news source." I know people in ramat bet shemesh. I have seen reports in the past before this week and before the news blew this up.
And a person would have to be really delusional to deny what is happening with regards to Orot. Don't believe me? So go visit Ramat Bet Shemesh and view it for yourself. Other than that there is no way to "prove" it to you just like I cannot "prove" to you the world is round if you will automatically disbelieve any of the evidence.
In all the reflex reaction to defend "haredim" it seems the real issue is lost. What is going to be done to clean up the actual problem. I did not say "Chaim sided with spitting on girls." I am saying that in some way by rushing to deny any of it ever happened or to minimize what happened, it is harmful to the victims and strengthens the assailants who the leadership in RBS already cannot control.
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Listen... While the original incident originally involved these 'extremists' the issue has become a generic one of Jewish values versus modern 'values'.... Eventually we will have to take sides.
:laugh: :'(
I do not know if to laugh or to cry.
What you are saying plays into the hands of the leftists exactly. You could not have made a better argument for them to fight against Judaism. Its us vs. them, Jewish values versus modern 'values', people who spitt at Jewish girls and scream whore vs. the secular culture. Come and pick which side you want to be part of?
Do we really want to put the debate and choice in this format?
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:laugh: :'(
I do not know if to laugh or to cry.
What you are saying plays into the hands of the leftists exactly. You could not have made a better argument for them to fight against Judaism. Its us vs. them, Jewish values versus modern 'values', people who spitt at Jewish girls and scream whore vs. the secular culture. Come and pick which side you want to be part of?
Do we really want to put the debate and choice in this format?
I am not the one who has done this.... The media has been covered with this story for almost a week. I have agreed with Tag & KWRBT about the basics. That is is wrong for these extremists to do this. There is not a question. But the irreligious media has made this into a bigger issue. I do not defend those who do things in the name of Torah which destroy Judaism. This is not the question in my mind.
The question is that now that this has happened how do we maintain cohesiveness within the religious Jewish people? I am sure that this issue will be used by the left for years to come. My point is that it is best to be on the side of Torah, and the Jewish people who support the morality of the Torah. The issue of extremism within this community must be addressed but it is only one small community with a few dozen involved with the incident.
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בס''ד
KWRBT, why are you reacting like that? I wasn't speaking specifically about you. I was speaking about the comments here in general. I saw comments calling the Charedim parasites who don't work, who don't serve in the army and who are anti-Zionist. I am not going to be silent in the face of such lies. I also did say that you are being used by the media. You respond by repeatedly accusing me of "evil talk".
I do not believe the media version of this story. The videos that have been created are also unpersuasive. Most of the videos were created by people with an agenda. The spokesmen for the Charedim deny the media version and claim that the media stories are lies and/or exaggerations. Since I know the evil Israeli media, I believe the Charedim.
I also know that Charedim live side by side with non-Charedim all over Israel and that the Charedim are good neighbors. If there were some incidents, I do believe that they were carried out by a small unrepresentative minority. There is no doubt that the media and the establishment are deliberately trying to blow this out of proportion and grossly exaggerate in order to smear Torah Jews.
Therefore the appropriate reaction is to condemn the media anti-Semites first and foremost. To turn this into a gigantic national scandal is absurd. It is the media smear campaign here that constitutes a national scandal.
This is exactly what the media does to Jewish settlers in Judea and Samaria, to the Kahanists and to all good Jews.
In the video which KWRBT brought in this thread, the Channel 2 "reporter" immediately turns the story into one about "religious coersion" and "what awaits us all over Israel (if the religious take over)". I see the anti-religious reaction of ordinary Israelis - the media campaign is working. I see rabbis and religious "leaders" reacting exactly the way KWRBT and TMT are telling us to react: by insisting that this is not Torah Judaism and by condemning the "extremists". KWRBT and TMT, your method obviously doesn't work - that's what the rabbis and the religious leaders have been doing for days now. The result is that Israelis are turning against "oppressive religion" and against "turning Israel into another Iran". The better reaction would be to immediately condemn the media anti-Semites and make it clear that that is the real story here.
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בס''ד
I'm really disappointed to see people here join the news media lynch against Charedim. Do you also want to join the mass demonstrations organized by Shimon Peres, the media and the feminazis? Demonstrations against "religious coersion" - as if that is the problem in Israel, when in reality there is constant anti-religious coersion and always has been. You decided to side with the media and the self-hating scum against religious Jews. You joined the anti-religious mob. I tried to warn you that this campaign against religious Jews is an attack on the Torah itself.
Whenever there is a massive organized media campaign in regard to religious faith or almost any other issue, it should be obvious what the objective is. I can't believe that anyone is stupid enough to think that the media is worried about the "rights" of Jewish girls. These Jewish girls should fear the media a million times more than the Charedim. And so should any Jew with an ounce of sanity.
You saw me confront Satmar with a video that has over 2500 views. But when the monstrous media is involved, I will never help these criminals stage a propaganda war against halacha and Torah.
Nobody here is supporting the media or the peressite. To be truthful we are not condoning the behavior of that particular sect of charedi Jews. And we agree with you that the media has ulterior motives that we condemn.
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בס''ד
rabbis and religious "leaders" reacting exactly the way KWRBT and TMT are telling us to react: by insisting that this is not Torah Judaism and by condemning the "extremists". KWRBT and TMT, your method obviously doesn't work - that's what the rabbis and the religious leaders have been doing for days now.
I disagree entirely. You said in your own comment that the haredi spokesmen have said the media is blowing it out of proportion or making it up. So the response has been one like yours, not like I or tmt. Its actually the typical reaction I have come to expect from the Jonathan Rosenblum types. And that IMO breeds more hatred of religion, than if they would just condemn what evil is actually taking place, saying how un-haredi it is, in addition to condemning the media.
I would like to see the ashkenazi haredi leadership give their clear stance on the issues for once, which they seem to never do.
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I disagree entirely. You said in your own comment that the haredi spokesmen have said the media is blowing it out of proportion or making it up. So the response has been one like yours, not like I or tmt. Its actually the typical reaction I have come to expect from the Jonathan Rosenblum types. And that IMO breeds more hatred of religion, than if they would just condemn what evil is actually taking place, saying how un-haredi it is, in addition to condemning the media.
I would like to see the ashkenazi haredi leadership give their clear stance on the issues for once, which they seem to never do.
בס''ד
I am not talking about the Charedi leaders. I am talking about the religious "Zionists" - the rabbis and the ordinary Jews being interviewed immediately condemn and immediately say this is not true Judaism. Even in the videos that were brought to this thread, "religious" Jews immediately start condemning and falling into the media trap. It doesn't work. This is what the media wants. And even the Charedi leaders who say these are lies and exaggerations, do not attack the media. It is long overdue to start a campaign against the evil media. The evil media and the evil establishment are the problem.
What you advocate saying is already being repeated over and over again even in the videos that were shown here. On the news programs, the media airs these condemnations even more.
No one is saying what I advocate saying.
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בס''ד
KWRBT, why are you reacting like that? I wasn't speaking specifically about you. I was speaking about the comments here in general. I saw comments calling the Charedim parasites who don't work, who don't serve in the army and who are anti-Zionist. I am not going to be silent in the face of such lies. I also did say that you are being used by the media. You respond by repeatedly accusing me of "evil talk".
I do not believe the media version of this story. The videos that have been created are also unpersuasive. Most of the videos were created by people with an agenda. The spokesmen for the Charedim deny the media version and claim that the media stories are lies and/or exaggerations. Since I know the evil Israeli media, I believe the Charedim.
I also know that Charedim live side by side with non-Charedim all over Israel and that the Charedim are good neighbors. If there were some incidents, I do believe that they were carried out by a small unrepresentative minority. There is no doubt that the media and the establishment are deliberately trying to blow this out of proportion and grossly exaggerate in order to smear Torah Jews.
Therefore the appropriate reaction is to condemn the media anti-Semites first and foremost. To turn this into a gigantic national scandal is absurd. It is the media smear campaign here that constitutes a national scandal.
This is exactly what the media does to Jewish settlers in Judea and Samaria, to the Kahanists and to all good Jews.
In the video which KWRBT brought in this thread, the Channel 2 "reporter" immediately turns the story into one about "religious coersion" and "what awaits us all over Israel (if the religious take over)". I see the anti-religious reaction of ordinary Israelis - the media campaign is working. I see rabbis and religious "leaders" reacting exactly the way KWRBT and TMT are telling us to react: by insisting that this is not Torah Judaism and by condemning the "extremists". KWRBT and TMT, your method obviously doesn't work - that's what the rabbis and the religious leaders have been doing for days now. The result is that Israelis are turning against "oppressive religion" and against "turning Israel into another Iran". The better reaction would be to immediately condemn the media anti-Semites and make it clear that that is the real story here.
Couldn't have put it better myself. This is a satanic worldwide campaign being orchestrated to brainwash the moronic people of Israel even more than they already are by demonizing religious people with values.
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בס''ד
I am not talking about the Charedi leaders. I am talking about the religious "Zionists" - the rabbis and the ordinary Jews being interviewed immediately condemn and immediately say this is not true Judaism.
But this has been said and going on before the media said anything about this.
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בס''ד
Here is a secular Jewess spitting on a Charedi Jew for no reason. I can assure you that secular attacks on the Charedim take place far more frequently than the opposite. Are the media going to do hysterical news stories about this attack on the Charedim? Will there be mass demonstrations against these secular Jew-haters? Will members of our own forum open numerous threads and write hundreds of posts talking about how terrible this is?
http://jtf.org/forum/index.php/topic,59039.new.html#new
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You call that monstrously ugly witch a "woman"? Get real Chaim, an Arab/hyena hybrid looks more feminine than that worn-out hooker.
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CHIEF RABBI OF ISRAEL ON HAREDI VIOLENCE ON TALKLINE TONIGHT Zev Brenner Show
Date: Wednesday, December 28, 2011 4:03 PM
CHIEF RABBI OF ISRAEL
RABBI YONAH METZGER
“ HAREDI VIOLENCE IN BEIT SHEMESH”
ON
TALKLINE WITH ZEV BRENNER,
Wed Dec 28
9 PM - 10 PM ET
WSNR 620 AM METRO NY,
www.talklinecommunications.com
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Btw, here is an article worth reading, and I'm including an excerpt which has a message from the principal of Orot.
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/151164
An Educator's Response: the School Principal
Meanwhile, the principal of the Orot girls’ school has called for mutual toleration of different lifestyles and for focusing on the practical need for law enforcement services to protect the students from extremists.
In a letter she sent to the school’s staff and to the parents of the students and which was obtained by Arutz Sheva, the principal, Perahia Nahmani, wrote:
“In my humble opinion, we should focus this struggle on our uncompromising demands that the authorities provide total security to our children and any other citizens who suffer from the violence of the extremists.
“If we stay focused and target this struggle only against those who support any kind of violence we will gain the support even of the moderate elements in the hareidi community, as we have seen happening in the last few days,” she added.
“I believe that we should avoid interfering in the way of life of our ultra-Orthodox neighbors, and dictate to them which signs they may or may not hang in the inner streets of their neighborhoods,” Nahmani emphasized. “Lastly, but of utmost importance to me, is that we should not take part in the wave of hostility towards the hareidi community as a whole.”
Nahmani noted that “we have much in common with the hareidi world, in many issues we have more in common with them than we do with some of those who have volunteered to stand by our side today, but who do not always understand the reasons for our insisting on separating boys and girls in the school system and in activities such as swimming and physical education classes.”
The principal's words summed up the inherent contradictions in the media hype: the hareidim in Beit Shemesh feel the school is not stringent enough for them, but secular columnists have written that the school is as ''bad' as the hareidim - after all, it separates males and females, just like the hareidi buses and the minyan on the commuter train. The secular do not want hareidim involved in their lifestyle, but feel free to criticize religious Zionist and hareidi lifestyles. They do not want crime labelled as "secular" when committed by the non-observant but brand the entire hareidi community for the acts of a violent group.
There is, however, one subject on which there is consensus: the violence in Beit Shemesh must be stopped by those in charge of law and order.
End quote.
I agree with the article that what is important here is protecting the children from harm and getting rebels under control. Likewise, people from other places and politicians have no business being there talking about "exclusion of women" or other nonsense.
Also one thing I have not mentioned up to this point is that much of the problem can be blamed on the police because they have not done enough to protect the children and clean up the streets.
But that I think is reflected in the comments by the principal.
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She (a National-Religious mother living there) explains it well.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=doh7R48KekY
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בס''ד
Here is a secular Jewess spitting on a Charedi Jew for no reason. I can assure you that secular attacks on the Charedim take place far more frequently than the opposite. Are the media going to do hysterical news stories about this attack on the Charedim? Will there be mass demonstrations against these secular Jew-haters? Will members of our own forum open numerous threads and write hundreds of posts talking about how terrible this is?
http://jtf.org/forum/index.php/topic,59039.new.html#new
Nobody should be spitting on anybody
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CHIEF RABBI OF ISRAEL ON HAREDI VIOLENCE ON TALKLINE TONIGHT Zev Brenner Show
Date: Wednesday, December 28, 2011 4:03 PM
CHIEF RABBI OF ISRAEL
RABBI YONAH METZGER
“ HAREDI VIOLENCE IN BEIT SHEMESH”
ON
TALKLINE WITH ZEV BRENNER,
Wed Dec 28
9 PM - 10 PM ET
WSNR 620 AM METRO NY,
www.talklinecommunications.com
Chaim has said before Zev Brenner is an anti-Kahanist leftist.
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It's definitely possible that the police have been purposely letting this problem fester for months in order to use it against religious Jews. That's not such a far out conspiracy IMO, that they had instructions from the top (in the israeli govt) to let the criminals do their damages so that the media could come in and pounce on it to the detriment of everyone.
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It's definitely possible that the police have been purposely letting this problem fester for months in order to use it against religious Jews. That's not such a far out conspiracy IMO, that they had instructions from the top (in the israeli govt) to let the criminals do their damages so that the media could come in and pounce on it to the detriment of everyone.
I agree, I believe elections are coming up.
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There is a school called Orot where the little girls are harrassed on a regular basis. It's a real problem, and what is being done to stop it? Denying it happens or encouraging the offenders, does not solve the problem. That does not stop it, that makes it worse. The criminals doing the spitting and cursing would fit in well with westboro baptist church. I never EVER said that the criminals doing this are representative of charedim, in fact I stressed the opposite.
So how do you deal with such problem ? You can place a police patrol near the school. You can place a security camera. Get the jerk who spits on little girls caught and put him in jail. You can counter attack and heckle the offenders near their places. You know these Sikarim are not exactly armed and dangerous. They behave like thugs but in fact are pretty wimpish, and their victims are not helpless sheep and they do have the law on their side.
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:laugh: I don't "wage Jihad" as you put it. And my points were mostly on the subject of the school situation in Beit Shemesh.
( I know Haaretz, but still its from Rav Melamed)
http://www.haaretz.com/news/national/top-israeli-rabbi-gender-segregated-buses-go-against-jewish-law-1.404200
"Melamed also stated that gender segregation is appropriate only during when performing “public acts”, and said that riding the bus is considered a “private act.” "
- Lastly I looked into this issue wayy before this even became a public issue of what it is now, and the Halacha given by Rav Bay-Hayim is that it is not needed.
So this is all you have? an Erev Rav clown who invites missionaries to Samaria and is a personal friend of their leader?
http://jewishisrael.ning.com/profiles/blogs/the-waller-family-making
http://www.yeshiva.org.il/midrash/shiur.asp?id=17125
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So this is all you have? an Erev Rav clown who invites missionaries to Samaria and is a personal friend of their leader?
http://jewishisrael.ning.com/profiles/blogs/the-waller-family-making
http://www.yeshiva.org.il/midrash/shiur.asp?id=17125
However, that point does not really matter because there are plenty of rabbis aside from Rabbi Melamed who do not consider separate seating on buses to be a requirement. Some people want that, and that's ok. But it's clearly wrong to say this is required upon everyone. Show me any great poskim of earlier generations who said this about buses! The bus separation issue is reformism cloaking itself as traditionalism IMO.
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Rabbi Moshe Feinstein, who most Charedim accept as the rabbi who was on the top of their list of Halachic authorities during the previous generation stated that it is even permissible for men and women to travel on the subway during rush hour to get to work, even though there is a high probability that men and women will against their will, touch the opposite gender, when the train is crammed up with people.
See Even Haezer section 2 siman 14 of Igrote Moshe.
I bring this up, since the news stories about, certain Charedi activists demanding gender separation on buses, might confuse people on what are the basic demands of Judaism.
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Rabbi Moshe Feinstein, who most Charedim accept as the rabbi who was on the top of their list of Halachic authorities during the previous generation stated that it is even permissible for men and women to travel on the subway during rush hour to get to work, even though there is a high probability that men and women will against their will, touch the opposite gender, when the train is crammed up with people.
See Even Haezer section 2 siman 14 of Igrote Moshe.
I bring this up, since the news stories about, certain Charedi activists demanding gender separation on buses, might confuse people on what are the basic demands of Judaism.
Do you have a link on the internet of this sefer?
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Do you have a link on the internet of this sefer?
Might be at hebrewbooks.org They have a lot of hebrew sefarim, I would give that a try, unless edu has an actual link to it somewhere.
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Might be at hebrewbooks.org They have a lot of hebrew sefarim, I would give that a try, unless edu has an actual link to it somewhere.
Well... I checked out the site but since my Lashon HaKodesh is so bad I find it hard to find the sefer I am looking for. Also in order to read the text in the original Ivrit will pose a challenge.. But after browsing around it seems that they offer a lot of great sofrim...
Thank you..
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Yea thanks as well. (Just read some stuff there) they have books in English (and a section) as well (most of it seems Chabad though). But they have a goo book by R' Hirsch.
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After I posted the quote from Rabbi Moshe Feinstein, I saw that Rabbi Melamed raised the same issue in his editorial at http://www.israelnationalnews.com/Articles/Article.aspx/11057
Here is a quote from the first part of his article (in the second half he deals with the subject of how to react to women singers in the army)
Q: According to Jewish law, must there be separate public transportation and streets for men and women, or is it a 'hiddur mitzvah' (enhancement or meticulous observance beyond the formal demands of the law)?
A: Clearly, there is no obligation, and not one eminent Rabbi who dealt with halakhic questions rising from traveling on buses, claimed that it was an obligation (see 'Igrot Moshe', Yoreh Deah 2:14; Darchei Tahara 5:50). Therefore, the entire question is whether or not it is considered a 'hiddur mitzvah'.
The Difference between Requirement and 'Hiddur'
The difference between a mitzvah which one is required to fulfill and a 'hiddur mitzvah', is that a required mitzvah must be fulfilled even under difficult circumstances, and even when, seemingly, the results of its fulfillment will be problematic.
The famous example of this is what our Sages said concerning King Hizkiyahu, who refrained from fulfilling the mitzvah of 'puru u'rvu' (being fruitful and multiplying) because he saw in 'ruach ha'kodesh' (Divine inspiration) that he would beget evil children. The prophet Isaiah came to inform him that as a result of this sin, Hizkiyahu would die in this world, and not live in the World to Come.
Hizkiyahu repented, and was awarded an additional fifteen years of life, in which he had a son, Menashe, who indeed was the most evil of all Israel's kings (Tractate Berachot 10a). Seemingly, Hizkiyahu's first thought was correct; however, from the seed of the evil King Menashe, the ancestry of King David was continued, including many eminent leaders of Israel, until our righteous Mashiach, may he come speedily in our days. We must fulfill the mitzvot and not engage in cost-benefit calculations.
On the other hand, when it comes to a 'hiddur mitzvah', the reward incurred by its observance must be weighed against the loss likely to be suffered by its performance. At first glance, the 'hiddur' might seem beneficial, but in the future, damaging things can stem from it. This is what is known as the 'weighing of saintliness'.
The 'Weighing of Saintliness'
In his book "Misilat Yisharim" (chapter 20), Rabbi Moshe Chaim Luzzato (also known as the Ramchal) wrote that "weighing saintliness", that is deciding when that trait is inappropriate or suitable, is "an extremely fundamental process".
The episode of Gedaliah ben Achikam (Jeremiah 40:13), the leader appointed by the Babylonian conquerors to govern Judea after the Temple's destruction, provides a clear illustration of this fact. Because of his abundant saintliness, which would not permit him to judge his enemy Yishmael adversely, or which would not permit him to receive slander, he said to Yochanan ben Kareach, "You are speaking falsely of Yishmael."
In the end, Yishmael murdered Gedaliah, and all the people with him, and Israel's last hope of rebuilding Judea was extinguished. The Talmud (Tractate Nidah 61a) attributes the death of those men who were killed to the sin of Gedaliah's abundant saintliness.
It was also such incorrectly "weighed" saintliness in the incident of Bar Kamtza that was responsible for the destruction of the Temple. The Talmud (Tractate Gittin 56a) relates the story of Rabbi Zechariah ben Avkulos, who, even in a situation of national danger. 'pikuach nefesh', refused to sacrifice an imperfect animal for the Caesar, and thus caused the war which lead to the destruction of the Second Temple. It was to this that Rabbi Yochanan was referring when he said, "The humility of Rabbi Zechariah destroyed our Temple, consumed our Sanctuary and exiled us among the nations."
Rabbi Luzzato adds that if a certain custom of saintliness provokes laughter or ridicule, it should not be performed.
Segregating Buses and Streets is not Saintliness
Seemingly, from an aspect of modesty, segregating buses and streets is advantageous; however, its damage exceeds its benfits, for a number of reasons:
First, all issues of 'hiddur mitzvah' should be personal acts, for in halakhah there are clear definitions of what is required, what is optional,. When customs of 'hiddur' are turned into obligatory public decrees, such policies destroy the foundations of Torah and halakhah.
Secondly, when some people are negatively affected by the 'hiddur', the damage caused is immeasurably greater than any benefits. However, if a certain group of people want to organize private buses operated according to customs they have chosen to keep, this does not negatively affect anyone who is not a member of the group, for no one is forced to travel with them.
Thirdly, this type of policy harms proper family behavior.. According to these rules, a man cannot sit next to his wife, a father cannot sit next to his daughter, and a mother cannot sit next to her son. At public events, it is the custom of religious Jews to have separate seating for men and women; however, traveling on a bus is not considered a public act, but rather an individual act that each person does for himself.
Fourthly, when dealing with the laws of modesty, special care must be taken, for sometimes additional laws are liable to arouse more forbidden thoughts. If this is the case, one could claim that all the customs of modesty which the Sages decreed are liable to cause forbidden thoughts. However, there is a significant difference between the regulations of the Sages and what is invented by various personalities from hareidi circlest. In their regulations, the Sages were able to create a modest society with respectable distance between men and women, except for spouses, but they did not attempt to prevent informal encounters, whereas the new stringencies try to prevent them. Since it is impossible to prevent this, any informal encounter or glimpse of a woman will only give rise to unwanted urges.